I was a Teenage Prostitute! CALL IN SHOW

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux guides a long-time caller's bullying scars and parental neglect alienation through love's raw complexities to forge healing connections.  0:00:00 Opening Reflections  0:03:05 The Burden of Alienation  0:04:54 Navigating Dating Difficulties  0:05:53 Relationship History Revealed  0:06:28 Understanding Past Relationships  0:09:28 Sexual Identity Exploration  0:11:26 Childhood Struggles Unveiled  0:14:36 Parental Relationships Explored  0:17:59 Turning Points in Life  0:19:17 The Journey of Self-Discovery  0:20:29 Confronting the Past  0:23:53 The Complexity of Love  0:29:00 Navigating Emotional Connections  0:34:29 Reconnecting with Family  0:42:56 Reevaluating Parental Virtues  0:48:43 The Weight of Truth  0:55:54 Seeking Clarity in Choices  0:59:23 The Cost of Connection  1:04:16 Embracing Complexity in Relationships  1:08:48 Honest Reflections on the Past   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00:00Right, so let me just make sure I've got the backup recording running here.

00:00:05It's a public call, so if you could stay off names and places,

00:00:07I would be thrilled beyond measure.

00:00:10And, yeah, if you want to read your notes

00:00:12or you want to just tell me how I can best help, I'm happy to jump in.

00:00:16Can I maybe say something first?

00:00:18Of course.

00:00:19Well, first I want to thank you very much.

00:00:23I've been listening to you for about, I think, 19 years now.

00:00:27Wow, that's fantastic.

00:00:29I've been listening to you.

00:00:30Yeah, when you're, like, first starting out in your car,

00:00:33I think I watched a lot of your videos.

00:00:37I've always been very inclined to listen to philosophy and read philosophy.

00:00:42I've always been quite cerebral, like the Tink.

00:00:45And you've been quite instrumental in shaping me

00:00:47and shaping my, well, like my, how do you call it, my ontology.

00:00:56You've been a very big figure in my life.

00:00:58And you've shaped me in a lot of ways.

00:01:01And I would just like to thank you for that.

00:01:03I very much appreciate that.

00:01:05And I think you get some sort of award or bell for the longest listener in a while.

00:01:08So thank you.

00:01:10Okay.

00:01:10That's nice.

00:01:11I'm also very sad to see your YouTube channel that it was deleted because your YouTube channel,

00:01:16it was such a great treasure of so much information with this myriad, so many experts on all these topics.

00:01:23When you put in so much depth.

00:01:26And it's such a shame that it's not there anymore.

00:01:30And so, yeah, thank you for that.

00:01:34So my question, I was, well, the last few years have been quite good for me in some ways.

00:01:43It's material, they've been well, in the material plane, they've been well.

00:01:48So life hasn't been treating me bad.

00:01:51Yet I do feel that there is, I feel that I'm becoming a little bit more misanthropic.

00:01:57I'm not depressed, although I do feel I'm starting to become a bit alienated in the way that I don't

00:02:07really feel that I want to participate anymore with people around me, with society.

00:02:14I just, I don't feel that I can really relate to people anymore.

00:02:22That my inner, how I perceive stuff is so far from people, from the normal person.

00:02:31And it's hard for me to relate to people anymore.

00:02:35And I don't really want to, it's hard for me to make an effort into people, to get to know

00:02:39them, to really be truly interested in them.

00:02:44And I want to explore whether this is just perception.

00:02:47This is an inner defense mechanism of something psychological going on.

00:02:52Or this is just the truth that the world is getting duller, more dumb, more, what's going on?

00:03:02Does that make sense to you?

00:03:04I'm sorry, I'm really nervous.

00:03:06I'm happy to hear more of that.

00:03:07When did you first notice this really beginning to kick in with you?

00:03:11I think it started to kick in way before COVID.

00:03:15But when the pandemic hit, it really started to hit me.

00:03:19My life kind of became a constant struggle with the people around me.

00:03:23If I went to, I didn't wear the mask.

00:03:26So the struggle was like a real tangible struggle.

00:03:30Like I went to do a supermarket.

00:03:31It was like calls of people like telling me, sir, sir, you need to wear the mask.

00:03:35And it was really like a battle, like a constant uphill battle.

00:03:42And I really found out that really so few people see things my way.

00:03:49And when I first started listening to you a very long time ago, I kind of had this feeling that,

00:03:57well, we're getting all this information.

00:03:58And people are getting smarter.

00:04:00We have the Flynn effect.

00:04:02And I feel that I really thought that when I was this age, I thought people would, I would have

00:04:09a circle around me of like-minded people who I could be around.

00:04:13And although I have really tried my best into finding this circle and getting these people around me, I have

00:04:21failed in that.

00:04:22I could not find these people.

00:04:24I have not found them.

00:04:26I don't have a prospect of finding them.

00:04:29And I'm just starting to believe that they are not there, that there are very few between, maybe one in

00:04:38a thousand or less.

00:04:41And, yeah, I feel, especially the last few years, I feel I'm becoming quite despondent.

00:04:48And that kind of that dream of finding my people, quote unquote, has kind of died within me.

00:04:55Right.

00:04:56Okay.

00:04:57All right.

00:04:57And how is your dating life?

00:05:00Dating life?

00:05:02Well, I have a date tomorrow.

00:05:05So it's not non-existent, but it has really, my dating life is not really here.

00:05:12Especially the last few years, I went on a couple of dates, but not many.

00:05:16And what about your history?

00:05:18My history?

00:05:20Not good.

00:05:20I have a very bad dating history.

00:05:23I have a very bad relational history.

00:05:25I have only had a handful of relationships.

00:05:28Not anyone.

00:05:30Not, they didn't last long.

00:05:32Also have, I didn't, yeah, I didn't have like good role models for good relationships.

00:05:39But yeah, I don't really.

00:05:41And also, I kind of gave up hope on that, that I'll find a partner.

00:05:45I kind of gave up hope, to be honest.

00:05:48And how old are you now?

00:05:49How old am I?

00:05:51Yes.

00:05:5237.

00:05:53All right.

00:05:54So you've been in the dating market a little over 20 years.

00:05:57And what's the longest relationship you've had?

00:05:59My longest relationship was a year.

00:06:02When was that?

00:06:03That was, I think, six years ago.

00:06:06And tell me a little bit about that.

00:06:10It was a homosexual relationship.

00:06:16I was with another man.

00:06:19And we broke up.

00:06:20I like that clarification.

00:06:21It was a homosexual relationship with another man.

00:06:25Yes.

00:06:25It's like how my daughter used to say, 2 p.m. in the afternoon.

00:06:28Anyway, sorry, go on.

00:06:29Yeah, sorry.

00:06:31Yeah, that was, we broke up because, well, he broke up with me because I made jokes that he didn't

00:06:39like.

00:06:40And it was kind of like, also, that feeling kind of slipped in there because he broke up with me.

00:06:45Because I started making some jokes that are just kind of edgy, I guess.

00:06:49But to him, not to me.

00:06:53And also, I was just kind of trying to be myself.

00:06:56Like, okay, if I really say the things that are really within my heart and I say them out loud,

00:07:01will people run away?

00:07:02And yeah, they'll run away from me.

00:07:05So there's this nagging feeling.

00:07:07Like, if I really open up, if I really show myself, if I really say what I, from the bottom

00:07:12of my heart, believe and feel, people will run away from me.

00:07:17And also, what also doesn't help is that I'm not that pretty.

00:07:20So that also doesn't help my dating life.

00:07:22I mean, I saw your video at the beginning.

00:07:24You're a good looking guy.

00:07:25Uh, not that really.

00:07:27No, not that great, I guess.

00:07:30Well, thanks for compliment, but I don't agree.

00:07:34I mean, you're not overweight, you've got a nice head of hair, a nice beard, I mean, good facial structure.

00:07:39I mean, is there something that you consider negative, that's strong, that I don't know?

00:07:43Yeah, I think you only see, like, a side profile.

00:07:46I have quite an asymmetrical face, so.

00:07:50So are you, was this a one-time thing?

00:07:52Are you bisexual?

00:07:53Are you gay?

00:07:56Actually, I really don't know.

00:08:00I think bisexual or...

00:08:01The aesthetic, the physical attraction standards in the gay community are insane.

00:08:07Yeah.

00:08:08And, you know, if you're not ripped and look like Ricky Martin or whatever, right?

00:08:11I mean, it's, it's really quite mad in the gay community, just how the, I mean, not in all, right?

00:08:17But in general, in the gay community, the body standards are nuts.

00:08:21That is true, but I also feel that has also kind of shifted over to the heterosexual relationships,

00:08:28because now with the looks maxing, I don't know if you heard about that trend.

00:08:31Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:08:33It has become so atomized, and, like, men have become, like, this atomized self-beautification

00:08:38objects, and, like, looks is becoming so incredibly important.

00:08:44And also, with all these dating apps, like, back in the day, you had, like, competition

00:08:50of, like, the men around you, like, 100 people around you, that was your competition, and

00:08:54now my competition is, like, the world, like, millions of people.

00:08:58And also, I see it with myself, when you're swiping on these apps, it's so easy to have,

00:09:03like, the feeling, oh, just a couple of swipes further, and I'll find my perfect partner.

00:09:11And also, this feeling that you can just get a little bit better if you just keep on swiping.

00:09:17So, if you're not at 10, it feels like, yeah, there's just too much, the supply and demand

00:09:25is really skewed.

00:09:27It feels like that.

00:09:28Okay.

00:09:29So, you are asexual, bisexual, gay, demisexual, straight?

00:09:34He said you don't know, so I don't know what I don't know means.

00:09:37You have a sex drive.

00:09:38Is it toasterous?

00:09:39Like, what is it aimed at?

00:09:42It's very hard for me to, I kind of shoved it under the, um, god, bit asexual, I guess.

00:09:52I don't really think about it that much.

00:09:55Although, when I do, it kind of goes all over the place.

00:09:58I guess the best would be bisexual.

00:10:01I guess that's, if you really want to quantify it, bisexual, I guess.

00:10:07So, are you saying that your sex drive is low?

00:10:11Yeah.

00:10:11It's not a good system, I'm just, I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming

00:10:14from.

00:10:15Yeah.

00:10:15It's quite low.

00:10:17Okay.

00:10:17All right.

00:10:18And, was that always the case?

00:10:21Was it higher at some point in the past?

00:10:24Well, I was 14 once, so, yeah, it was higher.

00:10:28But, yeah, that kind of gradually became less.

00:10:32And, um, like, I started dating when I was, like,

00:10:3720, um, had a girlfriend, had a boyfriend, um, and sex drive was high then, I guess.

00:10:44It's, it's still not, like, my sex drive is completely gone, but, um, it's just, I don't

00:10:48want to give into it, I guess.

00:10:50I don't want to think about it.

00:10:52It's something I like to shove, um, put away.

00:10:55I like to put it on the, in the icebox, so to speak.

00:10:58And, uh, why do you think that is?

00:11:02Um, I think I had very, um, bad examples, uh, for how relationships look like and worked.

00:11:10Um, so I, I've never really seen people, like, happily in love.

00:11:16I never experienced that.

00:11:17And, um, also my youth, my, uh, I was, like, bullied, like, a lot.

00:11:22And, uh, I, I didn't have a nice, uh, youth, like, uh, quite a horrible one, actually.

00:11:27I'm sorry about that.

00:11:28Tell me, uh, what happened in your childhood?

00:11:31Um, I got horrifically bullied, um, like, really horrifically bullied.

00:11:37Um, so when I went to school, um, for elementary school, like, when I was, like, from six to,

00:11:42like, 12, I got, like, bullied, the, the, the most harsh from the entire school.

00:11:48And I had very bad parental relationships.

00:11:51I did not like my parents.

00:11:53My parents, like, especially my mother, did not like me.

00:11:56So when I got home, um, the first thing I would do is go upstairs.

00:12:01And if my parents would walk up the stairs, I would just hold my breath and hope they would

00:12:06walk away.

00:12:07And, um, so if I would just go to school, I would dissociate and I would just be completely

00:12:13bullied by everyone.

00:12:14Uh, when I got home, I would just hide in my room, hope.

00:12:18Nobody would find me.

00:12:19And, um, I guess I didn't have a good start in that sense.

00:12:25So what was going on with your parents?

00:12:28Um, my parents both, um, although from different families and really different stories in those

00:12:36families, they both did not come from good families.

00:12:39Um, both have a lot of problems.

00:12:41Uh, my mother's side, especially came from a very large family.

00:12:46Um, everything horrid that happened in that family, like abuse, poverty, um, hunger, um,

00:12:53like, uh, everything horrible, uh, that you can imagine happened there.

00:12:59And also for my father's sides, also, um, quite some bad stuff happened there.

00:13:05Um, suicide attempts.

00:13:07Um, uh, my grandpa was in the police, uh, Indonesian police, uh, actions in Indonesia.

00:13:14And, uh, he, he, yeah, he did a lot of bad stuff there and he took that home.

00:13:20Um, um, so my parents both were not, um, very healthy people in expressing their relation,

00:13:29in having healthy relationship with each other.

00:13:31Like, I don't have really, um, memories of my father, um, have showing affection to my

00:13:39mother.

00:13:39Like, that's something I never, ever experienced.

00:13:42All right.

00:13:43And were you aggressed against yourself?

00:13:45Uh, sorry, I did not hear that.

00:13:47Aggress?

00:13:48Uh, yeah.

00:13:48Were you aggressed against yourself?

00:13:50Like, your parents, did they hit you?

00:13:51Did they beat you?

00:13:52Did they spank you?

00:13:53Uh, not, not really.

00:13:55I got spanked twice.

00:13:57Um, I talked about it with my parents, but they denied it.

00:13:59It never happened, uh, according to them.

00:14:02Um, but yeah, it did happen, but, uh, not that bad, but, uh, it did happen.

00:14:07And do you have siblings?

00:14:09I have a half sister who was, uh, 10 years older than me.

00:14:14And I moved out of my house, uh, when I was 16 because it was really bad at, at, uh,

00:14:20at,

00:14:20at my parental house.

00:14:21So I moved with my sister and I lived with her for about three years.

00:14:25And, uh, she was, uh, she was like a mother to me.

00:14:28Huh?

00:14:28How much older?

00:14:3011 years older than me.

00:14:3211 or 10.

00:14:33I don't know.

00:14:33Right.

00:14:34Okay.

00:14:37So how did you ever have any close connection with your parents at all?

00:14:40Cause you know, the bullying usually comes because the parents are quite distant, right?

00:14:44Yeah.

00:14:45And also I, I had a conversation with my parents and, uh, also I told him like, um, you know,

00:14:51I had very bad parental relationship and you just saw this on me.

00:14:54Like if I see pictures of myself from that time, you just see this kid has nowhere to go.

00:14:59This kid has nowhere to go to.

00:15:00And, uh, he just looks weak and like a prey and just kids pick up on that, on that like

00:15:05very easily.

00:15:07Right.

00:15:07Okay.

00:15:08And did you do any kind of sports or anything like that that might've countered some of

00:15:11the bullying?

00:15:12Yeah.

00:15:13I, uh, went to the kickboxing and judo, uh, kickboxing is something I kept on for very long.

00:15:18So I did kickboxing for about 10 years, I think.

00:15:21Um, so really like that.

00:15:23So the bullying stopped.

00:15:24Um, also I'm six, six, I'm quite tall.

00:15:26So the bullying stopped when I became, uh, big and tall and strong, but, um, also six, six,

00:15:33and you have concerns about your physical appearance.

00:15:36Well, uh, it's, I'm quite, um, yeah, yeah, I do.

00:15:41Yeah.

00:15:42Okay.

00:15:42I just, I can hear all the short guys screaming, but anyway, go on.

00:15:46Um, so yeah, I, I did some kickboxing and that stopped the bullying.

00:15:51Um, but the bullying, uh, went all, went on through high school and it only really stopped

00:15:57at college when I was just an adult.

00:16:00So tell me a bit about the bullying.

00:16:01What would happen?

00:16:03Um, people would just make fun of me because I would just, uh, I looked really, um, I don't

00:16:10know how to translate this in English, but I, um, like, uh, really recessed chin.

00:16:15That kind of evened out now.

00:16:17Um, but, um, I just looked, um, really lanky.

00:16:21I was just really tall, really skinny.

00:16:24Um, I just looked a bit silly and, uh, and just a very socially awkward.

00:16:30So, um, yeah, they just, um, ripped me apart.

00:16:33Like I, I, it was really brutal.

00:16:35It was, um, yeah, just making fun of me, um, calling me names, um, social exclusion.

00:16:42Um, so that, um, yeah, it wasn't fun.

00:16:46Um, I did kind of get some friends when I was a bit older.

00:16:49I have started hanging out with the golf kids and, uh, started smoking cigarettes and,

00:16:53uh, smoking weed and hang out with the cool kids.

00:16:57Sorry, did you say golf kids?

00:16:58Yeah, golf kids.

00:16:59Oh, golf.

00:17:00Sorry, say it's golf.

00:17:01Okay, golf kids.

00:17:01Okay, got it.

00:17:02That makes a bit more sense.

00:17:03Okay, go ahead.

00:17:04So, uh, I did get some friends, uh, although, uh, the only thing that bothered us was weed

00:17:11and alcohol, to be honest.

00:17:13Um, but I did get some friends that way.

00:17:16Okay.

00:17:17All right.

00:17:18And when you first began to get your hormones and so on, was there, um, what did you do in

00:17:27terms of attractiveness or being attracted to people and so on?

00:17:32Um, I don't really understand the question.

00:17:34What did I do?

00:17:35How do you mean?

00:17:35Yeah, I mean, did you start asking boys out or girls out or anything like that?

00:17:39Um, I, uh, that's quite a horror, horrible story here.

00:17:44Um, I, uh, started prostituting myself.

00:17:48Uh, okay.

00:17:50Go on.

00:17:52Um, so when I was 16, I started that and that kind of went on till I was like, uh,

00:17:5723, 24.

00:17:59Okay.

00:18:00So tell me a bit about that.

00:18:03Um, I, um, I was just, um, I got on the internet and I found this website where you could

00:18:10come

00:18:10into contact with people, with other men, uh, gay men.

00:18:14And one of these guys gave me a lot of attention.

00:18:17Uh, this is something I really liked.

00:18:19And also then I found out you could also make a lot of money with that.

00:18:23And that's, uh, something I gravitated towards, um, I feel horrible saying it and thinking

00:18:28about it.

00:18:29Um, but that is what I did.

00:18:31What do you, what do you feel about it?

00:18:33Horrible, uh, disgusted.

00:18:35Um, although I, I, I kind of gave it a place now.

00:18:39Um, it is, um, it is what it is.

00:18:43It is something, um, yeah.

00:18:46So my most of my...

00:18:47Sorry, were you, were you grim?

00:18:48Is that, is that what happened?

00:18:50Uh, not really.

00:18:51I, I kind of looked for it myself.

00:18:53Uh, maybe I was groomed for the first time, but, uh, the, the other encounters, I really

00:18:58seek them out myself.

00:18:59Um, also for a monetary financial incentive, which was really big at that time.

00:19:06I mean, everybody has monetary financial incentives.

00:19:08It's not common to take this path.

00:19:10So, uh, tell me about the, the first time, cause I mean, that's, that's the bandaid off,

00:19:16so to speak with regards to your conscience and tell me how that came out.

00:19:19How about?

00:19:21Um, the first time I did that for money is, um, I was just in a really bad place.

00:19:27I, um, got bullied in school tremendously.

00:19:30Um, I kind of started doubting whether I was straight or I was gay.

00:19:34Um, I, I found this validation.

00:19:37I had, I had sex one time with, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with another man.

00:19:41Um, and after that I went on this website and you could just, um, kind of...

00:19:47Sorry, you said you had sex with another man.

00:19:49And how old were you?

00:19:50Yeah.

00:19:51Uh, 16.

00:19:52And how old was the man?

00:19:54Um, he was relatively young.

00:19:56He was about 24.

00:19:57But, um, but the first time I prostituted myself was, um...

00:20:01Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on.

00:20:02Let me just do one at a time.

00:20:03One at a time.

00:20:04Yeah.

00:20:04One horrible story at a time.

00:20:05Okay.

00:20:06So, you were 16, he was 24.

00:20:09Yes.

00:20:10Is that legal where you are?

00:20:11Don't tell me where you are, but I'm just, that, that seems not legal.

00:20:16I don't think it was legal.

00:20:17No.

00:20:18That was probably not legal.

00:20:19No.

00:20:20Okay.

00:20:20So, it's not, it's not really like having sex if it's not legal, right?

00:20:24Does that change the definition of sex?

00:20:27If it's legal or not?

00:20:27Of course.

00:20:29Okay.

00:20:29I mean, certainly in the eyes of the law, it would be statutory rape if it wasn't legal, right?

00:20:34Yeah.

00:20:34Although, I did consent.

00:20:36Not really, though.

00:20:37No, no.

00:20:38I didn't know what I was getting myself into.

00:20:39Sorry, sorry to be annoying.

00:20:41The whole, the whole point of the age gap is that you can't consent because you're still a child.

00:20:48Yeah.

00:20:48Well, he did abuse me in that sense.

00:20:50Like, he took advantage of me.

00:20:52He knew I was naive and he took advantage of me.

00:20:55Well, he knew you were still legally a child, right?

00:20:58Yeah.

00:20:59Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:59Now, you could say, like, it's one thing, and some places have sort of, if you're close in age, it's

00:21:04not so bad, but he was at brain maturity.

00:21:07You were still almost 10 years away from brain maturity.

00:21:10Yeah.

00:21:11Right?

00:21:12Yes.

00:21:14So, that's terrible.

00:21:16And how did you meet him?

00:21:18Internet.

00:21:19Through the internet to a chat site.

00:21:21And we just exchanged numbers and he called me and I was really flattered by the attention I got.

00:21:26And the interest he showed in me.

00:21:28And then I met him at his house.

00:21:30And naive of me, I thought he just wanted to talk and just talk with me.

00:21:36And, yeah, he just started kissing me.

00:21:40And, yeah, it just ended quite...

00:21:44So, you went to a friend and then he had sex with you.

00:21:47Yeah.

00:21:49Or had statutory rape with you or something like that, right?

00:21:53Yeah.

00:21:53I'm so sorry.

00:21:55I mean, it's just terrible.

00:21:56It's just terrible.

00:21:57I'm just sorry.

00:21:59That's just awful.

00:22:02Yeah.

00:22:02Yeah, it is.

00:22:03And you said he abused you.

00:22:04And then, do you mean just in terms of the age difference or do you mean something else?

00:22:08No, in terms of the age difference because I really went in there with completely different expectations.

00:22:14I kind of left there feeling...

00:22:17In the moment, I was kind of...

00:22:18I felt glad because I felt really mature in that moment.

00:22:23I felt like I was an adult now.

00:22:26Weird.

00:22:29But, yeah, it really wasn't good.

00:22:32It was, yeah, a bad thing that he did.

00:22:35And was there any pleasure in it at all?

00:22:39No, it was very hard for me.

00:22:41I don't think I came or ejaculated.

00:22:43I just...

00:22:45It all went...

00:22:46It happened really quick and I was just kind of overrun by the whole experience.

00:22:51And I was just very, very shy and very...

00:22:55I didn't know what was happening.

00:22:56And I was just very naive and stupid.

00:23:00Well, no, no.

00:23:01Hang on.

00:23:01Don't call yourself naive and stupid.

00:23:02You were unprotected and preyed upon.

00:23:06Yeah.

00:23:07Again, I'm very sorry.

00:23:08It's just wrong.

00:23:11It's just wrong.

00:23:12Okay.

00:23:14And how long did that...

00:23:15I don't know if we can call it a relationship or whatever you want to say.

00:23:18But how long did that last?

00:23:20Only the one time.

00:23:22Because I did have...

00:23:23He tried to call me afterwards.

00:23:24And then I had like this moment of consciousness crisis where I didn't want to engage with him anymore.

00:23:30I saw that only that one night.

00:23:33Right.

00:23:34Okay.

00:23:35All right.

00:23:36Okay.

00:23:37And so that was not good.

00:23:40Because he basically got you out there to...

00:23:44On the basis of friendship and then sort of jumped to you, right?

00:23:48Yeah.

00:23:49Yeah, exactly.

00:23:50Okay.

00:23:53Sorry about that.

00:23:54And then how long was it after that that you began to think about being a prostitute?

00:24:01Very short.

00:24:03Very short.

00:24:04I think two, three months after that, I had another man who I met.

00:24:09He was a much older man.

00:24:11He was about 50, 60.

00:24:14And he had promises of a lot of money.

00:24:17And so I went with him.

00:24:20Sorry.

00:24:21He was very joined.

00:24:21He was how old?

00:24:23He was held?

00:24:24How do you mean...

00:24:24Sorry.

00:24:24No.

00:24:24Sorry.

00:24:25He was how old?

00:24:26I think he was in his 50s.

00:24:28And you were 16 or 17?

00:24:3116.

00:24:32You were 16.

00:24:33And was this sort of a nakedly financial relationship?

00:24:39Yeah.

00:24:40And I do have...

00:24:41I don't have fond memories of that man.

00:24:44But he was very kind.

00:24:45And he was very sweet.

00:24:46And he was very aware of the situation.

00:24:50He said like, oh, you're 16.

00:24:51You're just a child.

00:24:52Are you trying to give me a fucking aneurysm here, bro?

00:24:55No, sorry.

00:24:56No, seriously.

00:24:56What the fuck are you doing?

00:24:59Almost 20 years have you been listening to my show.

00:25:01And you're talking about a sweet man in his 50s who pays a child for sex.

00:25:08Yeah, that's not sweet.

00:25:09Like, Jesus, man.

00:25:11Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

00:25:13I don't mean this in an aggressive way.

00:25:15But like, what are you trying to do?

00:25:17But...

00:25:18No, you're in a state of unconsciousness here.

00:25:22You're talking without any...

00:25:24Emotional connection here.

00:25:26And I don't mean this in a critical way.

00:25:27I'm not trying to be an ag or anything like that.

00:25:29I'm just pointing it out.

00:25:31Because, I mean, you understand that if you say things like that to me,

00:25:35it puts me in a kind of fucked up position, right?

00:25:38Yeah, you're right.

00:25:39And again, I'm not trying to be an ag.

00:25:41And I do apologize for any harshness.

00:25:43But it's a very unconscious conversation if this is where you're at,

00:25:51that you're trying to tell me this guy was nice and sweet.

00:25:54He wasn't nice and sweet.

00:25:55But I'm not trying to defend the guy,

00:25:58but I'm just trying to describe him.

00:26:01Yeah.

00:26:01As in, he had nice mannerisms.

00:26:03Hang on.

00:26:03His mannerisms were...

00:26:04Hang on.

00:26:05Are you describing him accurately?

00:26:08No.

00:26:09I'm only describing the...

00:26:13How he presented himself.

00:26:15He presented himself as a very sweet old man.

00:26:18He wasn't, clearly.

00:26:20But that's how he presented himself.

00:26:21If I didn't understand it, he was a criminal.

00:26:24Yeah, exactly.

00:26:25Again, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't he a criminal?

00:26:29He is a criminal.

00:26:30Absolutely.

00:26:31I mean, he's paying a child for sex.

00:26:33Yeah.

00:26:34He's paying to commit a crime.

00:26:35And the paying is also a crime.

00:26:38Yeah.

00:26:39So, help me understand what's going on here.

00:26:43Well, it's mostly comparative.

00:26:46Because it wasn't just that man.

00:26:48Don't intellectualize with me.

00:26:50Mostly comparative.

00:26:52What does that mean?

00:26:53That's just...

00:26:54That's just...

00:26:54It's yapping.

00:26:55That's just a word.

00:26:56What does that mean?

00:26:57It's mostly comparative.

00:26:57I'm asking what's going on that you would try and sell me

00:27:00this horrible human being as nice and sweet.

00:27:03And again, I'm sorry to be harsh.

00:27:05I'm just...

00:27:05I don't know where we're at.

00:27:08I shouldn't sell him as that.

00:27:09You were right.

00:27:10No.

00:27:10And again, I'm not trying to be critical.

00:27:12I'm trying to understand what's going on with your mind or mindset

00:27:16here at the moment.

00:27:17I was just trying to describe him.

00:27:20No.

00:27:20I understand what you were doing.

00:27:24The question is, why were you doing it?

00:27:26Why were you trying to sell this horrible human being as nice and sweet?

00:27:30And again, I'm not trying to be critical or negative.

00:27:32I'm just trying to understand, because you've been listening to this show

00:27:36for 19 years, and you'd say something like that.

00:27:40Again, it's not a critical position.

00:27:41I'm just trying to understand.

00:27:44Well, from all the horrible criminals, I prostitute myself.

00:27:48He was the kindest.

00:27:50Let's keep it at that.

00:27:51That's an objective truth, and that doesn't make him less of a monster.

00:27:56Okay.

00:27:58So, help me understand how you came about thinking of, I will sell my body for money,

00:28:07for sex, at 16.

00:28:10Because everybody at school hated me.

00:28:13I lived in social isolation.

00:28:15Every time my parents even came near me, I couldn't even breathe.

00:28:20Literally, not figuratively.

00:28:21Literally, I could not breathe.

00:28:23I would hold my breath, hoping they would go away.

00:28:27So, I was just very, very alone.

00:28:30And the prospect of someone giving me love, how horrible that quote-unquote love was.

00:28:42I know it wasn't love.

00:28:43But, um, just the interest he gave me was, um, something I craved, I think.

00:28:50Okay.

00:28:51When did you start the kickboxing?

00:28:53I started that when I was 21, 22.

00:28:57Okay.

00:28:58So, I'm still trying to understand.

00:29:01And, again, I say this not from a critical standpoint.

00:29:04I'm just trying to really fathom, like, you couldn't join a club.

00:29:07You couldn't play Dungeons & Dragons.

00:29:09You couldn't learn how to play chess.

00:29:11You couldn't, like, there was nothing.

00:29:12Like, I'm trying to understand why you go to this, this place.

00:29:18Because, because I, um, I felt unloved.

00:29:22Well, okay, I understand that.

00:29:24Hang on.

00:29:24Sorry, I understand that.

00:29:25But, I mean, there's lots of people who feel unloved in the world.

00:29:30And this is not necessarily where they go.

00:29:34I mean, I'm trying to, it may be necessary, but not sufficient, if that makes sense.

00:29:41Yeah.

00:29:42I also don't really know.

00:29:44I also...

00:29:45Okay, good, good.

00:29:45So, if we don't know, that's good.

00:29:47That's good.

00:29:47Then we can stop pretending to know, right?

00:29:49Okay.

00:29:50So, now we have to try and understand, right?

00:29:54We should try and understand.

00:29:55Did you experience any sexual abuse as a child?

00:30:00No, I did not.

00:30:01No, absolutely not.

00:30:02Okay.

00:30:05So, did we, did you have early exposure to sexual imagery or pornography or anything like that?

00:30:11Um, I was exposed to the internet quite young.

00:30:14So, I guess, yes.

00:30:16Yeah.

00:30:16Okay.

00:30:17So, at what age did you start viewing or consuming pornography?

00:30:21Um, I think about 12 or 13, my first pornographic images.

00:30:27If you look at it in hindsight, there were just pictures, but that has a huge impact on you when

00:30:34you're that young.

00:30:35I was the first generation to go on the internet with my 65K modem.

00:30:40Um, it was, um, so yeah, I was exposed to it very young.

00:30:44Okay.

00:30:45And your parents didn't give you any cyberproofing or put any parental controls on or lock things down or anything

00:30:52like that, right?

00:30:53No.

00:30:54Okay.

00:30:55And what influence do you think that had on this?

00:30:59I don't know.

00:31:01I don't know what influence that had.

00:31:03Ah, you're dodging.

00:31:04Like, hang on, hang on, hang on.

00:31:08What was my question?

00:31:09What the influence of pornography had on me?

00:31:11No, I said, what do you think?

00:31:13Or what do you think?

00:31:15Not what do you know?

00:31:17Right?

00:31:17So, and again, I'm sorry to be an ag, but when people switch from what is your theory to saying

00:31:22I don't know the actual, all the facts, then that's a dodge, right?

00:31:27If I say, what do you, what influence do you think this might have had on you?

00:31:32And you said, well, I don't know for sure.

00:31:34That's not dealing with the question, if that makes sense.

00:31:38Okay.

00:31:39So, what do you think the relationship might have been?

00:31:44Because you had been consuming pornography for years.

00:31:47Yeah.

00:31:48And of course, pornography are paid, usually, hopefully.

00:31:50I mean, hopefully they're not in the industry at all, but they're paid for sexual activity.

00:31:56And you've been watching this for years.

00:31:59It made me curious.

00:32:01It made me extremely curious.

00:32:03It made me curious, and it was something I wanted to do.

00:32:06Okay.

00:32:08So, you wanted to have sex, which is, of course, common in your teenage years, right?

00:32:12I guess, yeah.

00:32:15And if you wanted to have sex, there's lots of ways to have sex without being a prostitute, or a

00:32:23child prostitute in this case, right?

00:32:25Yes.

00:32:26So, why do you think you would go in that direction?

00:32:30I think because I had a very bad relationship with my father, I think.

00:32:37Okay.

00:32:37I think my father never, my parents never hugged me.

00:32:41My parents never said they loved me.

00:32:43My parents never comforted me.

00:32:45My parents never, my parents were very harsh.

00:32:49And I think my father was also quite autistic.

00:32:53He could not express his emotions well.

00:32:56So, my parents were always angry at me, always mean at me, always never warm, or never soft, or never

00:33:04kind.

00:33:05So, the prospect of receiving kindness from another man, that was something I think subconsciously really craved.

00:33:14Okay.

00:33:15So, you were looking for male affection in part because your father was so distant?

00:33:20I think so.

00:33:22I think, yeah.

00:33:23I think so.

00:33:24It's hard to go back so long in time to really, because you do the things you do, you don't

00:33:30really, you're not conscious of them, of your actions.

00:33:34Because you're conscious, but it's hard to distill really what was the reason why I did it.

00:33:39But I do feel I had, that was a big hole in my heart.

00:33:44I know that from a very, from a very young age, I wish my dad would have hugged me.

00:33:50I wish my dad would be kind to me.

00:33:52And I also remember many conversations I had long before that with my dad, where I told him, like, I

00:33:59wish you would be kind to me.

00:34:00I'm always, I know when I went over to a friend's house and people were, my friends were having fun

00:34:07with their parents.

00:34:08They were cracking jokes with their parents.

00:34:10I would just be completely stupefied and be completely silenced because it was just so alien to me.

00:34:16And that was something, on a subconscious level, I craved extremely.

00:34:22Oh, and maybe that's why your first John was the older man.

00:34:26Maybe, yeah.

00:34:28Like 40, almost 40 years older, okay.

00:34:30That had some fond feelings for him, that probably, yeah.

00:34:35But, in a way, it's kind of incestuous, though, to say, I want affection from my dad, so I'm going

00:34:43to have sex with older men.

00:34:45That's to say that the kind of affection that you want from your father is sexual in nature, if that

00:34:51makes sense.

00:34:51So, that's what I'm trying to understand.

00:34:55I did not want a sexual relationship from my father.

00:34:58I did not want that.

00:34:59Well, but I'm not saying that you did, right?

00:35:02That's why I said it's kind of incestuous in nature, not in fact, right?

00:35:08Because if you want affection from older men, or you want, then, to mix sexuality into it is, it's interesting.

00:35:18It's not, I'm trying to think of the best way to put this.

00:35:22And also, it was kind of like beggars can't be choosers.

00:35:26It was the only way how.

00:35:27I didn't see another way.

00:35:31To get affection from older men?

00:35:33To get affection from anyone.

00:35:36And that's because dating was impossible because of the bullying or something else?

00:35:41Yeah, I think of the bullying and how I looked at the time.

00:35:46I had extremely bad teeth.

00:35:49I just, I, no, I think I was very, yeah, the bullying did a number on me.

00:35:55I was, I was being bullied because, well, I had very bad parental relationship.

00:36:00You could just smell that on me.

00:36:01You could just see it, see it when I just walked in the room.

00:36:05You could just see that on me.

00:36:08I just looked very sad as a kid.

00:36:10I was quite a mess.

00:36:12Okay.

00:36:12I saw some videos of me when I was a kid and it just looked sad.

00:36:17It just looked really, really sad.

00:36:19If I would see a kid like me, I would just have extreme pity for that, for that child.

00:36:23So, I didn't feel like I was worth anything.

00:36:27Or dating, that was, you need to have self-work before you start dating.

00:36:31And I did not have that.

00:36:33Not a bit at that time.

00:36:35I was just very socially awkward.

00:36:39Didn't talk to anyone.

00:36:41My only interaction with people was being bullied.

00:36:43That was my only interaction.

00:36:45I'm so sorry.

00:36:47Anything with your mom?

00:36:49My mom, I had a very bad relationship with my mother.

00:36:52My mother was not a nice person.

00:36:56She was very mean to me.

00:36:58She was extremely mean.

00:37:01Also, my mother was very narcissistic.

00:37:05I was very performative.

00:37:06So, my mother would kind of live vicariously through me.

00:37:11Also, I had to...

00:37:14She gave me clothes, etc.

00:37:16But not to make me look good.

00:37:17But to...

00:37:18So that people would think she's a good mother.

00:37:21So, every time I...

00:37:23Every morning I went to school, I first had to sit in her chair.

00:37:26And she would put makeup on me.

00:37:29So, other mothers would not think she's a bad mother because I would look good.

00:37:34This was the rationale behind that.

00:37:36I really didn't like that.

00:37:38Sorry, your mother put makeup on you?

00:37:40Every morning, yes.

00:37:42Jesus.

00:37:43I don't imagine that helped being bullied.

00:37:46No, that really didn't help.

00:37:48It's not fun when you're like nine and kids bully you because your mascara is running.

00:37:52What the fuck?

00:37:53This is insane.

00:37:55What the unholy hell is wrong with these people?

00:37:59I mean, that's not even like, gee, you know, my mom didn't really...

00:38:03My mom gave me a bad bowl cut with serrated scissors, right?

00:38:07So, I look really goofy for a couple of weeks in school.

00:38:09I mean, that's bad enough.

00:38:10This is mental.

00:38:11She put makeup on you?

00:38:13Yes, she was absolutely mental.

00:38:15My mother was absolutely mental.

00:38:17I had very, very bad memories of my mother.

00:38:21Quite horrible memories.

00:38:22Also, my mother's screaming at me, foaming at the mouth, telling me she hated me, that I ruined her life.

00:38:30And this is a 13, 14-year-old me where she's just completely berating me that I'm a horrible person.

00:38:38So, she was kind of psychotic, right?

00:38:40Yeah, she was absolutely mental.

00:38:43She was...

00:38:44Yeah, there was a lot wrong with my mother.

00:38:47Wow.

00:38:48Again, really sorry about this as a whole.

00:38:52That's just...

00:38:53That's monstrous.

00:38:53And your father, I assume, of course, was equally mental in terms of the distance, and you had mentioned something

00:38:59about autism?

00:39:01Yeah, I think so.

00:39:02But recently, like a couple of years ago, I had like lots of conversations with my father.

00:39:07I didn't see my father for a very long time.

00:39:09Only a couple of years ago, I reconnected.

00:39:12And I also tried to reconnect with him and just try to talk about the past.

00:39:18Just how I...

00:39:20Not what objectively happened, but just my feelings about that time.

00:39:24And I was just completely shut down.

00:39:27Like, he loved me.

00:39:28He was a great father.

00:39:29And anything that goes against his narrative is just me imagining things.

00:39:35Yeah, so he's still a liar and dissociated.

00:39:41Well, I don't dare to say that because I would just imagine him screaming, how dare you, if I would

00:39:48say that to him.

00:39:50But your words, not mine.

00:39:52But maybe.

00:39:54Okay.

00:39:55How did you...

00:39:56So tell me about the history of your relationship with your parents in a while.

00:40:01Um, where do you...

00:40:03On what time do you want to zoom in?

00:40:05I mean, from 16 onwards.

00:40:0716 onwards.

00:40:08From 16 onwards, my relationship with my parents was really, really bad.

00:40:12So they decided I should live with my sister.

00:40:16So from 16 on, I went to live with my sister for two years until I was 18.

00:40:21And then I started living on my own.

00:40:24Um, I had a little bit of connection with my parents then, like, um, Christmas and, um, birthdays, et cetera.

00:40:31But, um, I, I, um, from, I think about 21, 22, I broke contact, um, with them.

00:40:42And, um, I didn't reconnect with my father.

00:40:47I have still have not reconnected with my mother and I have no intention to.

00:40:50But I reconnected with my father, I think, five to six, five, five years ago, I think.

00:40:56And why did you...

00:40:57What were the circumstances of reconnecting?

00:41:01I think it was kind of, um, uh, I was just curious how he was.

00:41:06And, um, I was just, um, I miss him.

00:41:10So I just wanted to reconnect and, uh, we, we, we talked and, uh, it was very nice talking to

00:41:15him again.

00:41:16And, um, you know, I do love my father very much.

00:41:20Um, although...

00:41:20Oh my God, man.

00:41:22Oh my God.

00:41:23You're killing me.

00:41:25You're killing me.

00:41:27Ah.

00:41:30All right.

00:41:30So tell me, I'm happy to explore this.

00:41:32Tell me what you love about your father.

00:41:35Um, he's very, he's smart.

00:41:38He's very intelligent.

00:41:39Um, he did a lot of stuff for me.

00:41:42Um, although, like, he, he did not show me affection in a lot of ways, but, and, uh, in, in

00:41:50a lot of ways he did, like, in the ways that he could, he did, um, he did provide for

00:41:55me very well.

00:41:57Um, um, I live in a house now.

00:42:00My father, um, uh, I could live in a house because of my father.

00:42:04Um, so, yeah, my father did, has given me a lot.

00:42:10So, he is smart and he gives you some shelter?

00:42:17Yes.

00:42:19Um, those aren't riches.

00:42:20What else?

00:42:22Um, we, we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, um, like politics, et cetera, although I don't

00:42:31really care about politics anymore.

00:42:34Um, uh, all right.

00:42:36So, uh, what are his virtues?

00:42:40Um, he is straightforward.

00:42:43He is, uh, he speaks truth in, in a lot of ways.

00:42:47Um, he's not afraid to be, um, the all man out.

00:42:51He's not afraid to be, um, he's brave.

00:42:55I think he's brave.

00:42:55He's a brave man.

00:42:57Um, he's very hardworking.

00:42:59Um, he's quite conscientious.

00:43:01Um, yeah, he's, um, it's kind of like an old school Clint Eastwood kind of type of guy.

00:43:07He's, uh, he's, uh, tough in some sense.

00:43:11And, um.

00:43:12Tough?

00:43:13What the fuck are you talking about?

00:43:14He let his wife put makeup on you.

00:43:16Yeah.

00:43:17Help me understand.

00:43:18I feel like I'm in an opposite universe here.

00:43:21She screamed at you.

00:43:22Did she hit you?

00:43:23No, you said you only got hit twice, right?

00:43:25Yeah.

00:43:25So your mother screamed at you, terrified you, put you in makeup, sent you to school.

00:43:30You were bullied for years.

00:43:32What did your father do about you being bullied?

00:43:34If he's a tough guy, right?

00:43:35Um, he went to the school and tried to, yeah, on the school, tried to, uh, work it out with

00:43:42teachers, but, um, um, yeah, it didn't really help me in it.

00:43:47Like, uh, Hey, if they come to you, uh, I'm going to teach you how to box you, you beat

00:43:50him up or, uh, stuff like that.

00:43:52He didn't do.

00:43:53Oh, sorry.

00:43:54You have a big tough guy.

00:43:55Father went to teachers.

00:43:59Yeah.

00:44:00I also think he went to another, uh, he had to talk with another few parents, one or two

00:44:04parents, I think you think, yeah, and can't remember anymore.

00:44:09Okay.

00:44:10So did he help you with this?

00:44:15Not really.

00:44:16No.

00:44:16And it went on for years, right?

00:44:18It went on.

00:44:19It never stopped.

00:44:20It started when I was four or five and it never stopped.

00:44:23Okay.

00:44:23So 10, 12, 14 years, right?

00:44:27Yeah.

00:44:28Your father did not stop it.

00:44:30Did not do anything decisive to help.

00:44:34No.

00:44:35No, I guess not.

00:44:37Sorry.

00:44:37I don't, what do you mean you guess not?

00:44:38This is what you're telling me.

00:44:40I'm not trying to impose something on you.

00:44:41He didn't.

00:44:42So where, you can't even protect his son who's getting makeup put on him by his psycho

00:44:47wife.

00:44:49Help me understand what I'm missing here.

00:44:52You said he was so cold that you became a child male prostitute.

00:44:57You would, you begged him for affection.

00:44:59He gave you nothing.

00:45:00He marries a psycho woman who screams at you and puts makeup on you and you're trying to

00:45:04sell me a virtuous guy here.

00:45:07No.

00:45:08No, honestly, like, I feel like I would, I would assume based upon this call that you'd

00:45:14never listened to my show in the past.

00:45:16And listen, it's not like you have to agree with me on, on anything or everything, but

00:45:21it's kind of weird to not even reference.

00:45:25Oh, no, I didn't reference it.

00:45:26It's not, it's kind of weird to not even reference any of the arguments that I've made that you've

00:45:31been listening to apparently for 19 years.

00:45:34So, what is, what is my definition of virtue?

00:45:36No, sorry.

00:45:37What is my definition of love?

00:45:39Let's do that.

00:45:40A definition of love.

00:45:42I knew this one by heart.

00:45:44It's the, I know it in Dutch, it's the involuntary response in the appearance of another.

00:45:50To virtue.

00:45:51It's involuntary response to virtue if a virtuous, right?

00:45:55Yes.

00:45:55Okay, so, when you say that you love your father after you spent, what is it, 40 minutes

00:46:02complaining with great justice and bitterness about your absolutely horrible childhood, which

00:46:08is just terrible.

00:46:09I mean, honestly, you've had one of the worst childhoods I've heard of on this show, and

00:46:12I've been doing this a long time.

00:46:15Yeah.

00:46:16So, your father presided over a psycho wife.

00:46:19He himself was cold and distant, and so cold and distant, and unfeeling and unaffectionate

00:46:27that you ended up selling your body to fucking crypt keepers when you were in your mid-teens.

00:46:33Yes.

00:46:34And you're going to tell me that he's a virtuous guy, and you love him.

00:46:41Also, he wouldn't listen to you when you talked about your childhood, and also, when I pushed

00:46:46back a little bit against him, you said you could hear him screaming in your head.

00:46:50Yes.

00:46:51And this is also why, also, I'm not, like, fighting for my father.

00:46:56There's a reason why I broke with him.

00:46:58You just, no.

00:46:59Listen, all I can do, I can't read your mind, I can only go with what you tell me.

00:47:04Yes.

00:47:05And you tell me that you really love your father, and he's a virtuous guy.

00:47:10I don't know if he's virtuous.

00:47:12No.

00:47:12But I do.

00:47:13You said, you just said five minutes ago that he's virtuous.

00:47:16Don't gaslight me.

00:47:18I'm not, I'm not sure.

00:47:19You're gaslighting me.

00:47:20You're right.

00:47:21You're gaslighting me.

00:47:21Don't do that.

00:47:22Don't do that.

00:47:22So this is why you, this is why it's tough for people to get to know you, because you

00:47:25keep switching.

00:47:27And I'm not, you know, it's, because you've been a listener for a long time, I'm going

00:47:31to have higher standards for the conversation, right?

00:47:34That's fine.

00:47:36So, what the fuck?

00:47:37What's going on here?

00:47:40If you're going to say, my father, okay, was your father a child abuser or neglector?

00:47:47He wasn't at a, yeah, he was, I think.

00:47:51Okay.

00:47:52I mean, it is child abuse to send your child into an environment where he's being relentlessly

00:47:58and horrendously bullied for 10, 12, 14 years.

00:48:02That is abusive.

00:48:04It is abusive to let your wife put makeup on your boy and send him to school.

00:48:12So you're a tall, gangly kid with blush, lipstick, and mascara.

00:48:16It is abusive to let your wife scream at your child and call him horrible names and shred

00:48:23his confidence and self-esteem.

00:48:25Just tell me if I'm wrong about any of this, and I'm happy to debate.

00:48:29No, you're not wrong.

00:48:30You're not wrong.

00:48:31Okay.

00:48:31So, what is the second worst form of abuse?

00:48:36Here, I'll give you my quizzes here, right?

00:48:38The worst form of abuse is sexual abuse.

00:48:41What is the second worst form of abuse?

00:48:43Physical?

00:48:44No.

00:48:45Physical is the least bad.

00:48:46The worst is sexual abuse.

00:48:48The second worst is neglect.

00:48:50The third worst is emotional abuse.

00:48:52The least worst is physical abuse.

00:48:54Okay.

00:48:55So, your father, at least, listen, I'm not saying, again, I'm not saying you have to

00:49:00agree with my definitions.

00:49:03That's fine.

00:49:05But it's weird to not even reference them as if I've never said anything on the subject.

00:49:10Now, you may say, Steph, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you because I know that

00:49:13you have a different opinion or a different argument, but I am going to claim that I love

00:49:16my father.

00:49:17This will be surprising to you, and let me tell you why.

00:49:19No, you're just like, yeah, this guy was a horrible child abuser, and he was horribly

00:49:24neglectful.

00:49:25He drove me into the arms of predatory older men who paid me for gruesome sex, but I love

00:49:31him.

00:49:33So, are you, I mean, were you aware when you're talking about how great your father is, were

00:49:38you aware that I was going to have something to say about that quite strongly?

00:49:42I think you're, I didn't, I was not aware that the conversation would take this turn,

00:49:47but yeah, I'm aware that you would say that.

00:49:50Okay, don't, don't, don't, don't gaslight me.

00:49:53Don't gaslight me.

00:49:54It's not that this conversation took a turn.

00:49:57You said things that are the exact opposite of everything I hold moral.

00:50:03And again, you're perfectly free to say things that are the exact opposite of everything I hold

00:50:08moral.

00:50:08Well, I'm just asking, were you aware, having listened to me for almost 20 years, were you

00:50:15aware when you talked about the coldness and cruelty of your parents, that when you said

00:50:23that you loved my, you loved your father, that I would be surprised and shocked and have something

00:50:29to say about it?

00:50:30And that's all I'm asking, were you aware of that?

00:50:33Absolutely.

00:50:34So you were absolutely aware that I was going to rail against you claiming to love your

00:50:38father?

00:50:39Yes.

00:50:40How, how would I know that?

00:50:42You didn't say anything.

00:50:43You didn't say, oh, Steph, you know, this is going to come as a surprise to you and let

00:50:46me just sort of frame it or anything like that.

00:50:48You just said it blandly as if it was just normal and natural.

00:50:52Well, to, to give you a bit more of the story, I said all these things.

00:50:56I wrote letters to my father where I explained all these things.

00:50:59I broke with him because of these things.

00:51:02Um, I also made your arguments against my father and said, this is the reason why I'm

00:51:06breaking with you.

00:51:08Um, and also the love, love unquote, it started a few years ago.

00:51:15I, um, uh, no, but he hasn't changed.

00:51:18Hang on.

00:51:18He hasn't changed.

00:51:19He's still rejecting your entire experience as a child, right?

00:51:22Yes.

00:51:24So if you hated him before and he hasn't changed, how do you love him now?

00:51:28Again, I'm, I'm happy to hear the answer.

00:51:30I just don't follow it.

00:51:32I don't really have a good answer for you.

00:51:35Well, what's your, hang on.

00:51:36What's your bad answer?

00:51:38Christ.

00:51:39I have become a Christian and I think it's important to love your parents.

00:51:43And I can't deny that, you know, all the horrible things that have happened, they have

00:51:48happened and I felt them and I've mourned for it.

00:51:50And, but.

00:51:51Well, why wouldn't you tell me that you had become a Christian and give me that context for

00:51:57the discussion?

00:51:58I want to, but there's a lot of context, uh, to give.

00:52:02Well, no, no, but you don't give the details without the context, right?

00:52:06Otherwise it's just confusing, right?

00:52:08So if, if you say, well, the reason, like if you'd said to me, uh, Steph, the reason now

00:52:12that I love my father who formerly I hated and didn't have contact with is because I've

00:52:18become a Christian and I want to obey the honor of their mother and their father.

00:52:21Although that's a bit confusing, right?

00:52:23Because why would you honor your father, but not your mother?

00:52:26That's a good point.

00:52:27No, I'm just curious because it's confusing, right?

00:52:29If you say, well, I, I, it says honor their mother and their father.

00:52:34And I think the mother goes first.

00:52:36So it's a bit confusing if you say, well, it's because I'm a Christian and because you

00:52:42also told me that you don't have any contact with your mother.

00:52:45And I think you said, and I never will.

00:52:48That's correct.

00:52:48So why would you honor your father, but not your mother?

00:52:53If it's a Christian commandment, which includes both.

00:52:55And again, I'm sorry to be a nitpicker.

00:52:56I'm just trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to navigate this quite challenging conversation.

00:53:03Maybe, uh, the, the, the most honest answer I can give you is that I don't know why I love

00:53:08him, but I, I, the last few years I've grown to love him.

00:53:12Okay.

00:53:12All right.

00:53:13So you just have an emotion that has no cause.

00:53:16And, and I will also, you and I both know directly and incontrovertibly that you are

00:53:24only able to be in a relationship with your father if you bear false witness, which unfortunately

00:53:29contradicts another commandment, right?

00:53:31Because you have to lie about your childhood and your experiences and not tell him the truth

00:53:35about what you think and feel about your childhood.

00:53:39So you're only in a relationship with your father because the moment I expressed anything

00:53:44critical, you immediately said, Oh, I can hear my father screaming in my ear or something

00:53:48like that.

00:53:49Right.

00:53:50So you're only able to be in a relationship with your father because you lied to him because

00:53:58if you told the truth, he would scream and reject and attack you.

00:54:02Right.

00:54:03Well, he has also recently, not like two, three years ago.

00:54:07I also said it and, um, I also got a text word and, uh, denied and, uh, said that it's

00:54:13not true, that he loved me very much.

00:54:15He did everything for me that he could.

00:54:18Um, I, I, I know that's not true.

00:54:20Does he know that you were a child prostitute?

00:54:22Yeah.

00:54:23He knows that.

00:54:23Yeah.

00:54:24So he knows that.

00:54:25And he's, so what is his answer as to how you became a child prostitute if he was a

00:54:30perfect father?

00:54:32I don't think he, uh, likes to think about that too much.

00:54:35I don't think he has an answer for that.

00:54:36Well, nobody likes to think about it, but you told me he's a brave guy.

00:54:40So he can't be frightened of little things or even big things like that.

00:54:45If he's a brave guy, if he's a brave guy, then he'll step up in a manly fashion and talk

00:54:51about things that are difficult, right?

00:54:54Well, you're right.

00:54:55And actually, you're right.

00:54:56I shouldn't say that he's brave because, because he's brave in some things, but he's,

00:55:00he's not a brave man as a, as a virtue.

00:55:03No.

00:55:03Okay.

00:55:04And what things is he brave?

00:55:06Um, confronting people, um, not confronting me or the past or, uh, but confronting other

00:55:12people.

00:55:13He can be, um, direct, I should say more.

00:55:16He is very direct, but that's not a virtue.

00:55:21Are you still there?

00:55:23Yes.

00:55:23Sorry.

00:55:24Could you give me an example of something that he is, um, brave about or has confronted

00:55:30someone about that you know of?

00:55:32Actually, I can't, Stefan.

00:55:34No, I know.

00:55:36You, you ask me, what do you, what are the virtues of your father?

00:55:39And I, I say some stuff that, um, that rings true to my ear, but if you ask me to

00:55:45really

00:55:45examine it, I can't really give you tangible examples of virtues.

00:55:49I, no, I, I can't, but yeah, you're right.

00:55:54Okay.

00:55:55All right.

00:55:56Got it.

00:55:57Uh, okay.

00:55:59So how is it that I can best help you in the time that we have left?

00:56:03I don't really know.

00:56:05What was it, do you think that most prompted you to want to have the call?

00:56:09Because it sounds like we just have very different definitions of many things, which

00:56:13is not, not good or bad.

00:56:15It just means that we have, uh, different definitions of love and loyalty and Christianity

00:56:22and, and so on.

00:56:24Uh, I don't believe that Christianity says that you should be, um, relentlessly affectionate

00:56:30towards people who are unrepentant sinners.

00:56:32Is your father a Christian?

00:56:34No, he's not.

00:56:35Okay.

00:56:35And he has not, as far as I understand it, he has not, he has not accepted a fault for

00:56:43the wrongs that he did.

00:56:44No, he has not.

00:56:46No.

00:56:46So he is an unrepentant sinner who's not a Christian.

00:56:49Is that right?

00:56:50Yes, that's right.

00:56:52And does, I mean, according to what you understand about Christianity, and of course, I'm not any

00:56:58kind of fundamental expert on Christianity, is that you're understanding that Christ or

00:57:04Jesus commands you to love unrepentant sinners the same as you would somebody who has repented

00:57:12and accepted Jesus?

00:57:14I don't, I don't think so, no.

00:57:16Okay.

00:57:18So if, uh, unrepentant sinners, uh, your mother, I assume, is also an unrepentant sinner.

00:57:25Is that right?

00:57:26Very much.

00:57:27Yes, she has not changed in the most fundamental ways, no.

00:57:29So why is your father acceptable and worthy of love?

00:57:35And your mother is, it sounds like, sort of very negative, you have a very negative relationship

00:57:40with your father, with your mother, and you don't, um, you don't have any contact with

00:57:45her.

00:57:46So what is the difference?

00:57:48I assume, sorry, I assume that they're not still together, right?

00:57:52No, they're not together.

00:57:53No, they got a divorce when I was about 15, 16.

00:57:55And you, and do you know why they divorced?

00:57:59Um, I was glad when they divorced.

00:58:01Uh, I don't know why they didn't divorce.

00:58:02Let's put it that way.

00:58:04Um, they never loved each other.

00:58:05That happened if they were able to hang on for 15 or 20 years, or do you know anything

00:58:09specific that happened prior to the divorce?

00:58:11Um, I, I think it was just, um, that, uh, uh, uh, a drip that overflowed the bucket.

00:58:19Um, it was, um, I don't, don't, I don't know what, what exactly caused it, but, uh, I think

00:58:25it was just, um, it was never happy.

00:58:27It was never good.

00:58:28And, and I think my dad just could not take it anymore.

00:58:32Okay.

00:58:32Got it.

00:58:33Okay.

00:58:34So you had, um, if you don't have anything particular to, to work on, um, I can, uh,

00:58:40mention something to you that might be helpful based upon what you called in with.

00:58:45Okay.

00:58:46So you called in feeling isolated.

00:58:49Is that right?

00:58:50Yes.

00:58:51Yes.

00:58:51I mean, I can tell you why you're isolated if you want to know.

00:58:54Okay.

00:58:56Because you are consorting with an evildoer and you are claiming to love an evildoer.

00:59:02And if a good and healthy and virtuous person comes around and, uh, you tell that person

00:59:10the truth about your childhood and your father, and then you say, but I love my father and I

00:59:15enjoy spending time with him and I'm glad he's in my life.

00:59:18What will the good and virtuous person think and feel about that?

00:59:24Confused, I guess.

00:59:25No, not really.

00:59:26No, not really confused.

00:59:27It's just, it's just a rank contradiction, right?

00:59:30Yes.

00:59:30So they will say, you love the person who has done the most harm to you of anyone in

00:59:38the world.

00:59:39Maybe, you know, lumping him in with your mother because they're a system, right?

00:59:44There's no one good parent and one bad parent, right?

00:59:47So they would say, okay, so you love the person who's done the most harm to you and has never

00:59:54even admitted fault or repented or made restitution or anything like that, right?

01:00:00Yes.

01:00:01And can I maybe add something?

01:00:03Yeah.

01:00:03Um, I, I, I, I, I broke with my father since I, I, like, um, I don't really love you

01:00:09and

01:00:10that time, but I broke with him.

01:00:12I was ever more alone.

01:00:14Um, I, I spent every Christmas alone.

01:00:17I didn't have much friends.

01:00:18I didn't have any family.

01:00:19I completely broke with all my family and that, that, that broke me so much.

01:00:25And I was, um, when, when I, after so many years of, um, uh, breaking with my father, um,

01:00:31I had another encounter with him and, uh, a talk with him and that was, that was fun.

01:00:37That was, um, cause that, that was okay.

01:00:40And, um, I guess I'm just happy to have at least some family again to, to not have to spend

01:00:46Christmas alone again to, to have some, some support system behind me again.

01:00:52Um, and, um, okay.

01:00:54And sorry, how long, from what age to what age were you not talking to your father?

01:01:00From 20, 22 to about 30 for about eight years.

01:01:06I didn't speak to him.

01:01:07Okay.

01:01:07And what efforts did you make to find better people over that time period?

01:01:13Um, I, well, work, um, sports, um, friends.

01:01:22Um, but the, yeah, the more I, um, yeah, I kind of lost a lot of friends because I didn't

01:01:28see eye to eye with a lot of people.

01:01:30And, um, so quite when I kind of, my dad came back in my life, I was quite happy that

01:01:36I at least had someone again.

01:01:38Okay.

01:01:38But you do understand that if you have an unrepentant child abuser in your life, it's

01:01:43going to keep good people at a distance.

01:01:46Do you really think that the only way I can have good people in my life is if I break

01:01:50with

01:01:50my father?

01:01:51Well, no, that's not what I said.

01:01:54What did you say then?

01:01:55If you have unrepentant child abusers in your life, it's going to keep good people away.

01:02:02Right?

01:02:03Do, do good people want to be in an environment with someone who says, I love the man who abused

01:02:09me as a child, even though he's never admitted any fault and attacks me if I talk about it

01:02:13now.

01:02:14I mean, that's just straight up Stockholm syndrome, right?

01:02:17She put it like that?

01:02:18Oh, no, I don't think so.

01:02:20Right.

01:02:20And listen, I mean, people will have sympathy, of course, right?

01:02:23I mean, I have sympathy for sure.

01:02:25But it's morally just too contradictory.

01:02:29Yeah.

01:02:30And I live with that conviction for eight years, but it only made me more unhappy and more alone

01:02:36and more...

01:02:37Because also, you don't want to be friends with someone who has nothing, who has no support

01:02:41system, who has no friends, who has no family, who has nothing.

01:02:45Well, so then we have the problem of what you said with regards to selling your body when

01:02:52you were 16, that you felt that you were worth nothing, right?

01:02:56Yeah.

01:02:57I felt I was unlovable.

01:03:00And that comes from your father and your mother.

01:03:03Yeah.

01:03:04And yeah, exactly.

01:03:07Yeah.

01:03:07Now, why do you think you have no emotion when talking about these things?

01:03:16Do you mean I have no emotion?

01:03:18Do you want...

01:03:19I've cried many years for this.

01:03:22My tears are all cried up.

01:03:25Well, yeah.

01:03:26I mean, tears aren't the only emotion, right?

01:03:29Well, I'm not unemotionally sitting here.

01:03:34There's a lot of emotions going through me.

01:03:37Okay.

01:03:38Yeah.

01:03:38Well, listen, if the choice is between bad company and no company, I can understand why

01:03:44you would choose bad company, right?

01:03:46Yeah.

01:03:47And if you had said to me, listen, I tried my very best to get friends for eight years

01:03:53and to date and to get a boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that, I'm just, for some

01:03:59reason, I'm completely unable to form any kind of bonds with anyone.

01:04:06And I'm sort of left with my child abuser as the only person who might be in my corner.

01:04:11Hey, listen, I mean, I can sympathize with that.

01:04:13And I can certainly understand where you would be coming from.

01:04:16Does that make sense?

01:04:17Yeah, that makes sense.

01:04:19But what you said to me was, I love my father.

01:04:22Yeah, because that's easier to say than what you just said.

01:04:25But what you just said is the truth.

01:04:26Well, no, it's not easier.

01:04:27It's just not honest.

01:04:29No, it's not honest.

01:04:31So this is why it's tough for you to have, I think, like sort of the highest quality people

01:04:37in your life is because you say things that just don't make much sense.

01:04:42And then people, like, I'll puzzle it out with you because it's kind of my job, right?

01:04:46So I'll sit here and say, well, hang on a second.

01:04:48Why would you describe a 50-plus-year-old man who preyed upon a vulnerable, broken and bullied

01:04:54child and paid him for sex?

01:04:56Like, why would you say he was sweet and nice?

01:04:58Like, that's just contradictory, right?

01:05:00Does that make sense?

01:05:01Yes.

01:05:02And then you say, well, my father was vicious to me and cold and let his wife scream at me

01:05:11and call me horrible names and put me down and then put makeup on me and didn't deal

01:05:16with, you know, 10, 12, 14 years of bullying and so on and didn't protect me from online

01:05:24internet pornography and hypersexuality and so on, right?

01:05:27Just an appalling parent.

01:05:29I'm a father myself.

01:05:30This is fucking wretched parenting.

01:05:32This is just horrible, horrible, horrible parenting.

01:05:36Your childhood was almost pure torment, isolation, loneliness, and self-horror from beginning

01:05:41to end.

01:05:42Yeah.

01:05:43And it hurts me a lot if I say this to my father that he just denies it.

01:05:47He says, no, you were loved and I did everything I could.

01:05:51Which puts more of a burden on you, right?

01:05:54Because then the only reason you're unhappy is because there's something wrong with you,

01:05:57right?

01:05:58Yeah.

01:05:58Right.

01:05:59That feels terrible.

01:06:01Right.

01:06:01Yeah.

01:06:02So he's still sacrificing you for his own emotional comfort, right?

01:06:07Yeah.

01:06:08And also, yeah, my father remarried and also I told that story and also the wife of my

01:06:15father heard that.

01:06:15Sorry, you told which story?

01:06:16Hang on, hang on.

01:06:17Which story?

01:06:19That I prostituted myself and that was very unloved.

01:06:21That I was very bullied, et cetera.

01:06:25Somewhat the story I told you.

01:06:27And she was, her first reaction was, oh my God, you grew up completely unloved and then

01:06:33you must have looked for love in all the wrong places.

01:06:36And that turned into, I think you're misremembering it.

01:06:39Sorry, what?

01:06:40She turned in?

01:06:41She then said, lady, you're misremembering it?

01:06:43Yeah.

01:06:44Oh, after she talked to your dad.

01:06:46Yeah.

01:06:46She says, I believe you're misremembering stuff.

01:06:49Okay.

01:06:49So she sided with your dad and said that you were lying about things.

01:06:53Yes.

01:06:54Okay.

01:06:55All right.

01:06:56And do you love her too?

01:06:58I want to.

01:07:00Okay.

01:07:01So you love the man who did the abuse and you have a tough time loving the woman who

01:07:07didn't do the abuse, but thinks you're misremembering.

01:07:10Yes.

01:07:10Okay.

01:07:12All right.

01:07:13Is there anything else that I can help you with?

01:07:15I don't, I don't know.

01:07:17I mean, I'm trying to understand what it is that you want to get out of the call and I'm

01:07:22making a case for things and obviously it's a free will situation.

01:07:26It sounds like you don't particularly accept what it is that I'm saying, which is totally

01:07:30fine.

01:07:31Of course you can.

01:07:32Can you say what I'm not accepting?

01:07:35Well, it was a lot of fighting in a sense or conflict to get you to admit that the guy

01:07:41who prayed on you when you were 16 was not kind, not nice.

01:07:46We've had a fair amount of back and forth on the nature of love and whether your father

01:07:53is worthy of love.

01:07:54And so I think we're just coming at it, you're taking a biblical commandment and applying it

01:08:02to your father, not your mother, of course, but to your father.

01:08:06And I'm not a biblical commandment guy.

01:08:08Like, as you know, I'm a moral philosopher from first principles.

01:08:11So if you are taking a biblical commandment as the root of your behavior, then I think

01:08:19it would make more sense to talk to a priest than a moral philosopher because we're just

01:08:23coming at things from very different perspectives, right?

01:08:27If the perspective is, well, the commandment is to honor thy mother and thy father, and so

01:08:31you have to love your father no matter what, then you know that's not at all where I'm

01:08:36coming from, right?

01:08:38You're right.

01:08:39If you say it the way, it does expose a huge flaw in my thinking.

01:08:45No, no, no.

01:08:46I'm not saying it's a flaw.

01:08:47I'm not saying it's a flaw.

01:08:49I'm just saying that if you have a moral commandment from God that has you believe that's why you

01:08:57have to love your father, but not your mother, then you have…

01:09:01Sorry, go ahead.

01:09:03What I mean is that I don't follow a commandment of God.

01:09:06It's something I like to say because it makes things easier for me.

01:09:10It makes things nice and cushy, but that's not what I'm doing here.

01:09:14I don't know what you mean.

01:09:15Sorry, you are or aren't telling the truth about that?

01:09:19I'd like that to be the truth, but it's probably not true.

01:09:23You know my head is spinning, right?

01:09:25Sorry, yeah.

01:09:26I don't know which way is up anymore.

01:09:27I really don't.

01:09:30Like, I said, love is our involuntary response to virtue.

01:09:33I think we showed that your father is not virtuous, although you tried to give me a bunch

01:09:36of his virtues, and then you backed off some of them, and then you said it was the biblical

01:09:40commandment, and now you're saying it's not the biblical commandment, but it's something

01:09:47you say.

01:09:48So, I can't really have conversations with just stuff that you say that isn't true.

01:09:52Does that make sense?

01:09:54That makes sense, yes.

01:09:57So, I'm not sure what to do with the conversation if, when you say things to me, they sound like

01:10:03the truth, or they sound like that's what you believe to be the truth, and then if you

01:10:07say, well, no, no, that's not really the truth.

01:10:09That's just something I like to say that's a little tricky, if that makes sense.

01:10:13Yeah, that's tricky.

01:10:15That's true.

01:10:18You're making me nervous.

01:10:21I'm not trying to be mean, honestly.

01:10:23I'm really not.

01:10:24I mean, it's fine.

01:10:25It's an interesting conversation.

01:10:27It's just that this is probably why it's tough for people to be in your life, because

01:10:33the stories are just all over the place, and they kind of contradict themselves, and then,

01:10:39and listen, I completely sympathize with this.

01:10:42You have the response of someone who's going to get the shit kicked out of him if he gives

01:10:49the wrong answer.

01:10:50And again, I say this with deep sympathy for your childhood and so on, right?

01:10:56Because when I, and this sort of comes out when I sort of criticized your dad, and you

01:11:00said I can hear him screaming in my head or whatever it is, right?

01:11:02So people who are under threat tend to lie.

01:11:07I did as a kid, and you did as a kid, because telling the truth is way too dangerous.

01:11:14Does that make sense?

01:11:15Yeah, and that's something I have really, I've struggled with.

01:11:19Yeah, like you couldn't say to your mom, get this fucking makeup off me, you crazy bitch,

01:11:23right?

01:11:24No.

01:11:25Or some gentler form of that, like, I don't want to have makeup in the morning, because

01:11:29what would have happened if you'd have said to your mom, don't put makeup on me, it's

01:11:35wrong.

01:11:35It's not helping my social status, to put it mildly, right?

01:11:39Yeah.

01:11:40So, and if you'd gone to your father and said, if your mom, like, insisted, I mean,

01:11:44what would your mom say if you said, I don't want to wear makeup?

01:11:48I think she didn't really care what I wanted.

01:11:51I think she only cared about...

01:11:52No, but what would she say?

01:11:54I think she would just make up for a reason.

01:11:55I think I also said it a couple of times, but did she just, I had no, I had no,

01:12:00I had

01:12:01no say in the matter, really.

01:12:04Right, okay.

01:12:05Got it.

01:12:05So, your mother would just do what you wanted, and if you were to insist, what would happen?

01:12:12Like, mom, put away the makeup, I'm not wearing makeup, stop it, like, I'm not doing

01:12:17it, like, what would happen?

01:12:19She got, she would get angry, and then get verbally abusive with me, tell me she hate

01:12:25me, scream at me.

01:12:28Okay.

01:12:28Like, not things you want, as a kid, that's completely socially isolated.

01:12:32Oh, it's terrifying, yeah, it's terrifying.

01:12:34So, you would rather get makeup put on you than have your mother say she hates you, because

01:12:38if your mother says she hates you, your chances of survival, from an evolutionary standpoint,

01:12:42go way down, right?

01:12:44Yeah, I think that's it.

01:12:45Okay.

01:12:46I'm just trying to say a lot.

01:12:46And what if you were to go to your father, if you were to go to your father and say,

01:12:52can you talk to mom, like, the makeup thing is weird, I'm not a girl, like, you need

01:12:56to talk to mom, and you need to get this stuff sorted out, because this is just bizarre.

01:13:02What would your father say?

01:13:03Yeah.

01:13:04I can't really, I don't really know, but it wouldn't be positive.

01:13:07I think it would be dismissive.

01:13:09I think it would, oh, she just does it for this.

01:13:11Oh, she, it would be a dismissive answer.

01:13:14It would be dismiss me and just downplay the problem.

01:13:18So, you wouldn't get help?

01:13:20No, I would not get help.

01:13:22Right.

01:13:23So, you couldn't tell the truth.

01:13:25And when you tried to tell the truth, like you said to your father, I am, I'm really missing

01:13:34having affection for you, and let's do things together.

01:13:36You would just be ignored, right?

01:13:39Yeah, and I also, the email and the letters I sent him, like, this is the reason why I'm

01:13:43breaking with you.

01:13:45He also said, like, I didn't understand anything from it.

01:13:48It was just very weird.

01:13:49And I also believe that he believed that.

01:13:52Right.

01:13:52Because he also showed those letters to his neighbor at the time that lived next to us.

01:13:57He's like, this is so weird that he does that.

01:13:59I have no clue why he's doing this.

01:14:01And so, that is, yeah, he really believes that.

01:14:06He's really, that makes it very difficult.

01:14:08Because I really believe that he truly believes that, that he was a great father, and he did

01:14:13everything he could.

01:14:14I really believe that he believes that.

01:14:16Well, who knows?

01:14:17I mean, we can't read his mind, so there's no way to know what he does or doesn't believe.

01:14:22We just know that everything he does believe is convenient to his narrative.

01:14:28Everything he does believe is the easiest and most comfortable and most pleasant thing

01:14:32for him to believe.

01:14:34That is true.

01:14:35Yes.

01:14:35So, I don't think he really believes it, because it's just all too convenient for him, right?

01:14:42Maybe.

01:14:43Well, no, it is.

01:14:44Sorry, I thought you just agreed that it was convenient to him.

01:14:46Yeah, or maybe it is so delusional in that sense, maybe.

01:14:50No, no, because delusions could go either way.

01:14:53Delusions could be like, oh, I was the worst father in human history, right?

01:14:56That could be a delusion.

01:14:57He's probably not the worst father in human history.

01:14:59But if the delusions always go one way that perfectly serves the ego, right?

01:15:05Yep.

01:15:05Then it's not accidental.

01:15:09It's not random.

01:15:10That is true.

01:15:11That is true.

01:15:13So, yeah.

01:15:14So, the way that you respond in conversation is with the perception that you are under dire

01:15:20threat for giving the wrong answer, which is why you say things that are convenient and

01:15:26things that sound good or things that you wish were true.

01:15:29But you can't be direct and honest because you grew up under such threat.

01:15:35I think that, yeah, I think that's exactly true.

01:15:39And Neil's hammer on dead.

01:15:40Right.

01:15:41And so, because, again, and I say this with great sympathy, but because, based upon prior

01:15:47assaults, aggressions, neglect, and trauma, because of that, you have to not think about

01:15:54what is true and honest and direct.

01:15:57In fact, you have to speak under condition of threat that if you say the wrong thing, if

01:16:03you get something wrong, you're going to die.

01:16:05Because that's, I think, how it was when you were growing up or that the perception was

01:16:10parental abandonment is the fear of death, right?

01:16:13Yeah, especially as a child, yeah, it felt like that.

01:16:16Right, right.

01:16:16So, I would say that one of the reasons it's tough for you to connect with people is because

01:16:23everything has to go through a filter of, will I get attacked and destroyed for being honest?

01:16:31I think that's true.

01:16:33Yeah.

01:16:33I do, I do, I have, I did lie a lot about silly things.

01:16:38Well, hang on, see, I hear what you're saying.

01:16:42And, of course, technically you're right, but lying generally is a moral judgment based

01:16:49upon a voluntary situation, if that makes sense.

01:16:53How do you mean that?

01:16:54Well, so, if a guy says to a woman, hey, I want to be your boyfriend, and we're going

01:16:59to have a wonderful life together, and maybe we can get married and have children, when

01:17:03all he does want to do is sleep with her, that would be lying, right?

01:17:08Yeah, absolutely.

01:17:09And no one's forcing him to do that.

01:17:11True.

01:17:14If a man has his children kidnapped and then is forced to defraud someone, like maybe he's

01:17:22the manager of a bank, right, and some robber kidnaps his children and says, you need to

01:17:27get this amount of money transferred, and the man calls up the bank and pretends that

01:17:32he needs his money transferred and so on, right, and gives the passcode and tries to

01:17:37make some jokes and appear normal, because he's terrified his children are going to be

01:17:40harmed, right?

01:17:42Is he lying?

01:17:44Not really, technically, but no.

01:17:46Well, he wouldn't.

01:17:47I mean, if he was choosing to defraud someone, he would go to jail.

01:17:50In that situation, I don't think he would.

01:17:53No, I don't think so.

01:17:54So when you say that you're lying without taking into the context that you were under

01:17:59dire threat of abuse, abandonment, neglect, destruction, then I would be hesitant to say

01:18:07that you were just lying.

01:18:09Yeah.

01:18:10Although it doesn't feel like that.

01:18:14Sorry, it feels like you just were lying, like for no particular cause.

01:18:19Yeah, because that's kind of what I hear, and I can get, yeah, the attack on me is that

01:18:26I always lied as a kid.

01:18:28Well, I would not say that you lie.

01:18:31I say that you grew up under a situation of a death threat.

01:18:36Somewhat, yeah.

01:18:38Well, I mean, what do you mean by somewhat?

01:18:41Well, yeah.

01:18:42I mean, I get that your parents weren't, they weren't hanging you over a bridge, I fully

01:18:46understand that.

01:18:47Yeah.

01:18:48But if your mother says, I hate you, and your father doesn't intervene, then that's really

01:18:55disastrous.

01:18:56Yeah, absolutely.

01:18:58Yeah.

01:19:00Yeah.

01:19:01So, I think the problem is, of course, when you're around your father, you are reactivating

01:19:06that threat, because you have to lie with your father.

01:19:13Yes, I have to, yeah, I have to lie with him, that is true.

01:19:16I can't explain, also, after all these years, I do still feel the need to tell him and to

01:19:23talk about how it was in the past.

01:19:25And that's also something I did, like, even after our relationship was, quote unquote, kind

01:19:30of going well, I still try to put it on stake, to have a talk about it, like, and really

01:19:36dive into the past, like, what happened here?

01:19:39Why were you this way?

01:19:41And, yeah, the answers were very disappointing, not even disappointing, but really, well, like

01:19:49you said, like, convenient for him.

01:19:50I lie.

01:19:51He just did the best he could.

01:19:52And, yeah, I was just a terrible child.

01:19:56That's kind of the stretch of it.

01:19:58Right.

01:19:59Right.

01:20:00So, I mean, that's the price of being around your father, is that it is going to continue

01:20:04to reactivate this terror of telling the truth.

01:20:08And if you have a terror of telling the truth, then it's going to be hard for honest people

01:20:15to be in your life.

01:20:17Yeah, I think so.

01:20:19I think that is true.

01:20:21And so, listen, obviously, you can make your own choices.

01:20:24My job, of course, is not to make any decisions for you, which I would never want to do, but

01:20:29it's simply to say the costs and benefits of that, of the decisions that you're making.

01:20:35Yeah, although it feels like I don't have that decision anymore, because the prospect

01:20:41of, like, finding other people, like, in your 30s, that kind of drops dramatically.

01:20:45It's hard to have people who can really integrate into your life at this stage in my life.

01:20:50So, I feel like maybe it's pragmatism, where I just kind of grab what I can't grab.

01:20:57Because it feels like, if I say to my father, like, hey, I really want to talk about the

01:21:02past.

01:21:02And if we can't talk about it, like, we're not going to talk.

01:21:05I feel that I'm putting myself up for absolute, I feel like death.

01:21:12That's another death sentence.

01:21:14Sure.

01:21:15Sure.

01:21:16Right.

01:21:17No, I understand that.

01:21:20And if you're going to make the decision to stay in contact with your father, obviously,

01:21:24that's your decision.

01:21:25And I can understand that eight years of not being in contact with others is very tough.

01:21:30And I'm not going to try and just, hey, that's no big thing.

01:21:33That is a big thing.

01:21:33And I really sympathize with that as well.

01:21:37But just, you can do whatever you want, as long as you're conscious about it.

01:21:41That my sort of general argument is, it's really important to be conscious about it.

01:21:44So, if you choose to stay in touch with your father, the price of that is going to be that

01:21:48you're going to have to misrepresent things to him.

01:21:50And you're going to have to not, obviously, not tell the truth and not ask for any kind

01:21:55of apology or restitution or anything like that.

01:21:59Yeah.

01:22:00Yeah.

01:22:00And that does bother me a lot.

01:22:02It does bother me.

01:22:03Because every full moon, I still think about it.

01:22:06I still feel terrible about it.

01:22:08I still feel, and I always say to myself that I'm just being selfish.

01:22:13It's just, why would I want acknowledgement for something that happened so long ago?

01:22:20That's also what my father says.

01:22:22Because I'm grown up now.

01:22:23I'm all grown up.

01:22:24I have a good job.

01:22:26I'm my own man now.

01:22:29Why would I need that?

01:22:31But there's still like a child inside of me that still really, really wants that.

01:22:35It's still having an effect.

01:22:37What about...

01:22:38Yeah, it still has an effect.

01:22:39Sorry, go ahead.

01:22:40Well, it still has an effect.

01:22:41Absolutely.

01:22:42What were you saying?

01:22:43How old is your father?

01:22:4662, 63?

01:22:48Okay, got it.

01:22:50Got it.

01:22:50Okay.

01:22:51Yeah, I mean, is his health good?

01:22:54His health is good.

01:22:55Yeah, his health is fine.

01:22:56Okay, good.

01:22:57Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, one of the problems with being closer to your parent than having a partner

01:23:02is because your father is going to die many, many decades before you do.

01:23:09Probably.

01:23:10And so, it's a short-term gain, long-term pain, if that makes sense.

01:23:16Yeah, absolutely.

01:23:18That's true.

01:23:19But also, I don't know if it will be mutually exclusive, like if I choose to remain in contact

01:23:26with my father, but maybe, yeah.

01:23:30I don't know if I can really change that relationship, if I can really change my mind where I can

01:23:35just

01:23:36say, okay, like, this happened, it really hurts me, I'm kind of betraying myself or betraying my inner child

01:23:43or however you want to call it, that I'm still having contact with him.

01:23:48I'm not really being truthful.

01:23:49I'm kind of, you said it better, I can't really find your words.

01:23:57How, yeah, is that really going to exclude me from having a partner?

01:24:04And, I don't know.

01:24:05Well, I mean, no, see, you can just be honest, right?

01:24:07So, if you say to me, I am full of love for my abusive father who's never repented and screams

01:24:12at me

01:24:12or yells at me or insults me if I try to bring up the past or won't talk about it

01:24:17or whatever, right?

01:24:17Okay. So, if you say, look, I mean, my father has his problems, we have some good times together,

01:24:23I just have to ignore the past and the problem is that I spent eight years alone and it's better

01:24:28to

01:24:28have someone than nothing. Listen, that's honest, right? The problem isn't the choices that you're

01:24:33making in particularly, that's not the major problem. The major problem is that there's a lot

01:24:38of gaslighting and misrepresentation about it. Like, I love my father and blah, blah, blah,

01:24:43and this guy who statutorily raped me for money when I was 16 is a nice, kind guy. It's not

01:24:49the choices, it's the falsehood or gaslighting about the choices that is going to keep people

01:24:55at bay, if that makes sense.

01:24:59Yeah. Yeah, but it's very hard to be honest because honesty has always equated both death

01:25:05or dire consequences, at least.

01:25:09Right, right, right. Okay, is there anything else that I could help you with?

01:25:16I don't know. I do want to thank you a lot.

01:25:20Oh, my pleasure. And I'm sorry if I was a little bit harsh, but I hope it was helpful.

01:25:26It was very helpful. It does put a lot of things into perspective and I have a lot of thinking

01:25:31to do.

01:25:32Okay, good. Well, I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going and I certainly do wish

01:25:36you the very best going forward. And once again, I'm incredibly sorry about what happened to you

01:25:40as a child. That should happen to no one and I'm just heartbroken about the way that it went down

01:25:45and I obviously commend you on having a pretty good life at the moment despite this just awful start.

01:25:53Well, thank you. And just to reiterate, you helped me tremendously, Stefan, and thank you very much.

01:26:00You're very welcome. Take care, man. Bye-bye.

01:26:03Thanks.

01:26:03You

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