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Two and a half weeks ago, the US and Israel launched a strike against Iran, which then triggered retaliatory attacks across the region and raised fears of a wider war. Now rumours online are circulating claiming Benjamin Netanyahu has been killed or seriously injured. Even if they're unfounded, it still raises the question: Would removing a single leader change the course of the war on Iran, or even Gaza? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Professor Dr Syed Farid Alatas, Professor of Sociology at the National University of Singapore and Visiting Professor at Universiti Malaya.
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00:10Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:19the day.
00:19Two and a half weeks ago, the US and Israel launched a strike against Iran
00:24which then triggered retaliatory attacks across the region and raised fears of a wider war.
00:31So tonight on the show, we will explore what this escalation reflects about US imperialism in West Asia
00:39and how the Iranian diaspora and regional actors are responding.
00:44Joining me on the show to help me do this is Professor Dr. Saeed Fahri Al-Attas
00:48who is a Professor of Sociology at the National University of Singapore
00:51and he's also a visiting professor at University of Malaya.
00:54He has written extensively on imperialism and decolonial thought.
00:59It's good to have you on the show, Professor.
01:02Let's talk a little bit about this.
01:03Two and a half weeks ago, we had the launch of the strikes on Iran from the US and Israel.
01:09How would you characterize what we're witnessing in Iran today or in the region today?
01:15Because I've heard descriptions from everything from, oh, it's the start of World War III,
01:20there's fears about nuclear war, it's the beginning of another US forever war.
01:26What are your thoughts? How are you describing what's happening there today?
01:30Well, we're into the third week of the war.
01:34I think all these fears are legitimate, but we should note that the Europeans have been quite restrained in terms
01:43of coming into the war.
01:45I think they have all rejected getting involved.
01:49We know that the Europeans have not heeded the call of President Trump to go to the Straits of Hormuz
01:57and opening it up.
02:00And the same thing can be said of the Gulf Arab states as well as Egypt, Jordan and so on,
02:06Iraq.
02:10Although they were subject to retaliatory strikes from Iran, they've all opted to remain out of the war.
02:19So it seems that for now, it is not going to become a regional war or World War III.
02:27But you mentioned nuclear, the threat of nuclear war.
02:31I think this is a concern among some observers that the situation now doesn't look very good for Israel.
02:39I think the Israelis have been shocked by Iran's ability to respond in a very effective manner.
02:47And the fear is that Israel would use a limited nuclear option if they feel there's no other way out.
02:59So I think this is a fear expressed by some observers.
03:03Okay. So that's the current situation today, but I think it's worth zooming out and looking at the historical context
03:11of it.
03:11So how does the current war on Iran fit into the longer historical trajectory of US imperialism in West Asia,
03:22in the region?
03:24I think it has to do not just with US imperialism, but with Western imperialism in general.
03:30I think a lot of the problems happening in the region in West Asia today have to do first and
03:36foremost with British imperialism.
03:38And this goes back to 100 years ago, the British promised the Arabs their own states.
03:46If the Arabs aided the British in fighting the Ottomans, this is around World War, World War I.
03:53At the same time, the British promised European Zionists that they could have their own state in Palestine.
04:02And they were also behind the backs of the Arabs. The British were talking to the French about how to
04:10carve up West Asia into their respective spheres of influence.
04:14So there was that great betrayal. And when plans for establishing Israel actually matured, the Arabs felt that they were
04:28betrayed.
04:29So you already have the machinations of imperialism. After World War II, the US comes on the scene and becomes
04:41the dominant hegemonic imperialist power.
04:46So I think the creation of Israel is a central problem in the region today.
04:52But as far as Iran is concerned, there is also the issue of British and US imperialism directed against Iran.
05:02This is the reason why Iranians have great suspicion towards the Americans and the British.
05:08In the mid-50s, the democratically elected government of Iran, headed by Prime Minister Mossadegh, was ousted by the CIA
05:24together with the British because the Iranians decided to nationalize their oil.
05:31In the 1979 revolution, and the CIA installed the Shah of Iran, the father of the present prince, Pahlavi prince,
05:44who is in exile in America.
05:48The 1979 revolution was a response to that, was the overthrow of the Shah, who was seen to be a
05:56puppet of the US, who presided over a very authoritarian regime with political prisoners and torture and so on and
06:05so forth.
06:06So the 1979 revolution was an anti-monarchist and anti-imperialist revolution.
06:13Ever since then, the US and the West in general cannot tolerate, did not and continues not to tolerate the
06:23anti-imperialist stance of the Iranian states.
06:28I think that's really important that we have that historical context to understand Iran's position and where this is coming
06:37from.
06:37But what do you think the motivations are behind this war?
06:42Well, you know, in politics, including international politics, there's always the distinction between the latent and the manifest.
06:49So the manifest is, Iran is on the brink of developing nuclear weapons, and they are an irrational, bloody regime,
07:00and we cannot allow them to have nuclear weapons.
07:04And apparently, Iran has been one week or two weeks or a month away from developing a nuclear weapon for
07:10the last 20 or 30 years.
07:11Yeah.
07:13So it's a very long one week or very long two weeks.
07:17The real reason, I think, is what I stated before.
07:20Iran is the only anti-imperialist force in the region.
07:26It is the only country that takes a decided anti-imperialist position.
07:34And the problem, I think, is generally twofold as far as the West is concerned, especially the US.
07:41One is that Iran controls vast oil resources, which the West does not have access to.
07:51That is one.
07:52But I think the greater problem is that Iran is the main obstacle to the expansion of Israel.
07:59Israel.
08:00Now, the whole idea of Eretz Israel or greater Israel.
08:05Israel does have ambitions to expand beyond historic Palestine to encompass Jordan and parts of Iraq and even parts of
08:19Saudi Arabia, the Sinai.
08:21And the Arab states have not proven, not shown themselves to be antagonistic or taking a firm position against that.
08:38Maybe rhetorically they do, but it is only Iran that has actually taken action, physical action, military action against that.
08:48And so that's the main obstacle.
08:50That is why I think Israel is bent on, the issue is not nuclear weapons.
08:56Israel is bent on destabilizing Iran, on even perhaps balkanizing Iran, fragmenting it into different mini states, so that it
09:06becomes a failed state.
09:06And that benefits them and their objectives of expanding territory.
09:13I had wanted to ask you if you saw a direct connection between what's happening in Gaza today with the
09:21escalation in Iran.
09:25Well, the connection is that what's happening in Gaza is part of the expansion of Israel.
09:38In the past, prior to October 7, 2023, Gaza was, you could say, a semi-colony of Israel.
09:49It was not directly colonized, it was not settled.
09:53But now, after the war, after the war on Gaza, after the genocide, we see the possibility of Gaza actually
10:00becoming a settled colony.
10:03If the so-called Board of Peace has its way and develops Gaza or part of Gaza,
10:09most likely Gaza will become a place for Israelis and foreigners with subordinate status for the Gazans themselves.
10:22So it's part of the expansion of, you have a metamorphosis or a change in the nature of colonization of
10:30Gaza.
10:31Thank you for pointing out that when we were talking about the motivations around the U.S. and Israel attacks,
10:39the motivations of the U.S. seem to be quite clear, the latent and the manifest.
10:44Talking about the motivations of Israel, how successful do you think they have been in destabilizing Iran?
10:56They had, up to now, not been successful.
11:02I think they had not realized that Iran had been able, all these decades, since the U.S. invasion of
11:13Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein,
11:15Iran took the view that we are vulnerable. Iran is vulnerable to invasion.
11:22For that reason, they built up their military capacities. They built up their technology.
11:26They probably developed close relations with the Russians and the Chinese in terms of these developments.
11:34And I think this had happened without the U.S. and the Israelis realizing.
11:40Hence, they are being shocked by the Iranian retaliation.
11:48So, I think now the Israelis have woken up and they realize that they have to work much harder to
11:57destabilize Iran.
11:59But it doesn't seem to be working.
12:02You know, Tel Aviv has been bombed and, you know, there's a great deal of, apparently, because we don't actually
12:13get the footage,
12:14but there's a great deal of damage to Israel and some other cities, to military facilities and other facilities.
12:24So, I think it is extremely difficult for Israel to have its way as far as this war is concerned.
12:30I wanted to discuss with you, Professor, about the Iranian diaspora, which is probably one of the most diverse and
12:37largest,
12:39largest and most politically diverse diasporas in the world.
12:42When you follow social media and you listen to what's being highlighted in mainstream media,
12:48it seems that there are quite loud voices within the diaspora that appear supportive of the U.S. attacks on
12:55the Iranian state.
12:56How would you describe all these different political strands of the Iranian diaspora?
13:02See, the mainstream Western media tends to give more attention to that part of the Iranian diaspora in the West,
13:10especially in the United States, which supports the war because they think that this war will liberate Iran
13:19from what they regard as an oppressive and brutal regime.
13:25This is actually, to my mind, a small percentage of the Iranian diaspora,
13:32but we don't hear that in the mainstream Western media.
13:36Many Iranians, I would say most Iranians, are more rational about the situation.
13:41There are many Iranians, both in Iran as well as outside of Iran, who are against the government, the ruling
13:49government,
13:50but at the same time are staunchly against foreign intervention, staunchly against the war,
13:57against U.S. manipulation of Iranian politics, of Iranian affairs, and so on.
14:05So, their view is that we are united against foreign intervention, and we Iranians should deal with our government in
14:16our own way,
14:17by ourselves, without intervention from the United States or any foreign power.
14:22So, two things can be true at once. You can oppose foreign intervention, at the same time not agree with
14:30the actions of the Iranian state.
14:32Yes, you may not agree with your own government, but it is your affair, it is the affair of Iranians
14:37to deal with their government.
14:39How would you advise many people who are exposed to the amplified voices of maybe what is a smaller majority,
14:48a smaller portion of the Iranian diaspora that supports the war?
14:53I think people should look for alternative media. This is really the problem. You don't get perspectives, you don't get
15:04the variety of perspectives by, you know, by restricting yourself to the mainstream media,
15:11you know, to the BBC, to CNN, and so on and so forth. But alternative media is all over the
15:18place, if you search for it.
15:19And there you will get the variety of perspectives.
15:23How do you view the role of Reza Pahlavi in this? Because he is being propped up by many in
15:30the diaspora as the, quote-unquote,
15:33saviour, or they would like to see him be returned to Iran.
15:41You know, he is very, in many ways, very much unlike his father.
15:47His father, although he had many faults and he was extremely authoritarian, dictatorial, but he was also staunchly anti-Israel.
16:00He was very critical of the control of, by Israel, of banking system and international media and so on.
16:10He is on record making these points.
16:14On the other hand, the son has courted the Israelis, has courted relations with Netanyahu.
16:24And I think this has been a very negative point.
16:27It had been put off many Iranians, both in Iran as well as in the diaspora.
16:34And to give you an example, when Israel or the US attacked the school very early on in the war,
16:40killing almost 200 young girls, students and teachers, there was no apology.
16:51There was no expression of grief.
16:54There was no condemnation of Israel or condemnation of the US from the side of Pahlavi and those who supported
17:04him.
17:05And that's very telling about where their loyalties lie.
17:09You mentioned Netanyahu. It reminds me of the recent widespread rumours online that Benjamin Netanyahu had been killed.
17:17There was all the rumours going, is he still alive? Is he dead? Is he seriously injured?
17:22We don't know. Maybe some of these claims appear unfounded.
17:26But I do want to ask you, because it raises an unimportant question.
17:30Would the removal of a single leader fundamentally change the trajectory of the genocide in Gaza,
17:38the occupation of the Palestinian territories, even the war in Iran?
17:42What do you think?
17:43I don't think so. I don't think it would make a bit of a difference.
17:47Just as the killing, the murder of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei did not make a difference.
17:54In fact, it may have worsened the situation because now his son has taken over as the Rahbar or the
18:02leader, the supreme leader.
18:05And he is likely to be sympathetic to negotiations because his father was murdered.
18:11Members of his family were killed by the US-Israeli forces.
18:16Similarly, with regard to Israel, it is the establishment that is bent on destroying Iran, on fragmenting Iran, on creating,
18:27making Iran into a failed state.
18:31Because of the expansionist policies.
18:33It is the establishment. It is not just Netanyahu.
18:37So, if he were to leave the scene, he would be replaced by others who have the same intentions.
18:45Something you said earlier really, I think, made me curious.
18:50You mentioned the European response to this has been quite restrained, as has been the Gulf Arab states.
18:58I am quite curious about that.
19:00How are you interpreting this restraint on the part of the European countries?
19:06But also, from the perspective of the Gulf Arab states, is a destabilized Iran to the benefit of them or
19:15not?
19:16How do we think through how the Gulf Arab states are responding?
19:22A Saudi observer said recently that we, the Saudis, actually have nothing against Iran.
19:32Because we allowed our land to be used by American bases.
19:37And this can be said of all the Gulf states, right?
19:40We allowed our land to be used by American bases.
19:42We trusted the Americans.
19:44And what happened in the end is that the Americans are attacking a fellow Muslim country.
19:52And I think this is a sentiment, if not, maybe not expressed by all statesmen, all politicians or the media
20:01in the Arab world.
20:04But certainly on the Arab street, this is something that is being said.
20:10And they are saying that, you know, Palestine is Arab.
20:13But the non-Arab state is defending Palestine and is being attacked by Israel and is responding, right?
20:22No Arab state, well, for, it has been decades since the Arabs actually went to war against Israel.
20:30Yeah, so, and they are beginning to realize that they have been betrayed by the Americans.
20:37Because the Americans are using their resources, including the resources, the bases on Arab land, to protect Israel and not
20:46to protect the Arabs from Iranian retaliation.
20:51Furthermore, they need Iran.
20:53Iran is part of the region.
20:54Iran is a major power, a major military power.
20:58It is a major, it is the most advanced country scientifically in the region in terms of technological innovation, scientific
21:08innovation.
21:09Their theoretical physics, for example, is quite advanced.
21:12They are very advanced in nanotechnology and so on and so forth.
21:16So, they cannot afford, you know, to have a destabilized Iran.
21:23They need to have close relations with Iran and I hope they are coming to the realization that they need
21:29to work on this.
21:30I really appreciated that you pointed out that Iran is the only country that has taken an anti-imperialist stand
21:38in the region.
21:40And I think moments like this often expose a dilemma that people broadly may oppose imperial wars in principle, but
21:49then when it hurts their pocket,
21:51when, you know, they worry about the economic fallout, when the disruptions in the Straits of Humors affect oil prices,
21:57energy prices, food prices globally, that's when it hits close to home.
22:01How do you think we should be thinking about this?
22:04How do societies think about that tension between the material self-interest and the global solidarity against the anti-imperialist
22:14agenda?
22:16Yeah. Well, I think the world is, has already been thinking about this.
22:24The, there's much talk and even some movement towards a multipolar world, right?
22:30As opposed to a bipolar or a unipolar world.
22:33We actually live now and I think more in a unipolar world where you have, you know, a single hegemonic
22:38power, the United States.
22:41Unlike before where you had the US and the Soviet Union.
22:47So, the world now is thinking about multipolarity where you have, you know, several, you know, different powers coexisting.
22:59The BRICS is an example of, you know, of this expression of multipolarity.
23:09And the idea of de-dollar rising, moving away from, you know, one single currency.
23:16All those ideas are there.
23:18And the current war and Iran's response, Iran's retaliation, Iran's conditions for negotiation.
23:25For example, Iran said that we will allow passage through the Straits of Hormuz.
23:30If the tankers passing through, the ships passing through, will do their transactions in Yuan.
23:37The oil transactions should be carried out in Yuan.
23:39De-dollarization?
23:40De-dollarization, exactly.
23:42It's a brilliant idea.
23:44I'm sure the Iranians know that it's not going to happen.
23:46But they're making a statement, right?
23:48It's a contribution to, you know, to the whole multipolarity movement.
23:53It's a strong signal, definitely.
23:56At the start of a conversation, you said that you don't think this could escalate into World War III or
24:02a regional war,
24:03but you are concerned about nuclear escalation.
24:07What are you paying attention to, to see whether there are signs of that?
24:14What are you worried about now, going forward?
24:17Okay, I don't want to sensationalize the issue.
24:20I am merely referring to what some observers, some serious observers of the war have been saying.
24:29Personally, I find it difficult to believe that it would happen because, as it is,
24:36at the end of this war, if things continue the way they are taking place right now,
24:44Israel is going to be greatly weakened.
24:46It has already taken a beating in terms of its image internationally as a genocidal state.
24:53Some of its elite, Netanyahu included, have been charged with genocide
25:01and there are warrants of arrest for them by the International Court of Justice.
25:09So that is already a problem.
25:10Now, if they were to actually use a nuclear weapon, I think this would be the end of Israel.
25:15It would be revealed to the world because they have never admitted that they have nuclear weapons.
25:19That's right.
25:20It would be revealed to the world.
25:22As it is, I think these are the last days of Israel.
25:26They are increasingly being seen as a rogue state.
25:35So I doubt very much that they would resort to nuclear weapons.
25:38And in terms of the war in general, is there a way out, an end game for the US, for
25:46Iran?
25:47It seems now that it is Iran which is holding back because Iran wants the situation to reach a stage
26:01where the US and Israel will have to be more amenable to their terms, to Iranian terms.
26:07Yes.
26:08Iran doesn't want to negotiate right now because they are afraid that the whole thing can be repeated.
26:15You know, you have a ceasefire and then in a few months, next year, there's another attack.
26:21Right?
26:21So they want guarantees.
26:23So I think they want to show their force.
26:27They want to show that they're able to destabilize the world economy.
26:30They want to show their military might so that there will be a negotiation that's to their satisfaction.
26:35Meaning, lifting of sanctions, reparations and respect for Iran's basic rights such as nuclear enrichment.
26:47These are some of the guarantees that they want.
26:50Prof, thank you so much for speaking with me on the show. I appreciate your time.
26:54That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:57I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching and good night.
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