00:16the sinking by a torpedo head of the Iranian frigate iris dina on February 4th some 375
00:27kilometers from the Indian shores has ignited a fierce debate in India. The sinking of the warship
00:33returning to Iran after taking part in a multi-country naval fleet review in India
00:38cut too close for New Delhi's comfort both in terms of its nautical proximity as well as its
00:45political fallout for Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Although the strike happened in the international
00:50waters and reportedly after the US submarine commander warned the Iranian frigate it has
00:57set off several questions. To understand some of the details MCR spoke to see Uday Bhaskar one of
01:04India's foremost strategic and military affairs experts and a retired Indian Navy Commodore Uday
01:13Bhaskar. Welcome to Mayank Shire reports Uday it's always a great pleasure to have you.
01:19Ditto Mayank you know I always look forward to being invited by you. Uday how common or normal is it
01:27for a
01:27nuclear submarine from any country let alone from the US to be essentially brushing past about 200
01:35nautical miles or 370 kilometers to the exclusive of the exclusive economic zone is that a common
01:42number one? Number one nuclear powered submarines are a very rare kind of underwater platform they're not too
01:53many of them only the major powers have them as in the United States Russia UK France China and India
02:02are
02:03the only nations that have this capability and when they are deployed they remain undetected
02:11generally and this is a thumb rule they do not come very close to the coastline of any other country
02:20unless there is an overwhelming operational need so in the specific instance that we are talking about
02:28which is the sinking of the Iranian ship the IRIS Dheena by the United States using an SSN which is
02:37the nuclear
02:38propelled submarine at a location which is approximately 30 nautical miles in Sri Lanka's exclusive economic zone so it's very
02:51approximate whether you say it was 20 nautical miles or 40 nautical miles it's a very small kind of difference
02:57you know in the
02:58maritime domain so that is unusual unless there is as I said an overwhelming tactical operational need and in this
03:08case it appears that the United States
03:10found it necessary or came to a determination that they would acquire this Iranian ship and neutralize it which is
03:16to say sink it by using a torpedo so this is an unusual occurrence both in terms of the proximity
03:25and the choice of the
03:28a spot in the ocean that is a spot in the ocean that is so close both to Sri Lanka
03:32and to India
03:35is it then are you saying clearly that nuclear submarines are not detectable period
03:42yes that's the thumb rule I mean that's why they are considered to be such potent platforms the idea of
03:48a nuclear powered submarine is that it remains underwater for extended periods it can be for months on end
03:55the endurance the endurance the endurance is determined not by the material state of the boat or the reactor but
04:00by the endurance of the crew
04:03otherwise
04:03I was thinking more in terms of when it approaches the surface as or it doesn't have to approach the
04:11surface
04:12nuclear powered submarine does not surface it only surfaces when it leaves harbor enters harbor
04:19I'm I'm the reason I'm asking these elementary questions is because these not these have not been explained by anyone
04:26so
04:26I'm glad you're clarifying that
04:28so that's the whole idea that when the first nuclear powered submarine the US is Nautilus had carried out a
04:35successful patrol
04:36it remains totally undetected and underwater so this is the USP of a nuclear powered boat that it can remain
04:44underwater for extended periods and the only sort of determining factor is human endurance or in the very unlikely event
04:54that there is some kind of a technical failure or a technical glitch that compares the submarine to surface
05:02okay
05:03okay
05:03so that's the difference between nuclear powered boat and
05:06and it could have fired the torpedo from any depth
05:10say again
05:11it could have fired its torpedo from any depths
05:14well technically the torpedo will be fired only when you have acquired the target
05:18fair enough but I'm thinking what depth should it be
05:21well basically it should be at you know a depth that would ensure that contact is made
05:27if you go too deep you know you have to traverse water which means that is three dimensional
05:33right
05:33you have to traverse a certain length you also have to surface to be able to hit the surface ship
05:39because the surface ship will only have a draft of between three to five meters you know depending on the
05:44size of the ship
05:45so therefore the submarine has to be launched at such a depth that it can both traverse the longitudinal you
05:52know the x axis and also the y axis to be able to reach that particular height
05:58so that's a very calibrated kind of a decision
06:00so in this case I'm sure the u.s submarine would have found an appropriate depth to make sure that
06:06the target was acquired and the torpedo made contact and the ship sank
06:09so it was successful but also historically I think the u.s secretary of war mr hexet made this point
06:15that it's after 40 1945 the end of world war 2 2026
06:23so we are talking of almost 81 years in terms of the use of a torpedo by a u.s
06:31summary because the last time there was such an exigency was in the four planes war of 1982
06:37and knowing your point is quite possible that you covered that war
06:41you are like Ripran Winkle
06:43now there is no war that we have not covered
06:47unfortunately unfortunately not
06:48but I'm glad
06:50Royal Navy UK used submarine at that time against Argentina
06:54but that which is why I said the use of SSN is a rare occurrence that's my point
07:00yeah
07:00now it's it's an interesting segue you gave me I was going to ask you about the fact that it's
07:05for the first time in Asia
07:0681 years that a torpedo was used how do you read is there any particular significance to that or just
07:12an operational detail
07:14no it's an operational detail meaning that if you have a capability you decide when to use it
07:19okay
07:20we just said earlier on that only six nations have nuclear propelled underwater platforms within that the United States leads
07:28the pack
07:29right
07:30the United States has only nuclear power submarines
07:33other countries have diesel submarines because they cannot afford to have only nuclear submarine nuclear powered
07:38and the SSN of the United States is in a class by itself
07:42it's a very lethal platform
07:44and any country uses military capability on an as required basis
07:48so in this particular case clearly
07:50President Trump and his team came to a determination
07:53that they would pick up an adversary an enemy ship in the Indian Ocean
07:57did they need to do it?
07:59my reading is perhaps not
08:01but then I'm not privy to the intelligence that the United States has maybe
08:04and this is my conjecture
08:06they could say that they had received intelligence that the Iranians are going to use the ship
08:10to pick up an American asset in the Arabian sea
08:14and therefore they have to neutralize it
08:16anyway this is actually not a point that we can really question because at war
08:22any enemy ship I'm talking about the naval maritime domain
08:26is a legitimate target
08:28right
08:29nobody I mean personally I would say that one cannot question as to
08:32was the US you know within its rights as it were in the conduct of war
08:38to carry out this torpedo attack
08:41the short answer is yes
08:44just one last technical detail before I get into a broader picture
08:49the Dina was a 1500 ton frigate
08:52typically how long does it take for a vessel like that to sink fully?
08:58oh that's an interesting question
09:00much depends on the extent of the damage
09:03suppose a boat is hit by multiple torpedoes
09:06you know there are cases where ships have been struck by more than one torpedo
09:10in which case the rate of sinking is much faster
09:14suppose you have three gaping holes
09:16at the right depth in terms of the ship taking in water
09:23then the rate of sinking would be much faster
09:26if the ship is struck only at one point
09:29where the crew is able to in a way
09:32make sure that it is watertight
09:34and only that part of the ship has water entering
09:37this has happened in World War II
09:38ships have been hit by torpedoes
09:41and they have managed to carry out damage control
09:44and in a way sanitize
09:45not sanitize but seal that compartment
09:47and ensure no more water would enter into the rest of the ship
09:49and they have actually used their propulsion
09:52to enter harbor and limp their way back to harbor
09:55it's an extraordinary phase of endurance
09:57so the warship is a very sturdy platform
10:00and of course if it is hit in a very very damaging way
10:03like in India
10:04if you remember we had the iris cookery
10:06in the 1971 war
10:08the Argentinians lost the cruiser
10:10in the 1982 Falklands war
10:12so much depends on where the ship is hit
10:15and the rate at which water enters
10:18and you know basically
10:20okay
10:21unstable and safe
10:22you know going by the unclassified video
10:25released by the U.S. Department of Defense
10:28one gets the sense that it's practically split into half
10:32and if you go purely visually
10:34yeah yeah
10:35you're right I mean that were the images that we saw
10:37that were released by the United States
10:40that it was yeah you're split
10:41it was literally I think you know
10:43hit your head center
10:45leading to this kind of destruction of the ship
10:48and it's falling
10:49which led to the thinking
10:50and just the final question about that part
10:53as a sailor of great standing yourself
10:57you were there in the Navy for 37 years I think
11:00right
11:00yes I was
11:02describe to me what goes through a sailor's mind
11:05I know it's difficult for you to speculate on that
11:09but something like that happening at sea
11:12what happens
11:13you know again I can only speculate conjecture
11:16in India because my you know own experience at sea has been limited
11:19I never took part in a war war
11:21for India the big naval war was 1971
11:26and we were under training at that time I had just joined the Navy
11:29but I do know by from talking to colleagues and those who were part of the 1971 war and who
11:36were on the cookery
11:38as a matter of fact I had course mates you know my contemporaries
11:41who were midshipmen sub-lieutenants at that time on board the cookery
11:46and their tales you know were something that we all shared as young people
11:49so that was a first-hand kind of account
11:51that it all happened in a split second
11:53you know meaning the ship is hit
11:55and there is obviously a lot of shall we say attempt to try and ensure that the damage is controlled
12:01which is why we use the term damage control on the ship
12:05but it's not successful
12:07and then in a matter of minutes you know you have lifeboats being lowered
12:11you have life rafts being cast
12:13and much depends whether it's dark or there is light
12:16has it happened in daytime or at night
12:18if it happens at night it becomes that much more difficult
12:20there is obviously a lot of chaos
12:23and there's a lot of shall we say you know
12:26destruction that has happened in the ship itself
12:28there could be fire
12:29there could be explosions depending on where the attack has taken place
12:33so it's a very very tragic kind of shall we say sequence of events
12:38now some of these of course have been brought into a visual frame
12:42particularly when you think of films like the titanic
12:45or if you think of any of the world war 2 films
12:47when you see both you know the expanse of the ocean
12:52and how puny the individual is the human being
12:56and then you are really at the mercy of nature and the ocean
13:02and when the end comes it's very swift
13:05unfortunately we cannot think of any first-hand accounts
13:08because once you have lost your life at sea
13:11only you know what are the thoughts
13:14the rest of it is we talk about people who were rescued
13:18and those accounts are with us
13:19but I think those final moments you know when you go down to the bottom of the sea
13:23and this is not something that's happened you know recently
13:28for centuries ever since the human species has endeavoured to cross the oceans
13:34ships have been sunk by natural disasters by storms or by human intervention which is to say that war-like
13:44activities have led to ships being sunk
13:47and many lives have been lost it's tragic
13:50it's also epic at one level you know when you think of how the human lives can be lost at
13:57sea
13:57yeah to broaden a bit do you think the US Navy should have or indeed did give its Indian counterpart
14:05any heads up on the presence of the submarine
14:08I'm not saying they are obliged to but do you think they should ask
14:13no again you know let me sort of try and attempt a nuanced response
14:16number one no submarine no Navy is going to give the adversary a headlong
14:22you are at war so the submarine commander would have been given instructions to pick up you know the target
14:28every Iranian ship is a legitimate target
14:31he the submarine would have definitely been given inputs
14:34there would be other agencies in the United States military tracking the ship
14:39so that information would have been made available
14:41and the entire US network that was engaged in this operation
14:47from the headquarters at different levels would be aware
14:50nobody would disclose the submarine's location or what kind of action it would take that is left to the commander
14:56but and this is the but that I want to introduce
14:59the United States could have perhaps done something more than what it did
15:04to ensure that there was a better rescue at sea
15:09more lives could have been saved
15:11that is my limited point
15:13no no I think you perhaps misheard
15:16I was not saying they should have alerted the Iranians
15:19I'm saying they should have perhaps given heads up to India
15:22given that we do not tired of talking about
15:25the 21st century's most important strategic relationship between the two countries
15:30you're right there's a lot of dismay in India
15:34about the fact that India was you know surprised
15:36the Iranian ship was a guest
15:38we had the international police review
15:40and the optics for the Modi government were not looking good at all
15:45and yes there's been a lot of dismay
15:47the opposition parties have also made very strong statements about this
15:51but objectively keeping the politics aside
15:54I would say that definitely for India
15:57this was a setback
15:59in terms of shall we say the optics of the whole event
16:03for the United States
16:05an operation of this nature
16:07would they have shared this information with India
16:10unlikely
16:11you know submarine operations are very confidential
16:14very secret
16:15only the submarine commander
16:17and his immediate vertical
16:18would know about the operation
16:20so I think it would be unfair to say
16:23that the United States should have informed India
16:25because then the onus on India becomes even more difficult
16:28you know suppose hypothetically
16:30the Indian government or the prime minister was informed
16:33what does he do
16:34can he inform Iran
16:36does he keep it with himself
16:37so I think this is not a
16:40understood
16:40probable situation
16:42yeah
16:43India was not in the loop
16:45indeed
16:46I have no smoking gun
16:48but I repeat this point
16:50that
16:51after the submarine had discharged its ordnance
16:54the torpedo and the ship were sinking
16:56the United States had the ability to ensure
16:59that the distress signals were picked up
17:02in a more enabling manner
17:04in this case if you remember the sequence of events
17:08it was the Iranian ship that put out the distress signal
17:11as they were sinking
17:13that was picked up by various agencies
17:15including Sri Lanka and India
17:16and because it was closer to Sri Lanka
17:19the Sri Lanka Navy was the first to respond
17:22and in turn they coordinated some activities
17:25but I personally am off the view
17:28I've said this in print when I wrote about this
17:31that
17:32perhaps the rescue effort
17:34could have been more nimble
17:37could have been more collective
17:39and could have been more empathetic
17:42and I believe that more lives would have been lost
17:44yeah
17:45and if you permit me since you are going to be showing this
17:47in the United States
17:48I have written an article in which I flipped the whole situation
17:51and spoke about a hypothetical scenario
17:54where if an American platform
17:59had been in a similar situation
18:01and it was American sailors who had to be saved
18:04because their ship had been struck
18:07and they were similarly
18:10shipwrights or survivors to be picked up
18:13and a distress signal had been sent
18:16my sense is that the regional response
18:20including that of India
18:21would perhaps have been far more nimble
18:25and more effective
18:26and more lives would have been saved
18:27so this is the slightly I would say to me uneasy
18:30and you know I am a bit
18:34saddened if I could put it that way
18:36that the code of the sea
18:38you know the code of the sea is that
18:40whenever there is a survivor who has to be picked up
18:42rescued
18:44it doesn't matter what national
18:45right
18:47the code of the sea says that whoever
18:49is able to should respond
18:50whether it's a merchant ship
18:52a warship
18:52it can even be a sailing boat
18:54I mean we have had instances in India
18:57of Indian sailors
18:58we have a very well known sailor in India
19:00Tomi Abhilash who won the Golden Globe
19:02who spoke about you know an occasion
19:04when he diverted his own sailboat
19:06because there was somebody who had to be picked up
19:09at sea because he was there and he heard
19:11he had got the signal
19:12so it's in that sense
19:14I'm of the view
19:15personal view
19:16minority view
19:18that the rescue effort
19:21could have been more empathetic
19:23and the United States is culpable in this
19:26okay
19:27to conclude
19:27we now know that India has indeed given refuge
19:31to another warship at Kochi
19:34which is at Kochi right now
19:35that's what I heard and read
19:37and that the Indian Navy did indeed respond to the Dina's distress call
19:42how do you read that in a broader strategic frame
19:45given that India has given severe criticism
19:49you know this is a very complex issue mainly because as you know apart from India
19:53Sri Lanka has also given access to another Iranian ship because it had a technical problem
20:00now what happens is that the United States and Iran are at war
20:05it's actually US plus one which is US and Israel you know versus Iran
20:09any nation that is seen to be providing support
20:14could be termed belligerent
20:16and given the kind of characteristics that we associate with President Donald Trump
20:21and the fact that he takes umbrage even you know shall we say
20:25when nations act in a certain manner it is seen as a personal kind of insult to him
20:30and he has used various measures to punish nations
20:33he has insulted leaders in public
20:36so nations are very wary
20:39and there is a protocol which says that if a man of war of a state that is at war
20:44has any kind of machinery failure or a humanitarian exigency
20:50and it has to enter harbour then there are certain guidelines under which a coastal state
20:56whether it's a Sri Lanka or an India in this case can provide that kind of access and support
21:01but this is a limited window
21:03but Sri Lanka has dealt with this I would say very intelligently
21:06which is that innovatively that they have allowed the Iranian ship to enter
21:11and they disembarked the entire crew
21:14the Iranian crew is technically now under quarantine
21:17not quarantine but definitely they are not on board
21:20so that way they are I am sure they are consulting and keeping the Americans informed
21:23but we have not had such a situation where the United States has been directly involved
21:28and smaller states whether it's Sri Lanka or countries like India
21:32have had to take a decision about how to deal with the humanitarian part
21:37because there is a convention a protocol to say that if a ship is in distress
21:41there is an obligation as per the conventions to provide that assistance
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