- hace 20 horas
En este episodio de Zona Infinito (emitido originalmente alrededor del año 2000), el Lic. Juan Acevedo, psicólogo e investigador, aborda las abducciones desde una perspectiva clínica y antropológica, alejándose de los clichés de la ciencia ficción para centrarse en la experiencia humana.
A continuación, los puntos clave de su análisis:
El concepto de abducción
- Más que un secuestro: Acevedo define la abducción no necesariamente como un rapto físico por entidades no humanas, sino como el relato de una experiencia anómala vivida por una persona.
- Conexión chamánica: Encuentra un paralelismo directo entre las abducciones modernas y las iniciaciones chamánicas de pueblos ancestrales. Ambas comparten la secuencia de: rapto, examen, deliberación, teofanía (experiencia de lo sagrado), regreso y consecuencias.
Perfil del abducido y su relato
- Casos "vírgenes": Se refiere así a personas en zonas alejadas que no han sido influenciadas por la cultura popular (series como X-Files). Curiosamente, estos testigos no suelen usar la palabra "extraterrestre" ni "nave".
- Descripción de los seres: Los describen como "nenes pequeños", "cabezones" o "bebés", a menudo con ternura. También mencionan a un ser más alto al que llaman "el doctor", "la señora" o "el viejo".
- Consecuencias psicológicas: Muchos presentan estrés postraumático y un profundo temor a ser juzgados como enfermos mentales.
Hallazgos de la investigación en Argentina
Acevedo y el Dr. Néstor Berlanda estudiaron cerca de 30 casos en profundidad, llegando a conclusiones sorprendentes:
- Sanaciones: En algunos casos, tras el supuesto "examen médico" en la nave, las personas reportaron el alivio de dolencias físicas crónicas.
- Reestructuración de conciencia: Tras la experiencia, los sujetos suelen mostrar mayor conciencia ecológica, una visión del mundo más bondadosa y, en ocasiones, la experiencia se vuelve recursiva (se repite a lo largo del tiempo).
Casos emblemáticos: Menciona como hitos en Argentina el caso de Dionisio Llanca (Bahía Blanca, años 70) y el de Julio Platner (Winifreda, 1983), destacando la coherencia del testimonio de este último a través de las décadas.
La hipótesis de los Estados de Conciencia
El Licenciado propone que estas experiencias ocurren en estados alternativos de conciencia (similares al sueño o al éxtasis místico). Menciona que el uso de sustancias como la ayahuasca en el Amazonas produce visiones con elementos muy similares a los reportados en la ufología, lo que sugiere una raíz común en la psique humana o en la interacción con otras realidades.
A continuación, los puntos clave de su análisis:
El concepto de abducción
- Más que un secuestro: Acevedo define la abducción no necesariamente como un rapto físico por entidades no humanas, sino como el relato de una experiencia anómala vivida por una persona.
- Conexión chamánica: Encuentra un paralelismo directo entre las abducciones modernas y las iniciaciones chamánicas de pueblos ancestrales. Ambas comparten la secuencia de: rapto, examen, deliberación, teofanía (experiencia de lo sagrado), regreso y consecuencias.
Perfil del abducido y su relato
- Casos "vírgenes": Se refiere así a personas en zonas alejadas que no han sido influenciadas por la cultura popular (series como X-Files). Curiosamente, estos testigos no suelen usar la palabra "extraterrestre" ni "nave".
- Descripción de los seres: Los describen como "nenes pequeños", "cabezones" o "bebés", a menudo con ternura. También mencionan a un ser más alto al que llaman "el doctor", "la señora" o "el viejo".
- Consecuencias psicológicas: Muchos presentan estrés postraumático y un profundo temor a ser juzgados como enfermos mentales.
Hallazgos de la investigación en Argentina
Acevedo y el Dr. Néstor Berlanda estudiaron cerca de 30 casos en profundidad, llegando a conclusiones sorprendentes:
- Sanaciones: En algunos casos, tras el supuesto "examen médico" en la nave, las personas reportaron el alivio de dolencias físicas crónicas.
- Reestructuración de conciencia: Tras la experiencia, los sujetos suelen mostrar mayor conciencia ecológica, una visión del mundo más bondadosa y, en ocasiones, la experiencia se vuelve recursiva (se repite a lo largo del tiempo).
Casos emblemáticos: Menciona como hitos en Argentina el caso de Dionisio Llanca (Bahía Blanca, años 70) y el de Julio Platner (Winifreda, 1983), destacando la coherencia del testimonio de este último a través de las décadas.
La hipótesis de los Estados de Conciencia
El Licenciado propone que estas experiencias ocurren en estados alternativos de conciencia (similares al sueño o al éxtasis místico). Menciona que el uso de sustancias como la ayahuasca en el Amazonas produce visiones con elementos muy similares a los reportados en la ufología, lo que sugiere una raíz común en la psique humana o en la interacción con otras realidades.
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TVTranscripción
00:01He and Juan Acevedo, thank you for joining us.
00:05Profession, psychologist.
00:08What does that mean?
00:10That's a great question.
00:13On the one hand, it means a job,
00:18On the other hand, it means what is socially known as a profession,
00:22But I believe that, intimately, it's about a person's situation, their things, and their life.
00:32What does this mean? Is everything in real time?
00:37Is everything in real time?
00:40Is there talk of conscience?
00:42We talk about conscience.
00:43Is the unconscious being discussed?
00:46What is the basis for modifying the unconscious?
00:49The unconscious is modified by consciousness, it is modified throughout history,
00:54Stimuli, sensations, and feelings are modified both individually and collectively.
00:59And if something very serious happens to me, where is all that recorded?
01:03I believe it is recorded throughout the entire system.
01:06If the blow is really very strong.
01:08What are abductions?
01:10That's a good question.
01:12Many people usually answer this question by saying that abductions are kidnappings.
01:17of people or abduction of people by non-human entities.
01:22They usually respond to this by saying that it is a fallacy.
01:25Lie?
01:26No, not a lie, a fallacy.
01:28It's a mistake.
01:28Is a fallacy an error?
01:30Because?
01:31For the following reason, because we call the accounts of people abductions
01:35who claim to have lived through a particular, anomalous circumstance, where this circumstance of abduction is present.
01:44This is very similar to something that a person, a ufologist, a UFOlogist, Dr. Josen Allen Hynek,
01:52He said that we don't study UFOs, that ufology doesn't study UFOs.
01:56What do we study?
01:56And accounts from people who claim to have seen UFOs.
02:00And this is a fundamental issue.
02:01And the testimonies?
02:02That's the point.
02:05Notice that these testimonies, this issue of testimony, this testimonial aspect,
02:11It is very much mediated through the word, both oral and written.
02:15And that's the number one material we have as our work.
02:18Especially in the case of abductions.
02:21In the case of UFOs we also have this circumstance of filming and photographs.
02:27And doesn't one sometimes go hand in hand with the other?
02:29The topic of abduction is closely related to the topic of UFOs.
02:34But, interestingly, it is also related to other topics that ufology does not usually address or touch upon.
02:41For example?
02:42Consciousness, alternative states of consciousness, something we call the Yamana connection.
02:49So what?
02:50Extremely interesting.
02:51This sequence of abduction and ordeal.
02:54The fact that?
02:55Of abduction and ordeal.
02:57This issue of a person being taken against their will from a place and experiencing an event of certain characteristics
03:05highly particular
03:10that border on the supernatural, that border on the fantastic.
03:16They are divided into seven very specific elements.
03:19The abduction, properly speaking.
03:23After this abduction comes what is known as the exam.
03:28After this examination there is something known as deliberation.
03:32After deliberation comes the most complex part of these experiences, which is theophany.
03:38Is it a theophany?
03:40Theophany.
03:41Theophany.
03:42The experience of the sacred, of the divine.
03:44Then comes the return and the most important part for us, which are the consequences.
03:49And notice one very particular thing.
03:52This sequence is not a new sequence; it is a very, very old sequence.
03:56It is the same sequence that we find in anthropology or anthropological psychology,
04:03with what we know as shamanic initiations, initiations in traditional aboriginal peoples.
04:10Where is the boundary between lies and truth?
04:12Interesting. I think the border is the fable.
04:15And how?
04:16There are people who can create stories about things that are half real and half constructed.
04:25In Chile, someone told me about an experience they had, before it alluded to you,
04:33and that at dawn a woman with long hair, dressed in a platinum suit,
04:41He comes, invites him for a ride in a ship, and then drops him off at dawn.
04:46Lie or truth? I don't know.
04:49That's a very interesting point. At one point, we can attest to the truth insofar as the person recounts it.
04:56We cannot lie because these people experience effects after this happens.
05:02And this is a crucial issue.
05:04Both Dr. Néstor Berlanda and I, who have studied this topic for the last 10 years,
05:09We came to the conclusion that the phenomenon is real.
05:11What happened in Argentina? What's happening in Argentina? Are there any examples in Argentina?
05:14Yes, there are examples. There are some very interesting examples.
05:17I think the most interesting ones are those from the 80s and early 90s.
05:23And I'll tell you why.
05:24Because in the mid-90s we started to have a large amount of invasion in terms of what was
05:29series,
05:32The X-Files, Independence Day, peculiar things.
05:36They wanted this issue of alien abduction to quickly become a cultural issue.
05:43But before this time, in the late 1980s, especially in Argentina and in rather poorer areas
05:50far from the largest urban centers,
05:52We call them virgin cases.
05:54Because they hadn't been touched, they hadn't been studied by other researchers, especially UFO researchers.
05:59And they have some very interesting situations.
06:01Notice that these people, for example, in the cases we have studied, which we have studied 30 cases.
06:0730 cases?
06:08Yes. And many people might think this.
06:10You might say, "30 cases?" Well, that's not many cases.
06:12The interesting thing is that we conceived the idea that there would be few cases, but followed over time.
06:19Let's not overwhelm ourselves with cases.
06:21And what happened to the minds of those people who claim to have had such an experience?
06:25In other words, one of the most common elements we usually find is something known as post-stress
06:31-trauma.
06:32We truly understand that these people have gone through something that is unfamiliar to them, not easy, not
06:37easy.
06:38And they describe it this way, with great fear.
06:40Great fear of being taken for crazy.
06:42Great fear of being mistaken for being sick.
06:44Clear.
06:45A great fear of not believing.
06:48Neither they themselves, and this is fundamental, nor do they usually believe exactly what happened to them.
06:53They define them, you were saying this about the virgin cases that we talk about, people don't even refer to
06:58extraterrestrials does not generally refer to spaceships.
07:03And what does that refer to?
07:04And, you see, they say, first of all they say, it was like a dream.
07:08And here's something very particular.
07:10Are you a dream manager?
07:12He says, only this dream was more real than reality.
07:18Well, you may have studied Freud and all that, so why can't it be a dream?
07:24Yes, absolutely. The interesting thing is, what happens when a dream is recurring in more than two people?
07:30And this recurring dream occurs not only blocks away, but thousands of kilometers away.
07:38Well, I'm going to ask you something scientifically.
07:40What is a healthy man and what is a sick man?
07:44A healthy man is a man who can, in quotes, manage his life.
07:53And I think we all harbor a level of illness deep inside.
07:58Today I heard several things in the office, and we were just talking about one issue, which is what was happening with this...
08:04life that we all lead every day.
08:05It forces them to be sick a little.
08:08This issue of that element of illness is somewhat insurmountable.
08:12At some point while working in a neuropsychiatric hospital here in Buenos Aires,
08:17Someone told me, look, it's very easy, it's very easy, you're a kite.
08:20The guy who's healthy pulls, recovers, and picks up.
08:27Low.
08:28The guy who is sick threw the kite and can't come back.
08:32And he can't come back.
08:33This is what we mean when we talk about mental health, right?
08:35When people generally talk about insanity, as if it were a bad thing to say.
08:37You know there's a problem when we talk about alternative states of consciousness, right?
08:41It's one thing.
08:41And we don't use the term altered states of consciousness, for example.
08:46And what are altered states?
08:47I believe that when we talk about consciousness, we are not only referring to the waking state.
08:52Every day we have many people who, when we've given them a talk, say,
08:56So what do you mean? Are we crazy?
08:57We're crazy for what happened to us, right?
08:59That we are upset, that we are sick.
09:02And I always respond with something very particular.
09:04Every day, at some point in our lives, and especially in a large part of our lives,
09:08For almost half of our lives, we live in an alternate state of consciousness.
09:12One, yes?
09:13What is sleep?
09:14Just one.
09:15But there's more, much more, the ecstatic state, for example, right?
09:19Ecstasy, mystical ecstasy, religious ecstasy, yes?
09:22The experiences of wholeness.
09:24Whole?
09:25Yes, yes.
09:26Totality, what a good question.
09:28It is when a person suddenly feels deeply that they are part of everything.
09:33But when I say being part of everything, I don't just mean being part of this issue of belonging to a species,
09:38a human matter, something is to belong to everything, is to belong to everything.
09:42And what is it?
09:44Both the plant and mineral kingdoms, feeling like God.
09:48That's a good question.
09:50Perhaps many people associate it with that.
09:52Did you see how I was telling you about the theophany part today?
10:08And if they can't tell it, they don't want to tell it because maybe they say,
10:10Oh, you're going to believe me!
10:11Exact.
10:11And here's the story.
10:12Besides, don't you know?
10:13When one arrives and these people can turn this around,
10:17And they know they will be listened to openly,
10:19It's a release.
10:19It's a relief.
10:20And one experiences this with great intensity.
10:23With great force.
10:24To be able to share this without anyone judging.
10:27Sure, sure.
10:28Yeah?
10:28Without someone saying, well, later we'll see how we evaluate this speech of yours.
10:34And I believe that one of the fundamental issues in these people
10:37It's because of this, storing it for so long, right?
10:41It would generate two very particular things.
10:43One might think that keeping it would blur the situation.
10:46However, wonderfully, it's quite the opposite.
10:49Yeah?
10:49The memory of these circumstances...
10:50Maybe it will feed it back in and fill it up...
10:53You know that this...
10:54There was a folklorist in the United States, Thomas Bullard,
11:00And that's something I'd like to mention because we also mentioned it in the book.
11:04And I don't know if it's clear in the book.
11:06Well, this person works exclusively with folk tales, right?
11:11And he treats abduction stories as folklore.
11:14Logically, a story so often repeated, so recurrent,
11:18had to be fed, constantly fed back,
11:21and it would reach variations to such a point that it could be very lush, right?
11:26One after the other.
11:28However, what's interesting is that they are not leafy.
11:31He is Juan Acevedo.
11:33We'll be right back.
11:45I am reading, for some, fabulists.
11:49For some, nightmares.
11:53Feeling of being watched.
11:55What's that?
11:56Well, do you know that when these people have these situations?
12:00First, there is a situation of great...
12:02of a feeling of being terribly helpless.
12:05This happens suddenly, without supervision.
12:07Does this happen as a group or does it happen individually?
12:10So there is only one case in which we recorded a group issue.
12:14However, there is no awareness of the group issue.
12:16Or I would tell him about Chile, about the case of Cabo Valdés, you were the patrol.
12:20Yes, yes.
12:21We may have cases in which there is a part of the experience.
12:25And there are some extremely interesting things.
12:27Look, we have a case where a woman suffers an experience of this kind.
12:33Her husband remembers getting up in the night because there was a very bright light.
12:38He gets up, looks at this light in the courtyard, recognizes that this is not normal, but says, well, he'll leave now
12:46to go.
12:46And he goes back to bed.
12:49Only with time, when we talk about it again, does this person say, no, but it's not normal.
12:54Otherwise, it's not like it's from the early morning, how will he be out during the days?
12:57Very, very particular things happen in this.
13:00And sometimes these witnesses who accompany are not the ones who generally live the experience.
13:07It's an experience, I would say they are solitary experiences.
13:09It's a one-on-one experience.
13:11One at a time.
13:12At least in the cases we've had.
13:15Well, in Capilla del Monte, near Uritorco, when we went to do some research,
13:23There are people who go in groups and say they have group experiences, of lights, of abduction.
13:29It's complex.
13:30You know I was very lucky, for almost nine years, we were able to do a job in Capilla del Monte.
13:37For those who have no idea, Capilla del Monte is located in the province of Córdoba,
13:41in the geographic center of the Argentine Republic.
13:44And we were able to experience firsthand what is done for us at that time,
13:47which is creation, the genesis of a modern myth.
13:52I believe that based on what happened at that trail, in '85, '86...
13:56The skirt.
13:57Not on the city's slope, but on the little bird's slope, the only little bird.
14:01We were able to attend and be on site every summer.
14:04But the trace remains.
14:05Yes, yes, yes.
14:06And it was very interesting to attend these groups.
14:08I operated as a sort of mountain man, usually accompanying them at night.
14:14Was this the spiritual guide?
14:15No, no, no, guide, just guide, leading us along the way.
14:20I remember that time with great fondness.
14:22And it was very interesting to see how people were constantly giving each other feedback,
14:28with all situations.
14:29And it's true, once you climb the first 500 meters, the horizon perspectives become very confusing.
14:35And people can no longer define what a satellite is, what a car that comes by is
14:39a path between the mountains.
14:41Is this not the place?
14:41What is a firefly, a blunt firefly.
14:43The place is difficult.
14:44You know, I remember something with great amusement, one night I was lying down looking at the sky.
14:49And I remember a group of people arriving, they asked me, well, what have you seen?
14:53Did you see anything strange?
14:54I say, yes, I have really seen strange things.
14:56Yesterday I saw a two-headed viper.
14:59No, no, he tells me, but something strange.
15:01Starry nights.
15:03How beautiful!
15:03They are very kissable.
15:04I mean, the stars are twinkling here.
15:06No, no, he tells me, but something really strange.
15:10I mean, yes, I saw you guys every group night.
15:12He cannot touch the stars.
15:14What was the first case in the Republic of Argentina?
15:17Look, I think one could talk about cases...
15:20Are there any celebrities?
15:21Yes, yes, I think one case that had a lot of impact was the Dionisio Yanka case, in the 70s.
15:25Who?
15:26Dionisio Yanka.
15:27Where did it go?
15:27That was in Bahía Blanca.
15:29It was a case where, unfortunately, at that time we didn't have the way of thinking that we have today.
15:35nor the instruments to try to see.
15:38And well, it was a case that I think was lost precisely for that reason.
15:41And another very famous case was that of Julio Plattner, right?
15:45What happens in '83, in Winifred de la Pampa.
15:48I say this because these are cases that had repercussions.
15:52Wonderfully Julio Plattner, a wonderful person, right?
15:56That systematically and in an incredible way, his testimony remains exactly the same from '83 to the present day.
16:03Yeah?
16:04Yes, yes, yes, yes.
16:05Is he a fabulist?
16:06No, not at all.
16:08And what does it say?
16:08Julio says...
16:09I would tell you what these people generally say.
16:11So, what's it like?
16:12These people count so much whether they're traveling in a vehicle or in their rooms, right?
16:19At a very particular moment, a very bright light.
16:22And the presence of...
16:24And this is very interesting, how do these people describe it?
16:26Kids, little ones, right?
16:29In other words, they never mention extraterrestrials.
16:32Little people.
16:33Small ones, right?
16:34Big-headed, they're sometimes called babies, right?
16:38They usually take them out of this place with great tenderness.
16:41We have had no record of violent or traumatic cases,
16:45as they exist in other parts of the world, especially in the United States or Spain.
16:49And suddenly they find themselves in different situations.
16:53They may well pass almost magically through a door or a wall,
16:57or they find themselves enveloped in a light that leads them to a place, to a vaulted place.
17:02Vaulted?
17:03Yes, vaulted, illuminated, where they are usually examined.
17:09A medical examination, what they describe as a medical examination.
17:12The interesting thing is, and here there is something very noticeable, very noticeable.
17:16In some of the cases we worked on, after these exams,
17:20People find relief from specific, chronic physical ailments they had up to that point.
17:26Then there is usually an extra character who is a little taller, whom they call the doctor.
17:32The gentleman, the lady, the old man.
17:35But do they have sex?
17:36This is...
17:37There is no sex.
17:39No, there is no sex.
17:40You know that unlike this issue of gray areas,
17:43No?
17:43This issue, you see, clearly refers to the gray areas.
17:45No, no, here we're talking about small beings that have this actual morphology,
17:50But people don't say it.
17:51This is a modern version, this gray matter.
17:53And in the case of this taller being, yes, there is a real issue.
17:59They can identify him as male or female, while they cannot identify the little ones.
18:03Some people often talk...
18:04They are like angels.
18:05No, well, however, look at this interesting thing, there are people who tend to relate it.
18:09They say that her eyes, her eyes, those eyes.
18:12The eyes.
18:13The eyes.
18:13They are eyes that everyone sees, everyone passes through.
18:16Everyone knows it.
18:17Notice to what extent the experience borders on and touches, yes, the question with the mystical, yes.
18:25Sometimes even with religion.
18:27I wondered what would happen next.
18:30And these people, beyond the fear of confessing it, of sharing it...
18:35The aftermath is fascinating.
18:37I think it's one of the most concrete elements we have.
18:40Let's see.
18:40These people not only do not show signs of specific mental disorders,
18:47These are the people we have investigated.
18:50I'm not saying there aren't any, in fact there are.
18:53But incredibly, we do a kind of restructuring in their consciousness.
18:58What is it?
18:59They see the world in a different way.
19:01They are better, they are worse.
19:03They are better.
19:04If we can talk about kindness.
19:05Yeah.
19:05Yeah.
19:06We would say they are better.
19:08They have needs they didn't have before.
19:10Yeah.
19:10A strong ecological awareness.
19:12Do they return to the places where those things happened?
19:14Yes, they're coming back.
19:15Are they coming back?
19:15Yes, they're coming back.
19:16To see if they can find them again.
19:18Yes, they're coming back.
19:19Furthermore, I could even tell you that in more than one of the cases this phenomenon is recursive.
19:26It usually happens again.
19:28Is it happening again?
19:28With the same character?
19:30Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
19:33That's a very interesting point to work on, especially for psychologists and psychiatrists, isn't it?
19:38How does our mind work?
19:39How much of this is created by our minds?
19:41Are there geographical areas in Argentina where cases occur more frequently than in others?
19:44No, no, no, no, I don't think so.
19:46In fact, we could talk about geographies in very specific statistics.
19:48It is more logical that there are more cases in a densely populated area than in unpopulated areas.
19:52No, but always, at least the confessions, the stories are given in the mountainous area, right?
19:59No, no, no, south.
20:00No, on this particular topic I think it's quite common that in some cases they can
20:09be anywhere in the country.
20:10I mean, did someone leave and never come back?
20:12As far as I know, right?
20:14That's a good alibi, isn't it?
20:16Look, sometimes people ask us a question, what is this?
20:19They ask us, don't they?
20:21And I always say that it's the most honest answer I have.
20:24Let's see.
20:25The only one that has arrived so far is, I don't know.
20:27I don't know.
20:28Would you like that to happen to you?
20:31What an interesting question, of course, we would like to know.
20:34Would you like that? What for?
20:36To learn a little more.
20:38I don't even know, look what I'm telling you, I don't even know
20:41if we could arrive at an answer.
20:43Sometimes I fantasize about an idea.
20:45I think it's been almost 40 years of life, I think another 40 may pass.
20:50And I fear we're not going to get to the answer.
20:53And yet, I think we're going to keep trying to find her.
20:57And what is your greatest curiosity?
20:59How does this relate to two aspects?
21:02How does this relate to issues, as you mentioned, of this Yamaní question?
21:07There are some very interesting cases, you see, with anthropological studies,
21:11in the Amazon basin,
21:12in villages that work with very particular plants and substances
21:16that alter consciousness.
21:17In a very particular case, a particular substance called ayahuasca.
21:21The ayahuasca people, whose culture is over 5,000 years old,
21:25where these elements also appear.
21:29I think that would be the perfect ending for us.
21:32both for Nestor Berlana and for me,
21:34power in the coming year, or so far this year,
21:38to be able to get closer, especially to a very particular place,
21:40which are the banks of the Cayali River,
21:42and to register precisely these types of cases.
21:46All the best to you, Sevedo. Thank you very much.
21:47Thank you.
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