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On this week's episode, we talk about homophobia in the Black community with panelists Tracy G, Abiola Abrams, Kazeem Famuyide and Michael Arcenaux unpacking gender labels, controversial laws, and sexuality in relation to faith, Dana Blair and Sheree
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00:00Today on Essence Live, our kitchen table talk series is back and this conversation is going to be good.
00:07We're talking all about homophobia and changing gender norms.
00:10Is the black community really more homophobic than others?
00:13And does Jada Smith rocking a skirt mean he has more swag or he is just confused?
00:17We've got special guests, drinks and some tasty bites from our chef.
00:20Get ready because this is a conversation you do not want to miss.
00:23It is Thursday, May 12th and Essence Live starts now.
00:30Welcome to Essence Live's kitchen table talk series. I'm your host, Dana Blair.
00:39And in the kitchen with me today are some very special guests.
00:42Please welcome Sway in the Morning co-host Tracy G.
00:45Humans, cheers.
00:47Journalist Michael Arsenault.
00:49Hello, Houston.
00:50Author and advice columnist Abiola Abrams.
00:53Sacred bombshells, what's up?
00:55And Kasim Fahmude, founder of The Stash, which started online but is now in print.
00:59Yes, buy it.
01:00Plus we also have Chef Teddy from Ted Mac's Food Shack.
01:03First, I want to talk about what's happening in the news.
01:06Laws that are springing up in conservative states.
01:08Georgia's religious liberty law, which allowed churches to opt out of conducting same-sex marriages.
01:13Then there are the quote-unquote bathroom laws in other states that say people must use the same bathroom of the same sex they were born as.
01:20A lot of people are saying these laws are anti-transgender.
01:23Okay, so this is just a few things that are coming up.
01:25What do y'all think?
01:26And does anyone and should everyone care?
01:29Just jump right on in.
01:30I think we should absolutely care.
01:32And I'm so glad.
01:33Kudos to you for having this conversation.
01:35Because I always get infuriated when I think about us as oppressed people wanting to oppress others.
01:41Like it honestly does not make sense in my head.
01:44It doesn't compute.
01:45It's weird to me because it's like, I don't spend that much time in the bathroom anyway.
01:49You get in, you pee, you wash your hands, you get out.
01:52I don't even have enough time to process like, is this a real man?
01:55Is this a real woman?
01:56Gender and sexuality are not necessarily intertwined, but there is a common prejudice against both.
02:01It reminds me of a couple of things that one, they should have been expected because majorly white, upper middle-class men were pushing the marriage equality movement,
02:10which benefits everyone who wants to be married.
02:13But beyond that heteronormative stance, the reality is there are still laws on the books that anyone can be fired for their sexuality.
02:20It's definitely a backlash to change is what happened to women when they wanted, when they had the right to have abortion or like just in response to feminism.
02:28Like this always happens and we're never collectively prepared on the progressive end.
02:34It's a reminder that we need to continue to be focused on like, you know, just because we get one thing doesn't mean like a wave of other things won't happen right after.
02:41There's these two E words that are so absent in these times and it's such a damn shame and it's empathy and education.
02:49And empathy is really just being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
02:54That way, even if you're not walking their narrative, you understand what pain is like can be transferable to you.
03:00Education because we're just afraid of everything that's unknown.
03:04And I'm like, if we're moving to a space where marriage equality is accepted by all, okay, watching two people walk down the aisle, why do you care if it's a penis or another P word?
03:16I don't know if we can use that.
03:17Right.
03:18No, we cannot.
03:19Okay, if it is a penis or a vagina, you know what I mean?
03:23Like we've already crossed such a major threshold, which is the aisle and now we care about the toilet?
03:29Well, when they put up the city ordinance, they made it essentially like don't let men in girls' restrooms, which is a big misrepresentation of what, you know, being trans is.
03:40Right.
03:41But if that prejudice allowed people to vote against their own interests, not realizing now that that law is not there, then that affects you.
03:50Someone can easily turn that around about you.
03:52Like ultimately this is still a prejudice and it's a conservative movement pushing set prejudice that will eventually kind of like be used back door to you.
03:59Because in some ways like trans are facing, like trans people are facing another thing.
04:02I'm facing something as a gay man.
04:03I'm facing it as a black person.
04:05It's all interconnected.
04:06Absolutely.
04:07So people need to be very aware of like when you vote for one prejudice, just giving somebody permission to then put that on you.
04:12The intersectionality I think is something that's really important to talk about because we act like, you know, it's completely isolated.
04:18Like this is a gay issue.
04:19This is a black issue.
04:20This is a woman's issue.
04:21Right.
04:22But we are, as Michael said, you know, all like many different things.
04:25You know, I'm black.
04:26I'm a woman.
04:27I'm, you know, daughter of immigrants.
04:28Like we all cross into different arenas and areas.
04:32And I think that, you know, when we, that's what allows us, as you said, you know, to vote against our own interests when we start to put people in boxes and think this doesn't apply to me.
04:40Or we have like a competition for suffering amongst oppression, oppressed people.
04:44Like the black issue is more important than the gay issue.
04:48Right.
04:49But he can't separate himself.
04:50I can't separate myself.
04:51We can't separate the different parts of ourselves.
04:53Like I'm a straight man.
04:54Like it doesn't, it's a law that I guess on the surface doesn't affect me.
04:57But at the same time, a lot of the, a lot of the laws that got passed through the civil rights movement didn't just get passed by black people.
05:04It got passed by people who look outside of themselves.
05:06So it takes people like myself and other people like me to be like, listen, this is much bigger than you.
05:11You know what I mean?
05:12Like you have to let your voice be heard.
05:13I guess the difference is it's a lot of folks believing that sexuality, your sexual orientation is a choice.
05:19Mm-hmm.
05:20And then the argument would be made, hey, when I popped out the womb, this was the flesh that I came through in.
05:25You know, there's many people that feel like you can pray it away.
05:27Or you have, we've seen people on social media or in the news say, you know, well, I was gay or I was feeling this way, but now I'm safe.
05:34So now everything is fine.
05:35Mm-hmm.
05:36Okay.
05:37Was homeboy's name that did that before?
05:38Delivered.
05:39Delivered.
05:40Delivered.
05:41Delivered.
05:42Delivered.
05:43Yeah, whatever, sweetie.
05:44Don't be so quick to compare something to a specific movement.
05:47Black people also realize you don't own the term civil rights.
05:49Mm-hmm.
05:50Very good point.
05:51The Black Lives Matter movement is very much a civil rights movement of this era.
05:56Suffrage movement.
05:57The same thing.
05:58Civil rights, I think people have kind of like anointed these words to mean only like one thing to one group of people and that's unfair to everybody.
06:06And even with the you can pray it away thing, I think in general most people are not really that particularly bright and they have very sophomoric understandings of like sexuality and gender.
06:15Go back to education, yeah.
06:16It's just like there are several hundred species of like gays that have homosexuality.
06:21This idea that you can just pray it away.
06:23I think people confuse suppression with a cure.
06:26Mm-hmm.
06:27And it points to the very juvenile understanding of the way human sexuality works.
06:31Mm-hmm.
06:32And I think there are people within like religious communities and spiritual communities that challenge that but not enough people actively try to.
06:39That's when it gets, you know, dangerous though.
06:41Yeah.
06:42Because once you tell people like, hey, that's kind of like a childish way to think that you can just pray something away, that's when they get defensive.
06:48That's when they're like.
06:49It's my faith.
06:50Like, this is my faith.
06:51This is what I'm thinking.
06:52But then you can just use different language to explain it to them that I'm a daughter of a minister and I've had this conversation in my family before because I think that it's important that we challenge the people that we love.
07:01Right.
07:02And so, you know, I didn't say to my father or to other people, well, that's a childish way to think, you know.
07:06Right, right, right.
07:07But I was like, well, you know, let me get this straight.
07:10Let me just understand where you're coming from.
07:12You are a black man who was discriminated against in corporate America for X amount of years.
07:16Mm-hmm.
07:17You know, you are an immigrant who was discriminated against for these reasons.
07:22So tell me again what your thought, you know, and so you can have a conversation with people.
07:26Right.
07:27You know, and begin to.
07:28But you know what sucks is a lot of times, and this leans more on the civil rights aspect, a lot of times we glorify our scars.
07:36If someone does bring up the example of doesn't civil rights align with the rights of the LGBT community.
07:42And it's like, no, you know what we did.
07:44Gotcha.
07:45You know all of this where that just becomes a center of conversation.
07:47Mm-hmm.
07:48And I'm not trying to strip that factor away because it is a piece of who you are.
07:53It's a piece of our history, of our legacy, of everything that's been toiled on this earth.
07:57But there's also another human experience that's been had.
08:02Right.
08:03And if we open it up and again, just like activated empathy, you would see a string.
08:07Of course there's nuances on that string.
08:10Mm-hmm.
08:11But alone, it's pain.
08:12Mm-hmm.
08:13It's prejudice.
08:14It's all common thread and we are all connected.
08:16Exactly.
08:17And hold these thoughts because we have some more food, more conversation.
08:19Yes.
08:20Yes.
08:21Yay.
08:22Yay.
08:23When we come back, we'll talk specifically about homophobia in the black community.
08:28Is this still a thing?
08:29More Essence Live is up next.
08:31Y'all smell good.
08:32Yeah.
08:33These are the top five most annoying questions I get about The Walking Dead.
08:37Number five.
08:38How was it?
08:39Because it's like, I don't know what that means.
08:41I don't know.
08:42It was great.
08:43I don't know what you want me to say here.
08:44And it's just like, it's always like, how was it?
08:48And that's it.
08:49Number four.
08:50What similarities are there to The Walking Dead and Everybody Hates Chris?
08:54None.
08:55They're none.
08:56They're none.
08:57No, there aren't any.
08:58I don't know how you would want me to put those two together.
08:59I can't.
09:00Number three.
09:01So like, what can you tell us that you're not supposed to?
09:05By asking that question, you're already answering your own question.
09:09Nothing.
09:10I'm not going to be sued by AMC for an interview.
09:14I'm just, I'm just not.
09:16Number two.
09:17So like, do you die?
09:19Yeah.
09:20Yes.
09:21Really aggressively I die.
09:22Yes.
09:23I do.
09:24Thank you for doing your research on this interview.
09:26Thank you for looking that up.
09:28The number one, number one worst thing.
09:32Some people want to like redo the fish hook for some reason.
09:35So like, we're doing this joke and it'd be great for our segment.
09:38Can I like, put my fingers in your mouth?
09:40No.
09:41No.
09:42You can't put your fingers in my mouth.
09:44Most human beings would say no to that.
09:46And those were the most annoying questions I get about The Walking Dead.
09:50And these are all interview questions, by the way.
09:51It's not like I'm just getting asked by people on the street.
09:53These are people whose job it is to professionally ask questions.
09:56And these are some of the worst things that I've ever heard in my life.
09:59Welcome back to Essence Live.
10:00I'm your host, Dana Blair.
10:01And for today's kitchen table talk, we're discussing homophobia, changing gender norms,
10:05and more with some very special guests.
10:07Chef Teddy, what have you made for us today?
10:09Because it smells good.
10:10Hello, everybody.
10:11How's everybody doing today?
10:12Hello, hello.
10:13Doing hungry.
10:14I just want to explain this to y'all.
10:15Talk to me.
10:16This is my mother's famous fried chicken.
10:17So we have a secret batter that we use to actually fry the chicken.
10:20And because I love to drink a little.
10:22Yeah.
10:23So I make my own special glaze that go over the chicken.
10:26Uh-huh.
10:27So it's Chili's honey and Hennessy.
10:28So I infuse the honey with Hennessy.
10:30Yes.
10:31You said Hennessy.
10:32He was like, he's exotic.
10:33Right.
10:34I do like a little bit more spice.
10:35I have sriracha right there.
10:36Mmm.
10:37So I pass it on.
10:38I want you guys to taste it.
10:39Tell me what you think.
10:40While y'all all munch away, we're going to jump right back into it.
10:42We've noticed here at Essence that whenever we post anything about the LGBT community,
10:45or even just news about men doing things outside of the gender norm,
10:49a lot of readers get very agitated.
10:51And y'all let us know on social media in the comments section.
10:54So, for example, when we featured Laverne Cox on our July 2015 cover,
10:58a lot of people said she was not, quote, a real woman.
11:02And just this week on Facebook post about Jaden Smith having swag, one reader named Rosita
11:07Kaysen, yes we called you out, said,
11:09I don't understand why it's wrong to believe boys should dress in attire for boys and girls
11:15the same.
11:16Those of us who believe that, we have just as much right to our opinion as anyone else.
11:21Okay.
11:22If I was Rosita, here's what I would ask myself.
11:25What threatens me so much about him or other people's self-identification?
11:32Why does that scare you so much?
11:34That there's something within you that you need to look at.
11:36In the case of Jaden Smith, it's an attack on the masculinity of the black community.
11:41You know what I mean?
11:42I'm always hearing people say that.
11:43And I'm like, in actuality, this is a gift.
11:46It's the gift of identities.
11:50It's the pluralizing of the male identity, which I feel like for many years has been missing.
11:56I feel like, and I think for men in general, it's just either been you're a man or you're gay.
12:01Whatever that's called.
12:03But for women, there's so many different options for us.
12:07Essence magazine caters to black women.
12:10Therefore, the majority of the transphobia and homophobia that you will experience
12:15will be through other black people.
12:17I am a black man.
12:18Most of the homophobia that I've experienced has been through black people.
12:22That is because I've only been majority around black people.
12:26However, reality is, who is to say that black people are the most homophobic of the bunch?
12:30We're out here more than one.
12:31Well, perhaps that we're the most vocal about it.
12:33Yeah.
12:34Well, I don't think we're vocal.
12:35When you say we're vocal, but like, who are you talking to?
12:37Because if I step into a white space, I'm going to get racism and homophobia and all types of other stuff.
12:42And even when you talk about the preservation of black masculinity, which is a very stupid
12:46hotep, I understand that.
12:48But that is also, you have to trace what that comes from.
12:51That is ultimately traced to like a white supremacist idea of like emasculating black men.
12:56It is up to black men and black women and black people together to challenge that and to let it be known that you do no longer have to live up to that, what has been forced upon you.
13:05Right.
13:06But that alone does not mean we are more than anyone else.
13:10Are you suggesting that the root is in the white community?
13:16And that's where, because if we're just speaking about homosexuality as a whole, it, yes, in a black conversation, we have to speak about how it isn't really working within us.
13:25The same way how there's no one likes all lives matter.
13:28What?
13:29Black lives matter.
13:30So the conversation about black homophobia.
13:32It doesn't excuse what exists within our community.
13:35But I think it's a dishonest conversation to challenge us to be better by starting with the false premise that we are more deficient and we are worse off than anyone else.
13:44Because that makes it a disingenuous conversation.
13:46It makes it a dishonest conversation.
13:48People get defensive and then we get stuck.
13:50Yeah.
13:51Because then I have to say, no, that's not true.
13:53You're having me defend people I don't even agree with who don't even value me.
13:56Value you, right.
13:57But I have to also always understand and contextualize, why do you feel the way that you do about people like me, my trans sisters and friends, and you?
14:06Like, all of these people, like, where does that come from?
14:09I need to know where that comes from before I'm gonna really challenge where you're that way.
14:14Justine, can I get your thoughts on this?
14:15I guess today, if you go on any YouTube comment section, when you see those, you know, conspiracy theory videos or whatever, they would look up and be like, hey, this is what they do to us.
14:24They take, you know, your biggest black superstars, your biggest black actors, and they gotta dress up as a woman, and they gotta do this, and this, they're trying to demasculate us.
14:33And I think that just kind of boils down to us, you know?
14:36And again, it's weird for us to talk about it because we all work in entertainment, but it's like, yo, we hold celebrities to such a high standard.
14:42I mean, just a high platform for what reason?
14:45You know what I'm saying? Like entertainers.
14:46But I also feel like, too, like, we were harder on Jaden versus a Kanye.
14:49No, I mean, like, my thing is, like, Jaden doesn't have swag because he wears a dress.
14:53Jaden has swag because he's Jaden.
14:54I think Jaden is great, but just to be clear, there are gay white men complaining about white gay publications, saying, like, you only, you put more straight, they're literally, you put more straight men on a gay magazine than you do actual gay people.
15:06If you are not playing into male fantasy, you are quickly ostracized and criticized the way anybody else would be because you are not fitting a very rigid role that society has defined for you already.
15:18Like, we just lost our shining star, Prince, and so, you know, you look back at, like, the publications when Prince came on the scene, you know, African American publications weren't necessarily like, yay!
15:28We're so happy that he's so gender fluid or whatever, you know, it is.
15:33There has still been a lot of gender fluidity from us, and these are still our stars.
15:40Whether or not people were, like, openly accepting the possibility.
15:43Like Michael Jackson.
15:44Yeah.
15:45Totally.
15:46Michael Jackson ended up being, like, one of the most beautiful white women towards the end.
15:50Oh, we're about to get some comments in our section about that one.
15:54I'm named after Michael Jackson, so I'm like, but y'all know.
15:58But do y'all think that men get it more, um, are criticized more than women?
16:02Yeah, absolutely.
16:03Men, yeah.
16:04But when you think of, like, what is lesbian in mass media, it's a feminine woman with another feminine woman paying for, I mean, portraying, like, a male fantasy.
16:14Right.
16:15And so within, like, I'm not looking to white people to solve our problems.
16:19What I'm saying is I don't want the conversation to start from this false standpoint that we're worse than them.
16:25Oh, I don't believe that.
16:26No, no.
16:27But when you say black people, like, are black people more homophobic than anybody else?
16:31That's a false statement.
16:32That is something that statistically can be argued to death.
16:35Mm-hmm.
16:36Well, Michael, hold on to that, because we're going to talk a little bit more about labels, because I have a whole list of vocabulary words.
16:40Oh, no.
16:41And labels in PC terms that I had no freaking clue what they meant.
16:44We'll be right back with more of Essence Live's Kitchen Table Talk series on homophobia and changing gender norms in the black community.
16:55So what you trying to say?
16:57My mom's low in the gutter?
16:59Did I say she was low in the gutter?
17:01Did I write she was low in the gutter?
17:03You said you would not stoop that so low, like Mama Joyce, to be in the gutter.
17:07I said I would not stoop so low to throw a shoe or drag somebody down the street.
17:12That's what I said.
17:14Are you trying to say my mama is down in the gutter?
17:17If I wanted to say that, I would have wrote that.
17:19Well, you implied that.
17:21I said what I said.
17:23Okay, well, what you said was some bullshit.
17:26That is, that's, that's what it is.
17:28Oh.
17:29I'm clutching my pearls all day today.
17:31That was good.
17:32That was good.
17:33High five.
17:34That was good.
17:35You're watching Essence Live, and today's kitchen table talk is dedicated to homophobia
17:42in the black community, changing gender norms, and more.
17:45I'm your host, Dana Blair, and I am joined by Sway in the Morning co-host, Tracy G.
17:49Journalist, Michael Arsenault.
17:51Author and advice columnist, Abiola Abrams.
17:53And founder of The Stache, Kasim Famude.
17:56All right, plus we also have Chef Teddy from Ted Max Food Shack.
17:59And it smells so good in this kitchen.
18:01Mm-hmm.
18:02But right now, I want to talk about the new labels for gender today.
18:04It's not just male and female.
18:06It's genderqueer, non-binary, transgender, et cetera.
18:10Are we making more, things more complicated?
18:12Well, I'm just going to take some drink.
18:13Because right now, I'm confused.
18:14Because I'm used to just be, like my grandmother would say,
18:16it's just like negro-colored, black.
18:18I still say I'm negro, I still say negro-colored.
18:21I'm just, I'm old.
18:22That's right.
18:23That's right.
18:24So that's different.
18:25You're going to respect the South.
18:26I'm saying.
18:27You're going to respect it.
18:28But like cisgender, I didn't even know about this.
18:30It's a person whose self-identity conforms with the gender
18:34that corresponds to their biological sex, not transgender.
18:38Queer gender.
18:39Genderqueer people possess identities which fall outside
18:41of the widely accepted sexual binary.
18:43Like this is Google terms.
18:44Right.
18:45Google to Google.
18:46But this is important.
18:47I think that, you know, we have to respect the way that
18:49people want to be identified.
18:51I remember a few years ago, I was interviewing Laverne Cox
18:55and I was doing all of this research to learn like, okay,
18:58how do I say this or how do I say that?
19:00And then I realized as I was going into it, I was glad that
19:02I did the research, but I didn't need the terms to have a
19:05conversation with her, you know, because I don't sit and go,
19:08well, as a cis man, how do you, you know what I mean?
19:11But you know what?
19:12It's not about us.
19:13Right.
19:14It's about the comfort level of the other person.
19:15So if you want that as your identity, as your, you know,
19:18wardrobe for your gender, sex, whatever, go for it.
19:22Because for me, well, I started off with calling myself
19:26bisexual.
19:27I'm like training myself to say pansexual.
19:30What's the difference?
19:31Talk to me.
19:32Oh, she went for the leanings.
19:33Cause I don't understand.
19:34She went for the leanings.
19:35She went for the leanings.
19:36And I recently got yelled at.
19:38Okay.
19:39I'm trying.
19:40You can help me pick between pansexual and sapiosexual.
19:42Okay.
19:43Well, sapiosexual is when you are just attracted to someone's
19:46mind.
19:47Exactly.
19:48To their intelligence.
19:49So you like a really good mind effing session.
19:51See what I did there?
19:52So when do I know which term to, like, I know what I am.
19:55Right.
19:56But when, say if I just met you and I didn't know what really
19:58boils your potato.
19:59Like how do I know what to sapiocisto binary to not affect you.
20:08Right.
20:09Right.
20:10Right.
20:11I would say if I bring it up, that's when you should holler at
20:13your curiosity and ask a question.
20:16Don't just let it slide on by when this is a learnable moment
20:19for you right now.
20:20No offense to my LGBTQI.
20:23Element OP.
20:24Yes.
20:25It's a lot for me to digest.
20:27Yeah.
20:28And everyone kept starting to ask me maybe a year or two ago,
20:30Michael, what is cisgender?
20:31And I was like, sis, I'm not trans.
20:32I'm a sissy.
20:33Okay.
20:34But I will say what you all said, like, it's important to
20:37respect what people, how people want to identify themselves.
20:40And we're all full functioning adults.
20:42We can read.
20:43We can adapt.
20:44Um, but I think in casual conversation, I think it, it
20:47literally depends on how that conversation goes.
20:50Look at Cas.
20:51I know cause he looks so confused.
20:52I am confused.
20:53I see him over here leaning.
20:54Let me give you an example.
20:55I am confused.
20:56Let me give you an example.
20:57The other day there was this.
20:58What are you confused about?
20:59Everything.
21:00I mean, my thing is like.
21:01I can drink to that.
21:02The other day there was this woman who identifies as non-binary,
21:06meaning that she doesn't have, she doesn't want to be called
21:09male or female.
21:10She wants to, the pronoun she would prefer is them or they.
21:14People who were in favor of what she was talking about
21:16were identifying her as a trans woman or a trans man.
21:20But she corrected them and she said, the words that she used,
21:23she said, that hurts.
21:25She said, I feel actually hurt when I see.
21:27But if I don't know you.
21:28No, no, but she was just, she was educating.
21:30She wasn't, she wasn't, you know, like.
21:33She was expressing her feelings in that place in the lane.
21:35She was just correcting.
21:36Right.
21:37Like if someone said, you know, if someone identified me as anything
21:40other than what I was, I mean, think about it.
21:42Right.
21:43Please.
21:44People from Brooklyn don't want to be claiming that they're queens.
21:45Right, please.
21:46Don't imagine your very most intimate, you know.
21:48That's so perfect.
21:49The information can be a lot.
21:50Look at Kasim.
21:51He's stroking his beard.
21:52Yeah, right.
21:53Let's talk about it.
21:54Talk about ignorance, y'all.
21:55Like, I ain't.
21:56It's not being ignorant.
21:57It would be ignorant, like if you didn't want to enjoy the conversation.
22:00No, no.
22:01Then that's what I'm doing.
22:02You're in the convo.
22:03Straight man is trying, y'all.
22:04I'm trying.
22:05He's trying.
22:06But we're all learning.
22:07None of us is born with that list.
22:09My thing is when you compare it to like, oh, I'm Nigerian.
22:13Don't call me like Sudanese or whatever.
22:15Like, that's something like I can like scientifically pinpoint.
22:19Yes, this is where I was born.
22:20This is where my parents were.
22:21This is what I am.
22:22Da, da, da.
22:23So that's when it gets confusing to someone like myself without trying to be, you know what
22:28I mean, like disrespectful or anything like that.
22:30Because to somebody who doesn't know how that life is or doesn't know how somebody was raised,
22:39it almost feels like you're just choosing to do that.
22:41Like, I didn't choose to be Nigerian.
22:43I didn't choose to be from Staten Island.
22:45I didn't choose any of that.
22:46That's what I am.
22:47Did you choose to like women?
22:48Is that a choice?
22:49I guess.
22:50I just always like women.
22:51Even with your example though, Nigerian is still technically very specific.
22:57Yes.
22:58Because someone could easily say something else.
22:59And then some people would want to be, I'm only Yoruba.
23:01Don't call me a Nigerian.
23:02Call me Yoruba.
23:03Okay, that's true.
23:04You see what I'm saying?
23:05Very true.
23:06But that speaks to the same point though.
23:07Like, I'm not saying that you can't choose to be this or you weren't born a certain way.
23:13But to people like myself and to other people like myself, they're just like, especially
23:18if they come out later in life and they don't understand that some of these people felt like this their entire life.
23:23Just like, dude, I'm not just going to be like, oh, I'm from Mars, like I'm Marsian or something like that.
23:27But no, but why can't we just be male or female?
23:29And why do we have to have all of these?
23:30Why can't you be Dana, Tracy, Michael, Nabiola too?
23:32Well, true.
23:33That is true.
23:34You can be all those things, but it's just a level of respect and dignity and willingness to learn.
23:40And patience, I think.
23:41We need to exercise patience.
23:42I think if you're on the end of being the educator, then you got to know if someone is at a kindergarten level with this, you got to crawl with them.
23:51Right.
23:52You know?
23:53It's got to be patience on both sides.
23:54Yeah, exactly.
23:55It can't work just one way.
23:56Absolutely.
23:57Yeah, like it can't just be me being like, oh, like if you're, if you're bisexual, I was like, oh, hey, bisexual Tracy.
24:02Like, how dare you?
24:03No, no, no, no, no.
24:04I'm just like, I don't know.
24:06Right.
24:07Should that be my new Instagram name?
24:09No, no, no.
24:10Some people just don't know.
24:11This is still very new.
24:12Right?
24:13No, no, exactly.
24:14That's what you were saying about patience.
24:15To us.
24:16To us.
24:17To us.
24:18To us.
24:19To us, people still don't even understand.
24:20Like, sometimes I just don't do it for like mix folks.
24:22Like it takes.
24:23While you looked over here, Michael, no, I'm just messing with you.
24:25Don't go anywhere.
24:26Don't go anywhere.
24:27We have more essence live coming on next.
24:29Bring on a magnet.
24:30Good, cut off.
24:31All right.
24:32What if we just start to create a consistent harmony, right?
24:36Okay.
24:37Yeah.
24:40And then you break off, sing a little part with some words, and we'll come back to the harmony.
24:57I'll break off, sing a little song with her. Is this getting too confident?
25:00No, no, no. Let's try.
25:10So, so full and always there. She'll show up on a Sunday. And she'll be rocking the biggest, beautiful, crazy hair.
25:28You wanna hit something?
25:29Okay.
25:30Or I'll hit it.
25:31Alright.
25:40You got the smile in the going.
25:44Chillin' on a Sunday.
25:47Ooh, yeah.
25:49Come join us July 4th weekend at the number one festival for R&M.
25:57It's Sunday.
25:58It's Sunday.
25:59It's Sunday.
26:00It's Sunday.
26:01And we're doing it our way.
26:04The Essence Festival.
26:06Baby, get your tickets now.
26:10Ooh, yeah.
26:11Yeah.
26:12Ha, ha, ha, ha.
26:13Ooh, we got it.
26:14We both looking at each other like, yeah, alright.
26:15Alright.
26:16Welcome back to Essence Live's Kitchen Table Talk. I'm your host, Dana Blair. This has been such a good conversation today. Good food, good drink, good people.
26:31We've talked about everything from homophobia and transphobia to gays in the church with my special guests, Sway in the Morning co-host Tracy G,
26:38journalist Michael Arsenault, author and advice columnist Abiola Abrams, and founder of The Stash, Kasim Famuyuri.
26:45Plus, we also have Chef Teddy from the Mac's Food Shack. What are you cooking for us? What's this next dish? Because it smells yummy.
26:52Oh, yes.
26:53This is actually my favorite dish.
26:54Okay.
26:55This is called Ted Mac's and Cheese. Ted Mac and Cheese. Now what's in this?
26:59So it's a bluefin crab that comes from Maryland. So it's actually picked fresh. I'm gonna go full black.
27:05Yes.
27:06Oh, it's not fake crab meat. It's not fake.
27:07No, no imitation, no more.
27:08No imitation, alright.
27:09Then I use four cheeses. So Asiago, monster cheese, mozzarella and cheddar.
27:14Mmm. Where do you live? I want to be your neighbor.
27:16I live in AC now, actually.
27:17Just go and put this right here.
27:18Yes, yes.
27:19Yes.
27:20I got like, absolutely, I got like sleeping bags here.
27:22No, we do not have sleeping bags here in the kitchen.
27:24I am so happy.
27:25As far as you rent.
27:26I need the itis.
27:27Mmm.
27:28Alright, so I'm gonna ask everyone for their final thoughts as we get all the mac and cheese
27:31out.
27:32Thank you, Chef.
27:33Of course, of course.
27:34Tracy, what are your final thoughts on this subject matter?
27:35Thank you, Chef.
27:36Empathy and education for both sides of it because as we evolve, more people are gonna start discovering
27:42different sides of themselves that, you know, were maybe hidden to them.
27:47What's one thing that you feel that we can all do to overcome homophobia?
27:50I think it is education.
27:51Mm-hmm.
27:52Because I feel like a lot of times people only care about what directly affects them.
27:56So I would say an assignment is just do it one day this week.
28:01Go on Google and just do some research for 10 minutes on an identity that you personally
28:08do not claim.
28:09Mm-hmm.
28:10Yeah.
28:11And then see what pops up and see what you can learn and then tweet about it.
28:14That's fair enough.
28:15Yeah.
28:16Michael?
28:17I feel like we need to have more conversations like this that are not, because these conversations
28:22are taking place, you know, in the LGBTQ community.
28:26But I think it's great when it's happening outside of that community.
28:27Mm-hmm.
28:28That on my Essence Intimacy Intervention column, every time I get an advice letter from someone
28:31talking about one of these issues and I answer it, I get people in the comments, you know,
28:36saying things like, you know, homophobia, you know, I get people in the comments saying
28:40things like, you know, homophobia.
28:41Homosexuality is not innate to us as African Americans and stuff like that, which I feel
28:54like is an erroneous and a false belief that we need to educate ourselves.
28:59There's a great book that people can read, you know, if you're reading still happens, you know, called
29:14Boy Wives and Lady Husbands.
29:17And it traces back and you can see that in the Bushmen's paintings that they showed, you know,
29:22male-male couples and women-women households.
29:26I think it's important to educate ourselves.
29:28I love that.
29:29Christine, before you dig into that mac and cheese, what are your final thoughts?
29:32Um, I don't know, man.
29:33Like, growing up and, you know, how I grew up, I was in the hyper-masculine world.
29:38I played sports growing up, black guy, New York City, all that type of stuff.
29:42So I didn't really have a lot of gay friends growing up.
29:44Didn't really know a lot of gay people.
29:46And it wasn't until I got to college that I realized that my way of thinking before then would
29:51be probably categorized as pretty homophobic, right?
29:54Okay.
29:55So how I got over that was when I went to college and I met all, I went to Purchase College,
30:00not to the Panthers, but I went to Purchase.
30:02Um, I met so many awesome, interesting, really cool people from all walks of life, especially
30:09gay people.
30:10And, like, it wasn't until then that I was like, wow, like, I really thought, like, these just
30:14awful things about people that I didn't know at all.
30:17You know what I'm saying?
30:18And I'm not saying, like, you know, there was some jerks that were gay people, but there
30:22were some, oh, really cool people that were gay as well.
30:24Right, right.
30:25People are people.
30:26At the end of the day, like, people are people.
30:27People are human.
30:28You know what I'm saying?
30:29Like, one thing that describes them doesn't necessarily, you know, define them.
30:34At the end of the day, it doesn't really concern you most of the time, so.
30:37That is a very valid point.
30:39Thank you all for joining me.
30:40Thanks for our viewers streaming us live.
30:42Tune in next week for a very special Throwback Thursday edition of Essence Live.
30:45I'm your host, Dana Blair, and I'll see you next week.
30:48Dig in.
30:49Everybody dig in.
30:50Chefs.
30:51Hey!
30:52Chefs.
30:53Hey!
30:54Hey!
30:55Hey!
30:56Hey!
30:57Hey!
30:58Hey!
31:00Hey!
31:01Hey!
31:02Hey!
31:03Hey!
31:04Hey!
31:05Hey!
31:06Hey!
31:07Hey!
31:08Hey!
31:09Hey!
31:10Hey!
31:11Hey!
31:12Hey!
31:13Hey!
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