00:00Okay, let's raise the big question on our talking point then today. Did the CBSE push online evaluation history this
00:07time? Why wasn't the software tested properly? How big is the CBSE re-evaluation crisis? Is this the next neat
00:15-like crisis in a different sense? Can justice be done to the affected students?
00:20Joining me now, Dr. Sudha Acharya, Principal International Public School joins me, CB Sharma Educationist, Professor Anita Rampal, Professor and
00:29former Dean Faculty of Education Delhi University and Ibrahim Khan, he's a CBSE student, Saranpur.
00:35I want to come to you, Ibrahim, first. You've seen the case of Vedan Srivastava, who claims that he received
00:41the wrong copy of his answer sheet through the CBSE re-evaluation process.
00:48Are you worried about the way the evaluation, the way the markings have been done? Will you also, did you
00:55also plan to send your paper for re-evaluation?
00:59Yes, sir. I've been very worried about this re-evaluation and the first evaluation in itself because many of my
01:06friends in my circle have also faced similar issues where they were given marks they did not deserve.
01:11They should have been given more marks.
01:18So, you're worried about the way the marking system was done. What are you planning to do about it?
01:24Vedanth went public, went on social media and pointed out there were errors in the way the re-evaluation was
01:31done.
01:32What are you planning to do?
01:35I'm planning to reconsider and give my copy for re-checking, just like many of my friends have done.
01:41And bringing this on social media does not help at all because CBSE is good at handling such minor incidences
01:47and people who raise their voices against them.
01:54You know, you're saying many of your friends, therefore, am I correct, are also planning to still send their papers
02:00for re-evaluation even though the deadline is expiring tonight.
02:05Yes, sir. They are also considering this because this is such a serious issue and their marks do matter in
02:11life.
02:12And especially class 12 is such an important grade in life and they should have given what they deserved.
02:21And is there a particular paper where you had a problem or all your marking or all the papers were
02:27problematic?
02:27Is there a particular subject paper?
02:31The most disappointing thing is that the most good subject I'm in is like English and I have never gotten
02:38below 80 percent.
02:39But this time I got 71 in English and that is such a big disappointment.
02:43Apart from like subjects like science, physics, chemistry, biology, those are acceptable if I get lower marks than I have
02:51done.
02:51But English, that's such a major disappointment and definitely an error.
02:59Let me therefore bring in my guests on that point.
03:02Dr. Sudha Acharya, do you believe something's gone wrong with the marking system that so many students are slowly coming
03:08up and saying that they did not get the marks they deserve?
03:12Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with this new online script monitoring system, the answer sheet that was
03:18uploaded by CBSE
03:21after allegations of evaluation errors and unexpected marks?
03:25Is there something wrong with the system or are these exceptional cases like that of a Vedan Srivastava?
03:31No, these are not exceptional at all.
03:34CBSE has taken a massive step to digitize the whole examination ecosystem and 98 lakh answer scripts were scanned.
03:44So, such a massive step were taken so hurriedly.
03:47I mean, I am involved right from the first day.
03:50Dry testing to chief nodal supervisor and evaluation taking place in my school, ITIL public school for 19 subjects.
03:59So, we have seen in the beginning it started very well.
04:03Then we started getting blur paper and evaluators were having a hard time checking them.
04:10So, we rejected, we sent them back to CBSE.
04:14So, at the highest policy decision making agency, whoever are taking decision, I would request them have some empathy for
04:22children.
04:23Please take decision as per children's career, professional course, admission and their mental distress.
04:30We are all the time talking about mental health and mental stress.
04:34We have simply increased their mental health and distress, nothing else.
04:40And from evaluators' point of viewтАж
04:42You know, CB Sharma, a full onlineтАж
04:46Yes, CB Sharma, full online script monitoring system.
04:51Do you believe it was used inconsistently?
04:53I am repeating the question.
04:54Is Vedan Srivastava's case an exception or has something once again fundamentally gone wrong with the haste with which this
05:03system has been brought in?
05:05Was there a hybrid system where manual methods were also used?
05:09Or do you believe something has gone wrong fundamentally with the system?
05:15It would be an exception.
05:16It is utterly wrong to sayтАж
05:18You are on mute, sir.
05:21CBSC has introduced it in a hurry.
05:24Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
05:25I am aware that CBSC introduced or started experimenting with it right in 2014.
05:34And since then, they have tried at the technology.
05:37In fact, this technology came into the evaluation system much, much before the CBSC introduced.
05:43In fact, Odisha School Board introduced much before CBSC.
05:47A number of universities did it.
05:49I am aware of the technology.
05:51This technology works very well.
05:53I am surprised how this is happening.
05:57I wanted to dig into it and I did some research about it.
06:02The CBSC is very, very careful about some pages not being scanned, sent to the evaluator.
06:08It cannot go.
06:10The technology stops it.
06:11I am completely surprised how this has happened.
06:15This should not happen.
06:17And absolutely, there is absolutely no excuse that this has happened in one case or some cases.
06:24There has to be zero tolerance.
06:27Every life matters.
06:28Every child matters for us.
06:30And even if there is 0.0001% error, then I believe that CBSC has to be in dock.
06:37Sometimes what happens is that you have to do it at many places and they are not able to monitor.
06:44But the CBSC must have taken full care that this doesn't happen even in one case.
06:51If this has happened, I believe, in spite of the fact that I trust this technology, I have tried this
06:58technology, I would say CBSC has to answer if there are five students who complain that their copies or their
07:09answer sheets are not evaluated or left unanswered.
07:16You know, Professor Anita Rampal, the same question is coming up again and again.
07:23Is it about scale, as we saw with NEAT also, the sheer scale of an exam, CBSC, even a larger
07:28scale, the sheer scale of the exam is making it more and more difficult to have an error-proof exam.
07:35I mean, is something fundamentally wrong with the evaluation process?
07:39I think this is a misguided decision to get it done digitally.
07:45I mean, I think we are completely forgetting the human process of what it means, the cognitive process of what
07:52it means to be reading a mark sheet, reading an answer sheet.
07:56How do you process it?
07:57How do you flip back and flip forth and then take a decision?
08:01I think this is completely misguided.
08:03I've spoken to teachers who have done this, some of our best teachers, I mean, our best former students who
08:08are now teachers with very good experience and they are quite devastated.
08:13They said that we cannot be marking like that.
08:16It's not just a matter of fatigue.
08:17It's also how your brain processes it.
08:20It's not a linear process that you scroll down and you scroll down.
08:23We often go back, we look at the same students' different answers when we take decisions.
08:30So this should not be done.
08:31One, they are saying that this could not be a fair assessment even though they are some of our best
08:36teachers.
08:38And secondly, they said that normally you talkтАж
08:41So are you saying that the onlineтАж
08:42Are you saying the online scriptтАж
08:45Are you saying the online script monitoring system should be replaced by a manual method?
08:50Is that the better way?
08:51Yes, yes, absolutely better way.
08:55We cannot be replacing human agency and cognitive processes which are meant to be done in a certain way by
09:02something which is completely mindless.
09:04You don't scroll an answer sheet and then mark it in a linear manner.
09:08And then people are, you know, people are conscious because they feel they are being monitored.
09:14The camera is there.
09:15If someone took longer, they said they got a phone call.
09:18They got a phone call in the center.
09:19Why is this person taking so long on this question?
09:22This is, we are not robots and we shouldn't be marking, making humans into robots.
09:31You know, it is so unfair on the teachers.
09:33Professor Sharma, you were shaking your head whenтАж
09:37You are saying, ma'am, it's unfair on the teacher, it's unfair on the student.
09:41But Professor Sharma, you have a different viewpoint.
09:43You seem to believe that the technology is robust.
09:47Completely different viewpoint.
09:48I have said, I have tested this technology.
09:52I have seen it working.
09:53Look, we have millions of transcripts to be evaluated.
09:58And for a fair assessment, we have to send our transcripts to far-off places.
10:04The copies from Bhopal have to go to Tiruchirapalli to be evaluated.
10:09Now, transporting them also causes so many difficulties.
10:13Technology has worked very well.
10:15If there are mistakes, I would say this CBSC will have to answer.
10:20But then the technology works.
10:21I have seen it.
10:22Look, theтАж
10:23No, but you can't have aтАж
10:24You know, the technology mayтАж
10:26Sir, the technology works, but you cannot haveтАж
10:28You cannot have papers being swapped in the manner that they were in Vedan's case.
10:32And the way he was attackedтАж
10:34I mean, he had to eventually go on to social media in a way to raise his concern.
10:38And that also raises the view.
10:40How many parents, students can be able to do that, are willing to take that chance?
10:44You've heard from another student.
10:46He and his friends all want re-evaluation.
10:48Professor Rampal, is this about technology versus manual methods?
10:52Or something more fundamental, as I said about the scale of the exam, that requires a very different evaluation system?
10:59It is about assessment.
11:01It is about human decision-making.
11:03It is humans who are reading answers and deciding and giving assessment.
11:08It is not technology.
11:09So you cannot be pushing technology and even then de-escalating.
11:15I mean, you're actually impacting the efficiency and the judgment and the discretion of human beings.
11:21And this is what I've been talking today the whole day with teachers who do this.
11:26And who say they cannot.
11:28I mean, they said they're not happy and they don't think that they're being forced into a fair system of
11:32assessment,
11:32which normally they would do it in a different way.
11:38No, no, no.
11:39I completely disagree.
11:40Dr. Acharya, where do you stand?
11:42I completely disagree, Rajesh.
11:42Dr. Acharya, one minute, one minute.
11:44One minute.
11:45See, right from day one.
11:47I've heard both of you.
11:49Yeah, when the dry testing was done for two days in six schools and I was one of the observer.
11:56So we found out a lot of glitches and it was not user-friendly at the beginning.
12:01So we gave our observation report to CBSE and accordingly the agency also improvised.
12:07But when we were talking to CBSE people, we were thinking that in the beginning they will test it on
12:15a non-academic subject,
12:17on a minor subject like painting or music or physical education to see whether the technology is working or not.
12:23But after nine or ten days, we came to know that everything is tested on all the papers in whole
12:29class 12.
12:30Well, that was really surprising because our evaluators neither are oriented nor are given training, nor are given practice.
12:38Even I would say from the point of view of students, they never knew that their paper will be checked
12:44online.
12:45Because there are certain instructions which needs to be given to the students if they know that their online checking
12:51is happening.
12:55You know, I want to ask you, Ibrahim, you're listening to all these views.
12:59Are you confident of the way the system is being evaluated or do you fear the worst?
13:06Are you and your friends feeling that something has gone wrong?
13:14Well, I have given up all my hope on CBSE and as I am done with class 12 examinations, I
13:19hope to never encounter such an agency as CBSE.
13:22The disappointment in this is such major that I cannot comprehend it well.
13:26And like Sir said, that this technology has been in experimentation for several years, yet we still face these issues
13:33of copy swapping and incorrect marking.
13:36And this is such an unacceptable move from the CBSE as a whole.
13:40And even though the technology has been in several experimentation, we have still failed to provide a proper marking and
13:48deserved marking to students who have been working hard all their lives and preparing for such a big examination of
13:54class 12 and yet have faced these issues.
14:00I'm going to leave it there.
14:01At the end of the day, we have to listen to voices of students.
14:04We've got to listen to voices of stakeholders.
14:06There are different viewpoints on how the technology can be used.
14:10But let's not believe that one system is foolproof.
14:13I think what Vedant's case has shown is that no system is fully foolproof and we need greater attention paid
14:21to detail.
14:22Don't hurry with any system.
14:24Find ways in which you can restore confidence in parents, in teachers and most importantly, in students.
14:32I appreciate my guests joining me on my talking point this evening.
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