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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up with the Royals, the show that never complains but always explains, with me Richard
00:06Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:09Coming up, we discuss what's really going on behind the scenes as the royal family battle one of their biggest
00:14ever scandals.
00:16That's right, we're talking Andrew, Mountbatten, Windsor in just a bit.
00:20Unthinkable thought for me until now, but do you think this could mean ultimately the end of the monarchy?
00:26The King, Queen Camilla, Prince of Wales have all been heckled recently.
00:32The age of deference is now dead, Richard.
00:34Plus, ahead of Valentine's Day, we'll be taking a look at some of the royal family's most enduring relationships.
00:40Well, I suppose Harry managed it with Meghan Markle because he saw her on Instagram.
00:45And looking at how exactly one goes about dating a royal.
00:49If a royal does start dating, how long before you, in your professional life, get to hear about it?
00:58We're both back.
01:00You from Ireland, me from the UAE, where I have been on the ground covering Prince William in Saudi Arabia.
01:09And also Princess Eugenie has been in Qatar.
01:14And I thought it's been very interesting seeing in real time how the royals have had to deal with the
01:20Andrew allegations this week.
01:21For those of you who might have not been across, because it's been so fast moving in politics and royal
01:27world.
01:28Just before William started his three day trip to Saudi, his office, Kensington Palace, issued a statement on his and
01:37the Princess of Wales' behalf.
01:39This was the first time that William and Catherine have ever spoken in the kind of, you know, long running
01:45saga of Andrew and Geoffrey Epstein.
01:47They said that the Prince and Princess of Wales have been deeply concerned by the continuing revelations.
01:52Their thoughts remain focused on the victims.
01:54That was on Monday.
01:55I did think that was quite unprecedented when I got, when Lee, their comms chief, sent it to my phone
02:00about like half an hour before the embargo broke.
02:02And suddenly everybody wanted, you know, me to appear as a commentator on all the airways.
02:08And then, of course, that night, Andrew was referred to Thames Valley Police by the pressure group Republic.
02:13And that then rather forced the hand of Buckingham Palace, saying that the King has made clear in words and
02:19through unprecedented actions his profound concern and allegations, which continue to come to light and respect Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor's conduct.
02:26While the specific claims in question are for Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor to address, if we are approached by Thames Valley
02:32Police, we stand ready to support them as you would expect.
02:36That's pretty big, isn't it?
02:37Two words jumped out at me.
02:39One is they are saying the King has taken unprecedented actions, which seems a big offer, right?
02:46You wouldn't normally say that, would you?
02:48The King has done what the King is minded to do.
02:50Unprecedented actions.
02:51They recognise the seriousness and the gravity and the uniqueness of this problem.
02:54And the other one is continuing revelations in the Prince and Princes of Wales statement.
02:59They are making themselves available for further comment if further revelations come, which I suppose they will.
03:07On the ground, though, the journalists were not happy because the journalists felt, the PAC felt, that William needed to
03:15do more.
03:15He needed to say something on camera.
03:17He needed to start answering.
03:19An interview?
03:19Well, yeah, an interview.
03:21And he needed to start saying what he knew and when, as in not him personally, but the institution.
03:26The idea that you could have a one-size-fits-all response to these things, you can't do that anymore.
03:31Your grandma might have one thing, but actually there's more and more people thinking, no, no, we need more than
03:35that.
03:35No, and what was interesting was that it didn't stop.
03:38So Lee and the team at KP did it to try and get ahead of, effectively, the elephant in the
03:42room.
03:43In fact, I even texted him an emoji of an elephant and he was like, yeah, exactly.
03:47But they wanted to get ahead of it, so they felt they had to say something, but it didn't stop
03:51the questions.
03:51It was a British broadcast journalist from GB News who twice shouted at William on the Tuesday,
03:59Sir, you know, have the royal family done enough about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor?
04:04Now, either, I don't think William heard, and if he did hear, he just ignored it.
04:08But, you know, the king, Queen Camilla, Prince of Wales have all been heckled recently.
04:15Unthinkable thought for me until now.
04:17But do you think this could mean ultimately the end of the monarchy?
04:21As you have said, it really does feel that the bastion of the British institution, the government and the royal
04:29family,
04:30I mean, could Epstein bring down the royal family?
04:33I would have thought that was an unthinkable thought until recently.
04:38And if I step back for it, I think, no, they've weathered storms before.
04:42I'm not sure where this ranks among the storms they've weathered, but it's pretty high.
04:45It might get higher.
04:46But just lately, I've started to think, you know, it only works if we want it to work.
04:52And if the behaviour and the conduct of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and Sarah Ferguson,
04:57although, of course, they deny any wrongdoing, as we've said,
04:59if that story continues to unfold in the same way, maybe that does make the institution weaker.
05:06And the other thing I think about it, if you're Prince William and you're thinking,
05:09my destiny is that, really?
05:12Would there not perhaps be a point when you think, maybe this is not really what I want to do?
05:18Or what I would want for my kids to do?
05:20I don't know.
05:20For me, this week, we almost saw Epstein bring down a British Prime Minister.
05:26And I want to separate the institution and the people.
05:29So we're talking about the institution for a second.
05:31I do feel it's a bit of an existential crisis for the institution because we are seeing a real difference
05:38in how the government and how the royal family are treating it.
05:42You've got Starmer on the one hand.
05:43I mean, he sacked Mandelson, the British ambassador to the US last autumn.
05:47And then you've got the royal family.
05:49And the royal family have behaved in quite a different way.
05:51There's very little transparency, I would suggest.
05:54The king has de-princed Andrew and he's now a private citizen, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.
06:00You've got MPs of every political persuasion saying that, well, he should answer the US, you know, FBI.
06:09There's been two lots of attempts from the US authorities to try and question Andrew.
06:13That's come to nothing.
06:14And you've got MPs saying this isn't right.
06:17He should stand up and answer the questions asked of him.
06:21And this is a real, for me, sea change in how the government and the civil service that run our
06:27government
06:28are treating the monarchy.
06:29The age of deference is now dead, Richard, because the royals are just like you and I now.
06:35It's the way their comms is working.
06:37They're doing something new.
06:38A very interesting two separate but obviously coordinated statements from the prince and princess of Wales and from the king.
06:45I just noticed in the one from William and Kate, continuing revelations.
06:50Normally they're kind of drawing a line, aren't they?
06:52But they're actually opening up the possibility that they're going to have to address continuing allegations.
06:57This might get worse.
06:59And they're reserving what they're going to do in response to that.
07:02What options have they got?
07:04What more can they do?
07:05Of course, Andrew denies any wrongdoing.
07:07I mean, also, I'm told, Richard, by my sources, that he is in complete denial.
07:13He thinks he's one of the victims.
07:15He thinks that he's been put upon.
07:17I know, I know.
07:17For those of you that can't see, if you're listening, Richard's just rolling his eyes.
07:21But exactly.
07:22It's a classic thing, isn't it?
07:23It's sort of, it's not just victim blaming.
07:26It's imagining that you are the victim.
07:28I mean, it's the absolute embodiment of entitlement.
07:30Here he is.
07:31Not taking responsibility for it.
07:32He's behaving like a 19th century prince, but he's been caught in the culture and media glare of the 21st
07:39century Me Too movement.
07:40I have to say, of course, that he denies all these allegations, and if that's the case, then, of course,
07:44he's entitled to feel victimised.
07:46But if he does, if he really does think that he's done nothing wrong, and I know Newsnight is a
07:51good example of why he shouldn't do this, then he should absolutely sit down with the US and, indeed, the
07:55UK authorities and tell them everything he knows and saw.
07:59But I was quite surprised, actually.
08:01Lee sent us all a statement saying, this is what the Prince and Princess of Wales, you know, on behalf
08:06of them.
08:08Personally, Richard, I didn't feel it went far enough.
08:12Right, well, a change of mood, change of tone, because after the break, we're going to be looking for Valentine's
08:18Day at Live.
08:20Now, question for you in the break.
08:22What was the shortest marriage in the history of the British royal family?
08:27We'll find out soon.
08:34Welcome back to Catching Up With Royals.
08:35We left you with a question, Emily.
08:38Which is the shortest royal marriage on record, do you know?
08:41No, I don't.
08:45Well, we have to go back nearly 500 years, because it's Anne of Cleves, who was the fourth wife of
08:53Henry VIII.
08:54She was.
08:56Do you remember, they sent a picture of her over, and he said, all right, and then she came over,
09:00and he described her as a fat Flanders mare.
09:02Yes!
09:02Which is not very flattering.
09:03And I think, wasn't it Hans Holbein was the artist, I think, of the portrait he'd gone, he'd been sent
09:09by Henry to go and take a picture of her.
09:12And I bet Henry wished for Instagram then, but he didn't have Instagram since the 16th century.
09:17And I mean, I can imagine that Hans Holbein got in a bit of trouble, because when Anne of Cleves
09:21eventually came over, her, apparently, her poor face didn't match the picture.
09:27Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky one, isn't it? What a difficult commission that would be.
09:31I know.
09:31Can I see what you're doing, Mr Holbein? Well, if you don't mind, Your Old Highness, maybe just, you know.
09:36Anyway, it was six months.
09:38Six months.
09:39But I mean, it really kind of, like, reminds you, doesn't it, how marriage for royalty was a really transactional
09:47affair.
09:47I mean, famously, Henry had six wives, and whilst he might have, you know, got rid of overthrowing the Pope
09:56for lust with Anne Boleyn, actually, quite a few of his marriages were for dynastic purposes.
10:03Yeah, and that's why royals were often married off to each other in many times when they were sort of
10:07children.
10:08Yes, especially the women.
10:09And also it was a great way of acquiring wealth, wasn't it?
10:11I mean, so many Tudor families became enormously wealthy through strategic marriages, and even now I think aristocrats still factor
10:20that stuff in when they're thinking about what they want for their kids.
10:23Really?
10:23Yeah, I think so advantageous marriages are seen as, because you've got to be able to do it, I guess,
10:28and that's why the royal thing is so important.
10:29If you think about what you have to do if you are a queen or a princess, if you've got
10:35some idea about what's coming, it probably makes for a better choice.
10:38But just because you're an aristocrat, right, does that necessarily mean you're going to do the job any better?
10:43Because, I mean, Princess Diana arguably changed the face of modern monarchy, but she almost kind of broke it because
10:50she did it in such a different way to her husband, who, of course, was the heir.
10:56You wonder, don't you, how it seems not a distant world, the world of a daughter of an earl, say,
11:02from the royal family, but actually in some way the royal family is different from everybody else, aren't they?
11:06So maybe it was quite a...
11:07Although, where did Princess Diana grow up?
11:12Sandringham.
11:13Yeah.
11:13So I think, you know, they would have been around it, if not of it.
11:17I don't know.
11:18Power couples, modern power couples.
11:21Modern ones.
11:21Yeah, from the royals, what do you reckon?
11:24Have you got a favourite?
11:25Well, I do, but it's not one I would offer as an example to emulate, and that would be Edward
11:30VIII and Mrs Simpson.
11:31Oh, really?
11:31Well, it was just such a terrible moment in the British monarchy, such a sort of devastating thing that the
11:40king had to abdicate to marry the woman he loved.
11:42And it was just such a fascinating story.
11:44It tells us, I think, in a way, created the modern monarchy far more than anything else.
11:48Are you actually telling me you're an incurable romantic then?
11:51No, I'm not.
11:51I'm the opposite, in fact.
11:53I'm an incurable sceptic, probably.
11:56It went off like a depth charge, and the constitutional after-effects of that match were hard to overstate.
12:04And also, there's something so tragic, in a way, about them ending up living in Paris, and not a king,
12:11and yet once was a king, not a royal highness, and yet a royal highness.
12:16And all the bad blood between them, and, you know, the fact that it meant that George VI had to
12:21become George VI and didn't want to do it.
12:23No.
12:24So, okay, so is that a power couple, but an impotent couple?
12:28It's what can...
12:30I don't know.
12:30The other thing about it, of course, it dazzled the world, didn't it?
12:33I mean, when Edward VIII was the Prince of Wales, he was the most eligible bachelor in the world.
12:37I think he liked the ladies.
12:38I think he liked the ladies.
12:39And then the one he ended up with, of course, was the one that cost him his crown.
12:42So, there's something about that that is so...
12:45It's like a story, isn't it?
12:46It's like a Greek tragedy.
12:47I really like Charles and Camilla, because I think that, despite everything, Camilla has still retained her sense of humour,
12:58and she is such a rock.
13:02It is actually quite an enduring love story.
13:06I mean, their relationship has lasted, I think, 50 years, and, you know, some marriages don't even last, well, like
13:15Anna Cleves, don't even last five months.
13:16And they're very, very sweet with each other.
13:21There is a thing where you do, regardless of anything else, a part of you just think, oh, thank goodness,
13:27if people finally manage to sort themselves out and get happy together.
13:30Yeah.
13:30And I think she really does make him happy.
13:32I mean, when I've been on tour with them, I remember when I was in New Zealand, he doesn't eat
13:38lunch, or he does now, but then for most of his working life, he hasn't eaten lunch.
13:43He's not eating lunch?
13:44Yeah, he doesn't eat lunch.
13:45You're a member of the royal family, and you don't have lunch?
13:48What's the point?
13:49Well, I know.
13:50I think it would be very easy as a royal to overeat.
13:54Everywhere you go, you're being offered tea, you're being offered cake, you're being offered alcohol, you're being offered canapes, you're
13:59being offered delicious three-core Michelin-starved meals.
14:02So I think Charles has always been very careful what he eats, and therefore he doesn't eat lunch.
14:07He does his military exercises every morning to keep fit, like Prince Philip, and then he doesn't eat lunch.
14:12But when I've seen them, I mean, sometimes Charles can get a bit grumpy.
14:17Sorry, sir.
14:18Sorry, sir.
14:19He can get a bit grumpy.
14:19And I remember we were flying on a private jet, on a PJ.
14:25A PJ?
14:25In a PJ.
14:26Not pajamas, but private jet.
14:27Not in our pajamas, on a PJ, private jet.
14:31And Charles, I can't remember, had we left, timekeeping's very important, and we'd left a bit late, or he was
14:37worried about, I can't quite remember now about the time.
14:39And I just saw, obviously I was at the back of the plane.
14:41It was only a small plane, but I was at the back, obviously, where I should be.
14:44They were seats 1A and 1B.
14:46And I could just see Camilla, she went over the gangway and was just sort of gently, verbally stroking him.
14:55And I spoke to one of their very senior members of staff, and he told me, he said,
15:00Emily, she can just sort the boss.
15:03They call Charles the boss.
15:04She can just sort him and mollify him in a way that no one else can.
15:11And a few words from her, a little joke, a little bon mo, and she can turn his humour around.
15:18And that is so important, I think, both for their public and their personal relationship.
15:24I'm not at all surprised that, you know, royals can be bad-tempered or peevish, because they're just, the kind
15:30of frustrations of their life must be so awful.
15:33Well, I think, actually, they love it when things go wrong.
15:35And when you sometimes see, I remember at the Braemar Games in the Highlands, there was something went wrong.
15:41Someone dropped a caber or someone.
15:43You should be so careful with those cabers.
15:44You've got to be careful with the cabers.
15:46Someone tossed it wrongly, maybe.
15:49And Charles was then Prince of Wales with the Duchess of Cornwall, or the Duchess of Rothsey, as she then
15:57was.
15:57And they just caught each other's eye, and they were just giggling.
16:01They're really trying to stop laughing, take it all seriously, because they love it when things go wrong.
16:08Because there's this sort of apocryphal saying that all members of the royal family think that every place they go
16:14to smells of paint.
16:15Because everyone gets so stressed and worried when they get a royal visit.
16:19Everything has to look amazing.
16:20So everything gets a paint job.
16:22Do you remember what I thought would be a weird thing for the late Queen?
16:25Towards the end of her reign, people stopped clapping.
16:29Whenever she turned around, applause, applause, applause, and people stopped clapping.
16:31Why?
16:32Because they're holding up their phone.
16:33And you can't clap if you're holding a phone in one hand.
16:37And I wondered if that must have felt a bit weird.
16:39They hated it.
16:40I remember a courtier saying to me that they hated the rise of mobile phones.
16:45They didn't like being filmed all the time because, exactly as you say, it got in the way of the
16:51interaction.
16:52But also, if you're holding up a phone, not only can you not clap, you can't talk to the member
16:58of the royal family.
16:59And getting snapped and papped all the time, they hated it.
17:03For their security detail, everyone in a crowd holding up an arm might be quite an uneasy.
17:10Threatening.
17:10Well, in a way, it might be sort of tricky for them.
17:12Yeah, I think so.
17:13So, I mean, the police protection officers, the PPOs, are very, very good at sort of spotting, they call it,
17:19spotting the crowd and making sure that, I mean, but there's only, you know, intelligence will only take you so
17:26far.
17:27But I think that meeting members of the public, obviously, is a very important part of the royal job.
17:31But here's the revenge.
17:31How on earth do you go on a date?
17:34How on earth do you woo someone if everyone's filming you, everyone knows who you are, you have no private
17:39life, and the media's all over you?
17:42Well, I guess the answer to that, wait for it, is you go to university.
17:48Oh, cool.
17:50Because if we look at someone like Lady Louise Windsor, now I know that you know that Lady Louise Mountbatten
17:56-Windsor, to give her her full title, is the daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.
18:01She's currently at university in St. Andrews, and she is courting.
18:05She's courting a young man, a fellow university student.
18:08But because she's at university, a bit like William and Kate before her, same university, St. Andrews, it's kind of
18:15protected.
18:16The press have, there's under, you know, the press leave them alone because they're still in education.
18:24Occasionally, if he goes to watch her carriage driving with Sophie, there might be pictures of him.
18:30Carriage driving?
18:31Oh, yeah, Louise has taken after her grandpa, Prince Philip.
18:34Kind of a big ask on a first date is, why don't you come and watch me carriage driving, a
18:38habit I acquired from my grandfather, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh.
18:43Do you know what I mean?
18:43I know, but I think, I think in the modern age, you can probably court in exactly the same way.
18:52What, hinge?
18:53I reckon you could.
18:54Could you have a royal hinge?
18:56Grinder.
18:57Now, there's a thought.
18:58I imagine you'd do it through a pseudonym, wouldn't you?
19:00You wouldn't have a real identity.
19:01Or perhaps you would, I don't know.
19:03Well, Harry used to be on Facebook.
19:06As himself?
19:07No, under a pseudonym.
19:09In fact, funny story, actually from your neck of the woods.
19:11Harry used to be on Facebook under the name of Spike Wells.
19:16And there's actually quite a famous jazz musician called Spike Wells from the Brighton-Lewis area.
19:26And he had to send a cease and desist letter to Kensington Palace to say,
19:35will you please tell Prince Harry to stop impersonating me because this is actually my name?
19:41And stop impersonating me on Facebook.
19:43But I mean, when I talk to my nephews and nieces and younger people, they're all dating on apps now,
19:48right?
19:48But pictures and biographies and describe yourself in a sentence sort of thing.
19:53How do you do that if you are Lady XYZ or the Duke of...
19:58Well, I suppose Harry managed it.
20:00Prince Harry managed it, didn't he?
20:01With Meghan Markle.
20:03Because he saw her on Instagram.
20:06Famously, he tells the story himself that he saw her.
20:09They never revealed a friend, but I think it was Violet von Weston that halts.
20:12So somebody said all this.
20:15She was with Violet.
20:16But there's this filter that you can use on Instagram where you can put little dog ears.
20:20I mean, I know it all sounds...
20:22Yeah, I'm with you.
20:23Harry was flicking through his mate's Instagram and there was Meghan and Violet with the dog ears.
20:30And he was like, who is that?
20:32Who's that lovely woman with the ears of a dog?
20:34Yeah, yeah.
20:35Yeah, exactly.
20:36And then he got Meghan's number and pursued her with texts for dates.
20:41So actually, that's a very modern way, isn't it?
20:43If a royal does start dating, how long before you, in your professional life, get to hear about it?
20:49Generally speaking, not long.
20:53I mean, with Harry, it was about three months.
20:56They met in the July and then it was Halloween when the story broke about him and Meghan.
21:05Obviously, with William and not just Catherine, who he dated at St. Andrews,
21:13he'd had a couple of earlier girlfriends.
21:16They weren't really written about, partly because he was at university and so kind of protected.
21:25With Kate, it was a skiing holiday that he had gone on with her and they were pictured together,
21:35which was why kind of the hairs were set running.
21:38So I think it kind of depends.
21:39I mean, but I guess my inference to your question is that they don't have long, do they?
21:45No.
21:45When it's still quite private.
21:47And it's really hard.
21:47I think it must be incredibly hard to try and conduct a relationship in the full glare of the public
21:54gaze.
21:54And also, if you're trying to keep it quiet, how very difficult to do that too?
21:58Because, I mean, a cab driver or somebody in the shop or a travel agent goes,
22:01oh, that's interesting, and could phone you up, right?
22:04They could, yeah, definitely.
22:06I mean, we did get tip-offs when, like Harry and Meghan used to go to the theatre and, you
22:12know,
22:12an actress, she liked to go and see shows when they were still living in London.
22:15We used to get tip-offs from the public.
22:17They used to get pictures taken, mobile phone pictures, put on social media.
22:22Better journalists than me were brilliant at super sleuthing, finding all these things.
22:27And so, I think it means, I mean, William and Kate still can go on dates, for instance.
22:35With each other?
22:36With each other.
22:37And, indeed, they take the children.
22:39I mean, I think recently, Kate...
22:40Date night?
22:41Date night, yeah.
22:42You're on date night.
22:43Yeah, William and Kate, actually.
22:45There's a local pub near their Anmer Hall home in Norfolk.
22:51And they used to have, when the kids, when they were still living in Norfolk,
22:53and the kids were really small, I think it was every Tuesday night or every Thursday night,
22:58they used to go there for date night, just the two of them, just to kind of...
23:01And the locals just completely left them alone.
23:04A packet of crisps, game of dominoes.
23:05Yeah, no, genuinely.
23:07Sometimes they didn't even have food.
23:08They would just go and have...
23:09He'd have a pint of cider or a pint of beer.
23:12She'd have a small white wine, just to kind of have a chat, be normal.
23:17It's funny, when you do hear about the times when they were happiest,
23:21especially their married lives, it's before they were...
23:23Like with William and Catherine, it was when they were in Anglesey, wasn't it?
23:27Yeah.
23:27When you're kind of not in the middle of things and not having to do all that heavy lifting.
23:32No, absolutely.
23:33I think that's maybe when they felt they could be the most real.
23:36The Queen and Prince Philip when they were first married.
23:38In Malta.
23:39In Malta, yeah.
23:39If you want to continue catching up with the Royals, hopefully you're watching this on a Thursday.
23:45We come out every Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
23:49And don't forget, you can watch us on Saturday on 5 or stream us on 5.
23:56Now.
23:56Yes.
23:57Richard.
23:58Yes.
23:58I've got a question for you.
23:59I'm excited.
24:00I love questions.
24:01I know you do.
24:02You'll probably know the answer.
24:03How many royal weddings have there been in Westminster Abbey?
24:10Oh, millions I'd have thought.
24:12We'll tell you after the break.
24:20I asked the lovely Richard how many royal weddings he thought there'd been at Westminster Abbey.
24:25Now, did you know the answer?
24:28Well.
24:29Did you?
24:29Well, I thought it must be dozens.
24:32I did say millions.
24:32It must be dozens and dozens over the centuries.
24:35Well, this surprised me.
24:38Sixteen.
24:38Really?
24:39Sixteen royal weddings at Westminster Abbey.
24:41I guess because some of the biggies, like Charles and Diana got married at St. Paul's.
24:46And actually, I think if you go back into the kind of history books, a lot of weddings were not
24:52the big royal spectacle that they are now.
24:54They were quite small affairs.
24:56Maybe it's St. James's Palace or.
24:58Yeah.
24:59I mean, I think the only would have.
25:00It's like royal baptisms tend to be done at home.
25:02Yeah.
25:03Yeah.
25:04Or, well, I mean, not at.
25:04Well, at home.
25:05At home.
25:05But in a place of worshipping.
25:07Exactly.
25:07And I guess, Neil, when you were doing dynastic marriages, I mean, sometimes they had proxies, didn't they, stand in
25:12for it?
25:13Yeah.
25:14Because they were, I don't know, eight years old and in Bohemia.
25:18Harry and Meghan's, we went to St. George's.
25:21They got married in Windsor Castle and St. George's Chapel.
25:24And I remember, I was actually in Windsor Great Park when I got the communique saying that there were going
25:31to be no journalists actually in St. George's Chapel.
25:34Now, for William and Kate's wedding, we were in Westminster Abbey.
25:39It was a press gallery.
25:40Yeah.
25:40We're kind of up in the gods or like right at the back.
25:43But there.
25:43But there.
25:44And we could, you know, there were screens and stuff and we could see it.
25:47But Harry, he was so angry with all of us, he banned us from the chapel.
25:52In fact, we had to fight really hard to have one member from the press association actually in the chapel.
25:58And we were in the Undercroft in the Upper Ward in Windsor Castle, watching it all on a TV screen.
26:06All that way.
26:07It was quite a stressful day.
26:08But, you know, a nice day.
26:10A nice day.
26:12Well, I mean, royal weddings are complicated things, aren't they?
26:15Because the whole, it's not just.
26:17It's not just about love.
26:18No.
26:18It's not just about the love.
26:20Do you have a favourite complicated royal wedding?
26:22Or a royal wedding that didn't happen because it all got kind of thwarted for dynastic reasons or legal reasons?
26:27Well, I always enjoy learning and reading about the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth I.
26:36Everyone's favourite monarch.
26:37Everyone's favourite monarch.
26:38Like, well, not everyone's favourite monarch, but, I mean, she's a behemoth, isn't she, of history?
26:45And she famously was the Virgin Queen.
26:49She never got married.
26:50But she had a lifelong relationship, friendship with Robert Dudley.
26:56And, but she never got married.
26:59Now, she probably couldn't have married Dudley.
27:02I think she made him the Earl of Leicester.
27:04I think she created him as the Earl of Leicester, but even so, he wasn't royal.
27:09Well, that would have given him a reason to be around, to be in court.
27:13Well, exactly.
27:13Because she ennobled him.
27:14But really, as a Queen regnant, she had to make a political and dynastic marriage.
27:20But, of course, had she married Archduke Ferdinand, or, like, one of the Habsburgs, or had she married whomever else
27:30might have been on the political scene, then that would have put someone else's nose out of joint.
27:35So if she'd have made a decision to marry, that might have, you know, put the French king's nose out
27:42of joint, or the Scottish king's.
27:43So by not marrying, she kept everyone on their toes.
27:47And an added complication, of course.
27:49It'd be about a time of huge religious turbulence.
27:51Yeah.
27:51Was England going to be a Catholic country?
27:53Had it been under Mary, returned to the old management, as it were, or was it going to be a
27:57Protestant country?
27:58And that took a while to settle down in her reign.
28:00But, you know, there was a high-stakes game in those days, wasn't there?
28:03There's a lovely poem by Ursula Fanthorpe, in which she talks about Tudor states were all being portrayed with big
28:08roughs on, as kind of neck protectors.
28:10Because they all kind of knew.
28:11Keep your neck, keep your head on.
28:13Keep your neck protected.
28:15But I think that's the thing, but I think Elizabeth was very, Elizabeth I was very canny, because she used
28:20her virginity and her femininity more adroitly by not getting married.
28:27And I personally, I mean, I guess we'll never know, I don't think, I'm sure there are greater scholars than
28:32me, certainly, definitely, who have considered the question of whether she ever consummates a relationship.
28:38But it would have been very, very risky.
28:42It would have been very risky for Elizabeth I to do so, because, of course, if you bore a child
28:49outside marriage, it was illegitimate.
28:51And it didn't really matter whether you're the monarch or no, because Henry VIII had an illegitimate son, Henry Fitzsimmons,
28:57but he was obviously not allowed anywhere near the throne.
29:00And it made you, if you're an illegitimate child, more likely to be killed.
29:04And let us not forget, Elizabeth I's mother was Anne Boleyn.
29:08Yeah.
29:09And she discovered that the accusation of having messed around when she was married to King Henry VIII was a
29:15very costly thing.
29:16I am not a Tudor historian, but I personally don't think she was unfaithful to Henry.
29:24No, I think it's highly unlikely.
29:26But that wasn't the point.
29:28That's not the point.
29:28She was surplus to requirements because he'd moved on to Jane Seymour.
29:32Yeah.
29:32And I think also with Henry VIII, there's a speculation that he had had a jousting accident, hadn't he, and
29:37that his mental health was badly affected by it.
29:40You know, he'd got into a habit then of wives were expedient.
29:44And Anne Boleyn, well, ended up getting beheaded.
29:48Yeah.
29:49And wasn't the only one.
29:51No.
29:52Catherine Howard.
29:53Yeah.
29:54I mean, in our own days, there have been people who had to choose in a very romantic way, putting
29:59it between live and duty.
30:01Princess Margaret, the late Queen's sister, and group captain Peter Teller, who was in the Aquarii, I think, wasn't he?
30:06He was, yes, her father.
30:07And she fell in love with a dashing airman.
30:10And they had an affair.
30:12She famously brushed a piece of lint from his tunic outside West Windsor Abbey or something, didn't she?
30:17That's right.
30:17And that's how the press cottoned on.
30:20Cottoned on.
30:21Cottoned on.
30:22Do you like to see what I did there?
30:23But unfortunately for Margaret, he was divorced.
30:26And of course, in the 1950s, it was completely unconscionable for a royal princess to marry a divorcee.
30:35We have to put that, I mean, as we said earlier, we have to put that in the context, obviously,
30:39of Edward VIII and Wallace Simpson.
30:41I mean, he wasn't allowed to marry a divorcee.
30:43So then you couldn't have his niece.
30:45It also would require the consent of the Queen.
30:47And the Queen was the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, which at that time didn't allow people to
30:51remarriage divorcees.
30:53So you can see that that was, if you're going to do that, then you need to walk away from
30:57your royal life.
30:59The narrative is that she was forbidden by the Queen.
31:04But I sort of, I personally understood that actually she was given the choice to effectively renounce her titles and
31:12crucially the money.
31:14Yeah.
31:15And she said no.
31:17My sense of Princess Margaret was that she wasn't someone who was really designed for a life that was less
31:21than five star.
31:23No.
31:24I think that's a good description, a bit like the prince formerly known as Andrew.
31:28Well, I don't know.
31:30I couldn't possibly comment.
31:31But of course, Princess Margaret then went on to marry Anthony Armstrong Jones, later Lord Snowden.
31:36And unfortunately, that marriage didn't turn out so well.
31:38No.
31:401952 is only 70 years ago, which in the grand scheme of things is quite a short space of time.
31:46But there was absolutely no problem with Prince Harry marrying a divorcee.
31:51Because of course, Meghan was divorced from her first husband.
31:53And it's easy, I think, to forget how seminal it was for the late Queen, Queen Elizabeth, about a British
32:03member of the royal family marrying an American divorcee.
32:07And if it did sort of give her any trigger warnings, the late Queen, she certainly didn't show it.
32:13I mean, I guess a lot had happened as we kind of gradually got used to the idea of Prince
32:17Charles, as he was then, and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, as she was then.
32:20As that relationship became more normalised, then you thought, oh, well, this can work.
32:24And also, I think, you know, I think one of the roles of the royal family is to reflect society
32:31and culture at the time, at our time, whatever that time may be.
32:35And obviously, now, quite rightly, we're a very inclusive society.
32:40The Church of England has changed a lot.
32:43I mean, I could definitely see a member of the royal family coming out publicly as gay, and it'd be
32:48absolutely fine.
32:49No, it would bat an eyelid.
32:51But could you imagine a sort of, well, you can't do it with the logos of the church, even rules
32:54don't permit,
32:55but a sort of same-sex marriage in St George's Chapel, Windsor, one day.
32:59That'd be lovely.
33:00That really would be, you know, times changing.
33:03William and Catherine's relationship was allowed quite a lot of privacy at the start when they were at St Andrews.
33:08But obviously, when they left university, that was a bit more tricky.
33:13And actually, I remember going to a nightclub in Fulham, where I know those were the days.
33:19You had all the racy places.
33:20Those were the days, Richard, just off the King's Road.
33:23And it was a basement, subterranean nightclub, where a bottle of champagne was probably only, at that point, about 30
33:32quid.
33:32But I remember a newly single, Prince William, was at this nightclub.
33:39And I and a very foxy friend managed to talk our way into the nightclub.
33:45And it was full of kind of Blues and Royals officers.
33:50William was in the army at this point.
33:52He'd just split up from Catherine.
33:54They had left university.
33:56Someone said he was at the club.
33:57And I was like, oh, yeah, whatever.
33:59I was there with my foxy friend.
34:01And we were getting bought drinks left, right and centre, which was lovely.
34:05Those were the days.
34:06Anyway, it was about one o'clock in the morning.
34:08And suddenly, I mean, I don't know about you, but I go to bed.
34:11I'm in bed by 9pm these days.
34:13But so those were the days.
34:14Anyway, there was a really big song at the time.
34:1850 Cent Inder Club.
34:20And suddenly there was this kind of like rush of energy and air and a very tall, good-looking
34:28man with a full head of blonde hair erupted onto the dance floor and started jumping up
34:35and down to 50 Cent Inder Club and literally rocking the nightclub.
34:39And it was Prince William.
34:41And so everyone kind of, all the girls were like, oh, and all the guys were like, oh,
34:45my goodness, because he'd been in a private bit, I think, drinking with mates.
34:49But what was so extraordinary, I mean, it was quite funny watching Prince William jump
34:53up and down to Inder Club.
34:54But what was so funny.
34:55Can he move?
34:56Pardon?
34:56Can he move?
34:57Yeah, yeah.
34:58Yeah.
34:58The boy can dance.
35:00Yeah, I was quite impressed, actually.
35:01He had some sense of rhythm.
35:02But what was quite funny after was that there was just dance music, you know, cheesy dance.
35:07And then at one point, quite a few people on the dance floor started doing ballroom dancing
35:13to the club hits of the time.
35:16That's so weird.
35:17And my slightly alcohol-addled memory tells me that it was called windmilling.
35:22I don't know why, you know, other recollections may vary.
35:25But that was my memory of clubbing Prince William.
35:29And then my mate who I was with, he started dancing with her.
35:32And I slightly drunkenly was taking some pictures and then the police protection officer came
35:40and had a word with me and said, could I stop, please?
35:43I was like, yeah, of course.
35:45Did he want you to delete those pictures?
35:48I think he was just really nice about it and just said, can you just stop?
35:51Right.
35:51I didn't.
35:52I didn't delete them.
35:53Okay.
35:54Show me next week.
35:54I'll bring them next week.
35:56Excellent.
35:57Is that the only time you've danced with the Royal?
36:00Well, it's not the only time I've danced.
36:03I know.
36:03I love a bit of dancing.
36:04I've done a little dance with the King.
36:07Now he can dance, King Charles.
36:10Yeah.
36:10And he loves music.
36:11Yeah.
36:12He loves music.
36:12Have you ever danced with the Royal?
36:13I don't think I have.
36:15No.
36:15No.
36:16Well, if I tried to, they'd run a mile.
36:18I'd probably be shot by the close protection squad.
36:21No, you wouldn't.
36:22Well, Camilla loves Strictly.
36:24Well, yes.
36:25Well, the Queen watched Strictly too, I was told.
36:27And voted.
36:28There was a story, and I was sad actually,
36:30and apparently it was going to happen, I think,
36:32but COVID got in the way.
36:33They were going to host an edition of Strictly at Buckingham Palace.
36:37Really?
36:38Yes.
36:39In the ballroom.
36:40And that would have been brilliant.
36:41I mean, forget Blackpool.
36:43The ballroom of Buckingham Palace.
36:45One of those things you could see,
36:46I could just see how that would get derailed
36:48before the final green light.
36:49Great idea, but you're just sort of thinking,
36:51no, maybe not.
36:52Really?
36:52Maybe not.
36:53Why would it get derailed?
36:55Security?
36:57Or just would they think it's a bit naff?
36:58Harry Greville Horwood just did a nought,
37:01and it looked like a judgment on the monarchy
37:03rather than a judgment on a dance.
37:05I don't know.
37:05All that stuff needs to be,
37:07well, you're too young to remember
37:08the It's a Royal Knockout fiasco,
37:10but I remember that.
37:11Time for a break now,
37:12but before we do,
37:13here is your question,
37:15and it's this.
37:16In medieval times,
37:17how would a monarch know
37:18if a lady was interested in him?
37:22Oh, not the other way around.
37:24No, no, no, no, no, no.
37:25This is Lady on King.
37:26She wanted to show her favour.
37:28Okay.
37:28Yeah.
37:29Back after this.
37:36Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals,
37:37and the question we left you was,
37:39how would a lady in medieval,
37:40or indeed early modern Europe,
37:43express a desire and interest,
37:45a romantic, erotic, sexual interest in monarch?
37:47Well, the token of the glove.
37:49She would give the monarch a glove,
37:51and that would be a sort of come-hither gesture.
37:54Not a subtle one, really, is it?
37:56No.
37:57Whack off your glove,
37:58and rather it might be misinterpreted
38:00as throwing down a gauntlet.
38:01Exactly.
38:02And also, surely,
38:03if you're in the court,
38:06and there's a single prince,
38:09or the king is single,
38:11I mean, surely you don't have to express your interest,
38:14isn't it up to him?
38:14Well, maybe the king isn't single.
38:16Oh.
38:16You see?
38:17Maybe you would be a mistress of the king.
38:19Well, it's time for our viewer questions,
38:21so let's see what's been popped in the royal box this week.
38:24The question is,
38:25Simon emails in to royals at spirit-studios.com.
38:28Please do email.
38:29And says,
38:30do the royals ever get to cook their own food?
38:32And if so,
38:33how do they determine who gets a private chef or not?
38:36Are they able to make requests?
38:39Well, I think they do,
38:40because I think what you do want sometimes
38:42is to have just a...
38:43I mean, I find that some people who live that kind of life,
38:46they have the sort of big dining room stuff
38:48and the big kitchen
38:48and the people who cook their food,
38:49but they tend to have a private kitchen,
38:51a private dining room too,
38:52where you could just have a night in and watch telly.
38:54Yeah, actually,
38:55I think the royals are very,
38:56can be just as normal as us.
38:57I mean, I remember that Harry used to send out for takeaway
39:00when he lived at Kensington Palace.
39:02He used to get his,
39:04he would order the takeaway
39:05and then he'd get his PPO's,
39:06police protection officers,
39:07to go and pick it up.
39:09Oh, fun job for them, eh?
39:10And also...
39:11How many times can you go to Nando's in a week?
39:12Well, I know, I know.
39:14And when I...
39:15Well, I mean, probably seven nights
39:17if you're Harry,
39:18if you're Prince Harry.
39:20Actually, I've...
39:20It is Nando's, isn't it?
39:22It is Nando's.
39:23Or maybe he'd be into some...
39:24Yeah, he liked burgers as well.
39:26Oh no, I'll tell you what, his favourite.
39:28There's a posh sandwich shop near Buckingham Palace
39:31and one of the members of staff told me
39:33that Harry's favourite sandwich
39:35was like a cheese and ham,
39:38double kind of croque monsieur type thing.
39:41I mean, calories, calorie central.
39:43Young lad, full of beans.
39:45Full of beans, running around.
39:46I'm not sure his 40-year-old self
39:48could quite cope the California lifestyle now.
39:51No, it's probably sushi now, isn't it?
39:52Sushi.
39:52That's all they eat in California.
39:53Yeah, sushi.
39:54Sushi.
39:55Avocado, for example.
39:56I have seen Harry in a supermarket.
40:00What, doing shopping?
40:01Actually, yes.
40:02In the Waitrose on Kensington High Street.
40:04I actually saw him doing his own shopping.
40:07And he used to quite like doing his own shopping.
40:09Other people go,
40:11oh my goodness, it's Prince Harry.
40:14And then you see them sort of thinking,
40:16am I, should I go and,
40:18should I go and talk to them?
40:19Can I go and ask for an autograph?
40:20But there's always one or two police protection officers
40:22just to kind of act as a bit of a variant.
40:24I saw Queen Margaret of Denmark browsing in a bookshop.
40:27Did you?
40:28Yeah.
40:29Whereabouts, in the UK or in Denmark?
40:30Hatchards and Piccadilly.
40:32Yeah.
40:32Oh, okay.
40:33Having a good old look at the bookshop.
40:34A lady-in-waiting with her, I think.
40:35Or maybe it was an unlikely-looking security guard.
40:39I don't know.
40:39Okay, but going back to royals and cooking,
40:43Catherine, the Princess of Wales,
40:44and I have talked cooking in India.
40:47We were in Bhutan.
40:49Amazing country, Richard.
40:51I know, I'd love to go.
40:52You'd love it.
40:53Himalayan kingdom.
40:55Landlocked.
40:55It was quite scary.
40:57Only seven pilots in the world could fly us in,
40:59but I kind of figured that we were on a plane
41:01with William and Kate,
41:01and I figured that, you know,
41:02hopefully we should be quite safe.
41:04William wasn't flying,
41:05so that was probably a good thing.
41:06Sorry, William.
41:07Your flying is brilliant, really.
41:09Anyway, we were in Bhutan,
41:10and Kate and I were talking about,
41:11she really likes Indian food.
41:12So she cooks Indian food from scratch,
41:15but she did admit to me that occasionally
41:17she does like an Indian takeaway.
41:20I bet they go to like Poshwa, like Dishoom, though,
41:23rather than the star of Bengal around the corner.
41:26I don't know.
41:26Yeah, I think maybe there's a room for both.
41:29But then if you are, I mean,
41:31I can't imagine Princess Margaret would have known how to boil an egg.
41:34No.
41:34So for that kind of royal,
41:36if you're living in Kensington Palace,
41:37wherever it might be,
41:38would there just be a sort of chef on call,
41:40do you think, if you wanted to?
41:41Yes.
41:41So all members of the royal family have got people who cook for them.
41:44The king has got 22 members of chefs,
41:4822 chefs,
41:49and most of whom follow him around from Windsor to Clarence House
41:55to Bourke Hall to Sandringham.
41:57So he'll have his hand-picked team, his brigade.
42:01Yeah, his brigade,
42:01and some of them stay permanently.
42:04I mean, Buckingham Palace is still effectively closed for business
42:08because we're very close to the end of this 10-year refurbishment of BP.
42:12So some of them have sort of stayed at Windsor
42:14because that's where the state banquets are.
42:16That's where Charles spends quite a lot of his time.
42:18That's where entertainment is, entertaining is.
42:20That's where a lot of investitures are now in Windsor.
42:23And those members of staff who stay
42:27will do cooking for William and Catherine, for instance.
42:30Harry and Meghan used to get food sent down
42:33from the Windsor Castle kitchens on the little golf buggies.
42:36Oh, really?
42:36Yes.
42:37But if you had a foodie royal
42:40and you had a sort of favourite chef,
42:42you'd want that chef to kind of go around with you, wouldn't you?
42:44It might be a tough job for the chef to keep up with the customer.
42:47It is, but I think what used to happen,
42:49I mean, I know one of the late Queen's chefs,
42:54I think he lives in America now,
42:56but he's talked a lot about every week
42:59he would create a list of menus for the whole week,
43:03taking into account whether it's a state dinner
43:05or whether they were going out or whatever,
43:07a list of meals for the whole week.
43:09And then she would sign it off.
43:11And the king does the same.
43:13He has a list of what he's going to be eating for the whole week.
43:16And he says, yes, no, can I have this instead, et cetera, et cetera.
43:19And with William and Catherine,
43:22they actually, she likes to cook, as I said,
43:24and also she likes to bake with the children.
43:26And I think she wants to make sure
43:28that the children can all three of them can cook.
43:30It's that fine line, isn't it,
43:32between bringing up your children as normal human beings
43:36and also not wanting them to become sort of too entitled.
43:41I have to feel like my own chef, actually.
43:42That would be amazing, wouldn't it?
43:43The Goring Hotel in London together,
43:45they have it on the menu, eggs drum kimbo,
43:47which was the Queen Mother's favourite thing.
43:49And it happened because she stayed an extra day somewhere
43:52and there was nothing in the kitchen.
43:53The chef made up this dish and it was a triumph.
43:56And I have it, I've had it.
43:57It's absolutely delicious.
43:58I spent my wedding night at the Goring.
44:01Did you have eggs drum kimbo?
44:02And I had eggs drum kimbo the next day.
44:04Delicious, don't you think?
44:05Yummy.
44:05Yeah.
44:05So good.
44:06That's all we've got time for today.
44:08So that's it, I'm afraid,
44:09from the show that never complains,
44:12but always explains.
44:14And if you've got any questions,
44:16please do email in to royals at spirit-studios.com.
44:22And don't forget,
44:23we're out every Thursday on YouTube
44:25and wherever you get your podcasts.
44:27We're on five on Saturdays
44:29and you can find us on Facebook and Instagram,
44:32Catching Up With The Royals.
44:33Please do comment.
44:34Richard and I read every one.
44:37That's all for this week.
44:38Goodbye.
44:38Bye.
44:52Bye.
44:53Bye.
44:53Bye.
44:56Bye.
44:56Bye.
44:56Bye.
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