- 10 hours ago
Join ESSENCE Associate Lifestyle editor Jasmine Grant as she speaks to Imara Jones and Hope Giselle about Black Trans Women, allies, and more.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00:00Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Jasmine Grant. I'm an associate lifestyle editor here at
00:00:05Essence. I want to thank everybody for taking the time to tune in today, wishing you safety
00:00:10and peace wherever you're tuning in from. I'm really excited about this conversation today.
00:00:16I'm going to be joined by two tremendous dynamic activists, Hope Giselle and Amara Jones. They're
00:00:22here today to talk about what's going on in America for Black trans women. As you know,
00:00:28Black trans women are at huge risk in this country for violence and many other issues,
00:00:34and this is a topic that is really important to me to discuss and bring here on this platform today.
00:00:39And so I just want to thank both of these ladies for taking the time to be here and for lending
00:00:43their expertise to help us learn and to help us tackle and find out how we can be better allies.
00:00:49So please welcome Amara Jones and Hope Giselle.
00:00:53Hi, Amara. Hi, Hope.
00:00:57Thank you for being here.
00:00:59Thank you for having me, us.
00:01:02Thank you so much. So I'm, again, excited to have you. There's so much to talk about,
00:01:12um, right? So, but I just want to first, um, let the floor and introduce both of you,
00:01:17talk about your stories and how you became activists and, um, doing the work that you're
00:01:22doing. Let's start with you, Hope.
00:01:24Uh, so essentially it was something that kind of found me. I remember I was in college and it was
00:01:31right around the time or after the time that, um, the Obama administration had given us, like,
00:01:38privileges for gay marriage and being somebody who was black and heavily in the black community.
00:01:43Most of the people that I was seeing on my feed were black folk that were reacting to it with
00:01:47very negative feedback. And it was one of those things that like, just did not make sense to me.
00:01:52And, you know, because I am an emotional thinker, uh, the first thing that I could think to do was
00:01:58like, I had to say something. And I remember the Facebook live feature was, it was new. It was
00:02:03fairly new at the time. It wasn't something that people were really utilizing. Um, and I was just
00:02:09like, you know what? Like, screw it. I'm going to, I'm going to get on here and I'm going to say
00:02:12what I need to say. And they're just going to have to deal with it. And I made a video and within
00:02:18the day it was at like a hundred thousand views and I got all of the support and all of these people
00:02:24that were just like, you know, I'm here for you. Thank you for saying what you had to say.
00:02:28And after that, everything else just kind of took off. It was, um, you know, just,
00:02:34it was one of those things where I started to say more and I started to speak more.
00:02:37And then I started to have people read me for, you know, not, uh, presenting the information
00:02:42correctly or, um, not doing my research. And so then that kind of propels me to be better about
00:02:47doing my research and knowing what I was talking about versus just coming from a place of, um,
00:02:53just feelings and thoughts and emotions that I felt that actually doing the research and being
00:02:58able to present numbers and statistics and as well as my opinion and my emotion. And, um,
00:03:03after a while, what I started to realize was that I wanted to become the voice that I didn't hear
00:03:09or that I didn't see largely and vastly in the trans community. And especially not from young
00:03:14Black trans women that were my age, you know, we were being taught that it was about looking pretty
00:03:20and passing and making sure that you had the nicest bags and the nicest shoes and that you
00:03:24could keep up with the most beautiful of cis women. But we weren't taught that we had to have
00:03:29brains or that we should be getting degrees or that we should, you know, take pride in our
00:03:33educations and, you know, what we were able to give back to the world and to all of our communities.
00:03:39And ultimately I decided to be the voice that wasn't there and be the person that I wanted to see.
00:03:44Um, and thus we have hope Giselle. Yes. Amazing. And you've been doing incredible work.
00:03:52Uh, what about you Amara? Let's hear your story. So actually I see myself, um, and actually am more
00:03:59of a journalist and a truth teller, um, who always has had a commitment to social justice across, um, all
00:04:06the different areas that I've worked in from politics to communication and to, um, my career in
00:04:11journalism. And so as I have ventured more and more, um, into my, um, gender journey into my womanhood,
00:04:20all I've done is to take all those skills in terms of, um, journalism and truth telling and a commitment
00:04:26to social justice and apply them to my community. Because, um, if you look at, um, the situation of
00:04:34black trans women and how it relates to our entire community, that is an entire story. Um,
00:04:41that is an entire set of richness. And so as I have learned, um, and become more committed to the
00:04:48truth and myself, I've been able to talk more and more about the truth as it impacts, um, our community.
00:04:55And so I really am kind of in this intersection of, um, journalism, excuse me, and social justice.
00:05:02And the reason why that is, is because one of the parts of our job as journalists is to
00:05:07find out the truth. I believe it's not to be, it's objectively find the truth, but it is to find
00:05:11the truth. And once you arrive at the truth of black trans women, um, you have to speak it. And
00:05:17I had to speak it. And so that's how I got here. And that's actually how I started by my project
00:05:22Translash, which does that. Incredible. And, you know, um, I really wanted to dive into also
00:05:30your journey, um, as trans women and how you kind of came into your own identity while not always
00:05:38feeling supported and embraced by family, by your community. How, what was that like? And how did
00:05:45you learn to love and accept and affirm yourself? Um, I got Amara, you can go cause I went first last time.
00:05:52Oh, okay. You know, I, you know, some questions I'm okay with like, not going first. Um, no, I, um,
00:06:02for me, um, it's really important. I think from my own personal journey is that, um,
00:06:10I constantly, like most trans people had a portion of my life specifically growing up that then, um,
00:06:19extended further where there was, um, the person that everyone saw and the person that everyone
00:06:26wanted to be, which was the boy on the outside, but the girl on the inside was the actual person.
00:06:32And so after a while living into that double consciousness, like everything can become a
00:06:38habit. And so, so much of my life has been about undoing that habit of, of learning. Um,
00:06:46um, you know, so many of us are a composite, um, and don't even realize that we are either who we
00:06:53actually are or who people want us to be and unlearning who people want you to be and unlearning
00:07:00those practices has been really difficult. And for me, there was layered on top of it, the fear of
00:07:05growing up in a violent household where, um, any gender variance, um, was penalized and where there were
00:07:13direct threats, um, made against me for my gender identity. And so, so much of the unpacking for me
00:07:21has been about the psychological unburdening of, um, all of those early lessons that I learned
00:07:27in order to survive. And I think my journey with my family continues. There are parts of my family that
00:07:33are incredibly and enormously supportive and loving, mainly the Black women in my family. Um, and then
00:07:41there are parts of my family that are not and, um, where I find and have a lot of difficulties, um,
00:07:47including with my own father. And so it's a mixed bag. Um, I do not believe that transphobia is intrinsic
00:07:53to people. Um, one of the most supportive people in my family is my 93 now, um, year old great aunt who
00:08:01just did miss a beat on, um, my transition. And so I really think that whether or not people decide to be
00:08:08supportive of us is not a result of age or religion or where they live, it's actually one of choice.
00:08:15And because it's one of choice, it's one that I know we can change.
00:08:21Beautifully said. How about you, Hope?
00:08:26Um, honestly, yeah, because it's one of those, yeah, I mean, not even more so. It's not, it's not
00:08:36complicated, but I think that it's just, it's not monolithic. And I think that everybody expects
00:08:41there to be this one trans story of like how you knew since you were like two, you know, and then
00:08:47like you got beatings for it. And then, you know, you came out to be this beautiful butterfly, right?
00:08:52Um, but for me, it was one of those things where, when I was growing up, I didn't have the freedom
00:08:57to express that, right? I was always this flamboyant, very feminine, um, little gay boy who
00:09:05loved gymnastics and wanted to dance and loved ballet and loved all of these things. And I think
00:09:11that my first big support system came from my grandfather, um, Roosevelt, uh, God rest his soul,
00:09:18who him and my grandmother, like they advocated for me hard to do whatever it is that I wanted to do.
00:09:24My mother, um, was very much so because she was a young mom, you know, and so she still had the
00:09:29ideologies that like we live in the projects, like you can't be doing this because it's a reflection of me.
00:09:34And it's, you know, like there was a whole bunch of nuances to that, but to be perfectly honest,
00:09:40and I say this in my book, a lot of the times is that growing up as a little black gay boy in the
00:09:47hood, I didn't have a lot of, of, of trans role models. There was one, um, trans-esque figure,
00:09:54which was Honey. And Honey was essentially a cross-dresser named Malcolm, who is now a transgender
00:09:59woman named Honey. Um, but when I was growing up, Honey would bounce back and forth between
00:10:06Malcolm and Honey. And I didn't even know that I had the option to be anything other than, than,
00:10:12you know, who I was. And I think my first brush with transness and the, my first, my first brush
00:10:18with understanding and knowing that I even had a choice was, um, I remember I had gotten in trouble
00:10:24for not speaking to one of my mom's boyfriends or something like that. And it wasn't because I
00:10:28didn't speak to him. It was because he told her and the way that he described it was he didn't speak
00:10:34to me and he walked away from me switching like a little sissy. And so I wasn't in trouble for
00:10:40disrespecting an adult, or I wasn't in trouble for the idea that I was rude to, you know, a superior or
00:10:46an elder. I was in trouble because I embarrassed him in front of his friends. And then he called my
00:10:52mom to let her know that, you know, he was embarrassed about the idea that he was dating
00:10:57the girl with the sissy son. And so she comes in on like this random Saturday swinging, you know,
00:11:04and my grandmother and my grandfather, we were all in the living room watching a movie and she just
00:11:09comes in swinging, doesn't explain anything, just starts wailing. And, um, my grandparents were like,
00:11:15what the fuck is going on? Excuse me. I'm sorry. Like we were just like, what was happening?
00:11:20And, um, I remember going through, you know, as a kid, you're going through your head, like,
00:11:23what did I do? Did I, did my report, my report card come out? Like, what did somebody call the
00:11:27house? And, um, when she explained it after she was done, she was just like, do you want to be a girl?
00:11:34And that was the first time I even knew I was like, what do you mean? Do I want to be a girl?
00:11:39That's not even possible. How, like, why are you asking me this question? And I remember saying no.
00:11:45And she was like, good, because if you ever come home as anything other than my son,
00:11:49I don't know you. And it was at that moment that I started to explore the idea because I was like,
00:11:56oh, oh, I could do that. Oh, I might be, I might be, okay, cool. But I lived the rest of my, I lived,
00:12:05you know, 18 years, um, as a little gay boy. And I was happy with that until I wasn't.
00:12:11And I just remember, um, waking up one morning and I needed to do something. I needed to feel
00:12:17something because I just wasn't liking myself. I don't think I've ever been like unattractive,
00:12:21but I woke up one morning. I just felt ugly and heavy for absolutely no reason. This, this came out
00:12:27of nowhere. There was no buildup. There was no, you know, suicidal thoughts or attempts days before.
00:12:33There was no jumping or, or, you know, mental trauma. I just woke up. And I remember staring
00:12:41in the mirror at myself and I tried to beat it. I was like, you know what? I've always had natural
00:12:45hair. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to do my hair. I'm going to find a new style on
00:12:49YouTube and I'm going to get over this funk. And so I get on YouTube and it was just like,
00:12:52it was meant because how do I go looking for natural hair tutorials and find a video of Janet
00:12:58Mock and I'm looking, you know, for natural hair tutorials. And I'm like, who is this woman with
00:13:04this beautiful curly hair? But she ain't talking about hair. She talking about this thing called
00:13:09being transgender. And it was like a full circle moment because in the midst of it,
00:13:16I was just like, that's who I am. That's the problem. This is fake. This is okay. So that,
00:13:23oh, there's a word for me and it's not gay. It's not that this is, this is what it is.
00:13:32And from that day forth, literally I went in my closet, I threw away everything masculine that I
00:13:36could without having to walk around campus naked. And I just started living as Hope. I was already
00:13:44going by Hope. Nobody at the university, unless you were like a part of one of my classes. And
00:13:48even my professors would call me Hope once they realized who it was. So I just went by Hope and
00:13:54changed my name and started to live that truth. And it was a hard, it was a hard thing for my mother to
00:13:59experience because there was no coming out. There was just existence. And so I think for my mom,
00:14:08where I messed up was that there was no coming out process. There was no conversation. There was no,
00:14:14not that I feel like I owe her that, but I think that it would have been easier for myself and for
00:14:20my mother. If there would have been a conversation, there would have been like an easing or there would
00:14:24have been some sorts of talks. I just left home one way and came back another way and made everyone
00:14:33deal with it. And it became this sort of back and forth for years. She didn't become, I'm the first
00:14:40born, the oldest, and my mother didn't even come to my graduation because of this. And it's ridiculous
00:14:48to think of how we allow those things to impact us. But now I can look at this and say that my mom
00:14:55and I, you know, she helped me pick doctors to go and get my breast augmentation. And she gives me
00:14:59her dresses when she doesn't like them or, you know, and so, and I never thought we would be at that
00:15:03point ever. But my, my journey, while it was different, I think it's, it's valid. And it also tells the
00:15:11story of how sometimes people are pulled into who they are without even realizing that that's exactly who
00:15:18they are to begin with. Ooh, that is such a powerful story. And I'm happy that in the end,
00:15:24you know, you and your mom were able to come together and have that bond and that acceptance.
00:15:30And Amara, you also spoke about that in a piece that you wrote for The Guardian, which I loved about
00:15:35going back home to the South and, you know, having those talks with family, which everyone should go
00:15:40read, by the way. Thank you for sharing those stories. What I wanted to talk about also is the fact that
00:15:48you know, it's no secret that black trans women are at risk of experiencing violence at extremely
00:15:54higher rates. Just this year, 14 black trans women have been killed. And that number is actually thought
00:16:02to be even higher than what's being reported. Why do you think that black trans women are so heavily
00:16:10targeted in this way? And especially by other black people?
00:16:17Um, I think my answer to that, and I think we'll all have different answers to that.
00:16:22Um, I think there are a couple that stand out for me. Um,
00:16:29the reason why the violence is so acute that leads to murder for black trans women is not because one
00:16:35thing is going wrong. It's because everything is going wrong. When you have that level of violence,
00:16:40it's because there is a systemic failure that is rooted not only in the immediate incidents that led
00:16:47to that person's death, but also the complete and utter failure of society in terms of education,
00:16:54in terms of housing, in terms of healthcare, in terms of the total infrastructure that leads
00:17:00to a life, a long life and a lack of wellbeing. And we know what those things are because we know
00:17:06that the people who have those things live a long time and the people that don't don't. It's really
00:17:12very focused and, and not that much more complicated than that, I don't think,
00:17:17in a, in a larger sense. And I think just to put into context, I think that, you know,
00:17:21we need to remember that in terms of violence against, um, trans women, the American Medical
00:17:26Association has declared it to be an epidemic. Um, and the United States has the highest numbers
00:17:33of murders of trans people than any other country on the planet, except for Brazil and Mexico. And
00:17:3990% of those are black trans women. And when we talk specifically about incidences that lead to death,
00:17:47besides the total failure of everything else that leads to the death of black trans women from a
00:17:52structural and institutional point, most black trans women are victims of intimate partner violence.
00:17:59That is to say that people, uh, who murder us know us, they are either, um, uh, our neighbors or they
00:18:07are former partners or actual partners now. And, um, and there is an incident which leads to that
00:18:15person's death. And in that black trans women actually mirror the deaths of black women. We know that
00:18:22black cis women overall, that the leading cause of death for those under the age of 35 is intimate
00:18:28partner violence. Black women have the highest incidence of intimate partner violence than any
00:18:34other group in the country. And so there's so many ways in which there's this idea that there's this
00:18:39separation, this difference between the, um, incidence of violence against black trans women and
00:18:45black cis women. No, there's an epidemic of violence against black women. And the only way that we're
00:18:50going to solve that epidemic of violence against black women is to realize that cis or trans, we actually
00:18:57are all facing the same issue and that the only people that are going to care about us is us. And that
00:19:02we need to figure out exactly how we're going to deal and counteract that. And there's so many other
00:19:07issues that we could go into about, um, that feed into that around toxic masculinity, around male fragility,
00:19:15um, the way in which black men are allowed to not be held accountable for their behavior and a whole
00:19:20host of other ways, the way in which black men are allowed to externalize their emotions. So the way
00:19:26they feel is your problem. So you are the problem. And if they deal with you, they've dealt with the way
00:19:31that they are feeling. And so if they are angry at something, it's your problem. That anger gets to be
00:19:35targeted at you. If they are depressed, it is your problem. And so it needs to be targeted at you.
00:19:40So there's so many things from institutional to race, to, to, um, gender dynamics within our own
00:19:47community that lead to this epidemic of, uh, violence against black trans women who are the
00:19:53most marginalized of the marginalized. Ooh, that was a word. Preach. Um, hope. I would love to hear
00:20:03from you about this. I think for me, a lot of the reason that we're seeing large numbers of black
00:20:09trans women being killed is because people know that they can, right? It's just, it's about the
00:20:14ability and the access to know that you can do something and get away with it and nobody will care.
00:20:19When we talk about the LGBT community as, as a whole, right? Not even separating black trans women.
00:20:25When we talk about the way that the black community is, is, is, um, is raised, right? To believe
00:20:34about the black community. We're taught from a very young age, boys do this, girls do that. If
00:20:39black boys get caught playing with Barbie dolls, that's a little bit different than when little
00:20:42white boys or, you know, other people get caught playing with Barbie dolls. There's this like
00:20:46inherent need to beat it out of you. There's this inherent need to force you to play football or force
00:20:52you to do this or force you to do that. And a lot of the homo and transphobia that we learn
00:20:58in part comes from our parents and their inherent need to not be embarrassed by having other people
00:21:06know that they have one of those types of children. And I think that that's a part of the dynamic that
00:21:11doesn't get discussed often enough is that a lot of the reason that parents are, you know, um,
00:21:17uh, subject, subjecting of children to this behavior, to their erratic responses to homosexuality
00:21:25or transgenderism at very young ages is because parents are embarrassed and they don't like the
00:21:31idea of having to defend their child. They don't like the idea of having to have conversations about
00:21:35it. And it's because they're not educated in the black community. There aren't resources for parents.
00:21:40You know, there are not people that are at the schools saying like, Hey, this is how you deal with,
00:21:45you know, gender, queer child children or gender. I didn't have an LGBT therapist or a GSA at my school
00:21:53until I got into high school. And by then it was too late. The damage had been done. But imagine if
00:21:58we had some of the resources that some of these kids in these private schools or these white
00:22:03predominant areas have where they have people that specifically deal with this. And the second they
00:22:07see a child, you know, exhibiting these traits, they call the parents in and there's the meeting
00:22:11and there's pamphlets. And you're like, imagine if black parents had that, right. And they had those
00:22:18resources, those conversations, there will be less killing going on later because black
00:22:22men would know how to talk to their queer sons. They would not, they would know how to talk to
00:22:27their trans daughters. And so with black women. And I think that as we get older, what we're seeing
00:22:32is the aggression that black men have towards women and then not being able to take that out
00:22:38out on cis women because cis women are still coveted, regardless of the disrespect that I think
00:22:43cis women can be shown at times, cis women are coveted. You can't do something to a black cis woman and not
00:22:48be held accountable for it on some level. But a black trans woman, you can kill her, you can beat
00:22:54her, you can throw her into a suitcase with her legs chopped off, and people will ask what she did to
00:22:59deserve it. They will never question why you did it. And I think that that is why a lot of us are
00:23:06coming up disproportionately murdered and killed. Because when we are disproportionately murdered and
00:23:10killed, it doesn't matter what the story says. You can have all the receipts in the world that says that he
00:23:15knew exactly what was going on and that he snapped. And people will still find a way to blame this on
00:23:22the victim, which usually is a black trans woman. We've seen the comments no matter what. I remember
00:23:27about two years ago, I was reading a story where a young woman was killed. And in the story, they
00:23:34purposefully mentioned that the police found the chap, that he knew that this was a young trans woman,
00:23:41that she made it very clear that she was transgender, and that they had been together,
00:23:45they were in a relationship for months. And then I scrolled down to the comments to see if it would
00:23:50be any different. Because now there's receipts right now. Now you know, now you can't say well,
00:23:55you know, they maybe if they stopped tricking people that you know, and the comments were still the same.
00:24:01Well, I mean, you know, sometimes they wrap them up. And those boys think that they want to do that. And
00:24:06then when they realize that they don't want to do it, they try to get away those transgender people.
00:24:11And it's just like, but wait, what? That we're in a relationship, the receipts are here.
00:24:17And I think that this is an attribution to why black transgender women come up missing and come
00:24:22up dead, because black men know that at all costs, people are going to protect them. Because black
00:24:27masculinity is at the hierarchy of things that are worth the deep, like those black masculinity is
00:24:35is unsurmountably, like it is unsurmount, it is unsurmountably priceless. You can't buy it
00:24:43anywhere. And once you have it, people will fight to make sure that you can keep it. Your mother,
00:24:48your father, your aunts, your uncles, you, other black trans women, black gay men who are subjected
00:24:54to the same exact things. And it's just, it's sad to see. But I think it's one of those things where we
00:24:58have to dissect the ways in which our community sees black trans people and black queer people
00:25:04and black LGB people before we even start to talk about dismantling what the government thinks about
00:25:10us. Because we don't like ourselves. The community don't like us. And so before we go and attack white
00:25:15folks for not liking us for a plethora of different reasons, we need to talk about the black church.
00:25:21And we need to talk about the socialization of black children. And we need to talk about why
00:25:25there are no resources for black parents. And we need to talk about why it's such an issue to speak
00:25:30about things in the home that revolve around anything sexual. Because that's also another
00:25:35problem is that people think that queer means sex. That your four-year-old is automatically going to
00:25:39start having sex or thinking about sex changes. And it's not like that. And it's because we don't
00:25:44have the access. And so we keep dying because we don't have the information. And until we get it,
00:25:49it's going to continue to be a thing. Yeah. Can I just add to one thing that
00:25:54that folks said? I mean, I have a slightly different point of view where I think that
00:25:58I think that the lives of black women overall are just not as valued as that of black men.
00:26:02I think if you looked at who talked about Breonna Taylor, Breonna Taylor was a,
00:26:07was an afterthought, right? So I believe that it's a devaluing of black women overall.
00:26:15I think that it is even more so for black trans women, which is why I say it's like
00:26:19marginalized within marginalization. And in particular, when you look at the way that black
00:26:24trans women die, that's different. That black trans women, there's an amount of rage and brutality
00:26:32in our deaths. So the fact that Dominique Remy Fells last week was dismembered and thrown in pieces
00:26:40in the river that runs through Philadelphia. And that's not unique. The two women in Puerto Rico
00:26:49who were shot and then burned in the car. Yes. Right. Those are the things that are different.
00:26:54And I think that one of the things that's so important about what Hope said is that
00:26:58you'll notice that neither one of us said it was because black trans, I'm sorry, that black men don't
00:27:03know. Or neither one of us have said it's because trans women don't reveal. That has very little to
00:27:13do with these cases. When you actually look at them, that's a myth. And the fact that black people even
00:27:19think that that's a rationale, I think is deeply disturbing. The fact is that you don't get to kill
00:27:24someone, even if it was the case, and it's mostly not, but even if it was the case that you were, quote,
00:27:29surprised, how often are you surprised and it leads into death? And if you believe that that's the
00:27:35answer, if you actually believe that that is a justification, then you have to have a really
00:27:42hard look at your own humanity, who you believe should be treated as human, how you value yourself.
00:27:49And I think that there's a lot of complex emotional and psychological stuff that happens,
00:27:56but neither one of us have said, and it's a really important point, that it's not because of this
00:28:01herb myth that these people were, quote, tricked, close quote.
00:28:04Right. Right. Yeah, that is a huge stereotype. And I'm so glad that you spoke on that. And
00:28:10one thing that you both hit on that actually is a great segue to my next question is the parallels,
00:28:16right, between the violence against all black women, transgender, cisgender. We experience a lot of the
00:28:24the same things. And so a lot of people who are watching this or just tuning in are going to ask
00:28:28themselves, how can I help? What can I do? I'm a black cisgender woman. I hate what's going on to
00:28:33our trans sisters. I want this to stop. And I want to use my voice to help and to give back to end this
00:28:40for all of us. What's your response to that? What do you think the answer is?
00:28:44My usual response is like create space and step up. But as of late, what I've been challenging myself
00:28:55and what I've been wanting to have conversations with and what I feel like black cisgender women
00:29:00need to hear from black trans women is that that ain't your job. It is not the inherent job. It is not
00:29:07the sole role of black cisgender women to make black trans women feel comfortable when black cisgender
00:29:15women, like Amara said, are also a part of that, you know, that hierarchy of patriarchy of black men,
00:29:22of white men, of white women, of the LGBT community in some spaces. Black women are just, you know,
00:29:28I feel like, like Amara was saying, when it comes to black women, black trans women and black cis women
00:29:33alike, while black cis women might be above us on that, that they're not, they're not that far up.
00:29:38And I think what a lot of us are expecting black women to do is save the world. And that is something
00:29:44that they've been expected to do for everybody. They have to save white women from white fragility.
00:29:49They have to turn around and check white men. They have to turn around and raise black boys to have
00:29:54some common sense. They have to turn around and be advocates for the LGBT community. Then after that,
00:29:59they have to turn around and save themselves and be pretty and be skinny and be light skinned and be
00:30:03beautiful and have the best hair and have the nicest hair texture. Then they have to compete
00:30:08against these, you know, exotic women that come from all overseas that these men protect more than
00:30:13they protect black women, even though black women are queens. Then they turn around and be told by
00:30:17these kings that they're not good enough. Then you turn around and have somebody who for, for sake of
00:30:24social concepts, right, used to be a man who is now a woman that is also deemed as more important
00:30:30than you by the government or society, depending on what the conversation looks like. And I think
00:30:35that what a lot of people are missing, especially what a lot of folks in my community are missing,
00:30:39is empathy. And I think that we're missing the conversation around being able to hold space
00:30:46for the women who are constantly being asked to hold space. And nobody is asking them,
00:30:52what do black women need outside of black women? Yes, there are summits and conferences and black
00:31:01women's retreats, but who's doing that? Black women. Black women have to create those spaces for
00:31:07themselves and get away from the world for themselves. But even as it pertains to black
00:31:11trans women and LGBT people, you got white folks that want to have spaces for us. You have Latinx folks that
00:31:17want to have spaces for us. Black men don't really have people to vent to, but black men got all these
00:31:22football sports events, these male healing circles. Black women are throwing black men brunches and
00:31:27making sure that black men feel safe and da-da-da-da-da-da. But the only time that a black woman who is
00:31:32cisgender gets a chance to get away, feel her beats, feel herself, live in her blackness is when another
00:31:37black woman says, you know what? I got y'all. The tab is on me. And I think that that's unfair, right? And so first and
00:31:44foremost, what I think that black cisgender women can do for me as a black trans woman is take a step
00:31:49back, love on yourself first, and then let's have this conversation. Because I think that a lot of
00:31:55the anger and a lot of the versus conversations happen because black women are not given a space
00:32:00to breathe before being thrown into trying to care about somebody else. It's like, oh, care about me,
00:32:07care about me, care about me, care about me. And then here come black trans women like care about us as
00:32:11well. You know, and I think that what I want to do, and I understand that some of my sisters don't
00:32:17have this grace, they don't have this sort of empathy, and I understand, I get it. But what I
00:32:21want to do is I want to extend the hand to be able to say, you know what, take as much time as you need,
00:32:27and then let's have a talk. And once we have that talk, what I can tell you that I need from black
00:32:33cisgender women is to be our friends and our allies, even when we're not around. I need for black cisgender
00:32:40women to stop misgendering their friends because their husband misgenders us. I need for you to
00:32:46check your little boys when you hear them talking about the F word and the T word as they play video
00:32:52games with their friends across the Xboxes and this and that. I need for you to show up for me the same
00:32:58way that you show up for me in private spaces. I need you to do that in public spaces. I need you
00:33:04to cape for me like you want white women to cape for you at work. That is what I need from black
00:33:11cisgender women. I need love and I need sisterhood and I need to be invited into women's spaces because
00:33:16I am a woman. I need for you to see me in my fullness the same way that I see you and I respect
00:33:22you and I love you in your fullness. And at that point, I think when we're able to have those
00:33:28conversations, we'll be able to truly be intersectional and have these conversations.
00:33:33But we have to start with empathy and space and grace for black cisgender women to take a breather
00:33:39before we throw another set of issues that they don't understand, that they need time to grasp,
00:33:45you know, on them and ask them to, you know, kind of be here for another community who they're still
00:33:52trying to get to know. And I think that it's only fair to allow black women that space to get to know
00:33:58what is happening. And we have to do so with grace because we should as women, right? If we are women
00:34:05and we're black women and we're proud and we understand blackness, then we should also understand
00:34:09that black cisgender women need that same grace and that same space and that same respect and to be
00:34:15seen in the same ways that black trans women want to be seen and they don't get it either. And so there
00:34:20has to be a conversation around that and empathy before we really start asking and begging for,
00:34:26you know, black cis women to dive in to our issues as well.
00:34:30Yeah, I agree with most of what Hope said, but I take a slightly different position.
00:34:39Understanding that I think that self-care and loving yourself is the most important thing. And to her
00:34:44point, that should come first for everybody before you try to help anybody else. And of course,
00:34:49that doesn't happen enough for black women overall, for black cis women. And so that needs to be done
00:34:56first and we need to have an entirely different conversation about that. But I actually do believe
00:35:01that if you understand that the issues that affect black trans women and black women overall overlap and
00:35:09have a lot of similarity, then it's incumbent upon us to find ways to work together. Because the only
00:35:15people who are ultimately going to care about other women are other women. That's it, period. Nobody else.
00:35:22And so, and that's honestly the way that black women have gotten through throughout history,
00:35:27specifically since our time in enslavement in America, that we care about ourselves,
00:35:32we care about each other, and we find a way to support each other. I can't,
00:35:36I can't count on the number of hand, a number of fingers and hands, the number of times that I have
00:35:44been in a situation. And the only other person that studies me is another black woman. It can be if I'm
00:35:50in an airport trying to get on a plane. It can be if I am trying to find something in a store. It can be if
00:35:57I'm in a work environment. Like, that's the bottom line. Like, we're the only ones that are going to
00:36:01care about ourselves. And that means that we have to create space for each other. Just like I care
00:36:08desperately about femicide overall. I care desperately about the death of every single
00:36:14black cis woman. We need black women to care about us in the exact same way. You know, where are the
00:36:23sororities, I'm sorry, y'all, but where are the sororities in terms of speaking out when black
00:36:28trans women are murdered? Where are national organizations that are led by black women?
00:36:33Where, what, where are they in speaking up for our murders? Where, when we have conferences,
00:36:38are there conversations about gender and gender identity? Because those are the things that are,
00:36:43that are going to change, right? We're not going to stop the epidemic of violence against all of us.
00:36:49We're not going to be fully treated as human, all of us, until we find a way all women to come
00:36:55together to advance our, our, our own rights, to love on each other and to create space for us.
00:37:01It's not going to happen any other way. You know what? I don't feel in competition with another
00:37:05woman. And the reason why is because of patriarchy, right? Ultimately, no matter how you think another
00:37:12man is valuing you, you're ultimately not seen as equal. Your rights are not seen as equal. The only
00:37:17other person that's going to see your equality is another woman, period. And so I think it's really,
00:37:24really, really important, these divisions and the division between black cis women and black trans
00:37:30women is solely a result of patriarchy. It is a way to control, to say, these certain women are more
00:37:37valuable than you. And these certain women are so, are so less. So the closer that you stay to me and my
00:37:43manhood, to me and my patriarchal role, the more you support me as a black man, consequently, you will
00:37:53have more rights and more power because I, as a black man, I, as a white man, you fill in the man, has
00:37:59more power in the society. When that's just a ruse to actually help men stay in power. That's just a ruse to
00:38:05make sure that we stay tired, that we stay depressed, that we stay distracted, that we stay in a place of not
00:38:11feeling good about ourselves. The only people that are going to care about us is us. And we need to
00:38:16realize that and we need black cis led organizations to care about our deaths just as much as ours,
00:38:23because when they do, they'll understand that that's the only way that we're all going to get free.
00:38:30Period. And that's why I'm so glad we're having this conversation because this type of dialogue,
00:38:36this type of learning, this type of exchange is exactly what needs to happen in order for us to know
00:38:41what we need from each other in order to sustain and to identify what the real problem is
00:38:46and figure out how to rise above that. Great answers, please. Yeah, I'm sorry. Just one more
00:38:51thing. And it's rooted in what Hope said that I also think that like we all, all of us have power
00:38:57and we have agency and that's because we all have a voice. So let me just give you a quick example of
00:39:02the way in which I put up a post one day saying that if you are a black woman and you're not talking to
00:39:08people in your family about the plight of black trans women, you're failing. A friend of mine,
00:39:12who is a black woman, she's a mother of three kids. She wrote me back a note and she said,
00:39:17you know what, you're right. So what she did was she pulled together all the kids in her family
00:39:23and she pulled her son plays on a football of a college team. She pulled together his friends as
00:39:28well. And she read them the riot act on trans black trans women and women. Here's the way that I expect you to
00:39:34treat them. Here's the way that I expect you to talk about them. Here's how, you know, if you're
00:39:39a member of this family and this extended family, this is the way you're expected to behave. And if
00:39:44that happened in families across the country, just like your mama gives you the talk before you end up
00:39:49in the grocery store, like it would resonate and it would make a difference. You go in here and touch
00:39:54anything like it makes a difference and it resonates. And so I think that like those type of behaviors are
00:40:00things that you can do. And we need to show up for blacks to swim in the same way.
00:40:06I completely agree. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I also want to get back to the youth,
00:40:14because Hope you were talking about, um, how a lot of parents don't really have the resources
00:40:19to have those conversations with their children. Um, they don't know how to support their trans
00:40:25children. And recently we've been seeing, um, Dwayne Wade, his daughter, Zaya is trans. He has spoken
00:40:33about it. He's very proud of her. He uplifts her. And, um, it's also unfortunate because that is so rare.
00:40:41Right. But I think seeing that and having that example is great, you know, for that example to be
00:40:48available to parents, but what do you, um, advise parents who, you know, are struggling, you know, to
00:40:55connect and talk to their trans children or don't know what to say, don't have the resources or the
00:41:00support to really educate themselves? Um, what advice would you have for them?
00:41:06Well, what we saw Gabrielle do and what we saw Dwayne do, and I want to speak about Dwayne first and
00:41:13and then move into Gabrielle, Dwayne said on national television that he had to check himself.
00:41:20And I find that most Black men and especially most Black fathers with a lot of the issues around
00:41:27homosexuality and transness come from this ideology that you feel like you have claim over his manhood
00:41:34because you're his father. And, um, when that manhood is denounced, right, for something else that
00:41:41many men don't even realize that they don't really respect until another man denounces it,
00:41:47um, and decides to become something that is lesser, unequal, something that's seen as weaker.
00:41:53Um, that is when we see this, this, you know, what do you mean? What do you mean you're gay?
00:42:00What do you mean you, you, you're a woman? How dare you denounce something that was bestowed upon you?
00:42:06You have the right to be toxic. You have the right to, you know, walk in rooms and disregard the
00:42:13opinions of the feminine. How dare you turn that down to become the feminine? And, um, what was so
00:42:20beautiful to me was that Dwayne Wade, like straight up said that one of the first things that he had to
00:42:25do was check himself and realize that Ziya was a person, that she was a little person. She's not a mold of
00:42:34clay. She's not a spitting image. She's not a clone of who he is and who he's supposed to be. And he's
00:42:41also not, you know, another chance at living his life in a different way. And he recognized that very
00:42:48early on and was able to just, you know, understand and be willing to have those conversations. And I
00:42:54think first and foremost, parents have to have the conversations with their children. So after you
00:42:59brought this to the table, after you sat us down and you said, mom and dad, this is how I feel.
00:43:04Now, what we need for you to do with us is break this down. What does this mean for you? What does
00:43:10this mean for us? What do you expect from us? And here is what we expect from you as your parents,
00:43:16you know, as we have to have dynamic conversations with children. When I was growing up, I grew up in a
00:43:21house where my mama said my opinion didn't matter until I was grown. And if I didn't like her house,
00:43:25and if I didn't like her rules, I could leave. You know what I'm saying? And I think that a lot
00:43:29of Black children grow up in houses where we've all heard that, you know, you don't like my house,
00:43:34my rules. If you don't like it, you could leave. Or when you're 18 years old, you could do what you
00:43:37want to do. And I think that we have to dispel that, especially when it pertains to LGBT children
00:43:43or trans children, specifically coming and saying, this is how I am. This is what I feel. Instead of
00:43:49dismissing those feelings and instead of pulling the whole, because I said so card, I think that it'll be
00:43:55important. I think it'll be a lot more beneficial to a lot of Black parents to just hear out the
00:44:00reasoning, to just hear out the emotions and the feelings and the work that's been done.
00:44:05I remember last year, my little sister and my mom were writing. My mom called me and my mom was just
00:44:11like all excited about, you know, this conversation. She was like, I got to tell you, I got to tell you.
00:44:15And I was like, what's up? And so she's like, well, I was riding in the car with my baby sister,
00:44:20who was only nine. And she was like, I was riding in the car with her on the way home from school.
00:44:24And she said something about how one of her friends said that she was a lesbian. Now,
00:44:30my little sister is nine, which means that this other little girl is also just about nine,
00:44:34maybe eight years old. And my mom was shook. She was like, I was sitting in the driver's seat,
00:44:39trying not to make eye contact because I was that shook. And my mom said, you know what,
00:44:44this is an opportunity for me to ask her or to talk to her about you. And she took it.
00:44:50And so my mom said, well, do you know what hope is? And she said, yeah, I hope it's trans.
00:44:59And my mom was like, my jaw just kept dropping because this is a nine year old. This is my baby.
00:45:06And my mom, my mom has never had this conversation with my sister. I've never had this conversation,
00:45:09not with my baby sister. So the fact that she has done some sort of research and is aware of the,
00:45:15is aware of the world in this way is mind blowing to my mother. And so the conversation continues.
00:45:21And she's just like, well, and what do you think about that? And she's like, well, she's my sister
00:45:26and I love her. And, you know, I'm, you know, we call her she, and, you know, that's just how that
00:45:31goes. And, and my mom is floored, floored. And she called me because she was just like, my baby is so,
00:45:41she's, and in my mind, I wanted to be like, yeah, she weighs, she's way more woke than you were. But
00:45:45you know, like, it was one of those things where I think that when we, when we hear those questions,
00:45:50that's like, well, what does a three year old know? Or how can a five year old come to you and say
00:45:54that they, if a nine year old can understand it, then most certainly a five year old can come to you
00:45:59and express it. A three year old can come to you and express it. Three year olds are telling you what
00:46:03they want for dinner. They can say they want to go to McDonald's and they can say they want to watch a
00:46:07specific television show. And we believe that, and we, we listen to those things and we hone in
00:46:12on those things. But for a child to tell you that they know who they are, it's like, oh, that's asinine.
00:46:16And I think that that situation made me so proud because it was research and it was, it was research
00:46:22that I'm sure she didn't take his research, but my little sister, once she caught that there was
00:46:27something different about her big sister, she took the time to figure out what it was. We didn't have to
00:46:33tell her. She figured it out. She realized that she was cool with it. She got the pronouns correct
00:46:38before everybody else in the house did. You know, she was, she was on it. And I think that if a lot
00:46:44of, if a lot more parents took the time to do that, we would have a lot more comprehensive,
00:46:51loving family dynamics with trans and LGBT folk. And as it pertains to Gabrielle, what she said that
00:46:58she did was that she reached out to every single trans person she knew. She called Angelica Ross.
00:47:05She called India Moore. She called, she pulled out the big guns. And obviously because she's a celebrity,
00:47:09she has a little bit more pull and access than a lot of, you know, everyday people. But I think that
00:47:14that's also important. Research the people that are doing the work. Go hop on YouTube, like you do for
00:47:18everything else. Hop on the Google, like you do for everything else and reach out, see what people are
00:47:24putting out. See if you can email somebody and if they're willing to take time and talk back and
00:47:29forth. I get parents all the time who have seen my videos and been like, Hope, I saw this video
00:47:33about you and your mom. And I thank you so much because it helped me because I realized that I was
00:47:36about to do that to my child. And I thank you so, you know, and it's one of those things where it's
00:47:40just like, all you have to do is do the research, reach out and see what's out there and what speaks
00:47:45to your soul and your style of parenting and grab a hold of it and then implement it, right? And work
00:47:51through the kinks. Find you a trauma buddy that's going to be able to help you when you do get to
00:47:57those points where it's like, oh, I want to be supportive. I want to be a supportive mom, but I
00:48:02can't. She wearing dresses too soon for me. I can't. Find you somebody. Find somebody that's going to be
00:48:09there for you. That's going to, you know, hold your hand through it and be like, okay, girl, it's another
00:48:13milestone. I'm with you. I'm here with you. Find you a male friend that's like, I'm here with you.
00:48:21I got your back. We're in this. We're respecting our children. And I think until we do that and
00:48:28until we are actually listening and until we're actually doing the research and doing the work
00:48:32and making sure that we're bringing in that comprehensive conversation, you know, we're not
00:48:36going to get anywhere. But I think that with Gabrielle and Dwayne, I think that they've started
00:48:40something and I truly appreciate them for that.
00:48:43Yes. It's an incredible thing to witness. What do you think about that, Mara?
00:48:52You're still on mute.
00:48:53I think you're muted.
00:48:55I have no control over whether or not I'm muted or not. So what do I think? I think that it's an
00:49:05amazing celebration of family, right? Isn't that what we want family to be? Isn't that where it's a
00:49:12place where we learn and we grow and we are challenged? We figure out ways to support each
00:49:20other into being ourselves. Dwayne Wade has had to grow. Gabrielle has had to grow. Ziya has had to
00:49:26grow as well, has helped lead the way, but needed their support. I mean, it's an amazing picture of
00:49:31family. And honestly, it's a picture of non patriarchal family. And I think that that's one of the
00:49:39ways that so many people online have so many problems with it and which is totally disgusting
00:49:45because it's not this idea that there is this hierarchy in which Dwayne Wade is the certain
00:49:51picture of a certain type of masculinity and everyone else falls in line and mimics that. I always say,
00:49:56if you want to be a king, start acting like one. And a part of being a king is about generosity and
00:50:03magnanimity and humility, right? It's not about dominance, true kingship, true royalty. And so,
00:50:11consequently, that's what I think is amazing about them and about their story is that it's honestly,
00:50:17her journey has made them into a family, right? And has made them into a better family. And that's
00:50:24incredibly powerful and incredibly inspirational and is something for everybody, no matter who you are,
00:50:32to mimic and to model and to find out how to create that in your own family.
00:50:40It's beautiful to see. And everybody supports Zaya, her brother, you know, like, it's just,
00:50:47it's an incredible family dynamic and such a positive example. By the way, if you guys are watching this,
00:50:53anyone watching this, anyone just tuning in, please send questions in the comments for Amara and Hope.
00:50:58I want to make sure that they're able to answer questions that you have, as well as the ones I have.
00:51:04I did want to get into some government stuff because Trump has recently passed some laws
00:51:11that negatively affect trans people and healthcare. And so I want to just kind of have you guys walk us
00:51:18through what those laws are and what are the real world implications that they have on trans people
00:51:24and healthcare that they have access to?
00:51:27Yeah. So it's a complicated situation after the Supreme Court ruling, because at some point,
00:51:34those rules may become null and void. We'll just have to see. But the bottom line is that Trump,
00:51:40it is the latest measure of anti-trans moves that the Trump administration has made since going into
00:51:48office, right? They've denied trans people protect civil rights protections in education and in schools.
00:51:55They have kicked trans people out of the military and banned trans people from coming into the military.
00:52:02They've banned protections for trans people in the workplace, specifically through the government.
00:52:08The government's the single largest employee in the country, as well as government contracts. And this
00:52:13continues to crescendo in terms of where we are now on healthcare, which is that they changed a massive
00:52:20shift in medical care that came with Obamacare. Obamacare ruled that you could not discriminate
00:52:28against trans people in medical care. And what that has meant in two really important areas is that,
00:52:35one, it's meant that insurance companies and government healthcare programs are not
00:52:43able to block trans people from getting the life-saving care that we need with respect to transition
00:52:48services, i.e. hormones and surgeries for people who choose or need them. But we know that these
00:52:56transition services keep trans people alive, period. The second way is that it stops people from
00:53:03denying healthcare to trans people just because they were trans. And that's really important because
00:53:08one out of three trans people has experienced discrimination in healthcare. Me, for example,
00:53:14I went to an emergency room with a stomach problem. My primary care doctor knew that it was a stomach
00:53:21issue, a stomach that I needed antibiotics, told me to go to the emergency room. But when I went to the
00:53:26emergency room, the doctor that treated me was convinced that I was a sex worker, was very curious about
00:53:33what I did, what types of sex I was having when the last time I had sex was, and ended up prescribing
00:53:38me an antibiotic that was relevant for an STD and not for the stomach bug that I had, which meant that
00:53:44I was sick for another six weeks. And so that type of discrimination means that it's less likely for us
00:53:52to go to healthcare and receive healthcare when we really need. And that's not what you want when there's
00:53:57a pandemic for people to fear that. And so both those types of barriers to us being healthy were
00:54:04eliminated with Obamacare. And the Trump administration essentially said that you can
00:54:08discriminate against people based on the fact that they're trans, period. And it has really terrible
00:54:13implications for all of the reasons that I said. Luckily, given the rationale of the Supreme Court
00:54:20ruling, which says that you can't discriminate against trans people in employment, there are likely
00:54:25going to be court cases and rulings that will extend that to a lot of other areas, but the healthcare
00:54:32rule that they announced still stands. And it's just the latest in them targeting trans people because
00:54:38like Hope said, the Trump administration believes that people don't see us as people, so they're not
00:54:43going to care. A large part of the Trump administration's base are people who are anti-trans. They really care
00:54:51about doing away with us. And so the Trump administration has turned the government
00:54:56to be able to try to do that in every way imaginable.
00:55:05Yeah, that is, it's kind of mind blowing. Forgive me for being speechless. It's just crazy that
00:55:12this is happening in 2020. But I do hope that these laws do not have a long lasting effect and will not
00:55:20be in place for much longer. Because that is just ridiculous. I want to throw to this audience
00:55:26question, which I thought was really interesting. Someone asked, do you feel black men have a
00:55:32responsibility to check other black men for assaulting other black, black trans women in order for it to
00:55:39stop? Yes. Right. Yes. Black, black men have a responsibility and a duty to check black men for
00:55:49being problematic and toxic in general. When we are watching videos of black women being stuffed into
00:55:56industrial garbage cans, as black men record and laugh, when we are watching a video of 30 plus people
00:56:05that include black cisgender women, but mostly black men stomp on a girl that is this big around,
00:56:12no more than five foot five over a fender bender. When we are watching Snoop Dogg get onto his profile
00:56:20with his millions of followers and outrageously berate and belittle a black woman as people make
00:56:30memes of it and make light of it, that is a problem. That is an inherent problem is that we let black men
00:56:38get away with bloody murder while turning around and rewarding them with our voices and our bodies
00:56:47for being killed. Now, is that me saying that black men dying at the hands of white people
00:56:51for the sake of white people feeling superior is okay? Absolutely not. But what I am saying is that
00:56:56black men, you have to do better. You cannot just hold the white man accountable for his transgressions
00:57:02while committing your own. You cannot be upset about the white man putting his thumb on your neck,
00:57:08his foot on your back, while you're turning around and doing the same thing and being the oppressors in
00:57:12your own community. And when you tell black men this, when you remind black men that they do have the
00:57:18privilege of being those same types of oppressors in their own community, they are so hung up. And the
00:57:25thought process that they are victimized by white men that they forget that they are victimizing
00:57:29the people that are in their community that support them. Regardless of whether or not these black men
00:57:35care about LGBT issues or seek valid or see validation in black trans women, we are out there.
00:57:42We are marching. We are getting arrested. We are putting our bodies on the line for somebody
00:57:47who might have seen an article about me being dead and said, oh, well, but we are still there. Black women
00:57:55have been exposed. And I hate to say it, but black women back in the day, and I'm not sure if the
00:58:01statistics are still the same, but we do know that back in the day, black women were exposed to HIV and
00:58:07AIDS from black men and black women were still protecting and defending. There are so many things
00:58:17that we allow black men to get away. As black trans women, some of us are still engaging in DL culture.
00:58:22When we get up at three o'clock in the morning and allow these men in our homes and our houses
00:58:27and to come and have places to sleep and places to eat and places to seek solace and places to be
00:58:31yourself. And you guys can't do the bare minimum at calling out transphobia. You're laying up with
00:58:38trans women. You're loving on trans women. You are providing in some spaces, depending on, you know,
00:58:43their capital. They are providing homes for trans women. Don't get it twisted. These men are,
00:58:49some of them are buying condos and cars and bags and living a whole other life with trans women.
00:58:58But then when things like this happen, they are silent. And that is a problem. And it is not just
00:59:02with trans women. It is with the entire community. Because I think that the thing that we all are
00:59:07afraid to say is that black men are selfish. They have been selfish and they will continue to be selfish
00:59:15until we all gather up. Everybody. The black men that don't believe in that, the gay men,
00:59:23the trans women, the cis women, until we all get together and say, hey, King, I see you and I know
00:59:33what you're going through. But that does not justify you belittling black women. That does not justify
00:59:40you killing black women and black trans women. That does not justify you vilifying and emasculating
00:59:48black gay men. They're going to continue to do what they do over and over. They have a duty.
00:59:53And if you don't see yourself as one of those people that I've just described,
00:59:57if you are not one of those men, don't get mad at me for saying that.
01:00:01Go and get mad at your brothers for being a part or making you a part of the monolith
01:00:05that people see on the outside. Because what I want to ask people is if you weren't black,
01:00:12how would you feel about black men? If you weren't black, how would you feel?
01:00:20Because as a black woman, it's easy for me to turn around and say, you know what, but I get it.
01:00:24I understand. As messed up as it is, we got to support them. But I can't say that I would feel the
01:00:34same way if I was white. I can't say that I would feel the same way if I were Asian or if I just
01:00:41didn't belong to this culture and I didn't understand the bouts of masculinity and I didn't
01:00:47understand the upbringing and the raising of black men and the way that they're buckbroken by their
01:00:51fathers and the way that they're socialized by the housing projects that the government sticks us in
01:00:57to raise these pit bull, these savage men. If I weren't black, I would be afraid of black men.
01:01:06And that's a problem because there are people who are. And so until black men start holding other
01:01:12black men accountable, unfortunately, the reality of the situation is you're going to continue to see
01:01:19white women using their white privilege to call the police because they're afraid. Because when they
01:01:24see black men, they see videos of black men tossing women into trash cans. When they see black men,
01:01:30they don't care about the fact that Ayanna was France. All they see is 30 black men beating up on a
01:01:35girl. When they see black men, they see black men in videos disrespecting black women. When they see
01:01:42black men, they see visions of Snoop Dogg disrespecting Gayle King. It's easy to see these publicized images
01:01:51of black men doing wrong. And you know why that is? It's because other black men allow it to happen
01:01:58unchecked. You allow your brothers to do these things unchecked. There are some organizations
01:02:07that I see every now and then, and there's always this post that's like, oh, these are the visions of
01:02:11black men that they don't want you to see. But those are the visions of black men that y'all don't share.
01:02:16Y'all share the videos of Snoop Dogg and you guys laugh. Y'all share the video of black men behaving
01:02:24badly and you laugh. You share the videos of black men disrespecting black women at every turn and you
01:02:30laugh. You share pictures of other women of other races and say, this is the only thing that I want.
01:02:37If my children don't look mixed like this, then I don't want you. You say things like I can't date black
01:02:42dark skinned women because I don't want super dark children. And you think that people outside of
01:02:47our race don't see that, but they do. You think that people think that you're intimidating because
01:02:54of the color of your skin, but it's not just that anymore. People think that black men are intimidating
01:02:59for the same reason that some black trans women are afraid of you all, because we're not sure how
01:03:05your blackness is going to show up that day. As a black woman who was marching, who was protesting,
01:03:12I wasn't just worried about whether or not the cops were going to do something to me.
01:03:16I was worried about whether or not a black man was going to turn around and see my sign that said black
01:03:21trans lives matter or see a sign that I had that said all black lives matter and was going to punch me in
01:03:28my face. Do you know how many people, how many black men gave me dirty looks as I was out there
01:03:35marching for black men, as I was out there marching for George Floyd? How many black men turned around
01:03:43and looked at me disgusted? And how many other black men looked at me in sympathy but said nothing
01:03:53to check those people that might have decided that in the midst of all of this transgression,
01:03:59as we're fighting white supremacy, I'm going to turn around and slap this black trans woman because
01:04:05you're not a part of the movement. When we are seeing videos of hope tips that get 20,000 views
01:04:12with an angry black man yelling let's dismantle the movement because it's been co-opted by black trans
01:04:20people. And you are seeing people donate to this cause. You are seeing people give their money,
01:04:25their thoughts heavily to this cause. But a black woman who's starting a business can't get y'all to
01:04:32do the same thing. But a black trans woman who was killed wrongfully can't get your sympathy,
01:04:38your support, your empathy. But this black man who is enraged, who knows about the kingdoms,
01:04:48who's been to Egypt and commits and all of these other things. Y'all are giving your money to hate.
01:04:55And there are some of you black men that allow it to happen. Y'all allow these men to beat us,
01:05:02to trash talk us, to throw us. Because you can't tell me there wasn't at least one black man
01:05:08in that video where that young girl was tossed into that trash can that didn't feel bad.
01:05:12There was one. There was one of them that could have saved her and he chose not to because his
01:05:19masculinity was more important. And I'm sorry, but I feel strongly about this. Because fellas,
01:05:27you have to. In spaces where we are not strong enough, where in spaces where our voices are not
01:05:33valued, in spaces that women, period, in spaces that LGBT black folk, period, can't get into,
01:05:43we need the cis men to speak up and check your brothers.
01:05:46Thank you so much. I 100% agree. I feel like speaking up, having those conversations and not
01:05:56being afraid to be the one to say, this is wrong. Why are we doing this? Why are you doing that to
01:06:01her? Why are you doing that? That is where change happens. And so I would just really appreciate you
01:06:08for speaking on that and for answering that question. Ladies, I feel like I could talk to
01:06:13you all day. I feel so honored and privileged to have had this conversation with both of you. You're
01:06:19both so brilliant and dropped so many gems today. And I feel grateful for the education and the honesty.
01:06:27Please let people know where they can find you, follow you, support your causes, your organizations,
01:06:32and also continue the conversation on your platforms. For me, you can follow me at Amara Jones
01:06:41across all social media. It's very easy. For TransLash, you can actually go to TransLash.org and
01:06:47sign up for our newsletter and you'll get a video from me each week as well as our resources that we
01:06:53have that week. And you can follow TransLash Media across all of the social media platforms as well.
01:06:59And before we wrap, I just wanted to thank you again, Jasmine, and of course, my sister Hope.
01:07:04But I also wanted to give a massive shout out to two things that I think are really important.
01:07:08First, for everyone to understand that the leadership of Black trans women is really important
01:07:13to our movement and to our country. There's something called the Trans Liberation Agenda that
01:07:20was developed in part by a Black woman and says that the leadership of Black trans women is important.
01:07:26So go find out about that. And also, 100%, a shout out to the Oprah Project for the girls,
01:07:34Glitz, and all of the organizations that made history last week by pulling together what I think
01:07:40is the largest march for trans rights in history centered on Black trans women. Amazing words were
01:07:47given by so many people, Ian Fields Stewart, Raquel Willis, Kyan as well from Glitz, and also Lailene
01:07:56Polanco's family. And so we have to keep in mind that Black trans women are leading in this moment.
01:08:03Leaders. Amen. Amen.
01:08:05So I can be found at Hope Disguised across all social media. And also, you can go and visit my
01:08:14website, which is hopegiselle.com, which also has all of my other stuff. My book can also be purchased
01:08:21if you literally just Google my name. There's like a bunch of links for you to purchase that. But I would
01:08:25prefer for you guys to go to the link in my Instagram bio because that money comes directly
01:08:29back to me. For those of you all who didn't notice, I have my cash app as my name, because I think that
01:08:35it's important that you guys know that the best way to support trans women is to actually give
01:08:40directly to them financially, but also to support all women. Give directly to them, give them in
01:08:46their pockets, and stop paying these organizations that are pretending to do work for us and then
01:08:51pocketing that money to go and do white vacation on a golf course. You know, and so same sentiments.
01:08:59Thank you, Jasmine, for reaching out to both myself and Amara. Like I told you, when you first
01:09:05extended the invitation, I know Amara was going to bring it, and she fed my soul today. And I hope
01:09:09that she fed everybody else's soul on today. And I thank everybody for listening, you know, and having
01:09:15an open mind on this platform. And if you want to continue those, you know, conversations, make sure
01:09:19that you are following myself and Amara. Hope Disguised, Amara Jones, make sure y'all are on it,
01:09:24because these are the people that are doing it daily, right? And we're the people that don't
01:09:29get paid the big bucks. Ryan Murphy doesn't cut our checks, you know. So make sure that, you know,
01:09:36you all are following the people that are doing the work on the ground as well as the girls who
01:09:40give you life on television. Correct. Absolutely. And make sure if you're watching this, please don't
01:09:45let this be the last conversation that you have. Please extend these conversations with your family.
01:09:50Like they were saying, check people when you see them doing things and saying things that you know
01:09:55are not right. And please continue to educate yourself because there's so much information out
01:09:59there. And these two ladies have a lot of information on their platforms that I encourage
01:10:04everybody to check out. Thank you so much for being here. We see you. We love the work you're doing,
01:10:10and we hope this is not the last of our conversations together. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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