- 2 days ago
John, Kevin, and Barbara examine how post-Latter Rain and Voice of Healing networks helped lay the groundwork for today's blend of Word of Faith teaching, New Apostolic Reformation ideology, and aggressive Christian nationalism. They trace lines from Gordon Lindsay and early identity-influenced revival culture to Andrew Wommack's ministry in Woodland Park, Colorado, highlighting how a seemingly gentle Bible teacher fronts a sophisticated dominionist project aimed at reshaping local government, education, and civic life through Charis Bible College and the Truth and Liberty Coalition.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:17 From Latter Rain to Modern Dominion Theology
11:18 The Woodland Park Transformation
17:06 Christ for the Nations and Word of Faith Roots
23:05 Financial Control, Poverty, and Exploitation
28:15 Youth With a Mission and Parallel Power Structures
34:48 Espionage, Revival Networks, and Hidden Agendas
40:00 Missionary Culture, Authority, and Accountability
46:15 Faith as a Political Weapon
52:00 Recognizing False Fruit and Spiritual Abuse
57:27 Closing Reflections
______________________
Pelligrino Walk:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPviIYcBQYTk491wXZWBYzw
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:17 From Latter Rain to Modern Dominion Theology
11:18 The Woodland Park Transformation
17:06 Christ for the Nations and Word of Faith Roots
23:05 Financial Control, Poverty, and Exploitation
28:15 Youth With a Mission and Parallel Power Structures
34:48 Espionage, Revival Networks, and Hidden Agendas
40:00 Missionary Culture, Authority, and Accountability
46:15 Faith as a Political Weapon
52:00 Recognizing False Fruit and Spiritual Abuse
57:27 Closing Reflections
______________________
Pelligrino Walk:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPviIYcBQYTk491wXZWBYzw
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00To be continued...
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti.
00:46Kevin, Barbara, it's good to have you back.
00:49And I'm drinking my machine gun coffee so that I can be energized for this.
00:54But it actually, the machine guns might, I don't know, in a strange way, relate to our subject matter.
00:59Sadly, it is.
01:00I think it will.
01:01It might.
01:02You guys don't know this, but I have been, as I mentioned right before we started recording,
01:07I've been pumping recordings out because in the holiday months, I get all kinds of cancellations.
01:13So I'm doing a few of them myself.
01:14But I'm diving deeper into trying to put together some of the research that I have done into the background.
01:22I'm trying to dig and see more, get more insight into the creation of latter rain.
01:27Because I, based on the trails of history that I'm going back to the birth of latter rain, I'm seeing all of these ministries covering up their past.
01:37And I've got this thing inside me that says, okay, if you're covering up, I want to know what it is.
01:43What in the world are you covering up?
01:45Well, the deeper I go, the darker it gets and the more sinister.
01:48And long story short, I have started to combine more of my research into the podcasts I'm doing myself.
01:56This one that we're recording now will probably air in January.
01:59So the things I'm talking about, I think, will come out before this.
02:03But Gordon Lindsay, he and William Branham, as we've mentioned, they created this platform for creating Hero Worship,
02:11the Voice of Healing magazine, which turned into the Voice of Healing Revivals.
02:15It spawned off the – well, it came on the heels of latter rain, but for a period of time, it was spawning off new latter rain ministries.
02:23And Moral Roberts was part of this.
02:25T.L. Osborne, Word of Faith guy, was an editor in it.
02:28And Branham, obviously, was spearheading it.
02:31And I'm diving deeper into Gordon Lindsay, and I'm finding things that are just really sketchy.
02:38Gordon Lindsay was a – he was a four-square minister, Amy Semple McPherson's church, left the ministry.
02:46His district was right adjacent to North Battleford, where all of this originated.
02:52Well, there was a period of time he left his ministry to start publishing books on Christian identity.
02:57And that was in mid-40s, I think, maybe 1940.
03:02Fast forward to when latter rain was birthed, after it started sweeping through the nation.
03:07He started publishing Christian nationalism ideas and Christian identity ideas in Voice of Healing.
03:12But you can't tell it.
03:14If you just simply read it, you can't tell it.
03:17But one of the charts – and I go through this in one of the podcasts that I did – he's got these charts of when the – basically, he's implying that the doomsday is going to come.
03:27And he will say things like, it's a decision point in 1948.
03:31Well, when you read that in today's world, you're thinking, okay, well, 1948's come and gone.
03:36There's no – there's no really value in this.
03:40But if you go back and you look at the timeline of Christian identity and Christian nationalism,
03:46Gerald L.K. Smith, who was a leader of the California clan, working with Wesley Swift as his right-hand man,
03:53the most notorious Christian identity leader in the nation, they had created a political platform of Christian nationalism.
04:02And they were running in the years that – for these timelines.
04:06So Gordon Lindsay is saying, we have a decision point.
04:09And, oh, by the way, here's this Christian nationalist guy.
04:12And then he's saying phrases in his timelines that are in full alignment with Christian nationalism and Christian identity.
04:19And he gives these terms like ages.
04:21We had the age of the New Deal.
04:24And he's referring to all of the Christian nationalists, Christian identity people were strongly against Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the New Deal.
04:32They called it the Jew Deal, which is offensive.
04:36But anyway, all of this was birthed on the heels of the Christian identity movement turning racist and turning very, very militant.
04:46And we start to see in the timeline, if you align them up, you're starting to see people becoming weaponized in these movements, which leads us to our conversation today.
04:57Exactly.
04:58And I think we were just talking about machine gun coffee or that is – okay.
05:04Well, and interesting with what you've been studying with 1948, Israel becomes a nation.
05:09There's so many things.
05:10Yeah, and it seems to all head back to the latter rain.
05:14And even what we're going to talk about today, a lot of word of faith, which has come out of it.
05:21But to get to the point, we're talking about a ministry out of Woodland Park, Colorado.
05:30It's Andrew Womack Ministries International and Karis Bible College.
05:35And Barb happened to grow up in Woodland Park and knows a lot about the town growing up there, a tiny little town right next to Pikes Peak in Colorado.
05:46And we have this man and a movement, Andrew Womack, who appears to be a humble grandfather-type figure, just really calm and all that in his appearance when he's on the platform.
06:04But almost a maniacal takeover is in place of the town of Woodland Park itself as kind of a prototype of what he wants to do to take over the nation, to take over the world, which is really a dominionist agenda.
06:23And I'll pass this over to Barb in a second, but I wanted to read just an excerpt from an article that was written in 2021, May of 2021.
06:35And the title of the article is, Andrew Womack urges followers to take over Colorado City.
06:41So in 2014, Andrew Womack moved his ministry from Colorado Springs to the nearby city of Woodland Park to launch Karis Bible College.
06:51Now he would like his followers to run the city and the surrounding Teller County.
06:58Man, as many people as we have here in the school board or in the school here, we ought to take over Woodland Park, said Womack during an April Citizens Academy that was hosted by the 501c4 political organization he founded in 2017, Truth and Liberty Coalition.
07:19Remember that.
07:20And that was designed to help believers get involved in politics.
07:24The county ought to be totally dominated by believers.
07:29Now, the interesting thing about this is I was looking this up.
07:32That's a quote from him.
07:33Yeah, that was a quote from him.
07:35The Truth and Liberty Coalition this year had a conference September 11 through 13 at Karis Bible College.
07:45And the speakers that were scheduled for this event were Andrew Womack, a pastor from Detroit named Lorenzo Sewell, and Charlie Kirk, who was murdered the day before.
07:57But this is the crowd.
08:01This is the Lance Wall now crowd, the Seven Mountains crowd, combined word of faith with positive confession, faith as a force, guaranteed health and wealth, all the things.
08:14This is Dominion nationalism and really Christian supremacy at an extreme, extreme level.
08:23So with that, I'd like to pass it over to you, Barb, because you grew up in this town and, you know, far different town before 2014.
08:32Yeah, I've had family in that area for over 52 years, and we, you know, it was a small, sleepy town of a couple thousand when I grew up.
08:42It's almost 10 or so now.
08:44But I think one of the things that has been alarming to me is just the duplicity with which he's come into the town.
08:54Obviously, it's, you know, there's lots of churches in the town, different denominations, all the things that you would expect.
09:03And growing up there, it's one of those towns where people, you know, as a kid, I always used to say it, especially in high school, people know what you did before you did it.
09:12So everybody kind of knew everybody.
09:14There was one high school, there was one grocery store, you know, a couple banks eventually, you know.
09:19I remember the big thing was when we got McDonald's my junior year in high school, because we didn't really have fast food.
09:26And everything was at Pizza Hut, because that was our big fancy restaurant.
09:29So every, like, school cast party, baseball win, celebration, every kind of thing was at Pizza Hut.
09:38And so, obviously, people grow and towns evolve.
09:41Where I get concerned about this, and this is what's weird as someone who professes Christ as a Christian, Colorado Springs became a hotbed of ministries because the Colorado government changed the law for 501c3s.
09:59And they got a big tax break.
10:00So a lot of people moved in, moved their ministries into Colorado Springs.
10:04I don't remember, I just remember when I was a kid, it was a big issue, and there was some drama, because when Dobson put up his focus on the family, he put it in a big swath where there was an elk migration path.
10:18And people were trying to protest the focus on the family where he was putting it, because at that time, there was nothing out there.
10:24But what's interesting is, you would think a town that is, I would say, mostly pretty conservative, very Christian, would be excited about having a Bible college.
10:39And, you know, but what's happened is when he moved up there, it's turned into kind of a takeover.
10:46And he says things like taking over the town.
10:48He says things like, it's a prototype city.
10:52They're doing 11 in the state of Colorado.
10:54As prototypes on how to take over the political environment unto, he calls it Christianity, but it looks like Christian supremacy to me.
11:05And it can't coexist with democracy, as democracy is defined by our government, which is really interesting.
11:13And so what some of the fallout, John, has been that's really been alarming is people that I've known my whole life, that I've been witnessing to and sharing the gospel with.
11:23Some know Jesus, and some still are, you know, I'm still talking to, now we're going, wait a second, maybe I'm not a Christian.
11:31If this guy is Christian, if this is what Christ looks like, then maybe I'm not a Christian.
11:36And so they're wondering about leaving their churches.
11:38Then I have a whole new group that are like, well, if this is what God is, because basically they took over the school board.
11:44And 70% of the teachers were forced out.
11:49There's been businesses there.
11:50We're going to probably eventually in our podcast, we have several people that have run businesses there.
11:56One has been, had been a ranch and a children's camp since 1946.
12:01These are people that have been in the area, that have built ranchers, that have lived there, their families have lived there for generations.
12:06And he's coming in, professing to be a Christian, but doing things in the darkest, most evil way.
12:15And it's this bait and switch thing where it's supposedly of Jesus, except for it's not a servant heart.
12:24It's not coming in the fruit of the spirit.
12:26It's not about even evangelizing the people in the town that don't know Jesus.
12:32It's about bringing in the brethren who basically live at poverty level.
12:36Several of them live in their vehicles.
12:38There's, in my parents' neighborhood, they have houses where it's basically like 20 people that are Womack brethren live in the house because they've been told to give everything to the ministry.
12:51So, they have to all kind of be in these, like, commune houses in neighborhoods.
12:56It's really sad because a lot of the followers, they preach the prosperity word of faith thing, but the followers have to live in poverty because they're supposed to give everything to the ministry.
13:09Meanwhile, Womack's got, like, a 45-acre ranch in an adjacent little town, and apparently the compound for the Karis Bible College is, like, billions.
13:23I can't even remember.
13:25We'll have to look and get the real figures.
13:26But they're very excited about how much money they have to build.
13:33And it's just been alarming the way they're trying to take over things.
13:41There's so much to unpack there, and you brought back so many memories that I had growing up.
13:47I've mentioned before, I grew up everywhere between Arizona and South Carolina, moving from place to place.
13:54I spent a large part of my time in Kansas, but went to church in the Ozark Mountains in this little town in Missouri.
14:03And everybody in the town of Missouri lived kind of like you said.
14:07There was a pizza hut, and that was the place where we all went because that was – literally, there was no restaurant in the town where the church was.
14:14But we would drive to the nearest town, which had a pizza hut, and that's where we ate almost every Sunday.
14:19And I can't tell you how many pizzas I've had.
14:22They had a – anyway, it was a good memory.
14:25I could go off on a tangent, and I'll try not to.
14:28But the people of the church would go to this passion play where there was this big, massive statue of Jesus that was called Christ of the Ozarks.
14:39And when you're in the movement and you're – especially as a teenager, you don't know all of the sinister stuff under the hood.
14:46You look at it, and you think it's just a bunch of kids.
14:48They're worshiping Jesus, and they're going to see a passion play about the Christ.
14:52Nobody told us that the statue erected and the play was directed – the whole thing was established by one of the most notorious leaders in Christian identity.
15:05And only after working with Charles, as I'm piecing all this together, I start to realize, wait a minute.
15:10The town where this church was, which seemed like a simple, humble church, was right in the heart of the mess,
15:17where all of the Christian identity people just came and went to hide, right?
15:22And it's all connected to the things that we're talking about.
15:26Charles mentioned in his research that his church, whenever they would talk about the coming end of days,
15:33they knew where all the weapons were whenever the war came.
15:38And that's one of the themes that they're not going to tell you from behind the pulpit.
15:41There's this coming war.
15:43In Christian identity, it's a race war.
15:45It's – William Branham said specifically, blacks and whites will rise up and fight again,
15:51and something like the blacks will die like – I can't remember how he said it.
15:55I don't want to misquote.
15:57But it is a theme of a coming race war as part of the end of days theology.
16:02I did not realize any of this when I was in the church.
16:06And now that I'm researching identity, racism, clan, all of these things,
16:11there are multiple facets and components to it.
16:14But one of them is just simply this.
16:17You go to a church, and it may seem like a normal church.
16:20It might be Baptist.
16:20It might be Pentecostal.
16:22And all of the brethren who are – some of them deacons.
16:25They're just humble, simple men.
16:28And during the daylight, everything's fine, and they're happy, and you would never suspect it.
16:33And at night, under the cover of darkness, they're doing all of the things that you read about in the newspapers whenever it goes wrong.
16:38And you're mentioning places that right before I called you for this podcast, right before we connected,
16:47I was talking to another person, and their family is from the area that you're talking about.
16:52So there is a Branhamite concentration right there where you're talking about.
16:56And I'm not saying Womack is connected to Branhamism, but in weird ways, he is connected to what I mentioned earlier,
17:03Gordon Lindsay and Christ for the Nations.
17:05In fact, as you were talking, I had to pull it up to refresh my memory, but he mentions right on his website
17:11that he and his wife went to hear a conference in 1972 at Christ for the Nations Institute.
17:18That is the school that Gordon Lindsay founded.
17:21It was a result of Lindsay and Branham.
17:23And it's interesting because, like I said before, all of these people are hiding their past.
17:28Nowhere have I found yet to date where he mentions who was the speaker, but he gives great reverence
17:34to the speaker that changed his life at Christ for the Nations and taught him the word of faith.
17:40Now, there have been numerous ministers connected to Christ for the Nations, some of them sinister
17:46characters in our history.
17:48If I remember correctly, Hobart Freeman was attending the conferences during that time, and Hobart
17:54Freeman led his entire cult into massive destruction.
17:58We talk about that every Tuesday with Chinno.
18:00But there's been some very notorious sinister people in Christ for the Nations, and Womack
18:06refuses, from all appearances, he refuses to tell him who taught him the word of faith.
18:11He just says, I went to Christ for the Nations for it.
18:14So here's Andrew Womack teaching the Christian identity and apparently the militant version of
18:20it, and Christian nationalism, and he got his inspiration from the very heart of what I'm
18:26researching.
18:27Oh, absolutely.
18:28And I think it's clear also that he's been under Kenneth Copeland.
18:35And I watched a video one day, this was a couple years ago, but where Kenneth Copeland was
18:42actually anointing Andrew Womack, and Andrew Womack has admitted the fact that Kenneth Copeland
18:50has been a mentor in his life.
18:53And so when you consider the extremes of Kenneth Copeland doctrine, little gods, and just the
19:01faith in faith, and all of these things.
19:05Well, like the other thing.
19:06Yeah.
19:07Because Kenneth Copeland's grandson.
19:09Well, right down the street, there's a church at the entrance of town called Legacy Church,
19:15which is Kenneth Copeland's grandson.
19:18And interesting about that church, there was a situation where he was actually just polling
19:27the congregation, not polling them, but asking the congregation for money so that he can buy
19:34a private jet, like his grandfather.
19:38So crazy, crazy word of faith stuff.
19:42And I think that's, and even, you know, when you're talking, John, I'm thinking about the
19:48connections.
19:49And one of the things that we had met with a reporter a while ago who did a several-part story
19:58on Womack and the compound, and so he kind of gave us some information, and we did some
20:04research.
20:05But one of the things that I think Kevin knows more about than me, but the current, so Andrew
20:12stepped out of Karis and has his Truth and Liberty thing, which is some other name.
20:18But it's, so Karis has been handed over, the Bible college, so they're training people
20:23up, but he's, it's still on the same property.
20:25It's interesting that Andrew stepped out of Karis right as these articles went out by
20:31the Colorado Times recorder, exposing what had been happening up there at the secret Bible
20:37college.
20:37Right, well, and what is interesting, there's so many things, but one of the notable things
20:42is the person that he put in charge of Karis now was a former, uh...
20:48Yeah, I'll get, I'll get into that.
20:49There's, um, there was something in Pennsylvania, it was back in the 90s called the Narrowgate
20:55Cult, and, um, and basically it was an authoritarian-type cult that started actually at Messiah College
21:05in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, but there were teachings in that group that were largely based
21:13on Andrew Womack's teachings.
21:16And so this particular man, uh, led this, this cult for about four years, authoritarian, sexual
21:24devian, deviancy, all kinds of crazy stuff, where actually in the end his wife and his child
21:32ended up leaving in the middle of the night, uh, all based on Andrew Womack's teachings.
21:37Now, the interesting thing about this is, fast forward from the 90s to 2000, I believe it's
21:4519, and the man who was inspired by Andrew Womack and teaching that destructive doctrine in this
21:54cult is now Andrew Womack Ministries International Senior Vice President.
22:00This president, this very man that created this cult has been hired by Andrew Womack.
22:08I think he was prosecuted in the state of Pennsylvania.
22:11I mean, there's a-
22:12Ministries and Karis Bible College.
22:14So this is the, the destructive nature, and so what we're looking at, we want to expose this
22:20stuff to, to warn, because we see all the kids, like when we're in town, you know, that
22:25are hanging out at Starbucks or the coffee shops, and, and they've got their Bibles, but
22:30they don't understand the theology necessarily behind it, how destructive it is, and how anti-Christian
22:37it is, especially when you look at the idea of the little gods doctrine.
22:41Right.
22:42And it's been interesting.
22:43I just have to put my Bible on the table at a Starbucks in the town, the one that is there
22:49now, and, um, the brethren will come, and they come over, and they say, are you a brethren?
22:55And then, yes, yeah, Brother Womack is what they call him, and they're the brethren of
23:00Brother Womack, and, and it's, I've had some, I mean, I've met some amazingly delightful
23:06people, um, and they just, they just seem to be all in, and they're trying to run after
23:11the Lord, and then there's a part in the conversation where, I don't know how to explain it, but it's
23:18like this glazed eye look comes over, and it goes from, we're just telling your stories
23:23to, like, I, I, I don't know what it is, but it's not, it's not the Lord, and I, you know,
23:30you start to hear the giving up everything, we sold everything, we, we used to live here,
23:35and, um, and again, I don't, whatever people choose to do, um, to follow the Lord, um, but
23:45I, I really wonder when you have, uh, uh, health and wealth and prosperity word of faith
23:52being preached from the pulpit by people who are living in very big houses, driving very
23:56fancy cars, and then everyone that serves them is poor as dirt, and some of the people
24:04are living in their cars, I mean, there's been horrific stories, it's been a, a town council,
24:08they're trying to get on this, on the council of the city, and the city finally has woken
24:13up to what's going on, but there's been issues with people, like, living in their cars, and
24:18because they're trying to be near the compound, and there's not the accommodations for all the
24:25influx of people that came in, um, and also they don't have money, um, you know, and, and
24:34things like. Well, at 8,000 feet in elevation, it's not the greatest thing to be living in
24:38your car in the winter. Yeah, it's more like 9,000. Part of the problem. Well, and I, I
24:43think one of the other issues is they keep making promises to the city, because they're
24:47a 501c3 and c4, they're tax exempt, so all these people are now coming in, they have this
24:54massive compound, um, they're using city water, city, you know, police, city, everything,
25:01and the problem is they're not paying taxes, so they built up these new dorms, and they
25:06were like, we're going to build, we're going to pay taxes on the dorms, because it's going
25:09to take more from the city, and then they reneged on it, and got a lawyer team, and said,
25:15we don't, we've decided we're not going to, and what are you going to do? Um, so it's just
25:20really disingenuous, it's not the Lord, it's not what Jesus calls us to be, um, servants
25:26of light and, and truth, and... No, and that's, that's one of the reasons why we want
25:30to speak, too, it's because of the people that, that we know there and elsewhere, that
25:34this is not Jesus, this is not the Jesus of the Bible, this is something altogether different
25:40that, that we're seeing, and, uh, we're seeing in a, in a lot of different places now.
25:45It is widespread, and it's very troubling. I, um, you, you probably don't know this, it
25:50has just now kind of kicked off, and in fact, I think this Thursday may be the first one where
25:56it's, uh, actually a, a podcast series, but I've been doing a podcast, I started a podcast
26:00series with a lady who was in youth for a youth with a mission, who'd gone on outreach
26:06programs, and escaped it after a horrendous story. She gave, she gave me her story on
26:12one of our Fridays, our, our stories on Friday, and she became a licensed, uh, counselor, and
26:20she helps training, uh, she has a ministry training and helping people who are disconnecting
26:27or disassociating a lot of body somatic, uh, training. Anyway, we are unpacking youth with
26:33a mission because this is very concerning to me. I haven't yet came to the point where
26:38I'm ready to say whether or not it's a destructive cult, but there are so many signs and similarities
26:45that you have to just say, well, that's a, that's a red warning flag. This is, this is
26:50very dangerous, what is happening. And some of the stories she's telling me, it's just like,
26:54oh my gosh, man, I can't imagine letting children, youth being involved in something like this when
27:01it's so potential for a disaster. So we're unpacking that, and I was trying to remember
27:08where have, why have I been researching Andrew Womack? And so while you were talking, I was digging
27:13through all my notes and I found it, the, uh, Karis ministries, they, they actually, a lot of
27:19the students went alongside of the youth with a mission missionaries and they would have, you
27:25know, a meeting coffee shops. It wasn't, I don't think they were the same basis, but there's this
27:30weird, the mission doesn't seem to be about the mission they're describing, which is another part
27:35of the story that's making me want to dig deeper. There seems to be something else going on
27:39and you see the youth with the mission going into a place. Well, right alongside it, you see
27:45missionaries from, that are involved with Karis, uh, Bible college and you have to wonder, well,
27:51do you need both sets of missionaries? What, what's going on here? It doesn't make any sense. If
27:56you're going to convert the people and you're converting them to Jesus Christ and you have
27:59two ministries that are very much aligned with each other, they're running in parallel, not in
28:04opposition. Why do you need both bases? So not to give too many secrets because we're going to be
28:10unpacking that as we go forward with youth and a mission. I came across it because of this. And
28:16this was like a rabbit trail that never ends. When you start digging in this, now I'm bringing back
28:21memories of research that I had in the sixties where people were going into literally going into
28:28lockdown as militant extremists. And you wonder, is this the precursor to that? And I, I'm not
28:35qualified to say, but it looks very bad what's happening. I mean, we have our own stories with
28:40YWAM. So that's a, that's a whole other. How about how close the YWAM base is in Colorado?
28:45Yeah, there is a YWAM base in Colorado. Not that far. And, um, and then the one where the shooting
28:51was is just up the road towards Denver a little bit. Um, I, I do think there's some major red flags
28:59with YWAM. I think there's a lot of the bases, um, even just traveling overseas as I have, I've run
29:06into people in country and, um, my takeaway has always been, it's alarming to me how young they are
29:15and how unequipped they are for what they're in charge of. Um, when I've been in other, other
29:20countries, seeing them lead, trying to lead stuff. And we have come across even just, and when we were
29:26living in the desert, working with people living full-time in their vans and in tents, we've come
29:32a lot across a lot of kids that were former YWAMers that are now like living in their cars because
29:38they're so disillusioned. They're so burnt out. Um, they were, they were put in charge of things.
29:44They had no business being in charge of, and now think, you know, hate God, hate Jesus,
29:52hate the ministries. Um, and we found ourselves multiple times talking to kids in their late
29:58twenties, early thirties, or turned to drugs. And again, um, once, once or twice that happens,
30:06it's like, okay, but we, we've seen enough now over the years that we have actually kind of had some
30:13conversations about what's really going on. Um, because the fruit, um, and there, there is,
30:22there's so much even with, um, the family book with Jeff Charlotte, just about some of the,
30:27some of these organizations being a front for something else that has to do with government
30:32or with, you know, even changing the governmental leaders in different countries. Um, it's really
30:39alarming because Jesus seems to be nowhere to be found. It's, he's more a vehicle to get somebody
30:46in a country to do another nefarious thing. And I, you know, I, I don't know to the degree that is,
30:52but it's definitely happening enough that it's scary.
30:55And I think, uh, I think with the, with the roots of, um, of YWAM with, uh, Lauren Cunningham and,
31:02uh, the seven mountain mandate, although it was less militant, the burning heart group,
31:07Bill Bright, uh, names like this is, uh, as we go back and look at it, I think, I think there's
31:12definitely some concerns with, uh, with the YWAM group and, and really more of a, a dominion agenda,
31:21um, with, with the entire group. That's not even center. It's really a decentralized type of
31:28organization, right?
31:29Right. I, I think they, they're, that at some point, and John probably knows more about this,
31:35people started to recognize that there were certain buzzwords that you probably shouldn't say publicly
31:39if people, you wanted your ministry to survive, especially after the William Branham stuff and
31:45the Jim Jones stuff. So it's really interesting to me. I think that's part of the reason we got
31:50duped at IHOP because we didn't know the language. And so when we started hearing things and I'm like,
31:56okay, that kind of fits, or that's a new idea on that passage.
32:00He changed meetings on us. That's what they did.
32:01Yeah, that's, that's a new, that's a different spin on that, that passage, but okay, I'm open to
32:06what God might be doing. And, and then you're like, but I don't think he's doing that. Um,
32:11and so I think it's interesting. So these guys, it just seems like there's, there's so many of them.
32:17And we were, we were kind of tongue in cheek. We've been having conversations with Chris
32:21Berglund, who does the dreaming for Lou Engel. And he's been pushing back comments on YouTube.
32:27But one of the things that I told Kevin, I respect about him is at least he says on his website that
32:34he's about manifest sons of God. I'm like, you know, I don't agree with it. I think it's not,
32:40it's heresy, but at least he's not trying to do the bait and switch. It's not that it's not that
32:45when it really, it absolutely is that. So, you know, for that, at least, at least he's being
32:51honest. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
32:58Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements
33:04into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical
33:09Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the
33:16compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with
33:23links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and
33:29documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the
33:36cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,
33:41be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
33:47On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
33:52It took me a long time after leaving to realize that there were reasons why things were not as they
33:59appeared. And the deeper I dug, you know, when I first discovered the connection between the clan and
34:04all of this, I thought, well, the clan must be the agenda. But I'm starting to understand the clan was just
34:10the vehicle, there was a big, bigger, larger agenda, because you see multiple players who aren't really
34:16aligned with each other, coming into the revivals, and you might attend a revival. And here's this guy from
34:23the FBI, who's sitting in this corner undercover. Here's this guy from the clan. Here's this guy from
34:28Germany. And you start to look at it and you think, well, what is this? This doesn't really
34:33seem like religion. And you mentioned the family, which it starts me thinking down those pathways.
34:40And I really try to contain myself because you could very easily get branded as a conspiracy
34:46theorist. But I will say factually, I can say these things factually. William Branham's campaign
34:52manager was the Baron William T. Frere von Blumberg, who was the direct adopted cousin of Hitler's
35:01Minister of Defense, Warner von Blumberg. And he was a director in the family. So you're talking about
35:07the family, this, this is one of the big guys, right? He sponsored William Branham's tours all over,
35:13he and Paul Kane and William Branham went into Germany. And during that time in Germany,
35:19they set up a foundation that literally established the and kickstarted the ministry of Paul Schaefer,
35:28who went to Chile, founded Colonia Dignidad. And this was the colony wherein all the Nazis escaped
35:34into the colony into Argentina. Well, I haven't talked about it much. I don't want to go too far,
35:40because the moment you edge into current events and current things happening, that's whenever
35:45you start to see weird things in your technology and weird people and black vans following you,
35:50which I have had. But I can talk about historically, there were places in Branhamism,
35:56some places in Canada I'm familiar with, different various places, where there was this large
36:02concentration of migrants from Germany. And when I saw this, as younger, I thought, well,
36:09this is just unusual. But now you understand declassified documents like Operation Paperclip,
36:15where they were taking the most important minds in Germany, and divvying them up among all of the
36:23people who all of the nations who had conquered Germany, some of them coming to the United States,
36:28some in Argentina, etc. And you look at it, and you're just scratching your head thinking,
36:32wait a minute, and you start to wonder, was this really religious? And one of the other things that is
36:39coming out in a podcast that it's not out yet while we're talking, I had come across some FBI
36:46declassified documents that was trying to determine was the Baron William T. Frere von Blumberg a spy.
36:54And I started looking at it, and they're trailing him because he is under the guise of this religious
37:01ministry. But he's doing things that you just don't do as a religious minister. He's having escorts into his
37:08hotel room, male escorts into his hotel rooms. And I'm thinking, you know, I talked with Paul Cain,
37:15and he mentioned that Germany trip. And he said, in that Germany trip, Branham was never allowed back.
37:21And at the time, I'm thinking, well, maybe it was because of the homosexual thing. And
37:25when I combine this with William T. Frere von Blumberg, I'm like, well,
37:29now you've got two people who were homosexual in the same hotel at the same time, actually three,
37:34because also Schaeffer was. But as I take a step further back, well, no, Germany does not want
37:41people who are in espionage to come into their country and invade through religion. So now you
37:48have to wonder, well, yes, this was about religion to some extent. On the surface, they're preaching
37:53Jesus. But it wasn't really the Jesus of the Bible. So you can clearly tell these are men who don't
37:59know. I can assure you, Branham did not know the Bible. I doubt he ever read it. Why was he preaching
38:05it? And you go through all of the lines of men who are in other countries as missionaries, they have
38:11really one job to study the Bible and spread the gospel. But what they're spreading actually isn't the
38:16gospel. So you have to wonder, what is this? And like I said, my conspiracy theory, mine, I want to go
38:23there. But for the sake of religious history, I don't go there.
38:27Darrell Bock So, John, it's interesting, because I have a quote here from Andrew Womack
38:33concerning that idea that maybe this is about something else. Well, he says revival is not coming
38:39through the prayer closet. He said this at the Truth and Liberty conference. He said revival is
38:47coming through the ballot box. As well, Lance Walnell once said on one of Womack's Truth and Liberty
38:55broadcasts, it's about how to storm the cockpit and take over the plane of a nation. And I think that's
39:03what we're talking about. You know, you were mentioning Branham and the idea that that he was
39:09using religion, you know, but it was really a political movement and money movement. You wonder
39:17about this stuff, especially Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel, what you were saying before,
39:24Barb, about like the kids having to just sell everything and move up there so that they can,
39:30you know, be a part of this man's vision. And it's so incredibly sad. And since we've been
39:39duped ourselves and been involved in things that we shouldn't have been, we want to get the word out
39:46there and tell people, no, those little things like where you were just mentioning, John, like you're
39:51in it and you're like, something about that doesn't sound right. It's those things, those times that we
39:58need to say, wait a minute, I need to move away from this. That's the thing. One of the things in
40:01my travels pre-Kevin, you know, I spent a lot of time in different countries in Asia and
40:08across Europe and in Alaska. And it's really interesting to me, what I discovered is interesting
40:17that a lot of people that I met that were missionaries, called themselves missionaries in
40:22the mission field. Instead of what you talked about a couple seconds ago, John, about just reading
40:28their Bible and preaching the Gospel, what I found was a lot of the people were pushed out of churches
40:36in the United States because they couldn't, they didn't agree with the leadership and they wouldn't
40:41conform to whatever the doctrine was of that denomination. So, they got offended because they
40:47weren't allowed to be on leadership in an American church. So, they either fled even to Alaska, still
40:52America, but, and decided to, you know, they're not the best and brightest always of the United States.
41:01A lot of them are people that wanted to run stuff, found it to be a really easy thing. You know,
41:10and I've told Kevin, you get some sort of special VIP status, it feels like, in a lot of nations,
41:18just by being from the United States. And so, a lot of people have capitalized on that over the last,
41:25and I've met so many people that are missionaries overseas, that their families are a mess,
41:32they don't appear to read the Gospel, their fruit is not good, but they're living in a cheaper
41:38kind of culture. So, they have these huge houses or they have, and again, not always, not every,
41:45and maybe not even most, but there were enough that over the years, I've kind of talked to other
41:51people in global missions of like, okay, how are we training people? And how are we knowing what
41:56they're about and what their core belief is? And how are we bringing people back if they're over there?
42:02Because the health and well-being of the missionary should be important to the shepherd that sends
42:10that missionary out. And if that missionary is just like, you know, independent, I'm just out here,
42:16and I started a church, that's a suspicious thing to me. And I just, there's a lot of things that I've
42:26seen in global missions for the last 25 almost years that I've gone, hey, wait a second, like,
42:34how come we're not discipling down? How come we're not pulling people out if they are, you know,
42:40having problems? You know, I talked to a guy in an Eastern Bloc country, and he was like,
42:48I don't even know if I believe the Bible anymore, but he was over there with one of the big missions
42:52organizations. And I said, okay, then that's your, you need to come home. Like, first of all,
42:57you need to get right with the Lord. And second of all, what are you doing over there if it's not
43:02preaching the gospel and you're now questioning the Bible? Like, and I think...
43:07What you're saying kind of reminds me, John, I read your book on Roy E. Davis as well,
43:13and Branham, how back in the day, they would go from town to town. And once they got to the next town,
43:18right, they wouldn't know in the former. Anyway, that kind of reminds me of it,
43:24because these missionaries are people that don't fit in or going elsewhere and spreading something
43:29that's just... Because they want to be in charge, and they can't be, because they have to be
43:34accountable. And those are just the ones in good places. It's a religious version of the music man,
43:39only not nearly so good. Right? You know, like I said, I dig into this, and there are things that just
43:46make you really scratch your head. I have so many pieces of the puzzle that I could probably put
43:52more of it together than I do. But there's a little bit of risk in doing it if it's relies to
43:57modern terms. The Roy Davis stuff, I can talk about that all day because it's ancient history. But
44:04you look at the formation of the Sharon Orphanage, it was happening at the same exact time Roy Davis was
44:10setting up his orphanage. And you had a congressman from Georgia who was the Department of Americanism,
44:16which was a keyword, code word for the Klan, as the Klan's being birthed in California, or re-birthed
44:22in California. But I came across things like Roy Davis was posing as a federal agent.
44:28And you look at the timelines, and you really start to question, because the birth of the
44:34Lateran movement is also the birth of the CIA. I don't know if you guys knew this, the timelines align
44:41fully. And Davis, who's posing as a federal agent, which is a crime, which he should be convicted of,
44:48gets off of it. So you start to wonder, no, wait a minute, if he got, if he got away with it,
44:53either a, they, they pardoned him, which they didn't, or b, he really was a federal agent. And you
44:59start to wonder, well, well, how much of this is real, man? How much of it was religion? How much of it
45:03was government? How much of it was something else? And you look through the photos of the
45:08Sharon orphanage, and they've got things like an airplane hangar with airplanes. What does an
45:12orphanage need an airplane hangar with airplanes? And their part, without the Sharon orphanage,
45:18you don't have the Lateran movement and the post-World War II healing revival. Without that,
45:24you don't have Charismatics. Without that, you don't have New Apostolic Reformation. So this is like
45:28the epicenter, and there's so many gray areas that everybody is hiding the past.
45:33I want to know why. I don't want to dig too far, because they're, like I said, it's a little bit
45:38of danger. But just enough to understand that, for me, I'm going to take it to the point where
45:43I understand, okay, this wasn't religion at all in the first place. They're calling it religion.
45:49And I'm like that close to making that decision anyway. But once I reach that decision, that's the
45:55point at which I stop. Because you go beyond that, and now you're digging into things that is state
46:00secrets. And I just won't go there. But I'm looking at it from a critical history lens and also from a
46:08doctrinal history lens. And doctrinally speaking, none of the things that are the foundation of this
46:14movement make any sense. And if you actually read the Bible and you understand the concepts that are
46:20being presented in the Bible in each one of the books that they reference, you're thinking, well,
46:25they're not referencing it in the way that that book is saying. So what is this? What are they teaching?
46:29What are they preaching? And like I said, I'm just like on the cusp of saying, okay, the whole thing
46:35was never supposed to be religion anyway. Religion was a front. And then if you want to go look at the
46:41dark side underneath, you can do that, but there's danger there.
46:44And it's interesting. One of the things that was, to me, and to me, was like an urban legend when I was at
46:51IHOPKC is, I heard a number of different people talking about how Paul Cain was CIA because he was
47:00on the, they did some supernatural, the government made a special like committee or group of people
47:09that were like trained in the supernatural and who knows. But I heard it enough that I, you know,
47:16I would always just kind of went, okay, sure. So I have studied that and I have talked to Paul Cain about that.
47:22Okay. There, there is a movie which is an awful, awful,
47:27stupid, boring movie called Men Who Stare at Goats. And it's got so many famous people that when you look
47:33at the list of the lineup of actors, that's gonna be a good movie. And the movie really stank. I, I don't even think I finished it.
47:41But it's got like George Clooney in there in the CIA operations center where they're literally staring
47:47at goats, trying to use the power of the mind to influence the goat. And when I first saw it, I thought,
47:54this is the stupidest movie ever. Years later, I learned that that was actually a true story. It was
48:00not intended to be funny. It was intended to be a, like a historical movie. And I'm, I'm scratching my
48:06head. Well, you, you look at this and it is true. Paul Cain was part of, part of this and I have enough
48:14other people who back up his claim and some names I can't mention. I'm sworn to secrecy, but they are
48:21aware he was involved with both this and the mob. And I won't go there too far either because there's some
48:28danger there. But it doesn't make sense when you see the key players involved. What does make sense
48:35is there are things happening that people can use as a vehicle to spread an agenda. And it works both
48:46ways. So this may not even, this, this whole thing that I'm talking about may not even exist today,
48:53but the network exists. And if the network exists and say, it's not even in use at all today. Well,
49:00what about next year? What about if we get enter into a new, and it looks like we're entering into a
49:07new cold war? Well, what if we do that? Does that network get re reignited? Do we start using that?
49:13And for me, I could care less about all of that. But I'm thinking, look at all the kids in that
49:18network and youth with a mission, which is why I'm starting to go a little bit deeper and try to
49:24spread some awareness there because I would not want my kid involved with that. You should not pay
49:29me to make my, to let my kid do this. There's no way. There's just too much risk. And further, if you're
49:36a Christian and you're seeing that they're teaching things that aren't really aligning with the Bible,
49:40why would you want to do it anyway? Why would you want your kid to be indoctrinated in something
49:44that is spreading seven mountains nonsense, which is not biblical? So it's a big mess that I think
49:52needs to be cleaned up.
49:52Amen to that, John.
49:54I agree with that, John. I think it's interesting, I guess, getting back to Womack a little bit.
50:06One of the quotes that he had, and this is why we're talking about this, like, is this a cloak? Is
50:14this whole thing a cloak for really a word of faith scheme to make some money? Because some of the
50:21things that are coming out of nationalism, political, which, you know, it houses the truth
50:27and liberty coalition. So, Womack was quoted saying this, that believers needed to quit focusing
50:37on their personal relationship with Christ, or simply praying for the nation and begin getting
50:44involved, starting with their school board. So forget your relationship with Christ. You know,
50:51that's, put that aside, because it's all about politics. Again, he said, we have enough people
50:58here in this school, we can actually elect anybody we want, we can take over this place. So you've got
51:06to wonder about these things as we're looking at, and we've looked at a lot of ministries lately as well,
51:11mainly because we've been involved in them. And we've been a part of it in some way, thinking
51:17that it was different, and finding out in the end that it was something far different than what we
51:22thought. So now to try to expose this, so that maybe if people, you know, if they're involved in
51:30it, you know, they might not see it. But if you can see some of these negative things, maybe it'll just
51:36give you that little tinge like, hey, I got to look at this. I got to spend some more time looking
51:42at this. And this is one of those situations in Woodland Park that we want to just highlight and
51:47lift up.
51:47Right.
51:48Because it's not Jesus. And that's the whole point. It's not about conspiracies, and everybody's scary,
51:55and everything's dark, and it's not about sensationalism. It's about the Bible. It's about
52:02Jesus Christ of the Bible, and what He calls us to, and how He calls us to live, and to act,
52:08and to serve, and to come alongside. And, you know, I think that's the thing. I've been spending more
52:17time again in Ezekiel 34, and what God says about shepherds who, you know, abuse their sheep and get
52:25fat on their own flock. But what He says, it's my flock. And I think that's the thing that Kevin and I
52:31are trying to figure out here is like, okay, here's the thing. We've both dealt with a lot of broken
52:39hearted, broken faith individuals in their 20s and 20, you know, early 30s that are being tore up
52:49because they're trying to, you know, basically, you know, serve for no money in some of these situations,
52:57because, you know, the more tired they are, the hungrier they are, the longer they are in a prayer
53:02room, or the longer they're on a mission field, the more they love Jesus. And I'm like, that's not
53:09Jesus. That's not the Jesus of the Bible. And increasingly, Kevin and I have, you know,
53:13Kevin keeps saying, I don't think this is the same God. This is not the same God of the Bible.
53:18And then when you add in all the, you know, the potential political stuff and, you know, promoting
53:26all that stuff, that to me just makes sense, as far as like, if it's not really based on God of the
53:32Bible and Jesus Christ, then the fruit is going to be very, very lacking and obvious. I mean, Jesus said,
53:41we will know a tree by its fruit. A good tree can produce good fruit, and a bad tree can only produce
53:46bad fruit. So, and the fruit of the Spirit is the fruit we're looking at. It's not stockpiling weapons.
53:53It's not Americanizing every nation on the planet. It's not getting, you know, a certain party in
53:59office. I mean, I find it just fascinating that Jesus never, ever touched the government officials,
54:06never talked about it, just give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to me what is mine. But beyond that,
54:11his, all of his, any kind of criticism was with the religious leaders of the day. Those are the ones
54:18that he was calling out. He, and he, if we're not of this world, and we're, this is not our home,
54:25then I, you know, I'm part of something else. But now, but not in the way of the kingdom now,
54:32and the dominion now, it's not, and so the nuance, John, the language is so important. Because if you
54:41don't talk about the nuance, you lose it, you know. And one more quote from Andrew Womack,
54:49if I could, just because this one's a good one, and you'll appreciate it, John. Womack was part of a
54:56group of pro-Trump prophets who claim that, uh, almighty God wants Donald Trump to make America
55:04great again, even if a 2024 Trump victory leads to a civil war. Andrew Womack said, but it would be
55:13worth it to turn this nation back. I believe it would. So this is, this is the kind of rhetoric
55:22that we're dealing with, and I'm sure you've heard it before as you've looked at the latter rain, but,
55:27but yeah, some scary stuff coming out of this community. It doesn't look like, it doesn't look
55:32like laying down my life and taking up my cross daily. And that we're citizens of another place,
55:38citizens of heaven, ambassadors here. Loving my neighbor as I love myself. It doesn't look like
55:44that. It doesn't look like Jesus. Well, picture this, and you can see these photographs online of
55:51tens to hundreds of thousands of people who are coming into these revivals. And they're looking
55:57at William Branham was the foremost leader, even recognized by historians as the leader of the
56:02revival movement. He would come and he would preach and he would teach. And after teaching, he would,
56:08was invited into the churches by many of the ministries who were in those meetings of hundreds of
56:13thousands of people, which sparked the whole revival and basically laid the groundwork for everything
56:19that we see today in this movement. And he's coming out onto the platform and he's saying things like
56:23this. As a Bible teacher, he's saying things like this. I don't know the Bible real well,
56:29but I know the author. Now, what person who's looking for a Bible teacher to come in their church would
56:36listen to something like this and say, that's the guy that I want to come teach our church Bible
56:41doctrine. You have to understand that it's not a Christian movement that's based on the Bible.
56:46It's a Christian movement that's named off of the word Christian. There is a difference. It can be
56:52Christian and based off the Bible, or it can be Christian and we're just calling it this. I drive a
56:58Ford, you know, SUV. I could say, well, that's a Porsche SUV. And everybody riding with me could say,
57:05it is not. It's a Ford. And I don't do that because it's a lie. I'm not going to do that.
57:10But that's essentially what these guys were doing. They were taking the word Christian,
57:14the name Jesus. They were branding it differently. Totally different religion. And that's why you
57:19see mysticism and all of these other things. It's just not based on the Bible. But thank you so much
57:25for doing this. There's so much more, actually, I want to talk about. Maybe we could come back and talk
57:29about more later in the future. Sounds good. Sounds good. Thanks for having us. Thanks, John.
57:35Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the
57:38web. You can find us at william-branham.org and Pellegrino Walk YouTube channel. For more about
57:44the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity
57:49to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:06All right.
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