Real-Time Feedback, Compensation, and the Truth About Employee Performance (With Jacob Chase)

Workforce Alchemy

Is your company rewarding job titles instead of actual value creation?  In this episode of The Mason Duchatschek Show, Mason talks with Jacob Chase, founder of The Infin, about why traditional performance reviews, salary bands, and top-down talent assessments can miss the employees who truly drive business results.  Jacob shares what he learned while leading a 150-person real estate services company, including the story of an accounts payable employee whose market-based salary failed to reflect his real impact. That experience led Jacob to rethink how leaders measure contribution, identify hidden performance issues, and align compensation with the value people actually create.  This conversation is especially valuable for CEOs, business owners, executives, HR leaders, managers, and team leaders who want better visibility into performance, employee engagement, retention, leadership accountability, and compensation strategy.  You’ll hear how real-time, decentralized feedback can help reveal high performers, toxic employees, underperforming managers, flight risks, hidden culture problems, and undervalued contributors before they become costly business issues.  What You’ll Learn -Why traditional performance reviews often miss real value creation -How compensation systems can undervalue high-impact employees -Why employee dependency may reveal more than job title or salary band -How peer-driven feedback can expose “spotlight performers” -Why toxic employees with institutional knowledge can damage retention -How underperforming managers can be identified earlier -Why sales metrics alone may not show the full impact of an employee -How real-time feedback can improve performance management -Why anonymity and trust matter when gathering employee feedback -What CEOs can do to better align people, performance, and compensation  Connect with Jacob Chase  Website: https://www.theinfin.com/  Connect with Mason Duchatschek  Website: https://masonduchatschek.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/masonduchatschek/  Connect with Workforce Alchemy  Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/ X / Twitter: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  #PerformanceManagement #EmployeeEngagement #EmployeeRetention #CompensationStrategy #TalentManagement #HRLeadership #BusinessLeadership #CEO #WorkforceAnalytics #CompanyCulture #LeadershipDevelopment #PayForPerformance #HumanResources #WorkforceAlchemy

Transcript

00:05Welcome to the Mason Ducatech show.

00:08This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy, helping leaders improve hiring, engagement

00:13and retention while uncovering people-related profit leaks hidden in everyday operations.

00:19Today's guest is Jacob Chase, founder of The Nfin, and that is a company rethinking how

00:26organizations measure and reward performance.

00:30After seeing firsthand how top performers were undervalued by traditional compensation

00:35systems, Jacob built a model that brings real-time visibility into who is actually creating value

00:43inside a business.

00:44He's here to break down how leaders can build smarter, fairer systems that truly align people

00:51with performance and growth.

00:53So happy to have you.

00:55Welcome to the show.

00:56Mason, it's a pleasure to be here.

00:57Thanks for having me.

00:58So what did you see at your last company that made you realize that traditional compensation

01:04and performance systems were fundamentally broken?

01:09Yeah.

01:09So a little bit of context, I was running a 150-person real estate services business.

01:15And as I'm leading this as my first kind of executive position, I'm seeing some things

01:19just kind of in our traditional HR program that just wasn't really answering some of the

01:24questions that I found important.

01:25And one of the real highlights was we had an accounts payable guy, a typical low-level staff

01:32member.

01:32Market said he was worth $55,000 a year in salary, but he was a total rock star.

01:38He was way above and beyond his job description, a huge kind of cultural torchbearer.

01:45People depended on him for all sorts of things like IT, vendor issues.

01:49He was the go-to guy, did everything with a smile.

01:52And it was really bugging me that I didn't have a way to really value his contribution

01:58and beyond kind of a salary band or a job market description.

02:03Because the things he was bringing was so much more valuable than what he was just typically

02:08assigned to do.

02:08And it really kind of set me down the rabbit hole of like, how do you actually measure

02:12that and figure it out?

02:13And ultimately, I think we come up with some pretty good solutions.

02:18So I guess I've had this conversation in the past with friends and peers about the difference

02:23between transactional employees and transformational ones.

02:27When an employer looks at a transactional employee, they look and say, what is the minimum cost I

02:32have to pay to get this work entailing these tasks accomplished correctly?

02:37And let's just say, I know an HR person that lost his role and was completely blindsided.

02:45And he was like, I didn't do anything wrong.

02:48I go, what did you do?

02:49Well, it was responsible for payroll.

02:51It was responsible for answering employee questions.

02:53I gave the employees the right answers on a timely basis.

02:56I've never made mistakes in payroll.

02:57I could explain employee benefits.

02:59And I knew what had happened.

03:02His employer looked and said, hey, we can have employee self-service on our website and they

03:06can get the answers to their own questions and we can outsource payroll.

03:10And all of a sudden, they started realizing they viewed this person as a cost, not an asset.

03:17But if that person had been maybe perhaps more instrumental in transformational work, like looking at cost of, and say,

03:27hey, you know, our labor is $10 million a year, but our employee engagement is only half.

03:32So, hey, if we can improve employee engagement by even 10%, that's a million dollars a year.

03:38Now, all of a sudden, it's, okay, this is a million dollar a year asset to our company because this

03:45person knows how to select the right people, engage them, and retain them in ways that other people didn't.

03:51So, like, I understand value beyond what range some computer program or some survey says it should be.

04:01So, that's why I'm really interested in learning more about your insights on this.

04:04So, how do you know when your highest performers are being undervalued, even if your company appears to be doing

04:10well on the surface?

04:12Yeah, I mean, the way that we kind of think about value is through dependency.

04:17It's like who actually depends on the contribution that you're making, and how does that actually translate into results of

04:26the organization?

04:27Because it's really only the sum total of everybody's contribution that kind of sets the size of the pie for

04:34the effectiveness of all of its participants.

04:37And, you know, when you set the size of the pie, you then have to kind of determine the size

04:42of each slice.

04:43And the only way to really determine the size of each slice is through mapping each person's dependencies on each

04:50other.

04:50And, you know, not just kind of the workflow context, but really the human interactions as well.

04:57Like, who's learning from somebody, who is just reliable, and has chosen to do certain things when there's equal options

05:04available.

05:04And those kind of things, they show up in kind of a dependency analysis in ways that I think give

05:10real credibility to the outcome of the data.

05:13And so, what does that look like?

05:16Because in my mind, I'm going to this pile of wire coat hangers all entangled with someone in the middle

05:21that's got all of this stuff.

05:22How do you go about tracking that and making sense of that without being overwhelmed?

05:27Yeah, look, I mean, so we looked to kind of other systems that do a good job of allocating value.

05:33And it's like, well, what are some of the properties of those?

05:35And the one that really sticks with me is the market system.

05:38It's like the stock market, right?

05:39Where the value is determined by a huge amalgamation of everybody's different perspectives.

05:46It's like, so in the stock market, you have your value investors and your index investors and your high-frequency

05:52traders and your short sellers.

05:53And all of these different perspectives of value actually culminate in the price at any given moment.

05:59But it's live and it's dynamic, but it's decentralized.

06:03And so, traditional assessment programs tend to be highly centralized and highly structured where you've got some person or a

06:11group of people determining, well, these are the criteria we think is important and this is the scale that we're

06:17going to rate them on.

06:18And that, by default, misses a lot of the important things that other people value with their interactions.

06:27And so, the way that you really kind of untangle it is everybody's got their perspective of who is contributing

06:34and you amalgamate all those perspectives.

06:36And that ultimately can kind of create an internal market system for the attribution of credit that can then be

06:42connected to the business results to really kind of calculate the size of each person's pie.

06:48Or each person's slight pie, yeah.

06:50What are the biggest mistakes that leaders make when trying to assess talent using maybe traditional review processes compared to

06:57yours?

06:58Well, I mean, I think I learned this lesson when I was really trying to value, you know, this accounts

07:04payable clerk.

07:05Where I didn't work with him regularly, but I knew his reputation and I knew his, you know, the value

07:11that he was bringing.

07:11And I realized that it wasn't just my perspective that matters.

07:16And it was really the perspective of everybody who worked with him that kind of brought forth his value to

07:23the organization.

07:24And so, I think, you know, one of the big mistakes or the big challenges that folks have is understanding

07:30that their centralized process, even though they control it,

07:35produces much weaker data than a decentralized process that is all-encompassing of all the different perspectives.

07:41And so, really changing that mindset, I think, is kind of core to unlocking the value that's already inherent in

07:48this information in the organization.

07:51So, you talk about changing mindsets.

07:53Can you maybe walk me through a real example where a company believed that they had strong alignment, but your

07:59approach revealed something very different?

08:02I think at my original organization, when we first built this pilot, or we first built a prototype and we're

08:09rolling it out, and we really thought everything was going great.

08:13And we thought, you know, the business is performing, you know, our turnover is low, people are happy, so to

08:21speak.

08:22And then you start to see it in the data, and it's like, well, wait, we have some manager problems

08:26out in the field.

08:28And we start to see information like, well, these people are probably flight risks based on working for a crappy

08:34boss and being underpaid relative to their value.

08:37And we start to see a whole bunch more kind of context around some of these things that are likely

08:43to come up based on everyone's perspective of each other rather than my perspective as CEO.

08:50And it really opened my eyes to the validity of incorporating everyone's perspective rather than just my own.

08:56That's a very mature and brave stance.

09:02I salute you for that because you and I both know there's a lot of people in a lot of

09:06companies that are very performative.

09:09They're performing for the boss.

09:11And I can remember I was Army ROTC in college.

09:16Army ROTC paid for my college.

09:17And I remember going through Army training.

09:20We had peer evaluations.

09:22And we had guys that the term was spotlight ranger.

09:25That was those guys that when they were in charge, it was all about, well, I'm going to look squared

09:29away.

09:30My stuff's going to look tight.

09:31I'm going to show off for the, be super motivated and we're going to get everything done, rah, rah, rah

09:36in front of the evaluators.

09:37But everybody knew that when the evaluators weren't looking and those guys weren't in charge, they were the biggest slackers

09:41around.

09:42Spotlights on them, they step up and put on a show.

09:45And when it came time for peer evaluations, that all got called out.

09:50I'm sure on more than one occasion, there were some evaluators sitting there scratching their head going, man, I totally

09:54missed that.

09:54And I didn't see that.

09:55But all these people that work with these people all the time, work with these people all the time, they

10:00didn't miss this stuff.

10:01And it was an eye opener for some of them.

10:03So that takes guts and courage on your part to be able to sit there and say, hey, you know

10:07what?

10:07I'm willing to hear what other people think and what they value.

10:10So cool.

10:11Yeah.

10:11Thank you for that.

10:12But I think it's a really important concept where when you have a centralized evaluation system, the incentive is actually

10:21to be political, where like, you know, you have to kind of self-promote a little bit according to these

10:26specific criteria.

10:27You know, maybe you hold down some competition and put the spotlight on yourself.

10:32But when you have a decentralized assessment system, the way that you are, you know, you garner value is by

10:38serving your teams, is by serving those around you and increasing their dependency on you.

10:43And that really has a pro-social right now.

10:47You solve a whole bunch of problems before they occur too.

10:49Culture problems, drama, conflict, unnecessary nonsense, people stealing credit for other people's ideas, people trying to, I hope I can

10:57pull this off.

10:58There was a friend of mine that talked about his culture in a non-favorable way, but I think he

11:03called it grab, duck, grab credit, duck responsibility and blame someone else.

11:10That was, that was his culture when it's, as you say, decentralized, people don't get away with that nonsense.

11:18And that is a bunch of nonsense.

11:19And that is the kind of stuff that just kills companies, employee engagement numbers and their retention and their labor

11:26costs.

11:27That is, so I love what you're saying.

11:30What should a CEO do when they suspect that their compensation structure is not rewarding actual value creation?

11:37Well, the first thing you have to do is measure what value is actually being created.

11:41And, you know, only through really understanding the centers of value and who's responsible for it, can you then begin

11:47to align the rewards accordingly.

11:50And, you know, I don't know of another way to do it beyond the way that we're doing it.

11:54And it's really the only, I think we're the only person or the only company that's doing it is kind

11:59of creating this self-assessment structure, this internal market system for the attribution of credit.

12:04And when you have that, you have the given market system.

12:07It's live, it's dynamic.

12:09A single person changing a single observation recalibrates the solution for the entire network.

12:14And so quite literally, you have a ticker of your peer-revered work performance over time.

12:21Each person does that you can quantify and measure and reinforce based on the right behaviors.

12:27And so that kind of the core output you need when you're trying to evaluate that is like, well, what

12:32is your proportionate share of contribution?

12:35You know, if we have a hundred people in our org, are you worth 2% of the org output

12:41or a quarter percent of the org output or whatever?

12:44And once you have that data and you can then connect it to the business results and you can see

12:51where the dollars are flowing and begin to create that alignment in a much more direct way.

12:55Because I could see where you could get some metrics pretty easy for a role like sales.

12:59Like, you know, what's your new account acquisition average dollar amount or your closing percentage or your client retention rates

13:08or your ability to cross-sell additional products or services within your existing account base?

13:12I mean, I could see where it'd be pretty easy for, you know, new account acquisition, client retention, customer satisfaction.

13:17I could see where in a role like sales would be pretty easy.

13:21Maybe some other roles might be a little bit more difficult.

13:23Can you give me an example of maybe some more difficult roles and how you made it simple?

13:28Well, yeah.

13:29And so let's, let's talk about like a little bit bigger picture.

13:32And so when you have underlying metrics, like a salesperson and you look at their, their numbers performance, you know,

13:38there's a different sort of assessment of your review of them.

13:42It's like they may be a high performer on the numbers, but they may be a total jerk and they

13:46may be screwing over customer success by not being honest with their, with their clients.

13:52And so, you know, someone else has to clean up the problem down the line.

13:55And so you have to incorporate the intangibles into those assessments beyond just the data.

14:01And we do that naturally as humans, right?

14:03Like we know if we look at our teams, we know who the top performers are and we know who

14:07is maybe underperforming.

14:09And so that's a kind of a natural human instinct to already incorporate a lot of the available data, but

14:15to fill it in with our perception when it's not there.

14:18And so, again, it's a little bit like the stock market.

14:21The companies, you know, they post their public financials every quarter and two companies could have the exact same P

14:27&Ls, but wildly different market values based on the intangibles that are input into that market system.

14:35And so it's the assessment, it's each individual's assessment of what they see going on around them that ultimately produces

14:43the solution to the distribution.

14:45Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your work is related to others' opinions and perceptions versus data?

14:52Because, for example, I know I have been on, I can tell how some companies evaluate the metrics of their

15:01customer service.

15:02I've been on the phone before and I, and you can tell when the customer service rep is trying to

15:07get you off the phone quickly because they're probably being evaluated by the average amount of time it takes for

15:12them to feel the call and the amount of complaints or poor reviews.

15:14Well, if they're unable to help, and it isn't even always their fault, I've been on the phone with people

15:19that it was not the rep's fault.

15:20It was a policy problem that was made above them.

15:23They didn't have the ability to fix it.

15:25They knew that I wasn't going to be a happy customer.

15:27They weren't going to get a good rating, not because they didn't do a good job, but because their company

15:30policy was terrible and couldn't fix my problem.

15:33And they just realized, they just dumped the call.

15:37I start over as a customer from scratch.

15:39They don't have any metrics showing that I was a dissatisfied customer.

15:43They realized it was going to take a lot longer time.

15:45Their metrics probably show they're great when, well, I guess that would, I don't know if that would be a

15:49great example because the person actually didn't do a bad job.

15:51It wasn't their fault.

15:52But let's say for the sake of discussion, maybe the rep was terrible or incompetent and didn't want to help

15:57or did have a bad attitude.

15:59And they just dumped the call and it's like, hey, if they dump every call, it's going to give them

16:02a bad review.

16:03And it gets thrown into the queue and someone else deals with them.

16:06The metrics would show that, hey, this guy's great.

16:08Look how short, look at the limited amount of time he spends with his average customer.

16:11He doesn't get any complaints.

16:12The data might show that this guy's a really good performer, but the people that are paying attention around probably

16:18know better.

16:19So that's why I'm curious what the balance is in your opinion between data and observation and opinions of those

16:25around them as far as peers.

16:27Yeah.

16:27So it's another kind of question about centralized judgment, right?

16:32Because their incentive structure is probably going to be paced on some of those metrics.

16:36And when you have centralized structure like that, it promotes local optimization.

16:41And what it doesn't do is promote, you know, overall business success.

16:46And so that rep, you know, is following their centralized metrics in that sense is that where that's going to

16:52show up is in the collective success of the business results being impacted negatively.

16:57And so it's really, there's really only one metric that aligns everybody from within, and it's the value of the

17:04organization.

17:05And like, you know, this concept of shareholder value and that kind of thing, you know, being the end all

17:10be all, you know, over time, I think is true.

17:13Because that is the single determining factor of the effectiveness of the collective from within.

17:20And so the only way to really align on the collective is through the distribution of like the decentralized distribution

17:28of value rather than the local optimization of centralized metrics.

17:33What is important, though, is that you're monitoring those local performance metrics in order to inform judgment about your perspectives

17:41rather than following the incentive structure of centralized metrics that can lead to local optimization.

17:50So how do you approach building a system that measures contribution in real time without creating internal competition that becomes

17:57unhealthy?

17:57I mean, ultimately, I mean, ultimately, I think it changes the incentive structure from one that already creates competition and

18:04unhealthy kind of political behavior.

18:06Fair enough.

18:07One that actually incentivizes service of the people you work with is because the way that you become valuable is

18:13by being of a service mindset to everyone that, you know, that you're collaborating with.

18:18And so it naturally, from our experience, people respect a meritocracy.

18:25If like if you have good scores because you believe in a system that is assigning those and you deserve

18:30it, that is respected, that is aspired to, that is not, that is not illicit kind of negative competition.

18:38It elicits a lot of kind of pro social and protein dynamics that are already kind of incumbent in high

18:44performing teams.

18:45So what are the key roadblocks to creating a truly unbiased talent assessment system?

18:51The key roadblocks, I think, are mental.

18:53It is do you want to know the truth and do you really want to understand how people perceive your

19:01contribution and are you motivated to respond accordingly?

19:05Because when you see your scores, it may align perfectly with how you think you're doing, but it may not.

19:10And what we've seen is that the resistance to this information is the key roadblock.

19:16But once people have it across the board, like there's an inherent intrinsic human characteristic to respond with favorable change.

19:26Like people are motivated to improve their performance at work because they believe the way that the value is being

19:33attributed and they understand how to grow their own value.

19:36And the behavior change across the board is almost instant.

19:39You mentioned earlier about identifying risks associated with, hey, we've got a manager that's causing problems out in the field

19:45or something like that.

19:46How do you know when a manager is underperforming before it becomes obvious in the numbers?

19:51Or can you tell?

19:53Well, I mean, the reality is that it's obvious in the numbers almost instantly.

19:57And, you know, if people perceive a problem, the moment they perceive it, it can be in the numbers.

20:02And if that is a widely held view, it shows up and you can you can see, well, we have

20:08four of these type of managers and one of them is far below the other three.

20:12That gets really obvious really quickly.

20:14Can you maybe give me an example of a time when feedback exposed a leadership issue that would have otherwise

20:21gone unnoticed?

20:22Yeah, I mean, it was instant in our like I'll go back to my previous organization when we were just

20:28testing and rolling out the system.

20:30We had two underperforming managers in the field and we only did the test for about an hour and we

20:36could see the data right away based on everybody's perspective in that particular location.

20:42It showed up instantly.

20:43And, you know, you go do a little bit of digging and and not asking around.

20:47And lo and behold, there was some intervention.

20:50And that was not something that would have shown up in any sort of kind of standard HR review process

20:56that we were implementing at the time, at least.

20:57What should leaders focus on first if they want to move away from annual reviews towards more of a real

21:04time feedback model?

21:06I think it is a an interest in knowing the truth, an interest in decentralizing assessment and welcoming that information

21:15because it is closer to the truth.

21:17And, you know, there's there's some leaders who kind of like their control structures, but that can impact business performance

21:23in meaningful ways where, you know, the teams that are really engaged in like, all right, we want to get

21:28better.

21:29We want to know the facts about, you know, some of the things we may not say to each other,

21:33but are important for our ongoing performance.

21:35Embracing of that type of intel is really the first step because that's the key to unlocking the rest of

21:41the data.

21:42Yeah. So how do you implement real time feedback in a way that employees actually trust and engage with?

21:47Do you have any tips or suggestions about how to do that?

21:51Well, you have to have an engaging system. Right.

21:53And the other thing is that it can't be done by centralized mandate.

21:58You know, if the if the boss says we're doing this, everybody, every day, real time feedback for everyone, it's

22:04just not going to stick.

22:05And so people have to have an intrinsic interest in participating, in sharing their observations.

22:13And the way that we do it is that, you know, you share observations, you learn about yourself, you share

22:19observations, you get feedback, how to enhance your career, you share observations, you understand better how you are fitting in

22:26to the team dynamic and the team performance and elevating your own prominence.

22:30And that type of feedback loop that we found to be sustainable and that people are engaging in keeping their

22:37observations current because they're learning more about themselves at the same time.

22:42I think this has to be an eye opener for the boss or the owner, because I've been unfortunately not

22:48often or for very long.

22:50But I have experience with groups where there is an incredibly toxic employee who is has a ton of institutional

22:59knowledge and abuses the in this particular case, abuse the owner's latitude.

23:05Felt untouchable, like nothing's going to happen to me because I know more than anyone else about this company and

23:10how things work.

23:11And I'm too valuable to be replaced.

23:13I know there's an old saying, anybody's replaceable, but this person did not believe they were replaceable.

23:19And you want to talk about if this one particular person had been eliminated from that area of the building,

23:25you would have seen the morale of the entire group and the performance entire group and the attendance of the

23:31entire group go way up.

23:33All of them, boss oblivious.

23:38Yeah.

23:39Literally protected this person like they were the golden goose and that walked on water and knows so much and

23:44so helpful.

23:45But had there been a mechanism where the boss could have seen that toxic employee through the eyes of the

23:53non-toxic employees, things might have been handled differently.

23:57You know, and that goes back to wanting to know the truth.

24:00And, you know, you have to be interested in really understanding what's going on and wanting to do the right

24:05things accordingly.

24:06And, you know, and then aligning the incentive structure accordingly in order to get that information.

24:13Honestly, I think if the people in that side of the building and this toxic employee affected that whole side

24:19of the building, they would have done extra to make up for the work that the toxic employee purportedly did.

24:26It would have been worth it to work harder to not have to deal with that particular employee.

24:30And there's just no way for them to communicate that.

24:33And people left because of it.

24:34Or, and some of them actually stayed and did enough not to get fired.

24:38Just back down like, okay.

24:40I mean, that's disengagement at its core, right?

24:42It's like, you know, you don't.

24:44Go ahead, Nero.

24:45Show us how it's done.

24:46You know everything.

24:47Go ahead.

24:47Show us how.

24:48Let them.

24:48Yeah.

24:50But when you see that data in, you know, for yourself and you can kind of, you can do the

24:55math on like, well, how much is this person being compensated relative to how much they are bringing to the

25:01team?

25:01And you see a big negative number.

25:04There's another kind of business incentive beyond the cultural one to make change.

25:09This would have been a big number, a big minus.

25:12Yeah.

25:13What are the biggest mistake companies make when they try to modernize their performance management systems, in your opinion?

25:18In my opinion, most of the kind of modernization of this performance management is really just kind of augmenting the

25:26old methods with tech.

25:28And it's making it easier.

25:30It's making it more efficient.

25:32But it's still providing this kind of centralized assessment structure and predetermined criteria.

25:38And it just doesn't capture all of the intangibles in an important way.

25:43And so I think, you know, advancing the old process is really kind of the biggest mistake that I see.

25:48So one of the things I think might be tricky, I'm curious what your take on this is, is how

25:52do you balance transparency with sensitivity when you're servicing data about individual contributions?

25:58That's got to be a little tricky.

26:00100%.

26:01What insights do you have for how to do that well?

26:04Do's or don'ts?

26:04People have to feel comfortable that the information that they are inputting is anonymous, is confidential.

26:12People aren't, they really aren't going to share what's on their mind in most instances if they're scared that it's

26:18going to come back to them.

26:18And so you have to be able to clean it for anonymity in order to then be able to provide

26:24it to somebody.

26:24And there's some real nuances for how you do that.

26:27Because, you know, humans are smart.

26:31That might be kind of tough.

26:33You know, it's doable.

26:35It's very doable.

26:36And so, you know, we've really never had any client think they know who's provided the feedback.

26:42And, you know, there's ways that you can package it up, that you can combine it with multiple pieces of

26:48feedback,

26:49that you can delay timing appropriately and remove some of the context while still providing really valuable feedback.

26:56And so one is feeling comfortable inputting the information.

27:00And, you know, the second one is like, as if you as a user can't guess who's providing your feedback,

27:07that also builds trust in the system.

27:12So for a founder or CEO listening right now, what's the first practical step that they can take to better

27:19align their people, performance and compensation?

27:22First practical step you can take is start to measure who is contributing within your organization and see in a

27:28decentralized way who is who the who the key people are,

27:32who may be carrying a title or a compensation package that's greater than their actual input.

27:38And, you know, creating that incentive structure for people to kind of move away from a political centralized system and

27:46have the incentive to serve.

27:48I think those are the kind of the key first steps.

27:52So this is my favorite question, and I always save it till the end.

27:56I know you've got remarkable and very unique experience and valuable perspectives and insights.

28:01For those who are listening, if there was just one piece of advice that you could give to anyone listening,

28:07what would be the most important piece of advice you could give them and why?

28:11You know, I look back to my own kind of transformation of like realizing that I didn't have all the

28:16answers and in allowing for that.

28:19And when I when I realized that, like, it's not just my perspective that matters, it enables you to level

28:26up and really understand what does matter and then be able to act accordingly.

28:31And I think allowing yourself to, you know, grow in that dynamic is really important as a leader and really

28:39can have direct translation into the performance of your organization as well.

28:43And so that I think that's the key lesson that I'd leave.

28:46So if people want to know more about you, the work you do and how you serve companies, what are

28:52the best ways for them to learn more or connect or engage with you or your organization?

28:56Yeah, I'm active on LinkedIn at, you know, slash Jacob D. Chase, D for Daniel.

29:02Our website is www.theinfant.com and I can be reached at jacobattheinfant.com and, you know, I'll respond to

29:14everything personally.

29:15Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us.

29:17I appreciate your insights and much respect to do what you did and what you do do takes guts and

29:24not everyone, not everyone has that.

29:26So kudos to you for, for stepping outside of the norm and pushing some boundaries, but I love it.

29:33And I hope that people listening or have some ideas and are inspired to take an action on them.

29:37I appreciate you sharing today. Thank you.

29:39Awesome, Mason. Thanks so much. I had a blast being here. Great conversation.

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