- 3 weeks ago
This week on State Of Grace, our host, Grace Baldridge, explores where faith and gender intersect. She uncovers how these identities can conflict and coincide. Watch this episode of State Of Grace to better understand faith in relation to gender.
ABOUT SERIES
State Of Grace is a series that explores the intersection of human rights, sexuality, and faith. Host Grace Baldridge dives into controversial societal realities that Americans face everyday and how to navigate the modern world while remaining faithful.
ABOUT REFINERY29
Refinery29 is a modern woman's destination for how to live a stylish, well-rounded life. http://refinery29.com/
RELATED CONTENT
The Life Threatening Dangers Of Gay Conversion Therapy
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HL5ThApf0IA
The Scary Reality Of Sex Education In Alabama
https://youtube.com/watch?v=j3ej5JBa95E
The Dark Reality Of Celebrity Endorsed Mega-Churches
https://youtube.com/watch?v=KLuB7fvMlhc
SUBSCRIBE TO REFINERY29
Subscribe to the Refinery29 channel: http://bit.ly/subscribe-to-r29
TALENT
Follow Grace Baldridge on Instagram: https://instagram.com/gracebaldridge/
Follow Unbothered on Instagram: https://instagram.com/r29unbothered/
Follow OnHerTurf on Instagram: https://instagram.com/onherturf/
Follow Refinery29 on Instagram: https://instagram.com/refinery2
ABOUT SERIES
State Of Grace is a series that explores the intersection of human rights, sexuality, and faith. Host Grace Baldridge dives into controversial societal realities that Americans face everyday and how to navigate the modern world while remaining faithful.
ABOUT REFINERY29
Refinery29 is a modern woman's destination for how to live a stylish, well-rounded life. http://refinery29.com/
RELATED CONTENT
The Life Threatening Dangers Of Gay Conversion Therapy
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HL5ThApf0IA
The Scary Reality Of Sex Education In Alabama
https://youtube.com/watch?v=j3ej5JBa95E
The Dark Reality Of Celebrity Endorsed Mega-Churches
https://youtube.com/watch?v=KLuB7fvMlhc
SUBSCRIBE TO REFINERY29
Subscribe to the Refinery29 channel: http://bit.ly/subscribe-to-r29
TALENT
Follow Grace Baldridge on Instagram: https://instagram.com/gracebaldridge/
Follow Unbothered on Instagram: https://instagram.com/r29unbothered/
Follow OnHerTurf on Instagram: https://instagram.com/onherturf/
Follow Refinery29 on Instagram: https://instagram.com/refinery2
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00The most vitriol we receive is in the name of Jesus.
00:03They wish us bodily harm in the name of Jesus.
00:07Obviously, that's not Christian.
00:08That's not in alignment with anything we know.
00:10I can't even compute what you just say.
00:11In the name of Jesus.
00:13As the good Lord said, go to hell.
00:16Close your eyes and imagine God.
00:18What does God look like, if anything, to you?
00:21Is it an old man sitting on a cloud?
00:23A woman in a rocking chair?
00:25A very wise owl?
00:27What gender do you assign to God?
00:30And why?
00:30Like many other faith traditions,
00:32Christianity has drawn definitive lines on the basis of gender.
00:36The gender identity of a Christian can impact
00:38how and where they are allowed to worship
00:40and often the types of leadership roles they are allowed to hold.
00:44Historically, straight white men are the most frequently championed
00:47for leadership positions in the church.
00:49Many denominations, like the Roman Catholic Church,
00:52don't allow women to lead or be ordained.
00:54And certainly, if you don't identify neatly within a gender binary,
00:58things get even trickier.
00:59Remember this?
01:01From funerals to pride parades,
01:03these street preachers condemn entire communities.
01:06Yeah.
01:07It should come as no shock that some of the most exclusionary
01:10and harmful messages about queer and trans children of God
01:13are being taught from the pulpit.
01:16Where to begin?
01:17Let's go straight to the source material.
01:19It is estimated that there are around 450 English translations of the Bible,
01:24which was originally written in Hebrew,
01:26and none, and this is true, were transcribed by God or Jesus.
01:30So which one is correct?
01:31And what might have been lost or altered in translation?
01:34I'm visiting the office of Dr. Lizzie Byrne DeGear,
01:37a Catholic feminist and Hebrew Bible scholar,
01:40to learn more about what's really in this sacred text.
01:42You can actually look at these texts that we all have,
01:47and you can find really powerful experience of divine feminine,
01:51of women with power,
01:53of spirituality that calls us all well beyond sexism
01:57and well beyond misogyny.
01:59And we just have to be honest about the fact that, like,
02:02using the pronoun he for God is a habit,
02:07but it has no theological justification.
02:10The word Elohim in Hebrew is actually a plural word, Elohim,
02:15that once monotheism started to become entrenched,
02:20they grammatically made it masculine singular,
02:22but Elohim is plural,
02:24and it comes from the fact that we understand the divine in many ways.
02:29It's becoming clear to me that much of what we've been taught
02:32about biblically-based gender roles has been shaped by social context
02:36and the very human people doing the translating.
02:39The first African-American, the first person of color,
02:43the first woman in the collegiate church history
02:47to become a collegiate senior minister,
02:49moi, 15 years ago.
02:50This is my predecessor, Gordon,
02:52who was committed to hiring a woman
02:54to replace him.
02:55And so that was a pretty prophetic thing for a man to do.
02:58He wasn't going to hire any men.
02:59It looks to me like progress.
03:03On these walls are all the collegiate ministers
03:05that have served this church,
03:06and one of them was a slaveholder.
03:09Look how far we've come.
03:11I visited Middle Collegiate Church,
03:14the oldest continuous Protestant church in the United States,
03:17led by senior minister, Reverend Jackie Lewis,
03:20who made history as the first woman and person of color
03:23to hold her position.
03:24Did you always want to be in a leadership position?
03:27I always wanted to be a pastor
03:28since I was almost nine.
03:32I didn't see women preachers,
03:33but I had the best female Sunday school teachers.
03:36And I think they saw my calling,
03:40and they really affirmed it.
03:42Mrs. Dixon was my Sunday school teacher
03:44from the time I was in second grade till high school.
03:47Her steadfastness, her leadership,
03:48I was clear that she was a minister,
03:50even though she wasn't a minister.
03:51I think a lot of times we hear about, you know,
03:53women not serving in leadership positions,
03:55but yet I'm hearing about your Sunday school teachers.
03:57It doesn't really matter to me if they weren't pastors.
04:00No, they were pastoring me.
04:01Right.
04:01Throughout time,
04:03people have interpreted scripture
04:04in ways to codify, solidify their own presumptions,
04:09biases, prejudices.
04:10Every human being is creating
04:12what they think God is like all the time,
04:15what their image of God is
04:17and the relationship they have with God.
04:19It is an ongoing process.
04:20You can see in our stained glass windows
04:22that we've picked, there's women.
04:24There's Jesus talking to Mary Magdalene
04:26when he is resurrected.
04:28There is Jesus over here
04:30having a conversation with Mary and Martha.
04:32That's breaking boundaries.
04:34Does this make sense?
04:35That God wouldn't appreciate LGBTQIA people
04:38if we're also saying God created us all in love?
04:41It's a struggle sometimes
04:42when people are throwing verses at you
04:44and people you care about
04:45and communities you care about.
04:46But then you can argue on interpretation
04:48and translations.
04:50When I imagine a trans child
04:54coming to understand,
04:55I think I might be a girl in this boy body.
04:58I'm like, thank you God
05:01that the child is becoming aware
05:03of who they really are.
05:05And our job as a culture
05:07and as a society, as a church,
05:08is to make safe spaces for people to be.
05:10In my own personal journey,
05:12when I was presenting as like real female,
05:15I was the furthest from God
05:17because I was the most concerned
05:19with what the world thought of me.
05:21I wanted to know that
05:21when I walked into every room
05:22that I didn't make people uncomfortable
05:24because I was so uncomfortable
05:26with who I was.
05:27As soon as I was able to
05:28really have this moment of like,
05:30I want to cut my hair,
05:31I've wanted to do it for so long.
05:33Like, you know,
05:34as soon as I was able to do that
05:35and like when I felt safe
05:36and I felt comfortable
05:37and I felt loved,
05:38only then was I able to have
05:39any type of a personal relationship
05:41with God.
05:42God creates out of love.
05:44God creates love out of love.
05:46We who are in the image of God
05:47are all awesome.
05:48So when I'm talking to you,
05:50I'm learning a little bit more about God
05:51because you're in God's image
05:53and when you're talking to me,
05:54the same is true.
05:57We only know God
05:58because we know each other.
06:01I'm about to get that tattooed on my body.
06:03Let's do it.
06:03Well, let's do it together.
06:05Jackie made me think about
06:06how becoming the most authentic version
06:08of yourself,
06:09regardless of gender,
06:10can bring you closer to God.
06:12But is it possible to do that
06:14within traditional doctrinal parameters?
06:17Well, it is a beautiful fall day
06:19in New Jersey,
06:20so we here at State of Grace
06:22thought that it would be
06:23the perfect time
06:23to talk about gender.
06:25The leaves are changing
06:26and so are our perceptions
06:28of gender, okay?
06:29We're going to a convent
06:31and we're going to speak
06:32with a nun
06:33who has a pretty different interpretation
06:36and understanding of her gender
06:39as it relates to her faith.
06:41Pro tip from nuns.
06:44The best way to warm your hands
06:45this winter.
06:47All the coolest nuns are doing it.
06:49I started out as a little kid
06:51in the early 70s
06:54and reruns were
06:56The Flying Nun.
06:57I was actually going to ask you
06:59about The Flying Nun.
07:00And I watched The Nun's Story
07:02and I remember thinking
07:03when I was like seven or eight years old,
07:05that's me.
07:06I think all our life
07:07when you're trying to find
07:08your authentic self,
07:09you see it somewhere
07:11and you go,
07:12I could fit in with those weirdos
07:14because I'm the same kind of weirdo.
07:16And people thought that I was crazy.
07:18I was told by my family
07:20and by my friends,
07:21by the entire culture,
07:22that women were supposed to
07:24get married and have children.
07:26That never felt right to me.
07:28I didn't feel called to marriage.
07:29I didn't feel called to children.
07:31I felt called to God.
07:33Sister Monica spent 14 years
07:35paying off her financial debt
07:37in order to become a nun,
07:39since you have to be debt-free
07:40to enter the sisterhood.
07:42You're here six times a day.
07:43Yeah, six times a day
07:44coming here and praying.
07:46I left the Southern Baptist faith
07:48when I was in my mid-teens
07:50because I had so many gay friends.
07:52I went to the Roman Catholic Church
07:53and I thought,
07:54can I belong to a denomination
07:56where women cannot be priests
07:58and where there isn't inclusion?
08:01Sister Monica's commitment to inclusion
08:03led her to the Episcopal Order.
08:05Do you feel empowered as a nun?
08:08I do.
08:09In my secular life,
08:10I was very shy,
08:12very low self-esteem.
08:13I didn't look people in the eye.
08:15I looked at the floor.
08:16At the first big gathering
08:17we had here when I was a novice,
08:20I remember going around
08:21and talking to people
08:22and shaking hands
08:23and being really excited
08:24and really happy,
08:25and I thought,
08:27I'm not shy anymore
08:30because this is my tribe.
08:32It felt like I had been in exile
08:34all my life
08:35and I had finally been allowed
08:37to come home.
08:37How do you feel
08:38like being a nun
08:39is counter-cultural?
08:40I think because I've rejected
08:43our culture's mandate for happiness.
08:46I've rejected romantic relationships.
08:50I've rejected having children.
08:52I'm rejecting this model of happiness
08:55and saying there's another way to be happy.
08:58But what happens when your gender
09:00is deemed invalid by church teachings?
09:02Listen,
09:03I know this is a video
09:04on the internet about gender,
09:06so I anticipate some spicy responses.
09:08Just to get ahead of a few things.
09:10Gender and sexuality
09:11are entirely different.
09:13Gender is who you are,
09:14sexuality is who you like,
09:15and being transgender
09:16is not a mental disorder.
09:17So let's not look stupid
09:18in the comment section
09:19and say that.
09:20Google is free.
09:21Now back to our feature presentation.
09:23This is Dr. Paula Stone-Williams.
09:25She is a pastor, speaker,
09:27and gender equality advocate.
09:29Before coming out as trans in 2012,
09:31she was a prominent
09:32evangelical pastor and CEO.
09:34Her son Jonathan
09:34followed in the family business
09:36and is also a pastor
09:37at Forefront Church
09:38here in Brooklyn.
09:39We started with an organization
09:40that was fairly conservative.
09:42I wasn't ready
09:43to put the label
09:44progressive on myself.
09:45It was made clear to you
09:46that there were certain boundaries
09:48you couldn't cross
09:49in order to maintain
09:50sort of the status
09:51of your community,
09:53your faith community.
09:54It was very implicit.
09:55As soon as you do that,
09:56you're going to lose money
09:58and you're going to lose people
09:59and your church
10:00might not ever get off the ground.
10:01And then my dad
10:03decides she's going to transition
10:05to the female gender,
10:06which will do a lot to a person.
10:09Yeah.
10:10I had a lot of power
10:11and a lot of influence
10:12and so I was pretty convinced
10:13that from my rather lofty perch
10:15of power and influence
10:17that I could bring about change
10:18from within.
10:19And it might take,
10:20oh, I don't know,
10:20a few thousand years.
10:21But, you know,
10:22I thought once I came out,
10:24they can either think,
10:25oh my God,
10:25we were wrong about Paul's character.
10:26We thought he was a person
10:27of character and he's not.
10:29Or they could think,
10:30oh, wow,
10:31we really must be wrong
10:32about our view of gender dysphoria
10:33and what it means
10:34to be transgender
10:34because we know the character
10:36of this person
10:37and so we need to re-examine the issue.
10:39You know,
10:39didn't exactly expect them
10:41to choose the former.
10:42I lost all of my jobs
10:43within seven days.
10:44In 21 states,
10:45you cannot be fired
10:46for being transgender,
10:47but in all 50,
10:47you can be fired if you're trans
10:48and you work
10:49for a religious corporation.
10:51I saw that there was
10:52a crisis of life for her.
10:53I saw that she was depressed
10:55and to me,
10:56that was heartbreaking.
10:57And so I said,
10:57you know,
10:58if my dad's going through this,
10:59there's got to be thousands
11:00of other people
11:01going through this similar disowning,
11:03for lack of a better term,
11:04from their faith
11:05or from their families
11:06or from their friends.
11:07And so as a church,
11:08we publicly said,
11:09we are going to affirm
11:11the LGBTQIA community.
11:13We don't have to be uniform
11:14in that belief right away.
11:15We can question it,
11:16we can disagree,
11:17but this is the stance
11:18our church is going to take
11:19from here on out.
11:20During my message,
11:21while I was preaching,
11:21I watched, you know,
11:22five or six people
11:23get up and leave.
11:23Oh, for real?
11:24Yeah, yeah.
11:24I would say people gave it
11:26a month, two months.
11:28And when they were like,
11:29oh, he's really doing this,
11:30he's really going to be an ally
11:32for the LGBT community,
11:34this church isn't for us
11:35any longer.
11:36We lost lots of people,
11:37lost thousands of dollars,
11:38and it was such a good move.
11:40We could sit here
11:41and be comfortable
11:41and say, okay,
11:42well, the money's still rolling in
11:43and there's a lot of people
11:44coming through my doors
11:45and we could feel good about that.
11:46But when there's literally
11:47people out there
11:47who are told that
11:48they're not loved
11:48and people whose families
11:50are disowning them for this,
11:51we need to step up
11:51and become safe spaces.
11:53If there was anything Jesus did,
11:54it was hold space
11:55for the people in the margins.
11:57I mean, when he's dealing
11:58with Mary and Martha,
12:00they're confronting him.
12:01They are women of wealth.
12:03They're pretty much
12:04in charge of their brother.
12:05They're everything we think
12:07women in Bible times were not.
12:09The way that the patriarchy,
12:11really from the time
12:12of Augustine on,
12:13has twisted the story
12:16is in a direction
12:17that does not fit
12:18with the historical Jesus.
12:33This is Jamie Brisehoff
12:35and her daughter Rebecca.
12:36When Rebecca came out
12:37to her family as trans,
12:38the Brisehoffs rallied
12:39to not only support their daughter,
12:41but spread awareness
12:42about LGBTQ plus issues.
12:45Furthermore,
12:46Rebecca's dad is a pastor,
12:47so much of the Brisehoffs' activism
12:48is especially focused
12:50on engaging with faith communities.
12:51Oh, yeah, there's a sign.
12:53The original.
12:54The sign that started it all.
12:56Wow.
12:58People of faith are doing
12:59the loudest and most significant damage
13:01to the trans and non-binary
13:03and LGBTQ communities,
13:05both personally and politically.
13:07We really feel that the only way
13:09we can combat that negativity
13:11is with people of faith
13:13standing up and saying,
13:14no, this is actually not in alignment
13:17with how we understand our faith,
13:19that you can be Christian and trans
13:20and you can be Christian and gay
13:22and that they're not mutually exclusive.
13:25You guys have chosen
13:26to be quite visible.
13:27Yeah.
13:27And I wonder why.
13:29I mean, we follow your lead largely.
13:31Um, well, because I think
13:34it's really important
13:36for kids like me
13:37to have the support
13:38and knowledge
13:40of that there's someone else
13:41fighting for them.
13:43It's a lot scarier for kids
13:44that don't have supportive parents,
13:46that don't have good policies
13:47in place in their schools,
13:48that don't have everything
13:50she's had that has made her successful.
13:52And so we really felt like
13:53it was our opportunity
13:55to use that privilege
13:56to make the world
13:58a safer place for those kids.
13:59I get told it's child abuse
14:01on a daily basis
14:02by like strangers
14:02on the internet
14:03or that we're forcing this
14:04on her at some point.
14:06Like, I couldn't force her
14:07to eat a vegetable
14:08like that she didn't like
14:09if I tried.
14:10I can't imagine
14:11that I could force her
14:12to be someone who she isn't.
14:13Whoa.
14:14Watch out.
14:15I've been on one of them once
14:16and I wiped out.
14:17This is the LGBT agenda
14:19they warned you about.
14:21We always said
14:22colors are for everyone,
14:23clothes are for everyone.
14:24Be any kind of boy
14:25you want to be.
14:26She just wasn't a boy.
14:28And so now
14:28we know she's a girl
14:29and we say
14:30be any kind of girl
14:31you want to be.
14:31Because like
14:32it's not about
14:33just switching boxes
14:34it's about breaking down
14:35those boxes
14:36and just showing up
14:37fully as ourselves
14:38and saying that
14:39like society doesn't
14:40get to determine
14:40what that means.
14:42What about like
14:43some church communities
14:44that would be like
14:44okay well that's not
14:45important for us.
14:46I think they're like
14:47well we don't want to
14:47make church about
14:48you know
14:49LGBTQ identities
14:51like that's
14:51like we're church
14:52like we're Christians
14:53as our identity here
14:55kind of thing.
14:56What they don't understand
14:57is that by not creating
14:58that space
14:59by not being
15:00loudly, boldly
15:01and joyfully welcoming
15:02you are
15:04excluding people.
15:05We get hate mail
15:06we get death threats
15:08that we're all going to hell
15:09that she's going to hell
15:10that she's like
15:10the devil incarnate
15:11she gets kind of
15:12excited about that
15:13what she's like
15:14Do I look like
15:15the devil incarnate?
15:16No.
15:17If they're not
15:18in my lives
15:19in my community
15:20then why should I care?
15:25She has been so well loved
15:27and supported
15:28that because of that
15:30she can respond
15:31in love
15:32even to the most hate
15:35Today we're having a
15:36workshop at church
15:37that's about creating
15:38safer and more welcoming
15:39communities for LGBTQ people
15:41We have to do the work
15:42to prepare
15:43like you can't say
15:43all are welcome
15:44and not change anything
15:46about your community
15:50I am going to review
15:51some of like
15:52the 101 stuff
15:53so we're all on
15:53the same page
15:54and then we'll talk
15:55about tangible ways
15:56we can make our spaces
15:57and our communities
15:58more welcoming
15:59to all people
16:00Most importantly
16:01we respect
16:02self-identification
16:03so we can listen
16:04to the words
16:05that people use
16:06to describe themselves
16:07and mirror that language
16:09back to them
16:10even if we don't know
16:11all of the terminology
16:12I believe God
16:13loves us all
16:14so by attending here
16:16I'm learning
16:16some tools
16:18that I need
16:19to make an
16:20incredible difference
16:21and attending
16:23more pride events
16:24like you said
16:24will give me more
16:25information
16:25more education
16:26I think that's
16:27what we all need to do
16:28Go ahead
16:28I just wanted to say
16:29it's really incredibly moving
16:31to be here with this community
16:32and to see so many people
16:35that are like
16:35really fired up
16:36to support us
16:37because we really need y'all
16:39like and we can't do this
16:40on our own
16:40this is the sort of
16:41Christ-like love
16:42that I want to feel
16:44and I want people
16:45to know and understand
16:46from the Christian community
16:48I'm a transgender free
16:51and because of Jamie
16:52is why I came back
16:53to this church
16:54I left the Catholic church
16:55I didn't feel like
16:56we belong
16:56especially with the rhetoric
16:58coming out
16:58I saw everything
17:00that Jamie's done
17:01done for her daughter
17:03and this is why
17:04I came back
17:05to this church
17:05you all being here
17:07matters a lot
17:08like more than I can say
17:09thank you
17:16my time in New York
17:18and New Jersey
17:18left me reflecting
17:19on the mind of God
17:20the impossibly mysterious
17:22and creative mind
17:23of God
17:24when we stand
17:25before our creator
17:26what criteria
17:28will be used
17:28to judge our character
17:29everything I've experienced
17:31tells me that gender
17:32or gender presentation
17:33is no indication
17:34into the condition
17:35of a person's soul
17:36I've met people
17:38who have expanded
17:38and challenged
17:39the way I think
17:40about gender
17:40especially as it relates
17:42to Christian teachings
17:43why is the Bible
17:44still a reference point
17:45to justify harm
17:46against some of the least
17:47among us
17:48biblical context
17:49is so important
17:50and ignorance is frankly
17:51inexcusable
17:52when the stakes
17:53are so high
17:54when we discover
17:55our authentic selves
17:56and celebrate
17:57and support others
17:58for doing the same
17:59we get just the tiniest
18:00glimpse
18:00into the infinite
18:02and divine
18:03thank you for watching
18:05Refinery29
18:06for more videos
18:07click here
18:08and to subscribe
18:08click here
Comments