00:07Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:13It is our pleasure today to welcome Lieutenant General Ajay Kumar Singh,
00:20former G.O.C.N.C. Sudden Command. He is from the 11th Gurkhas, popularly known as Kiranthi,
00:32and is a very touching book which he has authored called Echos of Courage, Untold Heroism of the
00:42Indian Armed Forces. This has been co-authored by Rajan Arya, who is a veteran publisher.
00:58Right since 1994 or so, he has published, he is the publisher of Pentagon, the owner of Pentagon
01:09and has published a large number of books on military and strategic affairs. There is another
01:18officer of the 11th Gurkha Rifles, none other than General Anil Chauhan,
01:27also of the 11th Gurkha Rifles, who has written the foreword for this book.
01:34He has very well brought out all the most touching aspects of 18 heroes that General Ajay Kumar has written
01:53about.
01:56So, having served in, in my case, served, I was commissioned in the Madras regiment,
02:08which had, as troops from, which is the oldest regiment of the Indian Army, and as troops from all
02:14South Indian communities, and then getting transferred to a very, very industrious regiment called
02:26Four Horse, which did very well in 1965 and 1971 wars, and which in 1965 destroyed the maximum number of
02:40tanks of tanks of Pakistan army, mostly which were very, very modern tanks then, the patents.
02:50And they, these were destroyed by centurions, which the Four Horse had then.
02:56And what I'm trying to say is that, I had the, the good fortune of seeing, not only experiencing,
03:06you know, working with the group from South Indian communities, and then in Four Horse,
03:11Punjabi, it's a Punjabi regiment, two Sikh squadrons, one Douglas squadron.
03:17And then as a public relations officer, I've had the chance to see a bird's eye view of the entire
03:27army.
03:29And what I can say is, I think, there is no doubt about the fact that Indian Army has the
03:35best soldiers in the world.
03:37It's not only me who's saying it. In the First World War, where there were 1.25 million Indian soldiers,
03:49who were the winning factor for the Allies in that war. And in the Second World War, there were double
03:58that amount,
03:592.5 million Indian soldiers, who were the very definite winning factor in that war for the Allies.
04:09And after both these wars, in these two wars, and after that, they've been acknowledged by the Allies and the
04:18Axis powers,
04:19and the armies of the Axis countries, as the best in the world.
04:25And the great thing about them is their simplicity, their discipline, and their professionalism, and most important, courage.
04:36Courage comes just naturally to them. And what is most important about the book by General Ajay Kumar is that,
04:49you know, not everyone who has displayed gallantry in war, or in other conflicts, gets awarded with the, you know,
05:04gets presented with gallantry awards. There are very many, very brave personnel, who have, you know,
05:14gone beyond the call of duty, and displayed great courage, but, well, not got gallery awards. They're unsung, but they're
05:25not,
05:26they're not unremembered. They are remembered by all their colleagues, and their seniors and their juniors.
05:33I will not dwell any further. I will request General Ajay Kumar Singh to throw light on all these 18
05:45braves,
05:4615 of whom are soldiers. And the last three very, very interestingly, and yet very touchingly,
05:57is Manasi is Manasi, a four-legged canine. And then there's Badongi, a mule. In case you don't know,
06:08mules are used in the Indian Army for carrying loads in the mountains. And last is a very, very, very
06:18unusual, a bear who got befriended,
06:23who befriended, who befriended the humans who were around him, these soldiers, and who became a part of, of them.
06:30General Ajay, please proceed.
06:34Sir, firstly, thank you very much. I think it's a great honor to be here and to be talking about
06:41my third book, sir.
06:44So, it's a very special book, in the sense, you know, my first book was about spirituality, a very different
06:51topic, especially in the armed forces.
06:54And I selected this topic because I had great belief in spirituality. And in that book, it's basically my PhD
07:05thesis converted into a book,
07:06in which I have given a model, and I have said that spirituality is a great enabler of military leadership.
07:14My second book was about my wife, Shalini. And I lost her on 1st of April 2020. And for 14
07:23years, I think she braved a great amount of physical pain.
07:28She had chronic renal failure. But I think like a true army wife, she bearded it all, she smiled all
07:35through it, and still continued to do her duty.
07:37And I thought that her story also needs to be told. It's a great motivation story. And it's a story
07:44of, I feel that every, every army family, you know, you given instances, you can change the instances, but it's
07:53a family, it's a story of every, every army family.
07:56Now, this third book is very special, sir. And like you mentioned, you know, it's, there are countless in armed
08:04forces, we are deployed in very challenging terrains.
08:07And, you know, especially in India, right from the great heights of Siachen Glacier, to about 20, 22,000 feet,
08:16we come down to the mountainous area, we come down to the hills, we come down to plains of Punjab,
08:21and then to the desert area, and then to the desert area of Rajasthan. Our soldiers guard the borders. And
08:29I feel that every soldier, you know, does great acts of valor, courage, and sacrifice.
08:39In the count of, you know, since independence, we've had number of Indian armed forces have been involved in large
08:47number of wars, in counter-incigency conflicts, in aid to civil authority.
08:53So there are countless stories. In fact, nowadays, everyone is talking about Dhurander.
08:59You know, so we also have a spy story in our collection of 18 stories. But I think in Indian
09:06armed forces, there are countless Dhurandas.
09:09And I thought that we must talk about these untold stories, and bring it to the wider audience, so that
09:17people can relate as to what an armed forces life is, what it offers,
09:23but also resolves issues within themselves. I think that becomes extremely important. And why I'm saying is, you are aware
09:32that what is happening in this society,
09:34you know, you know, when you compare what's happening in the society, and then in such kind of circumstances, how
09:42does a soldier get his motivation?
09:44And how does a soldier faces these grave, you know, odds? So I thought that this is, these are stories,
09:52these countless stories of people who are not very well known.
09:56This needs to be brought to the wider audience. So this is the first set of 18 stories. And we
10:02are not going to stop here.
10:03We will continue to churn out more volumes, and bring such stories to the wider audience.
10:10Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You know, it's very, if you lost your wife, which I'm very sorry to
10:21hear about.
10:22I lost my own wife in January this year. And just as you said, she soldiered on. She died of,
10:31you know, lung problems.
10:37Since 2015, she had been suffering from interstitial lung disease. And again, anyway.
10:47But as you, you were, you were so right when you, you know, say that, and it's, it's very heartening
10:54to hear that you will be telling us about more,
10:58you know, you know, unsung braves, unsung heroes. Could you throw light on, you know, just a couple of them,
11:08a few of them?
11:27It's very heartening to hear that you will be, you are collecting, you know, more accounts of many more, you
11:36know, unsung heroes.
11:38Could you throw some light on some of these, who you have written about in this book?
11:45So, right from the first story, if you see the first story relates with Major Ongkar Singh Kalkat.
11:54And it is right from, right from the 1947. So, just see where an officer in the course of his
12:01normal duties comes across a very special and significant intelligence.
12:06And he is not even waiting for orders. He decides, along with few of his soldiers, in such circumstances, you
12:14know, we could put ourselves in such circumstances,
12:16where there's absolutely no certainty and there was danger lurking in every corner.
12:21But look at him, look at his motivation, look at his courage that he, you know, escapes from there and
12:29he comes to India, he comes to Delhi and shares this piece of information.
12:33I think this was extremely crucial. Most of the people may not be aware.
12:37It was very crucial, very important because the British were siding with the Pakistanis.
12:44Absolutely.
12:45In the 1947-48 war.
12:47So, the Britishers were playing a double game.
12:49A double game. They were siding with the Pakistanis.
12:52And they were siding with the Pakistanis.
12:53They were sharing a lot of, you know, intelligence about Indian army with them.
12:58Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I think this was wonderful. So, this is the first story. And if I come to the
13:03second story, sir, it's about Kal Narendra Burkumar.
13:06I think who doesn't know him? A great mountaineer. He was the commandant of the Attitude Warfare School.
13:12And during the course of his adventure treks and his mountaineering expedition, he was the first officer to note the
13:21nefarious designs of the Pakistan.
13:23When Pakistan was clearing the foreign expeditions to the Siachen Glacier and leaving the telltale marks and was actually preparing
13:32to occupy.
13:33And that, at that crucial period of time, he's the one who, you know, mapped that particular area, gave back
13:40this information and because of that operation Meghdoot was lost.
13:43I think Kal Narendra Burkumar played the most important and most pivotal role.
13:49And it is because of that, that the Siachen Glacier stays with us.
13:53It is there with us. And it is extremely important at this, you know, sort of point of time where
13:58it juts between and, you know, does not provide that kind of a connectivity between Pakistan and China.
14:05So, you know, we, till the time we are there, I think it's a great, you know, strategic advantage that
14:12India has.
14:13Coming down to the other stories, which two of them are from Levenje, are very, very different.
14:18And, you know, so you are aware what happened in 1962.
14:23And I think the Indian army was sort of still, you know, you know, in under a little bit of
14:30an issue because of the debacle of 1962.
14:34But in 1967, only a couple of years later, when the Chinese came to the area of Nathula and Chola.
14:41I have written in my book, China bloodies bulletless borders.
14:46It is based on the skirmishes of 1967 and Nathula and Chola.
14:52And even I have had the pleasure and honor of writing about this rifleman who used his kukri very, very
15:02effectively.
15:04Absolutely, sir, I think you are aware, rifleman Devi Prasad Limbu, a young soldier, a young soldier, he sees the
15:11situation, he is not waiting for orders.
15:13And he takes out his kukri and he kills a large number of Chinese soldiers.
15:18In fact, his bravery and his act of courage was acknowledged by none other than the Chinese.
15:24And they returned his body with great honor.
15:27You know, so this is a, this is a wonderful, I think the Indian armed forces redeemed themselves in 1967,
15:35Chola and Nathula.
15:36I think this was a watershed moment, watershed moment.
15:39It was a great shock to the Chinese also about how, you know, they lost over 400.
15:45Absolutely, absolutely.
15:47They lost 400, you know, fairly casualties.
15:49True, sir, true, sir.
15:50And the next story is again, very unique.
15:53The first documented case where a supersonic aircraft, a saber jet was brought down by a light machine.
16:01Light machine.
16:02And this fact was acknowledged by the pilot, by the pilot who was captured.
16:06He was the one who pointed while, you know, there were a lot of people who were saying that, you
16:10know, they have done it.
16:11But he's the one who identified and it was rifleman Dhan Bahadur Rai, who still is alive in Nepal.
16:18I have, you know, since he's from my unit, 711 JR, we keep meeting him very often.
16:23So, again, a great sort of piece of information.
16:25Then coming down, sir, like, you know, Khan Sangwan, sir, from the ordinance.
16:30I think the lady which scaled Mount Everest against great odds.
16:37So, this again is a great story.
16:39And today we are aware how women are playing a very, very important role.
16:44Not only in the society at large, sir, but also in the Indian Armed Forces.
16:49And today they are actually tenenting the command assignments also.
16:53So, I think it's a great.
16:55So, this story sort of underscores that particular, you know, issue.
16:59Then we have stories from the Air Force in 1971 when the aircraft was, you know, the Sukhoi 7 was
17:10down.
17:11And the flight lieutenant Parulkar, along with two other flight lieutenants, they planned an escape.
17:20But though they were caught in Afghanistan, near the Afghanistan border, but I think it was a daredevil attempt in
17:26which they planned in detail.
17:27They executed it superbly, but just by sheer bad luck they were caught.
17:32But again, you know, even in captivity, imagine the morale of the armed forces, you know, and the sailors and
17:40the airmen and the officers and everyone.
17:42Then we have the story of the submariner, you know, Firdaus.
17:47Again, left-hand commander Firdaus, a Mughal, did a great work, you know, when they were actually repairing the submarine.
17:53And some of his sailors were washed ashore by a great wave.
17:58And he, without utter disregard to his life, he jumped and he saved the life of number of sailors and
18:05personals at the cost of his own life.
18:09He, in fact, he was dashed against the submarine and he died in that particular operation.
18:15Again, I think these are stories of great sacrifice with utter disregard to personal safety.
18:21And not only them, sir, you have the story of Naib Subedar Chunilal.
18:27You know, imagine someone who participated in large number of operations, got a Senna medal, got a Ashok Chakra and
18:35got a VRC in the CICT.
18:37Just see, you know, one person participating in large number of and coming out with absolute flying colors.
18:44Then again, sir, if we come down out of these 18 stories, there are very interesting stories you mentioned about
18:49Pedonghi.
18:50I was the 33 Corps commander and I've been to the unit, you know, to which Pedonghi.
18:56Just imagine a mule who gets a VRC, you know, who is fighting in two operations earlier, you know, and
19:0462 and then later in 71.
19:06In 71, he was captured by the Pakistanis and the mule are a great asset to the Indian armed forces,
19:14especially at those great heights.
19:16I have extensively seen the mules, sir.
19:20Once they are aware of the area, sir, do you just put the load?
19:25There are some very touching stories about mules and about how, almost like, you know, temperamental, temperamental also.
19:39The mules, in fact, sir, are just not affected by the artillery shells and the firing going around them.
19:46He is absolutely focused on his tasks, sir.
19:50He knows the route.
19:51Once you load him, sir, he doesn't need anybody.
19:53He would, you know, go there straight and deliver the load.
19:57So, they have done a great service.
19:58These Indian army mules have done great service to the Indian armed forces.
20:03Then we have, you know, the again, another four-legged creature, the Mansi, the Labrador, you know, which in area
20:10of Coopwada, you know, goes and participates in a very successful operation with a great success to the Indian army
20:18at the cost of her life and the life of the handler.
20:22And, sir, both of them are buried at the same place side by side.
20:26I think just see how this connect of a soldier with the animal and how this combination of a soldier
20:35and animal becomes so, so very strong.
20:37And today, we are seeing, sir, what's happening in Russia, Ukraine, sir.
20:41We are happening.
20:41We are seeing what's happening in Israel, U.S. and the Iran conflict.
20:46While people are talking of the technological edge, while people are talking of artificial intelligence.
20:51But I would always say, sir, it is the man behind the machine.
20:55And through this program of yours, I would also like to put it on record that I think Indian armed
21:01forces are actually blessed with the best of young officers, best of senior officers, and with the best of army
21:09personals, sailors, and our own airmen, sir.
21:12I think they are the best in the world.
21:15They are one who did not ask for anything, sir, whose motivation is always high, who have gone through tough
21:22times.
21:22And they can really, in difficult circumstances, decide and come out absolutely on top of the situation.
21:28I think it's a great.
21:30And the last about the Bahadur, the bear, you know, who's there on the Siachen Glacier, you know, how a
21:36bond is established.
21:38So, I think in the course of his career, the armed forces, personals come across very, very interesting kind of
21:47situation.
21:47And I would also like to just touch upon Major Ashok Tara, sir, how he rescues the family of Muzibur
21:53Rehman against great odds, sir.
21:55When, you know, the army is defeated and anything can happen.
21:59You know, they are still holding the family as hostess, but he's the one who goes there.
22:04And it's again a great, again about the Sabirah commander in the Bhopal gas tragedy, brigadier, many, sir.
22:12I think it's a great, when everyone is running away from situation, you know, the armed forces, when they come
22:18in aid to civil authority, everyone is coming out.
22:21They are the one who are entering into that danger zone.
22:24And they are risking their lives to save the lives of their own citizens and of the countrymen.
22:29And it happens, you know, we, we, every, literally on a day-to-day basis, we have such great stories.
22:34So, I think this story, again, is extremely, extremely important, sir.
22:39And Badlu Ram, sir, Assam, I think everybody knows about Badlu Ram Ka Badhan, sir.
22:45How, just imagine, sir, how this young soldier and the rations that are drawn in his name saves, you know,
22:51the day.
22:51And people are aware of the Badlu Ram and the song, but people are not aware of the story.
22:56So, I thought the story needs to be told to everyone so that people sort of, the ghost of Lensdowne
23:03is, again, a wonderful tale, sir.
23:04You know, in armed forces, we are living in very old, ancient, 100, 150, like I was, as a Southern
23:10Army commander, I was staying in a, in the, in the command house, Polo Vistas, sir, which is 1886.
23:17So, it's a very old, very old.
23:19So, similarly, Lensdowne is a great old cantonment.
23:23And there are a number of ghost stories.
23:25I think most of the old cantonments have such stories.
23:28So, I think it's, again, one flavor that I thought I must add to this bouquet of the 18, you
23:34know, sort of stories.
23:35So, sir, finally, I think I would like to say, sir, that we are really blessed.
23:42And, you know, to be in uniform and to be of service to India.
23:46I think the Indian armed forces have a great, great role in the nation building, sir.
23:51There is no doubt about it.
23:52There is no doubt about it.
23:53I began by saying that I think I, I'm, I'm, I've never forget that I'm, have had the privilege of
24:02serving the, you know, of serving with the best soldiers in the world.
24:07Absolutely, sir.
24:08And I would also like to sort of state that when the, when the nation makes you don the uniform,
24:16I think it is a great honor that a nation bestows on you when you are donning the uniform.
24:21Because it is entrusting you the responsibility of guarding the security and the sovereignty of the country.
24:28And I dare say, sir, that the armed forces have always stood to the test of time and have acquitted
24:34themselves with great glory.
24:36So, Indian armed forces have great tradition.
24:39And I think the, the, you know, the, the citizen of India definitely look forward and you are well aware,
24:47sir, that when it comes to the benchmarking as to who the most credible organization, I think the Indian armed
24:53forces year after year have been acknowledged as the most credible organization, most credible establishment.
25:00And the Indian citizens look up to their armed forces.
25:04Tested by time and terrain.
25:06Absolutely, absolutely.
25:08And I think they will continue to, they will continue to.
25:11And not only that, sir, in the next edition, we will also bring out stories.
25:15When even as a veteran, sir, like now I have retired about 22 months back, but I tell people, sir,
25:21that I have not retired, I have retired.
25:24So, you know, we are the only people who still carry their rank up to the grave and even beyond
25:30the grave or the piers.
25:32So, we are rolled towards nation building continues, sir.
25:36It is not.
25:37And I feel that, you know, the age of 60 to 70 years is again a good age, sir.
25:41In which, you know, you have loads of experience.
25:44You have nothing to prove, sir.
25:46And you have no liabilities, sir.
25:47I think it is a great time when we can give back to the society, we can give back to
25:53the nation building.
25:55And especially today, when our senior hierarchy has said that by 2047, we would be a developed country.
26:02I think the Indian Armed Forces veterans can play a very crucial role, you know, when they were in uniform
26:08and also as veterans.
26:11As veterans, like people like you, sir, you know, are still through various means and ways are playing a great
26:17pivotal role.
26:21Thank you very much, Ajay, for bringing out some wonderful stories of, wonderful and very touching stories of, you know,
26:32bravery, valour of all, you know, soldiers, sailors.
26:40And I wish you a happy writing to come out with many more.
26:47Thank you, sir.
26:48I, in fact, forgot to mention, sir.
26:50Credit to Rajan Nariya, you mentioned it, sir.
26:53I think, you know, there are people in uniform and there are some wonderful citizens who are out of uniform.
26:59I think Rajan Nariya happens to be one, sir.
27:01He is a soldier at heart, sir.
27:03And I think through his publishing and through taking out such books, he is doing a great yeoman service, sir.
27:08You know something, even Pakistani authors have come to India and got books published by him.
27:16Yes, sir.
27:17Asar Abbas and Vijay Rusein are two.
27:21Correct, sir.
27:22Absolutely, sir.
27:23I had the pleasure of meeting also.
27:26And I also wish to acknowledge, sir, Colonel Ajay Singh of the Amat Koh, sir, who resides in Pune, a
27:32prolific author, sir.
27:34His contribution also toward these stories is absolutely immense.
27:37And I think I must acknowledge his great contribution towards taking out this particular book, sir.
27:44Thank you, sir.
27:46Thank you, sir.
27:46Thank you, sir.
27:47Thank you very much.
27:48Jai Hind.
27:49Jai Hind, sir.
27:50Jai Hind, sir.
27:51A great honour.
27:51Praise God.
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