00:00and like can we just talk about how criminally under compensated the back end of when you
00:08compare it like i would say that you guys are doing three times the labor of a mainstream
00:15yeah employee not that there's anything wrong with mainstream but it's simply the fact that
00:20you have to know everything like in mainstream there is there's literally like you know oh
00:25these are electrics c stands like these are their stands you can't touch them you grip over here
00:30like this is not your department like you can't even touch this this stick that i'm holding like
00:35this is not yours yes um in porn everybody does everything it's collaborative like it's 100
00:42um you are lighting you are stills you are audio you are production management you are craft services
00:50you are pa everything and you're doing that for 30 percent of what one person who just has one
00:59departmental job is doing and like we were talking about this yesterday of it's such a i think it's
01:07such a like if there's one thing i think in porn that is applicable to the wider world of like gig
01:14economy work it's that if you are consistently undervaluing your work you're you're setting
01:23that standard and there's always somebody that's willing to do your job for less yep but people like
01:31i don't know the the quality aspect of this like i care about yeah what i make i want it to look
01:37as cinematic as possible as beautiful as possible i want it to be as sexy as possible and i spent a lot
01:43of time and effort doing that and then i look at the end of the day at like how much money the crew
01:48and production are actually walking with and i'm just like why are we doing this to ourselves why like
01:55this skill set that we have like we really all must be just we just must fucking love this job
02:01at the end of the day like that has to be it like there's there's nothing quite like this informal
02:06creative environment that we have but the the struggles that the that the crew undergoes and the
02:14constant law changes and the legal dimension to this like you guys have no clue how much battle
02:24goes into just being able to supply a steady diet of like ethically made porn yeah oh my god the wider
02:31world it's it's so difficult and it's like i like i would love to go into detail about it but i also
02:38don't want to call myself out on some stuff because it's just like but sometimes i do feel like i get
02:44punished because i want to do everything by the books and i want to do everything properly and i want
02:51to which costs more run a business the way you're supposed to run a business and it 100 costs so much
02:58more money when there are other people who just kind of skate around certain things and and you
03:05know i can understand how a lot of companies might go with oh this person's pitching us like a thousand
03:11dollars less like why do we care if this person is perhaps exposing himself to certain risks on you
03:20know whatever level because oh yeah they're signing a contract all of those like public miami shoots and
03:25they're signing a work for hire contract where they are admitting they are taking on full
03:31responsibility and all liability for anything that happens on set so like we don't care you know what
03:39i mean it's no skin off our back yeah so well and and like good luck say okay so like you're a company
03:45that assumes all of this liability like you're a production company that says okay sure to whomever i will
03:51sell you this scene that i'm making according to your specs um and i'm creating it this way if
03:57anything happens though the the normal protections that a contractor would have liability insurance
04:04workman's comp um the the typical dice insurances right like trying to get them to work with adult
04:12because of the stigma that we have and then like you throw in the the real legal dimensions to that
04:19like the payment processing like banks and and um at a at a federal level banks and payment
04:26institutions have been disincentivized in in very real economic ways from working with adults because
04:33we're grouped in with the same group of people as like drug dealers and human traffickers and all of
04:38these things and so putting a choke on our financing is considered a way of running porn out of
04:47civilized society but all it does is force us underground all it does is in a really real way
04:54make our sets more dangerous for crew and for talent because i don't think if that's one thing
05:01i think like the last time that i was on your podcast i really really heavily stressed how important
05:06it is that talent be protected um from a work safety perspective from a mental health perspective
05:12and all of that but like crew have just as many of the same problems they are just as open to
05:21being taken advantage of albeit in very different ways like the the types of advantage that's taken
05:27out is really from these more predatory company practices like and do i necessarily think that these
05:33uh corporations are sitting like these most of them are foreign entities that have never really stepped
05:38foot onto a porn set and i don't necessarily think that they're like sitting up in their offices going
05:43like oh how can we how can we fuck over yeah yeah these little men down here that are making our stuff
05:49um i think it's really just that that like invisible hand of the market that just moves towards whoever
05:57can get it done the cheapest the fastest the whatever and i mean it's all about capitalism
06:03yeah and if you can get the same product or a similar enough product for less money why wouldn't
06:10you do that you know that's how you become a successful business in the first place right
06:14you don't just throw money at people because you like want them to be happy right that's not like
06:20what makes a good business versus which is why i'm so shitty at it same i'm constantly overpaying like
06:27i make honest in all honesty i make like barely any money on my features because i always wind up
06:33like overpaying my crew because i'm just like i'm putting you through so much yeah to get this product
06:38i always go over food budget because i'm like it's been a really long day like of course we're gonna
06:43get you guys pizza and coffee like um you know what i mean like that's only fair and and like kill
06:49fees if things happen like i'm always like the one doing the kill fees and stuff like that like
06:54i'm just too uh tender-hearted on all of that stuff but like i don't know it's just it's so
07:00crazy to me too because porn is changing so much in the last like since i got in almost four years ago
07:08it's become like my joke is that porn is no longer punk rock like this is true everybody and their mama
07:15has a snapchat or an only fan yeah like literally everybody like there's there's mainstream celebrities
07:21now that have their own like little premiums of various sorts that's fascinating to me but then
07:28on top of it you know looking at it now with a little bit of a back-end eye all i see is how much
07:35subscription and dvd sales and all of the traditional metrics of like how traditional porn has made money
07:44is all diving like you can look back on these websites like you can go to any of like the big sites
07:49and they've got those view counters on them and you can see that like even just three four or five
07:54years ago it'd be like oh you know 22 000 views on this video i'm like okay well 22 000 views on a
08:00video with subscribers like you're looking at you know what that represents for what your
08:05subscribership was if you had 22 000 people looking at it and then now it's like 3 000 4 000 5 000
08:126 000 views and then you think about well like how many of those were the guys that bought like
08:17lifetime memberships for those bargain deals yeah yeah like you're not even probably netting a
08:24recurring income off a huge portion of these just like lifers that are watching so where are those
08:32people going to consume their pornography because it's not that anybody stopped beating off yeah that's
08:38for sure nobody stopped beating off in this time span yeah it's they've switched to the patreons
08:44they've switched to the only fans they've switched to snapchat and i think my big curiosity is
08:52everything changes like nothing will stay the same but like what does that mean i think it means um i think
09:01that especially now in the place that we are at and how disassociated we are from each other
09:07because of the you know advent of the internet and the proliferation of social media is that
09:12people are seeking connection like a personal connection you do not feel connected to people
09:17when you join a big you know multi-pass website and you see all these professionally shot scenes on
09:23your favorite girls you do not feel connected to them when you join their snapchat and they're like
09:28you know taking pictures of themselves in the bubble bath when they're in the car and they're like
09:33hey guys on my way to set streaming like that and they're responding to your dms
09:38that is a personal connection that you are not getting on those other sites and i think that we
09:43are becoming an increasingly more and more lonely culture absolutely and i think that that's that's
09:50that's what it is that's also why camming is such a big thing too i think that's a really astute
09:55observation because like the same things that you and i have just been complaining about for the last
09:59two days straight with regards to we literally have yeah we had a big we had a like like i love
10:06getting together with other directors because all we do is complain like it's just a one big bitch fest
10:12i love hanging out with you holly because like every time that i do like not that you are in any way
10:18like old enough to be a mom but like you've been doing this so long like there you have like a big
10:23maternal presence and i'm just like oh my god this is normal i'm feeling normal things i remember when
10:30you hit me up and you were like struggling to find a location and i was like girl i feel your pain
10:34you're like this happens to you too i'm like you have no idea that is so that meant so much to me that
10:40you took the time out of your day just to like do a little emotional labor for like a relative
10:44stranger i was like oh my god thank you thanks for being a shoulder
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