I was GROOMED as a TEEN! CALL IN SHOW

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux unpacks a long-time caller's pandemic-worsened societal alienation and upbringing identity voids, forging cathartic paths to genuine bonds.  0:00:00 Introduction and Background  0:02:59 Struggles with Misanthropy  0:04:54 Dating Life Dilemmas  0:05:38 Reflections on Relationships  0:06:01 Exploring Childhood Trauma  0:07:22 The Weight of Parental Influence  0:10:31 The Impact of Bullying  0:14:04 Family Dynamics and Abuse  0:15:56 Navigating the Past  0:18:31 Experiences of Prostitution  0:27:19 Confronting Parental Relationships  0:40:04 Reconnecting with Family  0:47:46 Understanding Love and Neglect  0:53:01 The Complexity of Emotions  1:09:12 The Challenge of Honesty  1:25:13 Reflection and Gratitude   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00:00Right, so let me just make sure I've got the backup recording running here.

00:00:05It's a public call, so if you can stay off names and places,

00:00:07I would be thrilled beyond measure.

00:00:10And, yeah, if you want to read your notes

00:00:12or you want to just tell me how I can best help, I'm happy to jump in.

00:00:16Can I maybe say something first?

00:00:18Of course.

00:00:19Well, first, I want to thank you very much.

00:00:23I've been listening to you for about, I think, 19 years now.

00:00:27Wow, that's fantastic.

00:00:29I listened to you...

00:00:30Yeah, when you're, like, first starting out in your car,

00:00:33I think I watched a lot of your videos.

00:00:37I've always been very inclined to listen to philosophy and read philosophy.

00:00:42I've always been quite cerebral, like the Tink.

00:00:45And you've been quite instrumental in shaping me

00:00:47and shaping my, well, like my, how do you call it, my ontology.

00:00:56You've been a very big figure in my life.

00:00:58And you've shaped me in a lot of ways.

00:01:01And I would just like to thank you for that.

00:01:03I very much appreciate that.

00:01:05And I think you get some sort of award or bell for the longest listener in a while.

00:01:08So thank you.

00:01:10Okay.

00:01:10That's nice.

00:01:11I'm also very sad to see your YouTube channel that it was deleted because your YouTube channel,

00:01:16it was such a great treasure of so much information with this myriad, so many experts on all these topics.

00:01:23We did so much depth.

00:01:26And it's such a shame that it's not there anymore.

00:01:30And so, yeah, thank you for that.

00:01:34So my question, I was, well, the last few years have been quite good for me in some ways.

00:01:43Material, they've been well, material, plain, they've been well.

00:01:48So life hasn't been treating me bad, yet I do feel that there is, I feel that I'm becoming a

00:01:56little bit more misanthropic.

00:01:58I'm not depressed, although I do feel I'm starting to become a bit alienated in the way that I don't

00:02:07really feel that I want to participate anymore with people around me,

00:02:11with society, which I just, I don't feel that I can really relate to people anymore, that my inner, how

00:02:24I perceive stuff is so far from people, from the normal person.

00:02:31And it's hard for me to relate to people anymore.

00:02:34And I don't really want to, it's hard for me to make an effort into people, to get to know

00:02:39them, to really be truly interested in them.

00:02:44And I want to explore whether this is just perception, this is an inner defense mechanism of something psychological going

00:02:51on,

00:02:52or this is just the truth that the world is getting duller, more dumb, more, what's going on?

00:03:02Does that make sense to you?

00:03:04Yes, totally. I'm happy to hear more of that. When did you first notice this really beginning to kick in

00:03:10with you?

00:03:11I think it started to kick in way before COVID, but when the pandemic hit, it really started to hit

00:03:17me.

00:03:18My life kind of became a constant struggle with the people around me.

00:03:23If I went to, I didn't wear the mask, so the struggle was like a real tangible struggle.

00:03:30Like I went to do a supermarket. It was like a cause of people like telling me, sir, sir, you

00:03:34need to wear the mask.

00:03:35And it was really like a battle, like a constant uphill battle, uphill battle.

00:03:42And I, I really found out that really so few people see things my way.

00:03:49And when I first started listening to you, um, very long time ago, I kind of had this, um, feeling

00:03:56that, well, we're getting all this information and people are getting smarter.

00:04:00We have the Flynn effect.

00:04:02And I feel that in, uh, I really thought that when I was this age, um, I thought people would,

00:04:08I would have a circle around me of like-minded people who I could be around.

00:04:13And although I have really tried my best into finding this circle and getting these people around me, um, I

00:04:21have failed in that.

00:04:22I can't, I could not find these people. Um, I have not found them. Um, I don't have a prospect

00:04:28of finding them.

00:04:30And I'm just starting to believe that they are not there, that there are very few, far, a few, few

00:04:36between, um, maybe one in a thousand or less.

00:04:39And, um, um, um, yeah, I feel, especially the last few years, I'm feel I'm becoming quite despondent and, uh,

00:04:49that kind of, that dream of finding my people, quote unquote, um, has kind of died within me.

00:04:55Right. Okay. All right. And how is your dating life?

00:05:00Dating life? Um, well, I have a date tomorrow. Um, so it's not non-existent, but it has really, um,

00:05:08my dating life.

00:05:08It's, uh, not really here. Um, especially the last few years, I went on a couple of dates, but not

00:05:14many.

00:05:15And what about your history?

00:05:18My history? Um, not good. I have a very bad dating history. Um, I have a very bad relational history.

00:05:25Uh, have only had a handful of relationships, not anyone, not, uh, they didn't last long.

00:05:31Also have, um, I didn't, um, yeah, I didn't have like good role models for good relationships, but, um, yeah,

00:05:40I don't really.

00:05:41And also I kind of gave up hope on that, that I'll find a partner. I kind of gave up

00:05:45hope, to be honest.

00:05:47And how old are you now?

00:05:49How old am I?

00:05:50Yes.

00:05:5137.

00:05:53All right. So you've been in the dating market a little over 20 years. And what's the longest relationship you've

00:05:58had?

00:05:59My longest relationship was a year.

00:06:02Um, when was that?

00:06:03That was, I think, six years ago.

00:06:06And tell me a little bit about that.

00:06:09Um, it was, um, um, uh, a homosexual relationship.

00:06:16Um, I was with another man, um, and we broke up.

00:06:20I like that clarification. It was a homosexual relationship with another man.

00:06:24Yes.

00:06:25It's like how my daughter used to say 2 p.m. in the afternoon. Anyway, sorry, go on.

00:06:29Yeah, sorry.

00:06:30Um, yeah, that was, um, um, we broke up because, um, well, he broke up with me because I made

00:06:37jokes that he didn't like.

00:06:40And it was kind of like, um, also that feeling kind of slipped in there because he broke up with

00:06:45me.

00:06:45Um, because I started making some jokes that, that are just, um, kind of edgy, I guess, but to him,

00:06:51not to me.

00:06:52Um, and, uh, also I was just kind of trying to be myself.

00:06:56Like, okay, if I really say the things that are really within my heart and I say them out loud,

00:07:01will people run away?

00:07:02And yeah, they'll, they'll run away from me.

00:07:05So there's this, this nagging feeling.

00:07:07Like if, if I really open up, if I really show myself, if I really say what I, from the

00:07:12bottom of my heart, believe and feel.

00:07:15People will run away from me.

00:07:17And also what also doesn't help is that I'm not that pretty.

00:07:20So that also doesn't help my dating life.

00:07:22I mean, I saw your video at the beginning.

00:07:24You're a good looking guy.

00:07:25Uh, not that real.

00:07:27No, not that great.

00:07:28I guess.

00:07:30Well, thanks for compliment, but I don't agree.

00:07:33I mean, you're not overweight.

00:07:34You've got a nice head of hair, a nice beard.

00:07:37I mean, good facial structure.

00:07:38I mean, is there something that you consider negative?

00:07:41That's strong that I don't know.

00:07:42Yeah, I've, I think you only see like a side profile of quite an asymmetrical face.

00:07:47So, so are you, uh, what's this a one-time thing?

00:07:51Are you bisexual?

00:07:52Are you gay?

00:07:55Actually, I really don't know.

00:07:57Um, I think bisexual.

00:07:59The aesthetic, the physical attraction standards in the gay community are insane.

00:08:05Yeah.

00:08:06And, you know, if you're not ripped and look like Ricky Martin or whatever, right?

00:08:10I mean, it's, it's really quite mad in the gay community.

00:08:13Just how the, I mean, not in all, right?

00:08:15But in general, in the gay community, the body standards are nuts.

00:08:18That's, you're, that is true.

00:08:20But I also feel that has also, um, kind of, uh, shifted over to, to the, uh, heterosexual

00:08:26relationships because now with the looks maxing, I don't know if you heard about that.

00:08:30Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:08:31Um, it has become so atomized and like men have become like this, this atomized self

00:08:36beautification objects and, and like looks is becoming so incredibly important.

00:08:42And, um, also with, with all these dating apps, like, um, back in the day, you had like competition

00:08:48of like the men around you, like a hundred people around you, that was your competition.

00:08:52And now my competition is like the world, like millions of people.

00:08:56And also I see it with myself when you're swiping on these apps, it's so easy to have

00:09:01like the feeling, Oh, just, um, just a couple of swipes further and I'll find my, um, my,

00:09:08my perfect partner.

00:09:09And, uh, there's also this feeling that you can just get a little bit better if you just

00:09:13keep on swiping.

00:09:15So if you're not at 10, it feels like, um, yeah, that there's just too much, um, the,

00:09:22the supplying demand is really skewed.

00:09:25It feels like that.

00:09:26Okay.

00:09:27So you are asexual, bisexual, gay, demisexual, straight.

00:09:32He said, you don't know.

00:09:33So I don't know what I don't know means you have a sex drive.

00:09:36Is it toasters?

00:09:37Like, what is it, what is it aimed at?

00:09:41It's very hard for me to, um, I kind of shoved it under the, the, um, God, it asexual, I

00:09:50guess.

00:09:51I don't really think about it that much.

00:09:53Um, although when I do, it kind of goes all over the place.

00:09:56I guess the best would be bisexual.

00:09:59I guess that's, um, if you really want to quantify it, um, bisexual, I guess.

00:10:05So are you saying that your sex drive is low?

00:10:09Yeah.

00:10:09It's not a good system.

00:10:10I'm just, I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.

00:10:13Yeah.

00:10:14It's quite low.

00:10:15Okay.

00:10:16All right.

00:10:16And was that always the case?

00:10:19Was it higher at some point in the past?

00:10:22Um, well, I was 14 once.

00:10:24So, um, yeah, it was higher.

00:10:25Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's kind of gradually became less.

00:10:29And, um, like, uh, I started dating when I was like,

00:10:3520, um, had a girlfriend, had a boyfriend, um, and sex drive was high then, I guess.

00:10:42It's, it's still not, let my sex drive is completely gone, but, um, it's just, I don't

00:10:46want to give into it, I guess.

00:10:48I don't want to think about it.

00:10:50It's something I like to shove, um, put away.

00:10:53I like to put it on the, in the ice box, so to speak.

00:10:57And, uh, why do you think that is?

00:10:59Um, I think I had very, um, bad examples, uh, for how relationships look like and worked.

00:11:08Um, so I, I've never really seen people like happily in love.

00:11:14I never experienced that.

00:11:15And, um, also my youth, my, uh, I was like bullied like a lot and I didn't have a nice,

00:11:22uh, youth, like, uh, quite a horrible one, actually.

00:11:25I'm sorry about that.

00:11:26Tell me, uh, what happened in your childhood?

00:11:29Um, I got horrifically bullied, um, like, really horrifically bullied.

00:11:34Um, so when I went to school, um, for elementary school, like when I was like from six to like

00:11:4012, I got like bullied the, the, the most harsh from the entire school and I had very

00:11:47bad parental relationships.

00:11:49I did not like my parents.

00:11:51My parents, like, especially my mother did not like me.

00:11:54So when I got home, um, the first thing I would do is go upstairs.

00:11:59And if my parents would walk up the stairs, I would just hold my breath and hope they

00:12:03would walk away.

00:12:04And, um, so if I would just go to school, I would dissociate and I would just be completely

00:12:11bullied by everyone.

00:12:12Uh, when I got home, I would just hide in my room.

00:12:15Oh, nobody would find me.

00:12:17Um, and, um, I guess I didn't have a good start in that sense.

00:12:22So what was going on with your parents?

00:12:25Um, my parents both, um, although from different families and really different stories in those

00:12:33families, they both did not come from good families.

00:12:36Um, both have a lot of problems.

00:12:38Uh, my mother's side, especially came from a very large family.

00:12:43Um, everything horrid that happened in that family, like abuse, poverty, um, hunger, um,

00:12:50like, uh, everything horrible, uh, that you can imagine happened there.

00:12:57And also for my father's sides, also, um, quite some bad stuff happened there.

00:13:02Um, suicide attempts.

00:13:04Um, uh, my grandpa was in the police, uh, Indonesian police, uh, actions in Indonesia.

00:13:11And, uh, he, he, yeah, he did a lot of bad stuff there and he took that home.

00:13:18Um, so my parents both were not, um, very healthy people in expressing their relation

00:13:26and having healthy relationship with each other.

00:13:29Like I don't have really, um, memories of my father, um, have showing affection to my

00:13:36mother.

00:13:37Like that's something I never, ever experienced.

00:13:40All right.

00:13:40And were you aggressed against yourself?

00:13:43Uh, sorry, I, I did not hear that.

00:13:45Aggressed?

00:13:46Uh, yeah.

00:13:46Were you aggressed against yourself?

00:13:47Like your parents, did they hit you?

00:13:49Did they beat you?

00:13:50Did they spank you?

00:13:51Uh, not, not really.

00:13:52I got spanked twice.

00:13:54Um, I talked about it with my parents, but they denied it.

00:13:57It never happened, uh, according to them.

00:13:59Um, but yeah, it did happen, but, uh, not that bad, but it did happen.

00:14:05And do you have siblings?

00:14:07I have a half sister who was, uh,

00:14:09uh, 10 years older than me and I moved out of my house, uh, when I was 16 because it

00:14:15was really bad at, at, uh, at, at my parental house.

00:14:19So I moved with my sister and I lived with her for about three years and she was, uh, she

00:14:24was like a mother to me.

00:14:25Huh?

00:14:26How much older?

00:14:2711 years older than me.

00:14:29Okay.

00:14:2911 or 10.

00:14:30I don't know.

00:14:31Right.

00:14:31Okay.

00:14:34So how did you ever have any close connection with your parents at all?

00:14:38Cause you know, the bullying usually comes because the parents are quite distant, right?

00:14:42Yeah.

00:14:43And also I, I had a conversation with my parents and, uh, also I told him like, um, you know,

00:14:49I had very bad parental relationship and you just saw this on me.

00:14:52Like if I see pictures of myself from that time, you just see this kid has nowhere to

00:14:56go.

00:14:56This kid has nowhere to go to.

00:14:58And, uh, he just looks weak and like a prey and just kids pick up on that, on that like

00:15:03very easily.

00:15:05Right.

00:15:05Okay.

00:15:06And did you do any kind of sports or anything like that that might've countered some of

00:15:09the bullying?

00:15:10Yeah.

00:15:11I went into kickboxing and judo.

00:15:13Uh, kickboxing is something I kept on for very long.

00:15:15So I did kickboxing for about 10 years, I think.

00:15:19Um, so really like that.

00:15:20So the bullying stopped.

00:15:21Um, also I'm six, six, I'm quite tall.

00:15:23So the bullying stopped when I became, uh, big and tall and strong, but, um, also

00:15:30six, six and you have concerns about your physical appearance.

00:15:34Well, uh, it's, I'm quite, um, yeah, yeah, I do.

00:15:38Yeah.

00:15:39Okay.

00:15:40I just, I can hear all the short guys screaming, but anyway, go on.

00:15:44Um, so yeah, I did just some kickboxing and that stopped the bullying.

00:15:48Um, but the bullying, uh, went all, went on through high school and it only really

00:15:54stopped at college when I was just an adult.

00:15:57So tell me a bit about the bullying.

00:15:59What would happen?

00:16:01Um, people would just make fun of me because I would just, uh, I looked really, um, I don't

00:16:07know how to translate this in English, but I, um, like, uh, really recessed chin that kind

00:16:13of evened out now.

00:16:15Um, but, um, I just looked, um, really lanky.

00:16:19I was just really tall, really skinny.

00:16:21Um, I just looked a bit silly and, uh, and just a very socially awkward.

00:16:27So, um, yeah, they just, um, ripped me apart.

00:16:31Like I, I was, it was really brutal.

00:16:33It was, um, yeah, just making fun of me, um, calling me names, um, social exclusion.

00:16:40Um, um, so that, um, yeah, it wasn't fun.

00:16:43Um, I did kind of get some friends when I was a bit older, I had started hanging out

00:16:48with the golf kids and, uh, started smoking cigarettes and, uh, smoking weed and hang

00:16:53out with the cool kids.

00:16:54Golf kids?

00:16:55Yeah, golf kids.

00:16:57Oh, golf.

00:16:57Sorry.

00:16:58Say it as golf.

00:16:59Golf kids.

00:16:59Okay.

00:16:59Got it.

00:17:00That makes a bit more sense.

00:17:00Okay.

00:17:01Go ahead.

00:17:02So, uh, I did get some friends, uh, although, uh, the only thing that bothered us was weed

00:17:08and alcohol, to be honest.

00:17:11Um, but I did get some friends that way.

00:17:13Okay.

00:17:15All right.

00:17:16And when you first began to get your hormones and so on, was there, um, what did you do in

00:17:25terms of attractiveness or being attracted to people and so on?

00:17:29Um, I don't really understand.

00:17:31I don't understand the question.

00:17:32What did I do?

00:17:32How do you mean?

00:17:33Yeah.

00:17:33I mean, did you start asking boys out or girls out or anything like that?

00:17:36Um, I, uh, that's quite a horror, horrible story here.

00:17:41Um, I, uh, started prostituting myself.

00:17:46Uh, okay.

00:17:48Go on.

00:17:49Um, so when I was 16, I started that and that kind of went on till I was like, uh,

00:17:5523, 24.

00:17:58Okay.

00:17:58So tell me a bit about that.

00:18:01Um, I, um, I was just, um, I got on the internet and I found this website where you could

00:18:08come

00:18:09into contact with people, with other men, uh, gay men.

00:18:13Um, and one of these guys gave me a lot of attention.

00:18:15Uh, this is something I really liked.

00:18:17And also then I found out you could also make a lot of money with that.

00:18:21And that's something I gravitated towards.

00:18:25Um, I feel horrible saying it and thinking about it.

00:18:28Um, but that is what I did.

00:18:30What do you, what do you feel about it?

00:18:32Horrible, uh, disgusted.

00:18:34Um, although I, I, I kind of gave it a place now.

00:18:37Um, it is, um, it is what it is.

00:18:41It is something, um, yeah.

00:18:45So my most of my.

00:18:45Sorry, were you, were you groomed?

00:18:47Is that, is that what happened?

00:18:49Uh, not really.

00:18:50I kind of looked for it myself.

00:18:52Uh, maybe I was groomed for the first time, but, uh, the, the other encounters, I really

00:18:56seek them out myself.

00:18:58Um, also for a monetary financial incentive, which was really big at that time.

00:19:04Um, I mean, everybody has monetary financial incentives.

00:19:07It's not common to take this part.

00:19:09So, uh, tell me about the, the first time.

00:19:13Cause I mean, that's, that's the bandaid off, so to speak with regards to your conscience

00:19:16and tell me how that came out about.

00:19:19Um, the first time I did that for money is, um, I was just in a really bad place.

00:19:25I, um, got bullied in school tremendously.

00:19:29Um, I kind of started doubting whether I was straight or I was gay.

00:19:33Um, I, I found this validation.

00:19:36I had, I had sex one time with, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with another man.

00:19:40Um, and after that I went on his website and you could just kind of.

00:19:45Sorry, you said you had sex with another man.

00:19:47And how old were you?

00:19:48Yeah.

00:19:49Uh, 16.

00:19:51And how old was the man?

00:19:53Um, he was relatively young.

00:19:54He was about 24, but, um, but the first time I prostituted myself.

00:19:59Okay.

00:19:59Hang on.

00:20:00Hang on.

00:20:00Let me just do one at a time.

00:20:02Sorry.

00:20:02Yeah.

00:20:02One horrible story at a time.

00:20:04Okay.

00:20:04So you were 16.

00:20:06He was 24.

00:20:07Yes.

00:20:08Is that legal where you are?

00:20:10Don't tell me where you are, but I'm just, that, that seems not legal.

00:20:14I don't think it was legal.

00:20:16No, that was probably not legal.

00:20:18No.

00:20:18Okay.

00:20:19So it's not, it's not really like having sex if it's not legal, right?

00:20:23Does that change the definition of sex?

00:20:25Yes, of course.

00:20:27Okay.

00:20:28I mean, certainly in the eyes of the law, it would be statutory rape if it wasn't legal, right?

00:20:33Yeah.

00:20:33Although I did consent.

00:20:35Not really, though.

00:20:36No, no.

00:20:37I didn't know what I was getting myself.

00:20:38Sorry.

00:20:38Sorry to be annoying.

00:20:40The whole point of the age gap is that you can't consent because you're still a child.

00:20:47Yeah.

00:20:47Well, he did abuse me in that sense.

00:20:49Like, he took advantage of me.

00:20:51He knew I was naive and he took advantage of me.

00:20:54Well, he knew you were still legally a child, right?

00:20:57Yeah.

00:20:58Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:58Now, you could say, like, it's one thing, and some places have sort of, if you're close

00:21:02in age, it's not so bad, but he was at brain maturity, you were still almost 10 years

00:21:07away from brain maturity.

00:21:09Yeah.

00:21:10Right?

00:21:11Yes.

00:21:13So, that's terrible.

00:21:15And how did you meet him?

00:21:17Internet.

00:21:18Through the internet to a chat site.

00:21:20And we just exchanged numbers and he called me and I was really flattered by the attention

00:21:24I got and the interest he showed in me and then I met him at his house and naive of

00:21:31me,

00:21:31I thought he just wanted to talk and just talk with me and, yeah, he just started kissing

00:21:37me and, yeah, it just ended quite...

00:21:43So, you met him for a friend and then he had sex with you?

00:21:47Yeah.

00:21:48Or had statutory rape with you or something like that, right?

00:21:52Yeah.

00:21:53I'm so sorry.

00:21:54I mean, it's just terrible.

00:21:55It's just terrible.

00:21:57I'm just sorry.

00:21:58That's just awful.

00:22:01Yeah.

00:22:02Yeah, it is.

00:22:02And you said he abused you and then do you mean just in terms of the age difference or

00:22:06do you mean something else?

00:22:08No, in terms of the age difference because I really went in there with completely different

00:22:12expectations.

00:22:14I kind of left there feeling in the moment I was kind of, I felt glad because I felt really

00:22:20mature in that moment.

00:22:23I felt like I was an adult now.

00:22:26Weird.

00:22:28But, yeah, it really wasn't good.

00:22:31It was, yeah, a bad thing that he did.

00:22:34And was there any pleasure in it at all or?

00:22:38No, it was very hard for me.

00:22:40I don't think I came or ejaculated.

00:22:43I just, it all went, it happened really quick and I was just kind of overrun by that whole

00:22:49experience and I was just very, very shy and very, I didn't know what was happening and

00:22:57I was just very naive and stupid.

00:22:59Well, no, no, hang on.

00:23:00Don't call yourself naive and stupid.

00:23:02You were unprotected and preyed upon.

00:23:05Yeah.

00:23:06Again, I'm very sorry.

00:23:08That's just, it's just wrong.

00:23:10It's just wrong.

00:23:11Okay.

00:23:13And how long did that, I don't know if we can call it a relationship or whatever you

00:23:17want to say, but how long did that last?

00:23:20Only the one time because I did have, he tried to call me afterwards and then I had like this

00:23:25moment of consciousness crisis where I didn't want to engage with him anymore.

00:23:30I, uh, so that only that one night.

00:23:33Right.

00:23:33Okay.

00:23:35All right.

00:23:36Okay.

00:23:37And so that was not good because he, he basically got you out there to, uh, on the basis of

00:23:45friendship

00:23:45and then sort of jumped to you, right?

00:23:48Yeah.

00:23:49Yeah, exactly.

00:23:50Okay.

00:23:52Um, sorry about that.

00:23:53And then how long was it after that that you began to think about, um, uh, being a prostitute?

00:24:01Very short, very short.

00:24:03Um, I think, uh, two, three months after that, um, I had another man who I met.

00:24:09He was a much older man.

00:24:10He was about 50, 60 and, um, they had promises of a lot of money.

00:24:16And, um, so I went with him and, um, he was very old.

00:24:22He was held.

00:24:23How do you mean?

00:24:23Sorry.

00:24:23No, sorry.

00:24:24He was how old?

00:24:25Um, I think he was in his fifties.

00:24:28And you were 16 or 17?

00:24:3016.

00:24:31He was 16.

00:24:32And was this sort of a nakedly, um, financial relationship?

00:24:38Yeah.

00:24:39And I, I do have, um, I don't have fond memories of that man, but he was very kind and

00:24:44he was

00:24:44very sweet and he was, um, very, um, aware of the situation.

00:24:49He said like, oh, you're just a child.

00:24:51Are you trying to give me a fucking aneurysm here, bro?

00:24:54No, sorry.

00:24:55No, seriously.

00:24:56What the fuck are you doing?

00:24:59Almost 20 years you've been listening to my show and you're talking about a sweet man

00:25:04in his fifties who pays a child for sex.

00:25:07Yeah.

00:25:08That's not sweet.

00:25:08Like, Jesus, man, who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

00:25:12I don't mean this in an aggressive way, but like, what are you trying to do?

00:25:16But, um.

00:25:17No, you're in a state of unconsciousness here.

00:25:21You're talking without any emotional connection here.

00:25:25And I don't mean this in a critical way.

00:25:27I'm not trying to be an ag or anything like that.

00:25:29I'm just, I'm just pointing it out because, I mean, you understand that if you say things

00:25:33like that to me, it puts me in a kind of fucked up position, right?

00:25:37Yeah, you're right.

00:25:39And again, I'm not trying to be an ag and I, I do apologize for any, any harshness, but

00:25:44it, it, it's a very unconscious conversation.

00:25:49If this is where you're at, that you're trying to tell me this guy was nice and sweet.

00:25:52He wasn't nice and sweet, but, um, I'm not trying to defend the guy, but I'm just trying

00:25:58to describe him, um, yeah, as in, you know, nice mannerisms, his mannerisms were, yeah.

00:26:03Hang on, hang on, hang on.

00:26:04Are you describing him accurately?

00:26:08No, I'm only describing, uh, the, the, the, how he presented himself.

00:26:14He presented himself as a very sweet old man.

00:26:17Uh, he wasn't, clearly, but that's how he presented himself.

00:26:20Well, as far as I understand it, he was a criminal.

00:26:23Yeah, exactly.

00:26:24Again, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't he a criminal?

00:26:28He is a criminal.

00:26:29Absolutely.

00:26:30I mean, he's paying a child for sex.

00:26:32Yeah.

00:26:33He's paying to commit a crime and the paying is also a crime.

00:26:38Yeah.

00:26:39So help me understand what's going on here.

00:26:42Well, it's mostly comparative because it wasn't just that man.

00:26:46No, don't, don't, don't intellectualize with me.

00:26:49Mostly comparative.

00:26:51What does that mean?

00:26:52That's just, that's just a, it's yapping.

00:26:54That's just a word.

00:26:55What does that mean?

00:26:55It's mostly comparative.

00:26:56I'm asking what's going on that you would try and sell me this horrible human being as

00:27:01nice and sweet.

00:27:02And again, I'm sorry to be harsh.

00:27:04I'm just, I don't know where we're at.

00:27:05I shouldn't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't sell him as that.

00:27:08You were right.

00:27:09No.

00:27:09And again, I'm not trying to be critical.

00:27:10I'm trying to understand what's going on with your mind or mindset here at the moment.

00:27:15I was just trying to describe him.

00:27:19No, I understand.

00:27:20I understand.

00:27:21I understand what, what you were doing.

00:27:23The question is, why were you doing it?

00:27:25Why are you trying to sell this horrible human being as nice and sweet?

00:27:29And again, I'm not trying to be critical or negative.

00:27:31I'm just, I'm trying to understand because you've been listening to the show for 19 years

00:27:36and you'd, you'd say something like that.

00:27:38Again, that's not a critical position.

00:27:40I'm just trying to understand.

00:27:43Well, from all the horrible criminals, I prostitute myself.

00:27:47He was the kindest.

00:27:48Let's keep it at that.

00:27:50That's an objective truth.

00:27:51And that doesn't make me less of a monster.

00:27:55Okay.

00:27:57So help me understand how you came about thinking of, I will sell my body for money for sex at

00:28:0616.

00:28:09Because everybody at school hated me.

00:28:12I lived in social isolation.

00:28:14Every time my parents even came near me, I couldn't even breathe.

00:28:18Literally, not figuratively.

00:28:20Literally, I could not breathe.

00:28:22I would hold my breath, hoping they would go away.

00:28:26So I was just very, very alone.

00:28:29And the prospect of someone giving me love, how horrible that quote-unquote love was.

00:28:41I know it wasn't love.

00:28:42But just the interest he gave me was something I craved, I think.

00:28:49Okay.

00:28:50And when did you start the kickboxing?

00:28:52I started that when I was 21, 22.

00:28:56Okay.

00:28:57So I'm still trying to understand.

00:29:00And again, I say this not from a critical standpoint.

00:29:02I'm just trying to really fathom, like, you couldn't join a club.

00:29:07You couldn't play Dungeons & Dragons.

00:29:09You couldn't learn how to play chess.

00:29:11You couldn't, like, there was nothing.

00:29:12Listen, like, I'm trying to understand why you go to this, this place.

00:29:19Because I felt unloved.

00:29:22Well, okay, I understand that.

00:29:24Hang on.

00:29:24Sorry, I understand that.

00:29:25But, I mean, there's lots of people who feel unloved in the world.

00:29:30And this is not necessarily where they go.

00:29:34I mean, I'm trying to, maybe necessary, but not sufficient, if that makes sense.

00:29:40Yeah.

00:29:41I also don't really know.

00:29:44Okay, good, good.

00:29:45So if you don't know, that's good, that's good.

00:29:47Then we can stop pretending to know, right?

00:29:49Okay.

00:29:51So now we have to try and understand, right?

00:29:54We should try and understand.

00:29:56Did you experience any sexual abuse as a child?

00:30:00No, I did not.

00:30:02No, absolutely not.

00:30:03Okay.

00:30:05So, did you have early exposure to sexual imagery or pornography or anything like that?

00:30:12I was exposed to the internet quite young.

00:30:14So I guess, yes.

00:30:16Yeah.

00:30:17Okay.

00:30:17So at what age did you start viewing or consuming pornography?

00:30:21Um, I think about 12 or 13, my first pornographic images.

00:30:27If you look at it in hindsight, there were just pictures, but that has a huge impact on you when

00:30:34you're that young.

00:30:35And I was the first generation to go on the internet with my 65K modem.

00:30:40Um, it was, um, so yeah, I was exposed to it very young.

00:30:44Okay.

00:30:46And your parents didn't give you any cyberproofing or put any parental controls on or lock things down or anything

00:30:52like that, right?

00:30:54No.

00:30:55Okay.

00:30:56And what influence do you think that had on this?

00:31:00I don't know.

00:31:01I don't know what influence that had.

00:31:04Ah, you're dodging.

00:31:07Hang on, hang on.

00:31:08Hang on.

00:31:08What was my question?

00:31:09What the influence of pornography had on me?

00:31:11No, I said, what do you think or what do you think?

00:31:15Not what do you know, right?

00:31:17So, and I'm, again, I'm sorry to be an ag, but when people switch from what is your theory to

00:31:22saying, I don't know the actual, all the facts, then that's a dodge, right?

00:31:27If I say, what do you, what, what influence do you think this might have had on you?

00:31:33And you said, well, I don't know for sure.

00:31:35That's not dealing with the question, if that makes sense.

00:31:39Okay.

00:31:39So what do you think?

00:31:42The relationship might have been, because you had been consuming pornography for years.

00:31:47Yeah.

00:31:48And, of course, pornographers are paid, usually, hopefully.

00:31:51I mean, hopefully they're not in the industry at all, but they're paid for sexual activity, and you've been watching

00:31:57this for years.

00:32:00It made me curious.

00:32:01It made me extremely curious.

00:32:03It made me curious, and it was something I wanted to do.

00:32:07Okay.

00:32:08So you wanted to have sex, which is, of course, common in your teenage years, right?

00:32:13I guess, yeah.

00:32:16And if you wanted to have sex, there's lots of ways to have sex without being a prostitute, or a

00:32:23child prostitute in this case, right?

00:32:25Yes.

00:32:27So why do you think you would go in that direction?

00:32:31I think because I had a very bad relationship with my father, I think.

00:32:37I think my father never, my parents never hugged me.

00:32:42My parents never said they loved me.

00:32:43My parents never comforted me.

00:32:46My parents never, my parents were very harsh.

00:32:49And I think my father was also quite autistic.

00:32:53He could not express his emotions well.

00:32:56So my parents were always angry at me, always mean at me, always never warm or never soft or never

00:33:05kind.

00:33:05So the prospect of receiving kindness from another man, that was something I think subconsciously really craved.

00:33:14Okay.

00:33:16So you were looking for male affection in part because your father was so distant?

00:33:21I think so.

00:33:22I think, yeah.

00:33:23I think so.

00:33:25It's hard to go back so long in time to really, because you do the things you do, you don't

00:33:31really, you're not conscious of them, of your actions.

00:33:35Because you're conscious, but it's hard to distill really what was the reason why I did it.

00:33:40But I do feel I had, that was a big hole in my heart.

00:33:45I know that from a very, from a very young age, I wish my dad would have hugged me.

00:33:51I wish my dad would be kind to me.

00:33:52And I also remember many conversations I had long before that with my dad where I told him, like, I

00:33:59wish you would be kind to me.

00:34:01I'm always, I know when I went over to a friend's house and people were, my friends were having fun

00:34:08with their parents.

00:34:09They were cracking jokes with their parents.

00:34:11I would just be completely stupefied and be completely silenced because it was just so alien to me.

00:34:17And that was something on a subconscious level I craved extremely.

00:34:22Oh, and maybe that's why your first John was the older man.

00:34:27Maybe, yeah.

00:34:28Like 40, almost 40 years older.

00:34:31That I had some fond feelings for him, that probably, yeah.

00:34:35But in a way, it's kind of incestuous, though, to say, I want affection from my dad, so I'm going

00:34:43to have sex with older men.

00:34:46That's to say that the kind of affection that you want from your father is sexual in nature, if that

00:34:51makes sense.

00:34:51So that's what I'm trying to understand.

00:34:55I did not want a sexual relationship from my father.

00:34:58I did not want that.

00:35:00Well, but I'm not saying that you did, right?

00:35:02That's why it says it's kind of incestuous in nature, not in fact, right?

00:35:08Because if you want affection from older men, or you want them to mix sexuality into it, it's interesting.

00:35:18It's not...

00:35:19I'm trying to think of the best way to put this.

00:35:22And also, it was kind of like beggars can be choosers.

00:35:26It was the only way how.

00:35:28I didn't see another way.

00:35:31To get affection from older men?

00:35:33To get affection from anyone.

00:35:36And that's because dating was impossible because of the bullying or something else?

00:35:42Yeah, I think of the bullying and how I looked at the time.

00:35:46I had extremely bad teeth.

00:35:49I just...

00:35:50I don't know.

00:35:51I think I was very...

00:35:53The bullying did a number on me.

00:35:55I was being bullied because, well, I had a very bad parental relationship.

00:36:00You could just smell that on me.

00:36:02You could just see it when I just walked in the room.

00:36:05You could just see that on me.

00:36:08I just looked very sad as a kid.

00:36:10I was quite a mess.

00:36:12I saw some videos of me when I was a kid, and it just looked sad.

00:36:17It just looked really, really sad.

00:36:19If I would see a kid like me, I would just have extreme pity for that child.

00:36:24So I didn't feel like I was worth anything.

00:36:26Or dating, that was...

00:36:28You need to have self-work before you start dating.

00:36:31And I did not have that.

00:36:33Not a bit at that time.

00:36:36I was just very socially awkward.

00:36:39Didn't talk to anyone.

00:36:41My only interaction with people was being bullied.

00:36:43That was my only interaction.

00:36:45I'm so sorry.

00:36:47Anything with your mom?

00:36:49My mom, I had a very bad relationship with my mother.

00:36:52My mother was not a nice person.

00:36:56She was very mean to me.

00:36:58She was extremely mean.

00:37:01Also, my mother was very narcissistic.

00:37:05I was very performative.

00:37:07So my mother would kind of live vicariously through me.

00:37:11Also, I had to...

00:37:14She gave me clothes, etc., but not to make me look good,

00:37:17but so that people would think she's a good mother.

00:37:21So every time I...

00:37:23Every morning I went to school,

00:37:24I first had to sit in her chair,

00:37:27and she would put makeup on me.

00:37:29So other mothers would not think she's a bad mother

00:37:32because I would look good.

00:37:34This was the rationale behind that.

00:37:37I really didn't like that.

00:37:39Sorry, your mother put makeup on you?

00:37:41Every morning, yes.

00:37:43Jesus.

00:37:43But I don't imagine that helped being bullied.

00:37:46No, that really didn't help.

00:37:48It's not fun when you're like nine

00:37:50and kids bully you because your mascara's running.

00:37:53What the fuck?

00:37:54This is insane.

00:37:55What the unholy hell is wrong with these people?

00:37:59I mean, that's not even like...

00:38:01Gee, you know, my mom didn't really...

00:38:03My mom gave me a bad bowl cut with serrated scissors, right?

00:38:07So I looked really goofy for a couple of weeks in school.

00:38:10I mean, that's bad enough.

00:38:11This is mental.

00:38:12She put makeup on you?

00:38:14Yes, she was absolutely mental.

00:38:15My mother was absolutely mental.

00:38:18I had very, very bad memories of my mother.

00:38:22Quite horrible memories.

00:38:23Also, my mother screaming at me,

00:38:25foaming at the mouth,

00:38:26telling me she hated me,

00:38:28that I ruined her life.

00:38:30And this is a 13, 14-year-old me

00:38:33where she's just completely berating me

00:38:36that I'm a horrible person.

00:38:39So she was kind of psychotic, right?

00:38:41Yeah, she was absolutely mental.

00:38:43She was...

00:38:45Yeah, there was a lot wrong with my mother.

00:38:48Wow.

00:38:49Again, really sorry about this as a whole.

00:38:52It's just...

00:38:53It's monstrous.

00:38:54And your father, I assume, of course,

00:38:56was equally mental in terms of the distance

00:38:58and you had mentioned something about autism?

00:39:01Yeah, I think so.

00:39:02But recently, like a couple of years ago,

00:39:05I had like lots of conversations with my father.

00:39:07I didn't see my father for a very long time,

00:39:09only a couple of years ago at Reconnected.

00:39:13And I also tried to reconnect with him

00:39:16and just try to talk about the past.

00:39:20Not what objectively happened,

00:39:23but just my feelings about that time.

00:39:24And I was just completely shut down.

00:39:27Like, he loved me.

00:39:28He was a great father.

00:39:30And anything that goes against his narrative

00:39:33is just me imagining things.

00:39:36Yeah, so he's still a liar and dissociated.

00:39:42Well, I don't dare to say that

00:39:44because I would just imagine him screaming,

00:39:47how dare you, if I would say that to him.

00:39:51But your words, not mine.

00:39:52But maybe.

00:39:55Okay.

00:39:55How did you...

00:39:56So tell me about the history of your relationship

00:39:58with your parents in a while.

00:40:01Um, where do you...

00:40:03On what time do you want to zoom in?

00:40:05I mean, from 16 onwards.

00:40:0716 onwards.

00:40:09From 16 onwards, my relationship with my parents

00:40:11was really, really bad.

00:40:12So, um, they decided I should live with my sister.

00:40:16Um, so from 16 on,

00:40:18I went to live with my sister for two years

00:40:20until I was 18.

00:40:21And then I started living on my own.

00:40:24Um, I had a little bit of connection with my parents then,

00:40:27like, um, Christmas and, um, birthdays, etc.

00:40:32But, um, I...

00:40:33I, um...

00:40:35From, I think, about 21, 22,

00:40:39I broke contact, um, with them.

00:40:42And, um, I didn't reconnect with my father.

00:40:47I have still not reconnected with my mother

00:40:49and I have no intention to.

00:40:51But I reconnected with my father,

00:40:53I think, five to six, five years ago, I think.

00:40:56And why did you...

00:40:57What were the circumstances of reconnecting?

00:41:01I think it was kind of, um...

00:41:04Uh, I was just curious how he was.

00:41:06And, um, I was just, um...

00:41:09I miss him.

00:41:10So I just wanted to reconnect.

00:41:11And, uh, we talked.

00:41:13And, uh, it was very nice talking to him again.

00:41:16And, um...

00:41:17No, I do love my father very much.

00:41:20Um...

00:41:20Oh, my God, man.

00:41:22Oh, my God.

00:41:23You're killing me.

00:41:25You're killing me.

00:41:28Sigh...

00:41:29All right.

00:41:30So tell me...

00:41:31I'm happy to explore this.

00:41:32Tell me what you love about your father.

00:41:35Um, he's very...

00:41:36He's smart.

00:41:38He's very intelligent.

00:41:39Um, he did a lot of stuff for me.

00:41:42Um, although, like, he did not show me affection

00:41:46in a lot of ways.

00:41:48But in a lot of ways, he did.

00:41:51Like, in the ways that he could, he did.

00:41:53Um, he did provide for me very well.

00:41:57Um, uh, I live in a house.

00:41:59Now, my father, um, uh, I could live in a house

00:42:02because of my father.

00:42:04Um, so, yeah, my father did, has given me a lot.

00:42:10So, he is smart.

00:42:13And he gives you some shelter?

00:42:17Yes.

00:42:18Um, those aren't virtues.

00:42:20What else?

00:42:23Um, we...

00:42:24We see eye-to-eye on a lot of stuff.

00:42:27Um, like politics, et cetera.

00:42:30Although I don't really care about politics anymore.

00:42:34Um, uh, all right.

00:42:36So, uh, what are his virtues?

00:42:40Um, he is straightforward.

00:42:42He is, uh, he speaks truth in a lot of ways.

00:42:46Um, he's not afraid to be, um, the odd man out.

00:42:50He's not afraid to be, um...

00:42:53He's brave.

00:42:54I think he's brave.

00:42:55He's a brave man.

00:42:57Um, he's very hardworking.

00:42:59Um, he's quite conscientious.

00:43:01Um, yeah, he's, um...

00:43:03He's kind of like an old-school Clint Eastwood kind of type of guy.

00:43:07He's, uh...

00:43:08He's, uh, tough in some sense.

00:43:11And, um...

00:43:12Tough?

00:43:12What the fuck are you talking about?

00:43:13He let his wife put makeup on you.

00:43:16Yeah, that's not tough.

00:43:17Help me understand.

00:43:18I feel like I'm in an opposite universe here.

00:43:21She screamed at you.

00:43:22Did she hit you?

00:43:23No, you said you only got hit spanked twice, right?

00:43:25Yeah.

00:43:26So your mother screamed at you, terrified you, put you in makeup, sent you to school.

00:43:30You were bullied for years.

00:43:32What did your father do about you being bullied?

00:43:34If he's a tough guy, right?

00:43:36Um, he went to the school and tried to...

00:43:39Yeah, on the school, tried to, uh, work it out with the teachers.

00:43:43But, um, um, yeah.

00:43:45Um, yeah, it didn't really help me in it, like, uh, hey, if they come to you, uh, I'm

00:43:49gonna teach you how to box you, you beat them up, or, uh, stuff like that he didn't

00:43:53do.

00:43:53Oh.

00:43:54Sorry, your big tough guy father went to teachers.

00:43:59Yeah.

00:44:00I also think he went to another, uh, he had to talk with another few parents, one or two

00:44:05parents, I think.

00:44:06You think?

00:44:08Yeah, and can't remember anymore.

00:44:09Okay.

00:44:10Okay, so, did he help you with this?

00:44:16Not really, no.

00:44:17And it went on for years, right?

00:44:19It went on, it never stopped.

00:44:21It started when I was four or five, and it never stopped.

00:44:23Okay, so, ten, twelve, fourteen years, right?

00:44:28Yeah.

00:44:28Your father did not stop it, did not do anything decisive to help?

00:44:35No.

00:44:36No, I guess not.

00:44:37Sorry, I don't, what do you mean you guess not?

00:44:39This is what you're telling me.

00:44:40I'm not trying to impose something on you.

00:44:42He didn't.

00:44:43So, where, you can't even protect his son, who's getting makeup put on him by his psycho

00:44:48wife?

00:44:50Help me understand what I'm missing here.

00:44:52You said he was so cold that you became a child male prostitute.

00:44:57You begged him for affection, he gave you nothing.

00:45:00He marries a psycho woman who screams at you and puts makeup on you, and you're trying

00:45:04to sell me a virtuous guy here?

00:45:08No, that's...

00:45:09No, honestly, like, I feel like, I would assume, based upon this call, that you'd never listened

00:45:15to my show in the past.

00:45:16And listen, it's not like you have to agree with me on anything or everything, but it's

00:45:22kind of weird to not even reference anything.

00:45:26Hang on, it's kind of weird to not even reference any of the arguments that I've made that you've

00:45:31been listening to, apparently, for 19 years.

00:45:34So, what is my definition of virtue?

00:45:37No, sorry.

00:45:38What is my definition of love?

00:45:39Let's do that.

00:45:40A definition of love, I knew this one by heart.

00:45:44It's the, I know it in Dutch, it's the involuntary response in the appearance of another.

00:45:51To virtue.

00:45:52It's involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous, right?

00:45:55Yes.

00:45:56Okay.

00:45:56So, when you say that you love your father after you spent, what is it, 40 minutes complaining

00:46:04with great justice and bitterness about your absolutely horrible childhood, which is just

00:46:09terrible.

00:46:10I mean, honestly, you've had one of the worst childhoods I've heard of on this show, and

00:46:13I've been doing this a long time.

00:46:15Yeah.

00:46:16So, your father presided over a psycho wife.

00:46:20He himself was cold and distant, and so cold and distant, and unfeeling and unaffectionate

00:46:27that you ended up selling your body to fucking crypt keepers when you were in your mid-teens.

00:46:33Yes.

00:46:34And you're going to tell me that he's a virtuous guy, and you love him.

00:46:41Also, he wouldn't listen to you when you talked about your childhood, and also, when I pushed

00:46:46back a little bit against him, you said you could hear him screaming in your head.

00:46:51Yes.

00:46:51And this is also why, also, I'm not, like, fighting for my father.

00:46:56There's a reason why I broke with him.

00:46:58You just, no, listen, all I can do, I can't read your mind, I can only go with what you

00:47:04tell me.

00:47:05Yes.

00:47:05And you tell me that you really love your father, and he's a virtuous guy.

00:47:10I don't know if he's virtuous.

00:47:12No.

00:47:12But I do.

00:47:13You said, you just said five minutes ago that he's virtuous.

00:47:16Don't gaslight me.

00:47:18I'm not, I'm not sure.

00:47:19You're gaslighting me.

00:47:20You're right.

00:47:21You're gaslighting me.

00:47:22Don't do that.

00:47:23So, this is why you, this is why it's tough for people to get to know you, because you keep

00:47:26switching.

00:47:27And I'm not, you know, it's, because you've been a listener for a long time, I'm going

00:47:31to have higher standards for the conversation, right?

00:47:33That's fine.

00:47:35So, what the fuck?

00:47:37What's going on here?

00:47:40I've, I've, I've, I've, if you're going to say, my father, okay, was your father a child

00:47:45abuser or neglector?

00:47:47He wasn't a, yeah, he was, I think.

00:47:50Okay, I mean, it is child abuse to send your child into an environment where he's being

00:47:57relentlessly and horrendously bullied for 10, 12, 14 years.

00:48:02That is abusive.

00:48:04It is abusive to let your wife put makeup on your boy and send him to school.

00:48:11So, you're a tall, gangly kid with blush, lipstick, and mascara.

00:48:16It is abusive to let your wife scream at your child and call him horrible names and shred

00:48:22his confidence and self-esteem.

00:48:25Just tell me if I'm wrong about any of this and I'm happy to debate.

00:48:28No, you're not wrong.

00:48:30You're not wrong.

00:48:30Okay.

00:48:31So, what is the second worst form of abuse?

00:48:36Here, I'll give you my quizzes here, right?

00:48:37The worst form of abuse is sexual abuse.

00:48:40What is the second worst form of abuse?

00:48:43Physical?

00:48:44No, physical is the least bad.

00:48:46The worst is sexual abuse.

00:48:48The second worst is neglect.

00:48:50The third worst is emotional abuse.

00:48:52The least worst is physical abuse.

00:48:54Okay.

00:48:55So, your father, at least, listen, I'm not saying, again, I'm not saying you have to

00:48:59agree with my definitions, that's fine, but it's weird to not even reference them as

00:49:06if I've never said anything on the subject.

00:49:09Now, you may say, Steph, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you because I know that

00:49:12you have a different opinion or a different argument, but I am going to claim that I love

00:49:16my father.

00:49:17This will be surprising to you, and let me tell you why.

00:49:19No, you're just like, yeah, this guy was a horrible child abuser, and he was horribly

00:49:23neglectful.

00:49:24He drove me into the arms of predatory older men who paid me for gruesome sex, but I love

00:49:30him.

00:49:32So, are you, I mean, were you aware when you're talking about how great your father

00:49:36is, were you aware that I was going to have something to say about that quite strongly?

00:49:42I think you're, I didn't, was not aware that the conversation would take this turn, but

00:49:47yeah, I'm aware that you would say that.

00:49:49No, don't, don't, don't gaslight me.

00:49:52Don't gaslight me.

00:49:54It's not that this conversation took a turn.

00:49:57You said things that are the exact opposite of everything I hold moral.

00:50:03And again, you're perfectly free to say things that are the exact opposite of everything I

00:50:07hold moral.

00:50:08Well, I'm just asking, were you aware, having listened to me for almost 20 years, were you

00:50:15aware when you talked about the coldness and cruelty of your parents, that when you said

00:50:23that you loved my, you loved your father, that I would be surprised and shocked and have

00:50:29something to say about it?

00:50:30And that's all I'm asking, were you aware of that?

00:50:32Absolutely.

00:50:33So, you were absolutely aware that I was going to rail against you claiming to love your

00:50:38father.

00:50:39Yes.

00:50:40How, how would I know that?

00:50:42You didn't say anything.

00:50:43You didn't say, oh, Steph, you know, this is going to come as a surprise to you and let

00:50:46me just sort of frame it or anything like that.

00:50:48You just said it blandly as if it was just normal and natural.

00:50:52Well, to give you a bit more of the story, I said all these things.

00:50:56I wrote letters to my father where I explained all these things.

00:50:59I broke with him because of these things.

00:51:02I also made your arguments against my father and said, this is the reason why I'm breaking

00:51:06with you.

00:51:07Um, and also the love, love, unquote, it started a few years ago.

00:51:15I, um, uh, no, but he hasn't changed more and more.

00:51:18Hang on.

00:51:18He hasn't changed.

00:51:19He's still rejecting your entire experience as a child, right?

00:51:22Yes.

00:51:23So if you hated him before and he hasn't changed, how do you love him now?

00:51:28Again, I'm, I'm happy to hear the answer.

00:51:29I just don't follow it.

00:51:31I don't really have a good answer for you.

00:51:34Well, what's your, hang on.

00:51:36What's your bad answer?

00:51:38Christ.

00:51:39I have become a Christian and I think it's important to love your parents.

00:51:43And I can't deny that, you know, all the, the horrible things that have happened, they

00:51:47have happened and I felt them and I've mourned for it.

00:51:50And, but.

00:51:51Well, why wouldn't you tell me that you had become a Christian and give me that context

00:51:56for the discussion?

00:51:58I want to, but there's a lot of context, uh, to give.

00:52:01Well, no, no, but you don't give the details without the context, right?

00:52:05Otherwise it's just confusing, right?

00:52:07So if, if you say, well, the reason, like if you'd said to me, uh, Steph, the reason now

00:52:11that I love my father who formerly I hated and didn't have contact with is because I've

00:52:17become a Christian and I want to obey the honor of their mother and their father.

00:52:20Although that's a bit confusing, right?

00:52:22Because why would you honor your father, but not your mother?

00:52:25That's a good point.

00:52:26No, I'm just curious because it's confusing, right?

00:52:28If you say, well, I, I, it says honor their mother and their father.

00:52:33And I think the mother goes first.

00:52:35So it's a bit confusing if you say, well, it's because I'm a Christian and because you

00:52:41also told me that you don't have any contact with your mother.

00:52:44And I think you said, and I never will.

00:52:47That's correct.

00:52:47So why would you honor your father, but not your mother, if it's a Christian commandment,

00:52:53which includes both?

00:52:54And again, I'm sorry to be a nitpicker.

00:52:56I'm just trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to navigate this quite challenging conversation.

00:53:02Maybe, uh, the, the, the most honest answer I can give you is that I don't know why I love

00:53:07him, but I, I, the last few years I've grown to love him.

00:53:11Okay.

00:53:12All right.

00:53:12So you just have an emotion that has no cause.

00:53:15And, and I will also, you and I both know directly and incontrovertibly that you are

00:53:23only able to be in a relationship with your father if you bear false witness, which unfortunately

00:53:28contradicts another commandment, right?

00:53:30Because you have to lie about your childhood and your experiences and not tell him the truth

00:53:34about what you think and feel about your childhood.

00:53:38So you're only in a relationship with your father because the moment I expressed anything

00:53:43critical, you immediately said, Oh, I can hear my father screaming in my ear or something

00:53:47like that.

00:53:48Right.

00:53:49Yes.

00:53:49So you're only able to be in a relationship with your father because you lied to him.

00:53:57Because if you told the truth, he would scream and reject and attack you, right?

00:54:02Well, he has also recently, not like two, three years ago.

00:54:06I also said it and, um, I also got a tax word and, uh, denied and, uh, said that it's

00:54:13not

00:54:13true, that he loved me very much.

00:54:14He did everything for me that he could, um, I, I, I know that's not true.

00:54:19Does he know that you were a child prostitute?

00:54:21Yeah.

00:54:22He knows that.

00:54:22Yeah.

00:54:23So he knows that and he's, so what is his answer as to how you became a child prostitute

00:54:29if he was a perfect father?

00:54:31I don't think he, um, likes to think about that too much.

00:54:34I don't think he has an answer for that.

00:54:36Well, nobody likes to think about it, but you told me he's a brave guy.

00:54:39So he can't be frightened of little things or even big things like that if he's a brave

00:54:44guy.

00:54:46If he's a brave guy, then he'll step up in a manly fashion and talk about things that

00:54:51are difficult, right?

00:54:53Well, you're right.

00:54:54And actually, you're right.

00:54:55I shouldn't say that he's brave because, because he's brave in some things, but he's,

00:54:59he's not a brave man as a, as a virtue.

00:55:02No.

00:55:03Okay.

00:55:03And what things is he brave?

00:55:05Um, confronting people, um, not confronting people.

00:55:09Confronting me or the past or, uh, but confronting other people, he can be, um, direct, I should

00:55:14say more, he is very direct, but that's not a virtue.

00:55:19Are you still there?

00:55:21Yes.

00:55:22Sorry.

00:55:22Could you give me an example of something that he is, um, brave about or has confronted someone

00:55:28about that you know of?

00:55:30Actually, I can't, Stefan.

00:55:32No, no.

00:55:34You, you ask me, what do you, what are the virtues of your father?

00:55:37And I, I say some stuff that, um, that rings true to my ear, but if you ask me to

00:55:43really

00:55:43examine it, I can't really give you tangible examples of virtues.

00:55:48I know.

00:55:49I can't.

00:55:50But yeah, you're right.

00:55:52Okay.

00:55:53All right.

00:55:54Got it.

00:55:55Uh, okay.

00:55:56So, how is it that I can best help you in the time that we have left?

00:56:01I don't really know.

00:56:03What was it, do you think, that most prompted you to want to have the call?

00:56:07Because it sounds like we just have very different definitions of many things, which is not, not

00:56:12good or bad.

00:56:13It just means that we have, uh, different definitions of love and loyalty and Christianity

00:56:20and, and so on.

00:56:22Uh, I don't believe that Christianity says that you should be, um, relentlessly affectionate

00:56:28towards people who are unrepentant sinners.

00:56:30Is your father a Christian?

00:56:32No, he's not.

00:56:33Okay.

00:56:33And he has not, as far as I understand it, he has not, he has not accepted a fault for

00:56:41the wrongs that he did.

00:56:42No, he has not.

00:56:43No.

00:56:44So, so he is an unrepentant sinner who's not a Christian.

00:56:47Is that right?

00:56:48Yes, that's right.

00:56:49And does, I mean, according to what you understand about Christianity, and of course, I'm not

00:56:56any kind of fundamental expert on Christianity, is it your understanding that Christ or Jesus

00:57:02commands you to love unrepentant sinners the same as you would somebody who has repented

00:57:10and accepted Jesus?

00:57:11I don't, I don't think so, no.

00:57:14Okay.

00:57:15No.

00:57:16So, if, uh, unrepentant sinners, uh, your mother, I assume, is also an unrepentant sinner,

00:57:23is that right?

00:57:24Very much, yes.

00:57:25Okay.

00:57:25She has not changed in the most fundamental ways, no.

00:57:27So, why is your father acceptable and worthy of love, and your mother is, it sounds like,

00:57:36sort of very negative, you have a very negative relationship with your father, with your mother,

00:57:39and you don't, um, you don't have any contact with her.

00:57:44So, what is the difference?

00:57:46I assume, sorry, I assume that they're not still together, right?

00:57:50No, they're not together.

00:57:51No, they got a divorce when I was about 15, 16.

00:57:54And you, and do you know why they divorced?

00:57:56Um, I, I was glad when they divorced.

00:57:59Uh, I don't know why they didn't divorce, let's put it that way.

00:58:02Um, they never loved each other, never.

00:58:03That happened, if they were able to hang on for 15 or 20 years, or do you know anything

00:58:07specific that happened prior to the divorce?

00:58:10Um, I, I think it was just, um, that, uh, uh, uh, a drip that overflowed the bucket.

00:58:17Um, it was, um, I don't, don't, I don't know what, what exactly caused it, but, uh, I think

00:58:23it was just, um, it was never happy, it was never good, and I think my dad just could

00:58:28not take it anymore.

00:58:30Okay, got it.

00:58:31Um, okay, so you had, um, if you don't have anything particular to, to work on, um, I

00:58:37can, uh, mention something to you that might be helpful based upon what you called in with.

00:58:43Okay.

00:58:44So you called in feeling isolated, is that right?

00:58:48Yes.

00:58:49Yes.

00:58:49I mean, I can tell you why you're isolated, if you want to know.

00:58:52Okay.

00:58:54Because you are consorting with an evildoer, and you are claiming to love an evildoer.

00:59:00And if a good and healthy and virtuous person comes around, and, uh, you tell that person

00:59:08the truth about your childhood and your father, and then you say, but I love my father, and

00:59:13I enjoy spending time with him, and I'm glad he's in my life, what will the good and virtuous

00:59:19person think and feel about that?

00:59:22Confused, I guess.

00:59:23No, not really, no, not really confused.

00:59:25It's just, it's just a rank contradiction, right?

00:59:28Yes.

00:59:28So they will say, you love the person who has done the most harm to you of anyone in the

00:59:36world.

00:59:37Maybe, you know, lumping him in with your mother because they're a system, right?

00:59:42There's no one good parent and one bad parent, right?

00:59:45So they would say, okay, so you love the person who's done the most harm to you and has never

00:59:52even admitted fault or repented or made restitution or anything like that, right?

00:59:58Yes.

00:59:59And can I maybe add something?

01:00:01Yeah.

01:00:02I broke with my father, like, I don't really love you, and that time when I broke with him,

01:00:10I was ever more alone.

01:00:12I spent every Christmas alone.

01:00:14I didn't have much friends.

01:00:16I didn't have any family.

01:00:17I completely broke with all my family, and that broke me so much.

01:00:23And I was, when I, after so many years of breaking with my father, I had another encounter with

01:00:31him and a talk with him, and that was fun.

01:00:35That was, because, yeah, that was okay.

01:00:38And I guess I'm just happy to have at least some family again, to not have to spend Christmas

01:00:45alone again, to have some support system behind me again.

01:00:52Okay, and sorry, how long, from what age to what age were you not talking to your father?

01:00:58From 20, 22 to about 30, for about eight years I didn't speak to him.

01:01:05Okay.

01:01:05And what efforts did you make to find better people over that time period?

01:01:14Um, I, well, work, um, sports, um, friends, um, but the, yeah, the more I, um, yeah, I kind

01:01:25of lost a lot of friends because I didn't see eye to eye with a lot of people.

01:01:29And, um, so, but when I kind of, my dad came back in my life, I was quite happy that

01:01:34I at

01:01:34least had someone again.

01:01:36Okay, but you do understand that if you have an unrepentant child abuser in your life, it's

01:01:41going to keep good people at a distance.

01:01:44Do you really think that the only way I can have good people in my life is if I break

01:01:48with

01:01:49my father?

01:01:50Well, no, that's not what I said.

01:01:52What did you say then?

01:01:54If you have unrepentant child abusers in your life, it's going to keep good people away.

01:02:01Right?

01:02:01Do, do good people want to be in an environment with someone who says, I love the man who

01:02:07abused me as a child, even though he's never admitted any fault and attacks me if I talk

01:02:12about it now.

01:02:13I mean, that's just straight up Stockholm syndrome, right?

01:02:16She put it like that.

01:02:17No, no, I don't think so.

01:02:18Right.

01:02:19And listen, I mean, people will have sympathy, of course, right?

01:02:21I mean, I have sympathy for sure, but it's morally just too contradictory.

01:02:28Yeah, and I lived with that conviction for eight years, but it only made me more unhappy

01:02:33and more alone and more, because also you don't want to be friends with someone who has

01:02:38nothing, who has no support system, who has no friends, who has no family, who has nothing.

01:02:44Well, so then we have the problem of what you said with regards to selling your body when

01:02:51you were 16, that you felt that you were worth nothing, right?

01:02:55Yeah, I felt I was unlovable.

01:02:57And that comes from your father and your mother.

01:03:01Yeah.

01:03:02And yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:03:05Yeah.

01:03:06Now, why do you think you have no emotion when talking about these things?

01:03:15Do you mean I have no emotion?

01:03:17Do you want?

01:03:18I've cried many years for this.

01:03:21My tears are all cried up.

01:03:24Well, yeah, I mean, tears aren't the only emotion, right?

01:03:28Well, I'm not unemotionally sitting here.

01:03:33There's a lot of emotions going through me.

01:03:35Okay.

01:03:36Yeah.

01:03:37Well, listen, if the choice is between bad company and no company, I can understand why

01:03:42you would choose bad company, right?

01:03:45Yeah.

01:03:46And if you had said to me, listen, I tried my very best to get friends for eight years

01:03:51and to date and to get a boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that, I'm just, for some

01:03:58reason, I'm completely unable to form any kind of bonds with anyone.

01:04:05And I'm sort of left with my child abuser as the only person who might be in my corner.

01:04:09Hey, listen, I mean, I can sympathize with that.

01:04:12And I can certainly understand where you would be coming from.

01:04:14Does that make sense?

01:04:16Yeah, that makes sense.

01:04:17But what you said to me was, I love my father.

01:04:21Yeah, because that's easier to say than what you just said.

01:04:24But what you just said is the truth.

01:04:25Well, no, it's not easier.

01:04:26It's just not honest.

01:04:28No, it's not honest.

01:04:30So this is why it's tough for you to have, I think, like sort of the highest quality people

01:04:36in your life is because you say things that just don't make much sense.

01:04:41And then people like, I'll puzzle it out with you because it's kind of my job, right?

01:04:45So I'll sit here and say, well, hang on a second.

01:04:47Why would you describe a 50 plus year old man who preyed upon a vulnerable, broken and bullied child and

01:04:54paid him for sex?

01:04:55Like, why would you say he was sweet and nice?

01:04:57Like, that's just contradictory, right?

01:04:59Does that make sense?

01:05:00Yes.

01:05:01And then you say, well, my father was vicious to me and cold and let his wife scream at me

01:05:10and call me horrible names and put me down and then put makeup on me and didn't deal with, you

01:05:16know, 10, 12, 14 years of bullying and so on.

01:05:20And didn't protect me from online internet pornography and hypersexuality and so on, right?

01:05:26Just an appalling parent.

01:05:28I'm a father myself.

01:05:29This is fucking wretched parenting.

01:05:31This is just horrible, horrible, horrible parenting.

01:05:35Your childhood was almost pure torment, isolation, loneliness, and self-horror from beginning to end.

01:05:41Yeah.

01:05:41And it hurts me a lot if I say this to my father that he just denies it.

01:05:46He says, no, you were loved and I did everything I could.

01:05:50Which puts more of a burden on you, right?

01:05:53Because then the only reason you're unhappy is because there's something wrong with you, right?

01:05:56Yeah.

01:05:57Right.

01:05:57That feels terrible.

01:06:00Right.

01:06:00Yeah.

01:06:01So he's still sacrificing you for his own emotional comfort, right?

01:06:06Yeah.

01:06:06And also, yeah, my father remarried.

01:06:09And also, I told that story.

01:06:11And also, the wife of my father heard that.

01:06:14Sorry, you told me, hang on, hang on, which story?

01:06:18That I prostituted myself and I was very unloved, that I was very bullied, et cetera.

01:06:24Somewhat the story I told you.

01:06:25Okay.

01:06:26And she was, her first reaction was, oh my God, you grew up completely unloved, and you

01:06:32must have looked for love in all the wrong places.

01:06:34And that turned into, I think you're misremembering it.

01:06:38Sorry, what, she turned in?

01:06:40She then said, lady, you're misremembering it?

01:06:42Yeah.

01:06:42Oh, after she talked to your dad.

01:06:44Yeah.

01:06:45Okay.

01:06:45She says, I believe you're misremembering stuff.

01:06:47Okay.

01:06:48So she sided with your dad and said that you were lying about things.

01:06:52Yes.

01:06:53Okay.

01:06:53All right.

01:06:55And do you love her too?

01:06:57I want to.

01:06:58Okay.

01:07:00So you love the man who did the abuse, and you have a tough time loving the woman who

01:07:05didn't do the abuse, but thinks you're misremembering?

01:07:08Yes.

01:07:09Okay.

01:07:11All right.

01:07:11Is there anything else that I could help you with?

01:07:14I don't know.

01:07:16I mean, I'm trying to understand what it is that you want to get out of the call.

01:07:19And I'm making a case for things, and obviously it's a free will situation.

01:07:24It sounds like you don't particularly accept what it is that I'm saying, which is totally

01:07:29fine.

01:07:29Of course, you can.

01:07:30Well, can you say what I'm not accepting?

01:07:34Well, it was a lot of fighting, in a sense, or conflict to get you to admit that the guy

01:07:39who prayed on you when you were 16 was not kind, not nice.

01:07:45We've had a fair amount of back and forth on the nature of love and whether your father

01:07:51is worthy of love, and so I think we're just coming at it.

01:07:58You're taking a biblical commandment and applying it to your father, not your mother, of course,

01:08:03but to your father.

01:08:04And I'm not a biblical commandment guy.

01:08:07Like, as you know, I'm a moral philosopher from first principles.

01:08:10So, if you are taking a biblical commandment as the root of your behavior, then I think

01:08:17it would make more sense to talk to a priest than a moral philosopher, because we're just

01:08:22coming at things from very different perspectives, right?

01:08:25If the perspective is, well, the commandment is to honor thy mother and thy father, and so

01:08:30you have to love your father no matter what, then you know that's not at all where I'm

01:08:35coming from, right?

01:08:37You're right.

01:08:38If you say it the way, it does expose a huge flaw in my thinking.

01:08:43No, no, no.

01:08:44I'm not saying it's a flaw.

01:08:46I'm not saying it's a flaw.

01:08:47I'm just saying that if you have a moral commandment from God that has you believe that's why you

01:08:56have to love your father, but not your mother, then you have…

01:09:00No, but…

01:09:00Sorry, go ahead.

01:09:01What I mean is that I don't follow a commandment of God.

01:09:05It's something I like to say because it makes things easier for me.

01:09:08It makes things nice and cushy, but that's not what I'm doing here.

01:09:13I don't know what you mean.

01:09:14Sorry, you are or aren't telling the truth about that?

01:09:18I'd like that to be the truth, but it's probably not true.

01:09:22You know my head is spinning, right?

01:09:24Sorry, yeah.

01:09:25I don't know which way is up anymore.

01:09:26I really don't.

01:09:28Like, I said, love is our involuntary response to virtue.

01:09:32I think we showed that your father is not virtuous, although you tried to give me a bunch

01:09:35of his virtues, and then you backed off some of them, and then you said it was the biblical

01:09:39commandment, and now you're saying it's not the biblical commandment, but it's something

01:09:46you say.

01:09:47So, I can't really have conversations with just stuff that you say that isn't true.

01:09:51Does that make sense?

01:09:53That makes sense, yes.

01:09:54Right.

01:09:54Okay.

01:09:56So, I'm not sure what to do with the conversation if, when you say things to me, they sound like

01:10:02the truth, or they sound like that's what you believe to be the truth, and then if you

01:10:05say, well, no, no, that's not really the truth.

01:10:08That's just something I like to say that's a little tricky, if that makes sense.

01:10:12Yeah, that's tricky.

01:10:14That's true.

01:10:14It's, it's, um, um, you're making me, uh, nervous.

01:10:20Um, so...

01:10:20I'm not trying to be mean, honestly, I'm really not, I mean, it's fine, it's an interesting

01:10:24conversation, it's just that this is probably why it's tough for people to be in your life,

01:10:30because, uh, the, the, the stories are just all over the place, and they kind of contradict

01:10:36themselves, and then, and, and, and listen, I, I completely sympathize with this, this,

01:10:41you, you have the response of someone who's going to get the shit kicked out of him if

01:10:48he gives the wrong answer, and I, again, I say this with, with deep sympathy for, for

01:10:52your childhood and so on, right?

01:10:55Because when I, and this sort of comes out when I sort of criticized your dad, and you

01:10:59said I can hear him screaming in my head or whatever it is, right?

01:11:01So, people who are under threat tend to lie.

01:11:05I did as a kid, and you did as a kid, because telling the truth is way too dangerous.

01:11:13Does that make sense?

01:11:14Yeah, and that, that's something I really, I've struggled with.

01:11:17Yeah, like, you couldn't say to your mom, get this fucking makeup off me, you crazy

01:11:21bitch, right?

01:11:23No.

01:11:23Or, or some gentler form of that, like, I don't want to have makeup in the morning,

01:11:27because what would have happened if you'd have said to your mom, don't put makeup on

01:11:32me, it's wrong, it's, it's not helping my social status, to put it mildly, right?

01:11:37Yeah.

01:11:39So, and if you'd gone to your father and said, if your mom, like, insisted, I mean, what

01:11:43would your mom say if you said, I don't want to wear makeup?

01:11:47Well, I think she didn't really care what I wanted.

01:11:50I think she only cared about.

01:11:51What would she say?

01:11:53I think she would just make up a reason.

01:11:55I think I also said it a couple of times, but did she just, I had no, I had no,

01:11:59I had

01:12:00no, no saying the matter.

01:12:02Right.

01:12:02Really.

01:12:03Right.

01:12:03Okay.

01:12:04Got it.

01:12:05So, your mother would just do what you wanted, and if you were to insist, what would happen?

01:12:11Like, mom, put away the makeup, I'm not wearing makeup.

01:12:14Stop it.

01:12:15Like, I'm not doing it.

01:12:17Like, what would happen?

01:12:18She got, she would get angry, and then get verbally abusive with me, tell me she hate

01:12:24me, scream at me.

01:12:27Okay.

01:12:28Like, not things you want as a kid that's completely socially isolated.

01:12:32Oh, it's terrifying.

01:12:33Yeah, it's terrifying.

01:12:33So, you would rather get makeup put on you than have your mother say she hates you, because

01:12:38if your mother says she hates you, your chances of survival from an evolutionary standpoint go

01:12:42way down, right?

01:12:43Yeah, I think that's it.

01:12:45Okay.

01:12:45So, and what if you were to go to your father, if you were to go to your father and

01:12:50say, can

01:12:51you talk to mom, like, the makeup thing is weird, I'm not a girl, like, you need to talk

01:12:56to mom, and you need to get this, this stuff sorted out, because this is just bizarre, what

01:13:01would your father say?

01:13:03I can't really, I don't really know, but it wouldn't be positive, I think it would be

01:13:07dismissive, I think it would, oh, she just does it for this, oh, she, it would be a dismiss

01:13:12fancier, it would be dismiss me, and just downplay the problem.

01:13:17So, you wouldn't get help?

01:13:20No, I would not get help, no.

01:13:22Right.

01:13:22So, you couldn't tell the truth, and when you tried to tell the truth, like you said

01:13:26to your father, I am, I'm really missing having affection for you, and let's do things

01:13:36together, you would just be ignored, right?

01:13:38Yeah, and I also, the email, and the letters I sent him, like, this is the reason why I'm

01:13:43breaking with you, he also said, like, I didn't understand anything from it, it was just very

01:13:48weird, and I also believe that he believed that, because he also showed those letters

01:13:53to his neighbor at the time, he lived next to us, and he's like, this is so weird that

01:13:58he does that, I have no clue why he's doing this, and so, that is, yeah, he really believes

01:14:05that, he's really, that makes it very difficult, because I really believe that, he truly believes

01:14:10that, that he was a great father, and he did everything he could, I really believe that

01:14:14he believes that.

01:14:16Well, who knows?

01:14:17I mean, we can't read his mind, so there's no way to know what he does or doesn't believe.

01:14:22We just know that everything he does believe is convenient to his narrative, everything he

01:14:28does believe is the easiest and most comfortable and most pleasant thing for him to believe.

01:14:33That is true, yes.

01:14:35So, I don't think he really believes it, because it's just all too convenient for him, right?

01:14:41Maybe.

01:14:42Well, no, it is, sorry, I thought you just agreed that it was convenient to him.

01:14:46Yeah, or maybe it is, he is so delusional in that sense, maybe.

01:14:49No, no, because delusions could go either way.

01:14:52Delusions could be like, oh, I was the worst father in human history, right?

01:14:56That could be a delusion, he's probably not the worst father in human history, but if the

01:14:59delusions always go one way that perfectly serves the ego, right, then it's not accidental.

01:15:08It's not random.

01:15:09That is true.

01:15:10That is true.

01:15:12So, yeah, so the way that you respond in conversation is with the perception that you are under dire

01:15:20threat for giving the wrong answer, which is why you say things that are convenient and

01:15:25things that sound good or things that you wish were true, but you can't be direct and honest

01:15:31because you grew up under such threat.

01:15:34I think that, yeah, I think that's exactly true, but nails hammer on the head.

01:15:40Right.

01:15:40And so, because, again, and I say this with great sympathy, but because, based upon prior

01:15:47assaults, aggressions, neglect, and trauma, because of that, you have to not think about

01:15:53what is true and honest and direct.

01:15:57You have to speak under condition of threat, that if you say the wrong thing, if you get

01:16:02something wrong, you're going to die.

01:16:05Because that's, I think, how it was when you were growing up, or that the perception was

01:16:09parental abandonment is the fear of death, right?

01:16:13Yeah, especially as a child, yeah, it's all like that.

01:16:16So, I would say that one of the reasons it's tough for you to connect with people is because

01:16:23everything has to go through a filter of, will I get attacked and destroyed, for being

01:16:29honest.

01:16:31I think that's true.

01:16:32Yeah.

01:16:33I do, I do, I have, I did lie a lot about silly things.

01:16:38Well, hang on, see, I hear what you're saying, and of course, technically you're right, but

01:16:43lying generally is a moral judgment based upon a voluntary situation, if that makes sense.

01:16:52How do you mean that?

01:16:53Well, so, if a guy says to a woman, hey, I want to be your boyfriend, and we're going

01:16:59to have a wonderful life together, and maybe we can get married and have children, when all

01:17:02he does want to do is sleep with her, that would be lying, right?

01:17:07Yeah, absolutely.

01:17:08And no one's forcing him to do that.

01:17:10True.

01:17:13If a man has his children kidnapped, and then is forced to defraud someone, like maybe he's

01:17:21the manager of a bank, right?

01:17:22And some robber kidnaps his children and says, you need to get this amount of money transferred,

01:17:28and the man calls up the bank and pretends that he needs this money transferred, and so

01:17:33on, right, and gives the passcode, and tries to make some jokes, and appear normal, because

01:17:38he's terrified his children are going to be harmed, right?

01:17:41Is he lying?

01:17:43Not really, technically, but no.

01:17:45Well, he wouldn't, I mean, if he was choosing to defraud someone, he would go to jail.

01:17:49In that situation, I don't think he would.

01:17:52No, I don't think so either.

01:17:54So, when you say that you're lying, without taking into the context that you were under

01:17:59dire threat of abuse, abandonment, neglect, destruction, then I would be hesitant to say

01:18:07that you were just lying.

01:18:09Yeah.

01:18:10Although it doesn't feel like that.

01:18:13Sorry, it doesn't feel, it feels like you would just, you just were lying, like for no

01:18:17particular cause.

01:18:18Yeah, because that's kind of what I hear, and I can get, yeah, the attack on me, is that

01:18:26I always lied as a kid.

01:18:28Well, I would not say that you lie, I say that you grew up under a situation of a death

01:18:34threat.

01:18:36Somewhat, yeah.

01:18:38Well, I mean, what do you mean by somewhat?

01:18:41Well, yeah.

01:18:42I mean, I get that your parents weren't, they weren't hanging you over a bridge, I fully

01:18:46understand that.

01:18:47Yeah.

01:18:47But if your mother says, I hate you, and your father doesn't intervene, then that's really

01:18:55disastrous.

01:18:56Yeah, absolutely.

01:18:58Yeah.

01:19:00Yeah.

01:19:01So, I think the problem is, of course, when you're around your father, you are reactivating

01:19:06that threat, because you have to lie with your father.

01:19:12Yes, I have to, yeah, I have to lie with him, that is true.

01:19:15I can't explain, also, after all these years, I do still feel the need to tell him and to

01:19:23talk about how it was in the past.

01:19:25And that's also something I did, like, even after our relationship was, quote unquote, kind

01:19:30of going well, I still try to put it on stake to have a talk about it, like, and really

01:19:36dive

01:19:36into the past.

01:19:38Like, what happened here?

01:19:39Why were you this way?

01:19:41And, yeah, the answers were very disappointing, not even disappointing, but really, well, like

01:19:49you said, like, convenient for him.

01:19:50I lie.

01:19:51He just did the best he could.

01:19:52And, yeah, I was just a terrible child.

01:19:56That's kind of the stretch of it.

01:19:58Right.

01:19:59Right.

01:19:59So, I mean, that's the price of being around your father, is that it is going to continue

01:20:04to reactivate this terror of telling the truth.

01:20:08And if you have a terror of telling the truth, then it's going to be hard for honest people

01:20:15to be in your life.

01:20:17Yeah, I think so.

01:20:18I think that is true.

01:20:20And so, listen, obviously, you can make your own choices.

01:20:24My job, of course, is not to make any decisions for you, which I would never want to do, but

01:20:29it's simply to say the costs and benefits of that, of the decisions that you're making.

01:20:35Yeah, although it feels like I don't have that decision anymore, because the prospect of,

01:20:41like, finding other people, like, in your 30s, that kind of drops dramatically.

01:20:45It's hard to have people who can really integrate into your life at this stage in my life.

01:20:50So, I feel like maybe it's pragmatism, where I just kind of grab what I can't grab.

01:20:57Because it feels like, if I say to my father, like, hey, I really want to talk about the

01:21:01past.

01:21:02And if we can't talk about it, like, we're not going to talk.

01:21:04Um, I feel that I'm, I'm putting myself up for absolute, I feel like deaf.

01:21:11That's not, that's another deaf sentence.

01:21:14Sure.

01:21:15Sure.

01:21:16Right.

01:21:17No, I, I, I understand that.

01:21:20And I, if you're going to make the decision to stay in contact with your father, obviously,

01:21:24that's your decision.

01:21:25And I can understand that eight years of not being in contact with others is very tough.

01:21:30And I'm not going to try and just, hey, that's no big thing.

01:21:32That is a big thing.

01:21:33And I really sympathize with that as well.

01:21:36But just, you can do whatever you want, as long as you're conscious about it.

01:21:41That might sort of general argument is, it's really important to be conscious about it.

01:21:44So, if you choose to stay in touch with your father, the price of that is going to be that

01:21:48you're going to have to misrepresent things to him.

01:21:49And you're going to have to not, obviously not tell the truth and not ask for any kind

01:21:55of apology or restitution or anything like that.

01:21:58Yeah.

01:21:59Yeah.

01:22:00And that does bother me a lot.

01:22:01It does bother me because every, every full moon, I still think about it.

01:22:06I still feel terrible about it.

01:22:08I still feel, I, and I, I always stay, say to myself that I'm just being selfish.

01:22:13It's just, um, um, I, why would I want acknowledgement for something that happened so long ago?

01:22:19I can't, I'm, that's also what my father says.

01:22:21Cause I'm grown up now.

01:22:22I'm all grown up.

01:22:23Um, I have a good job.

01:22:25Um, I, I'm my, I'm my own man now.

01:22:28Why, why would I need that?

01:22:30And, but, but there's still like a child inside of me that still really, really wants that.

01:22:35It's still having an effect.

01:22:36What about, um, sorry, go ahead.

01:22:39Well, it still has an effect.

01:22:40Absolutely.

01:22:42What were you saying?

01:22:42Uh, how old is your father?

01:22:4662, 63.

01:22:48Okay.

01:22:48Got it.

01:22:49Got it.

01:22:50Okay.

01:22:51Yeah.

01:22:51I mean, is his health good?

01:22:54His health is good.

01:22:55Yeah.

01:22:55His health is fine.

01:22:56Okay, good.

01:22:56Yeah.

01:22:57I mean, so, I mean, the, one of the problems with being closer to your parents than having

01:23:01a partner is because, uh, your father is going to die many, many decades before you do.

01:23:08Probably.

01:23:10And so that's a, it's a short-term gain, long-term pain, if that makes sense.

01:23:16Yeah, absolutely.

01:23:18That's true.

01:23:19But also, is it, uh, I don't know if it will be mutually exclusive, like if I choose to

01:23:25remain in contact with my father, but maybe, yeah.

01:23:29I don't know if I can really, um, change that relationship, if I can really change my mind

01:23:35where I can just say, okay, like this happened, it's really hurt, it really hurts me.

01:23:39I'm kind of, um, betraying myself or betraying my inner child or however you want to call

01:23:44it, that I'm still having contact with him.

01:23:47I'm, I'm not really being truthful.

01:23:49I'm, I'm kind of, um, you, you, you said it better.

01:23:52Um, I'm not, can't really find your words.

01:23:55Um, how, yeah, um, is that really going to exclude me from having a partner?

01:24:03And, I don't know.

01:24:04Well, I mean, no, so you can just be honest, right?

01:24:07So, if you say to me, I am full of love for my abusive father, who's never repented and

01:24:12screams at me or yells at me or insults me if I try to bring up the past or won't

01:24:16talk

01:24:16about it or whatever, right?

01:24:17So, if you say, look, I mean, my father has his problems, we have some good times together,

01:24:22I just have to ignore the past, and the problem is that I spent eight years alone, and it's

01:24:27better to have someone than nothing.

01:24:29Listen, that, that's honest, right?

01:24:31The problem isn't the choices that you're making, in particular, that's not the major problem.

01:24:36The major problem is that there's a lot of gaslighting and misrepresentation about it.

01:24:41Like, I love my father and blah, blah, blah, and this guy who, who statutorily raped me for

01:24:46money when I was 16 is a nice, kind guy.

01:24:48It's not the choices, it's the falsehood or gaslighting about the choices that is going

01:24:54to keep people at bay, if that makes sense.

01:24:57Yeah.

01:24:58Yeah.

01:24:58But it's very hard to be honest, because honesty, as always, equated, well, death or dire

01:25:05consequences, at least.

01:25:08Right, right, right.

01:25:10Okay, is there anything else that I could help you with?

01:25:15I don't know.

01:25:17I do want to thank you a lot.

01:25:19Oh, my pleasure, and I'm sorry if I was a little bit harsh, but I hope it was helpful.

01:25:24It was very helpful.

01:25:26It does put a lot of things into perspective, and I have a lot of thinking to do.

01:25:31Okay, good.

01:25:32Well, I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going, and I certainly do wish you

01:25:35the very best going forward.

01:25:36And once again, I'm incredibly sorry about what happened to you as a child.

01:25:39That should happen to no one, and I'm just heartbroken about the way that it went down,

01:25:44and I obviously commend you on having a pretty good life at the moment, despite this just

01:25:50awful start.

01:25:51Well, thank you.

01:25:53And just to reiterate, you helped me tremendously, Stefan.

01:25:58Well, thank you very much.

01:25:59You're very welcome.

01:26:00Take care, man.

01:26:01Bye-bye.

01:26:01Thanks.

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