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On this episode of Essence Live's Kitchen Table Talk, we discuss transgender issues in the black community.
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00:00Welcome to Essence Live. I'm senior news and culture editor Christina Coleman and I have a
00:11question for you. How did you feel when you saw this Essence cover? Empowered because all types
00:17of black women are represented? Or did you feel some type of way that Essence included a transgender
00:21woman like Laverne Cox? Well, regardless of your stance, today's kitchen table talk is for you.
00:26We're talking all about what it means to be black and transgender, how to handle gender identity
00:31issues with our young people, and where does the transgender movement fit within the black women's
00:35movement? Same thing or totally different? Send us your comments right now on social media by using
00:40hashtag EssenceLive, or you can email us at EssenceLive at Essence.com. So in the kitchen with me today are
00:46some very special guests. Clinician Sacred Walker, who calls herself a high femme lesbian. Trans man
00:53founder of Awkward Talent Jay Mace III, author and lifestyle expert Ty Alexander, executive director
01:02of the trans woman and color collective Lourdes Ashley Hunter, who is gender non-performing and
01:08non-binary. And lastly, Chef Caesar, owner of Savory Bites, who is behind me whipping up some yummy
01:15treats to go with our combo. Okay, let's get right into it. Trans issues have become more mainstream,
01:21but for some it may be too much too soon. Most recently in Dave Chappelle's Netflix special,
01:26he said trans people should be more patient and that it will take a while for people to become
01:29really educated on the subject. But does he have a point? Ty, let's start with you.
01:34Really start with me? Well, did you watch the special? I did watch the special and I was more
01:40bothered by his lack of comedy than his actual comments. I didn't think it was very funny and I
01:45thought some of the trans jokes, just some of the very politically incorrect comedy wasn't that funny.
01:53Um, I kind of get where he's coming from just if you just, just by like how long a movement may take,
01:59but I don't think it's right to assume that just because this is a kind of a new movement that it
02:04should only take, you know, 60 years or 20 years. I think that's kind of setting us back in what a
02:09movement means to everyone, if you, if you will. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so moreover, I'm
02:14bothered that he wasn't funny. Listen, I got my thoughts. We're gonna talk about that. Um,
02:18Lawrence, how do you feel or do you feel accepted by the black community as a trans woman? Well, first
02:24of all, acceptance is not something that I seek from anyone to validate my identity. So, um, I hope
02:31that answers what you're asking me. Like acceptance was never part, is not part of the plan. And Mace,
02:37what about you as a trans man? Do other men who were born, uh, male accept you or what has,
02:41what has had those challenges been? So I think, uh, similarly in the same vein as what Lloyd's
02:47is saying, I'm not, I don't think I'm ever searching for everyone to accept or completely,
02:51um, understand exactly what my experience is. I think I'm fortunate enough that I've,
02:56uh, as we think about the length of all these different movements and all the different radical
03:00black trans activists that existed over hundreds of years on this continent and beyond, right?
03:06And in Africa and in different parts of the world. Um, I'm so grateful for all the trans people of
03:12color that have, uh, taken me under their wing to help me understand what that movement and that
03:16legacy looks like. Yeah. With clarity comes understanding. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think
03:21we had a conversation beforehand and I was just kind of being versed of the different terminology
03:26that kind of comes with, I'm, I don't have, unfortunately I don't have any like trans friends.
03:31So all of the, um, just all of the things I learned are from the internet. So it's, it's
03:36kind of interesting to hear that these terms exist. Um, so again, clarity is good. That's why we
03:42have this conversation. So I don't, I'm a cis woman. If that's how you identify.
03:47I don't know how I, I just, I've never questioned it. It wasn't something that almost to me like
03:56being black, like I'm black and I happen to be a woman. What kind of woman? I'm a nice woman. I'm
03:59a mean woman. I can be a, be, you know what I mean? Like all types of other adjectives I can add to
04:04that. But at the end of the day, I'm just a woman. And we're going to get to that terminology and the
04:08pronouns later, which is a necessary conversation. But sacred, I want to bring you in. What kind of
04:12issues that your patients come to you with? You know, all kinds, especially for young people who
04:17are transitioning. I find that now more than ever, oftentimes the young people know more than their
04:23parents do. And it's really important for us to hold spaces because the trends that we saw,
04:27even in the U S transgender survey that came out in 2015, what we found from that was that families
04:33are the keys to holding safe spaces for young people. It helps reduce the risk. It helps to prevent
04:39oftentimes suicidal ideation because young people are saying, where do I feel safe? I can't go to
04:44school and feel safe. I can't go to the bathroom of my choice, right? And I come home and I feel
04:49uncomfortable. And so it's really, really important for us to support families, especially black families,
04:55to keep them united so that the young person doesn't go out into the world feeling uncomfortable.
05:01And speaking of family, I'd like to know from Laura's and from Mace, what was it like
05:05presenting your true self to your family and your friends? What challenges did you face there?
05:11If any. Yeah. So one thing that's kind of coming up for me, even as I'm here to talk about, you know,
05:16supporting specifically black families, because the reality is that I think a lot of what's missing in
05:20conversations around black trans people is that when we think in the U S and western space about transness,
05:26we're always defaulting to whiteness, right? And so a lot of the resources that exist are not culturally
05:30competent to deal with how black trans people have existed and continue to exist.
05:34I would say for my family, I got some very different reactions. I would say some of them
05:39were very lovely. I would say some of them were really not. But now I've been out for like 13 years
05:45and everyone's got their stuff together. Yeah, that's important. So everyone, we're just getting
05:49started with this conversation, but we're going to take a quick moment to see what Chef Cesar has prepared
05:53for us. So what's the first dish? I'm so excited.
05:58Sweet potato hash bites. Oh my.
06:02So this is a nice little elevated take on a brunch item.
06:06Thank you. You're quite welcome. Okay. And what is that again? One more time?
06:09Steak and sweet potato hash bites with egg yolk vinaigrette.
06:14Oh, that's popping.
06:16Okay. Coming up, I want to talk a little about the backlash that Chimamanda Ngozi
06:21and Adichie received when she spoke about transgender women and feminism.
06:25So keep sending us your comments using hashtag Essence Live.
06:28More on Essence Live's kitchen table talk is up next.
06:30Check out the beauty carnival at the beauty and style expo. You'll get free product giveaways,
06:39complimentary style consultations, mini makeovers, and much more. You can pre-register for the free
06:46expos by downloading the Essence Festival app right now and buy your tickets for the Superdome concert
06:52series. See y'all in all the baby.
06:56You are watching Essence Live's kitchen table talk. I'm senior news and culture editor,
07:00Christina Coleman, and today's kitchen talk is well underway as we discuss transgender issues
07:05in the black community. In the kitchen with me today are clinician and high femme lesbian,
07:10Saker Walker, also CEO of Kumba Health, Jay Mace III, who is a trans man,
07:14Ty Alexander, who is an author and lifestyle expert, and trans woman lords, Ashley Hunter,
07:21and Chef Caesar, who is making us some delicious appetizers. Plus, we can't forget about all of you
07:26watching. You all have already left some really good comments on social media, so keep them coming
07:30using the hashtag EssenceLive, or you can email us at EssenceLive at Essence.com.
07:35Okay, so let's dig a little deeper on today's topic. Recently, actress Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
07:40faced a lot of backlash from when she said this in an interview for Britain's Channel 4 News.
07:44Let's take a look.
07:45So when people talk about, you know, are trans women women, my feeling is trans women are trans women.
07:51I think if you've been, if you've lived in the world as a man, with the privileges that the world
07:56accords to men, and then sort of change, switch gender, it's difficult for me to accept that then
08:04we can equate your experience with the experience of a woman who has lived from the beginning in the
08:10world as a woman and who has not been accorded those privileges that men are.
08:15I don't think it's a good thing to conflate everything into one.
08:20So Chimamanda later clarified her comments, but people still dragged her on social media,
08:24as y'all saw. Marriage Strafton wrote on Facebook,
08:27I am a trans woman, a feminist, and I support you 100% Chimamanda. It isn't transphobic to
08:32acknowledge the simple truth that there are differences between women and trans women.
08:36Molly Weinberg felt similar. She posted,
08:39sometimes cis women have issues you don't have, same as you have issues we don't have.
08:44Maybe try listening to us instead of speaking over us. But Nick Y Ara wasn't here for it. She wrote
08:50on Chimamanda's Facebook page, stop speaking for trans women. It's really not that hard. You cannot
08:56be an ally to LGBTQ people and be transphobic. So what do you feel like being in a position you are
09:01and how you identify, what did you feel about Chimamanda's comments?
09:04Um, I don't, I don't necessarily think they were transphobic only because I do partly agree with
09:11her. I do believe that as a black woman, my movement, my movement as a black woman is different
09:16from any other movement, whether it's a white woman, whether it's a trans woman, whether it's black
09:20men. Like I think the movement is different and far too often black women have been attached to every
09:25single movement. I always question when is it just our time to have our rights and have our moment,
09:31if you will. Do you know what I mean? I feel like we're always attached to something or we're always
09:35someone's ally or we're always, you know, um, just being the friend of others. And at one,
09:40at some point I would like for black women to just be that, if that makes sense.
09:45Okay. And Laura, I really am interested in hearing what you have to say about her comments.
09:50Well, firstly, I am a black woman, just in response. Like, so for me, I'm black before I'm
09:55anything else. And I think that it's important how we frame inquiry and that they're framed with
10:03context. I appreciate Chimamonga's comments regarding the particular issue because she's
10:10speaking of a particular experience. Trans people are not monoliths. As someone who has identified and
10:16been affirmed as trans since I was born, I was never socialized as male. So when you talk about male
10:23privilege, that is not something that I have experienced. As a trans woman, I've been attacked
10:27for being who I am, you know, violently in school all throughout life. And so I think what is happening
10:34here is we're looking at a singular narrative, maybe one so that it's more similar to Caitlyn Jenner,
10:40who was socialized as a male, lived their life in this particular identity and also had that very
10:47specific privilege that Chimamonga is speaking of. You know, at 65 years old, when you transition,
10:53yes, you have been socialized as male, but even still being trans, that socialization does not
10:59really interpret or conflate to someone who identifies and is affirmed as a man.
11:06The biggest thing that I feel is I actually want to interrogate this idea of all this backlash that
11:11Chimamonga's gotten because I don't think that the backlash of getting laid out on Twitter is the same
11:16thing as the types of levels of oppression that lots of black trans women and trans femme people
11:22face. And so these are like very false equivalencies of just, you know, oh, she's being attacked.
11:26It's like, no, you know, when we're talking about the existence of the ways that it's,
11:30Lois was even talking about the physical ways in which black trans femme people and black trans women
11:34are attacked in our own communities as well as outside other communities, because we still are,
11:39as black trans people, we still, you know, are victims of state violence and even more so,
11:45right? Um, especially when we're talking about black trans femme and black trans women people.
11:49Um, and so this, this, this place in which people feel like the need to protect her over some stuff
11:54that is not going to lose her income, not going to make her lose her house or is not or her life,
11:59right? Um, and so that's, uh, so that thing needs to shift, right? This thing about feelings and theory,
12:04because this is not a theory. It's about people's actual lived experience, right? I did a blog on Chimamonga.
12:09I was telling you this before on what she's talked about, the danger of the single story.
12:13And what she's talking about or pointing out are the diverse voices. I mean, that's really what,
12:18she's a storyteller. She's not saying that I am going to represent the whole community of anything.
12:23She specifically said, I'm, I am passionate, just like I'm passionate about racial justice,
12:27sexual ethics. She's saying I'm passionate about feminism, but do not have me speak for everyone.
12:32But one thing that I want to point out, I was thinking back to, well, how does this relate to
12:35the family? And I was thinking back to growing up in a Jamaican household. You know, we had a family
12:40member that was a young boy who'd love to play with art. And every single time he would pick up a
12:46paintbrush, everyone in the family would run over, stop that, you're acting like a little girl and would
12:50beat him. That young man grew up learning the minute that I pick up a paintbrush, I have the right to have
12:57harm happen to me. Yeah. Because I'm pushing down my femininity. So I just wanted to invite that into the
13:01conversation that sometimes we have this divide and we don't think about maybe, you know, outside
13:05of the box a little bit, how do we as the black community respond to even our children when they
13:10do anything that looks like, oh, you're acting as a boy or a girl. Okay, we're going to keep the
13:15conversation going after a quick break. Plus, I still want to hear from you. If you're watching us on
13:20Facebook, post your comments or just weigh in using the hashtag Essence Live. We'll be right back with
13:25more of Essence Live's kitchen table talk.
13:31I Am Not Your Negro. That's a new film, but it's a documentary film. It's worth seeing. And it's
13:38extremely well done. Secondly, I would probably say maybe Do The Right Thing. I think Do The Right
13:44Thing is a good one. You know, it shows some accurate racial tension unlike any other movie. And
13:50it's not gangster. And then Paid in Full. I'm going to say Paid in Full there because you got to see
13:55something with me in it, so.
13:59Dude, the second album needs to be bigger than the first album. Otherwise, he going to look like a fluke.
14:05I think people should watch the breaks now to experience the journey of the characters that are
14:09involved and also to go back in time a little bit to the roots of some of the hip-hop that's around now,
14:18stemmed out of that era then. But most importantly, I think it's a character-driven show. The series
14:24goes more in-depth and I think that people will be captivated mainly by that and the music. Of
14:31course, the music would premiere doing the music. It really takes us back.
14:37Welcome back to Essence Live. I'm senior news and culture editor, Christina Coleman,
14:44and today's Kitchen Table Talk is all about trans issues. In the kitchen with me today are CEO of
14:49Kumba Health, Sacred Walker, founder of Awkward Talent and Poet, Jay Mace III, author and lifestyle
14:56expert, Ty Alexander, and executive director of the Trans Women of Color Collective, Lourdes Ashley Hunter.
15:03And shout out to Chef Cesar who's preparing another appetizer for us. I cannot wait to taste what he's
15:09making. A sister is hungry. Remember to chime in on this discussion using hashtag Essence Live or you
15:15can email us at essenceslive at essence.com. Okay, let's talk about a touchy subject, gender reassignment
15:22surgery. Where did the decision to have surgery fit into your transitions? Does anyone want to weigh in on
15:27the surgery aspect? I think that surgery is something that is personal and it's something that each
15:37individual trans person decides upon. Surgery is not an indicator of someone being trans. I think we also
15:45have to think about how colonization has told us how we need to show up, what is beautiful, what is
15:50acceptable as men and women. And a lot of times trans folk are really just trying to live their own lives and
15:56fit in the best way they can. And so sometimes surgery happens. Sometimes it's not even an issue
16:02for trans people. Some people don't want surgery at all. And so for me, it's really an individual choice
16:08for folk. Yeah. And I think going back again, like thinking about pre-colonization, right? So the reality
16:14is it's with or without surgery. Ever since people have been attempting to assign gender roles to genitalia,
16:19there have been trans people on this planet. We've existed for thousands, about thousands of years with
16:23or without surgery, period. And so there's also this way in which a lot of non-trans people and
16:27cisgender people will try to wait before they believe someone about who they are and sort of getting
16:34people to a place of, you know, I am who exactly I say I am regardless of whether I choose to decide
16:39not to or what I will do with my body. Ty, what are your thoughts? I mean, in understanding trans issues,
16:44has the issue of or the subject of surgery ever come up in your conversations?
16:49Um, I don't understand it to be honest. Um, I don't, when I think about like trans women or
16:57I don't understand what, if you're a trans woman, I don't understand why you wouldn't become
17:01a woman. Like if you're opting to fill the part of what it means to be a woman, i.e.
17:07dressing that way or acting that way, whatever that means, then if you had the opportunity and you
17:11could afford it and the insurance was available, what would stop you from not having the surgery?
17:16And then that's a misnomer because we're equating vagina with womanhood. You know, we're equating
17:21these. I mean, as a woman, that's the only thing that I know, like as a, as a woman. But you also
17:26said like how folks dress, you know, how folks carry themselves. And those are socially constructed
17:31throughout time. They have changed the role of a woman. The role of a man has been changed
17:36throughout time. And it's also socially constructed. I can't say that how I feel as a woman is socially
17:41constructive. How I feel as a woman is how I feel as a woman, period. Like no one, socially, no one
17:47is giving me these messages to make me feel like a woman. I feel like a woman every day beyond that.
17:52So the view there is just different. So what are those messages though? What are those messages
17:57that tell you that you're a woman and where do they originate? There are no messages. I wake up every
18:02day and I am a woman. That's it for me. And I'm not, and I'm not saying that it isn't for you,
18:09but you chose to be that way. I could choose to be a man today and now I am identifying as a man.
18:14I think what I have. So I think that that's where my disconnect is. What I have chosen is to reject
18:21the notion that society tells me how. But in choosing that every day.
18:25Let me finish. I choose to wake up as my authentic self, which is a woman visually to me.
18:34Well, that's to you, right? Cause I'm non-binary. You know, I'm, I'm a gender abolitionist. I,
18:39I understand how gender as a social construct continues to oppress not just trans people,
18:44but all people. And how many times have you been in a room in which trans people were talking
18:49and you had to listen, period. Like, so, cause I, I mean, with the, with the exception of today,
18:54I've never had an in-depth conversation with anyone trans outside of that. So again,
19:01in this moment, my views are being challenged, but even when I think of how I feel about being a woman,
19:08it's just how I feel. Like, I don't have, like, I'm never going to, like, I get how you feel about not
19:14having to conform to what society says, male or woman. I, I understand that. That's not my stance.
19:20I can still feel that this is, I am a woman. This is how I feel, but how you feel is something
19:25completely different. And I can sympathize and I can respect that. And that's, that's it.
19:29But I think that it has to go beyond, um, conversations. It has to go with
19:33cis people actually believing and accepting that, you know, uh, the analogy I always use is like,
19:39when you were a kid, you learn one plus one equals two. At some point, you learned that, uh, multiple,
19:44division, you learned fractions, you learned, um, all this stuff and you decide whether or not math
19:48was for you, right? At a certain point. We do not expect someone with a kindergarten level of math
19:52to have the same conversation as math as we do an astrophysicist. And yet we expect us to have the
19:57same conversation about gender. It's not possible because trans people have had to be conceptualizing
20:01and thinking about challenging people's notions of gender to survive. Otherwise we wouldn't be here,
20:05right? Absolutely. And so we've been doing this and doing this work on ourselves and we need cis folks to
20:11get into the work. Actively engage in the elevation of their consciousness. So when we talk about cis
20:16people and, and you also, uh, mentioned. Why does that sound so derogatory to me though? Even in how,
20:22like, it's used in sentences as I'm just gathering it, it just sounds like not a good word. Like,
20:27oh, those cis people, they don't understand who we are. Versus, you know, just maybe non-trans,
20:32like, like we don't say non-trans. Well, cis is an actual word. Like, you can google it C-I-S.
20:37But in how you're using it, it just doesn't feel inviting to me. It gives, it also gives power to
20:42trans people because when we, when we, oftentimes trans people are othered, right? And to be trans
20:47is to be othered, to be outed, to be different. There's something that I say, uh, trans people
20:52navigating cis dominated spaces is violence laying in wait because we always have to justify why we're
20:58sitting at the table. And this is not even an experience that's indicative to trans people.
21:03Black women tell, let me tell you about it. Black men tell me how you always have to be 10 times,
21:0820 times just to show up in a space. And so that is a relatable experience. You know,
21:14you're not going to understand everything about trans people in our conversation.
21:18The best takeaway is that we are humans. We deserve humanity. We do not deserve to be murdered for not,
21:26how we show up. We deserve access to housing, healthcare, jobs, and education,
21:31just like everybody at this table, right? Yes. Yes. You know, when we think about it,
21:35at the end of the day, when you're two years old, you're first exploring your body. Like, okay,
21:40what is my body part? Someone's telling you what your body part is. And then at four,
21:44then you begin to learn, okay, well, this is how you show up as this. And this is how you show up as
21:49that. And if you think of it as non-binary, it's almost like, okay, well, at four years old,
21:54if you had a parent that said, baby, how you show up is how you show up. That, if you think of it that way,
22:01it's not, okay, wait, no, no, no. You want to be a nurse? You're a little boy. You need to stop
22:05that. You can only be a doctor. It's just saying you're not tracking children. That's, so just think
22:10of it that way. These are conversations that the black community have been talking about
22:14for years. It's just now coming to a head. All right. Well, y'all, I'm starving that conversation.
22:21Chef Cesar, we're ready to eat. What is the next dish?
22:24So right now we have my signature rasa pasta. Oh my. And three bing falafels. Oh my.
22:31We are going to dig into here. Thank you all for joining me. These are conversations that we need
22:35to have to heal our community. So thank you so much for joining us. And I hope we have more of
22:38these conversations. Thank you to our viewers streaming us live on essence.com and Facebook Live.
22:44Tune in next week for an all new Essence Live. I'm Christina Coleman. Thanks for watching.
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