- 3 months ago
In a special year-end report, this broadcast provides a multi-faceted analysis of the major geopolitical upheavals of 2025. The program features an in-depth interview with Dr. Shashi Tharoor, Congress MP and Chairperson of the Standing Committee on External Affairs, alongside a roundtable with international experts. Dr. Tharoor identifies 'Trumpian turbulence' and its effect on tariffs and global alliances as a defining feature of the year. He provides a detailed account of 'Operation Sindoor', which he calls the year's most significant event, and discusses Pakistan's 'asymmetric deterrence'. The broader discussion with experts covers the new US National Security Strategy, the shifting global order involving the US, China, and Russia, and ongoing peace efforts in the Middle East and Ukraine. This comprehensive review examines India's 'multi-alignment' strategy in an increasingly fragmented and multipolar world.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Donald Trump plays the disruptor US-China trues after bruising trade war Trump hails the G2
00:15Vladimir Putin no more a pariah for the US
00:22US throws old allies under the bus
00:28Trump pushes Ukraine peace plan Zelensky out of options
00:36Israel and US bomb Iran's nuke plants Trump brokers Gaza peace plan
00:48India bombs Pakistan after Pahlgaam terror attack
00:58Modi redraws foreign policy amidst Trump's tariffs
01:022025 new world order is born
01:10What will 2026 be like
01:20Hello and welcome to the year end global roundtable
01:262025 has been a landmark year
01:30A quarter of the 21st century is gone and this one year has seen the emergence of a possible new world order
01:38A world order that everyone is still struggling to fathom
01:42When it comes to 2025 and global events
01:46This has been a year like no other
01:48Wars bombings terror attacks
01:50Tariff conflicts regime changes
01:52Regime changes
01:54The world and indeed our own neighborhood here has seen it all and we aren't even done yet
02:00In uncertain and unsettled times
02:02We will focus on the global roundtable
02:04On all that's happened in the world
02:06And what's likely to happen next
02:08And we'll be joined by a special panel of guests from India and across the world
02:14My first guest is the redoubtable Dr. Shashi Tharoor
02:18Multiple Congress MP
02:20As well as the chairperson of the Standing Committee on External Affairs
02:24Someone who served for years with distinction at the UN
02:28Appreciate your joining us Dr. Tharoor and Merry Christmas
02:32Wanted to ask you right at the very outset Dr. Tharoor
02:36Do you believe if I rewind to 2025
02:40This should be seen as the year of Donald Trump
02:43A year when one man sitting in the White House with his often whimsical
02:47Unpredictable actions has unsettled the world order like never before
02:52Would I be right in saying that?
02:55I'm afraid you're probably right
02:57I mean Trumpian turbulence is something that I think has defined
03:00Defined geo-global developments in this entire year
03:05And you can't get away from that
03:07I mean he did come to office officially on the 20th of January
03:12And the year hasn't got anything like what anyone would have predicted up to the 19th
03:17And so with all the inflection points that we've seen
03:21Including of course the drama of the transformation of US policies across the board
03:29Tariffs for example
03:31The impact on India with its 50% tariffs has really been quite significant
03:37The reorientation of America's perception on the world
03:42With the G2 meeting in Busan with President Xi
03:45And the Europeans wondering where exactly they stand
03:48The dramatic announcement of a peace in Gaza
03:51And the fit for progress towards one in Ukraine
03:54Mr. Trump has made his mark on all of these
03:58So it's very difficult to get away with
04:00I think you know that old time magazine man of the year kind of thing
04:04It would very clearly have to be Mr. Trump this year
04:07Ah so Shashi Tharoor saying Donald Trump man of the year for time
04:11If there was a time magazine man of the year this year
04:14But you know as you rightly said
04:16Donald Trump continues to occupy the international headlines
04:20But also the national ones because from an Indian perspective Dr. Tharoor
04:24The tariff wars have disrupted India's economy
04:29We've also seen Donald Trump claim credit for a cease fire
04:32Repeatedly between India and Pakistan after Operation Sindhu
04:35We've seen him cozy up to General Asim Munir
04:38And the Pakistani military leadership
04:40So how should New Delhi see Donald Trump as a disrupter
04:44As someone who's disrupted a stable India-US relationship
04:48Someone unpredictable who we misread
04:51Someone unpredictable not just for India but for the entire world
04:55Well I think both are true right
04:59That unpredictability involves a certain amount of disruption
05:02Again even the disruptions we don't know how long they will last
05:05Is Field Marshal Munir the flavour of the month
05:09Or is he going to be close to Mr. Trump throughout the Trump administration 2.0
05:15I would be more likely to think the former is credible than the latter
05:20Because Mr. Trump is known for his enthusiasms
05:23The romance with Mr. Musk didn't last the year
05:27And I think you're going to find similar sorts of things on the global stage as well
05:32We've seen for example that it's useful at the moment for the US to talk to Pakistan
05:39Because they want Pakistani soldiers as peacekeepers in Gaza
05:44And that's one of the things that as long as that prospect is there
05:47They're going to be making sort of nicey-nicey with General Munir
05:51What stand the Pakistanis finally take
05:54Which will also have implications domestically for Pakistan
05:58Also will need to be looked at what happens if there are Pakistani soldiers on the ground
06:03Not wearing UN blue by the way because it's not a UN force
06:06But an international force answerable to a board of peace run by Tony Blair and Mr. Trump
06:13In that particular context what happens if say Hamas violates the peace
06:18Are Pakistani soldiers going to be expected to fire on Palestinians
06:21And if so how will that play back in Pakistan?
06:24I mean there are various questions
06:26So I think it's premature to think that there is a complete realignment at the moment
06:32But for the moment the Pakistanis have done well
06:34They have managed to persuade Mr. Trump that they're the good guys in all of this
06:38And indeed you're right, Mr. Trump seems to have undone a quarter of centuries
06:43A strategic realignment towards India
06:45But even on the latter I would say the fundamentals go beyond a few tweets on truth social
06:52And the fundamentals are still pretty solid for us
06:55I think it's only if every single assumption underpinning that strategic reorientation
07:01Changed in the course of the next few months
07:04That we could really say well the American relationship is gone
07:07What it's shown us is that you can't rely on it as a bedrock
07:11That Mr. Trump's behavior has undoubtedly shown us
07:14But there are still lots of convergences, many overlapping interests
07:19Very few areas of disagreement
07:22And at the same time the significant presence of an Indian diaspora in the States
07:27Which too has its own value in the people to people level
07:31Plus of course America still are the biggest investors
07:34American businesses are still the biggest investors in India
07:37And more investments are coming
07:38We saw big announcements from Google and Microsoft
07:41So I would say look, there are still lots of things keeping India and America close to each other
07:46Despite Mr. Trump
07:48You know, I want to for a moment turn to the neighborhood
07:51Not just Pakistan, Dr. Tharoor
07:53Because you know, it's been turbulent, a neighborhood
07:57Yes, we saw what Pakistan sponsored terror did in Pahalgam in April
08:02A war-like situation erupting over Operation Sindhu
08:05Do you fear more of that is one of the concerns?
08:10Should we be concerned that someone, that Pakistan is being run at the moment
08:15By someone like General Asim Munir
08:18Could we well see a Pahalgam part 2?
08:20Are we, should we be worried that Pakistan is once again on a very slippery slope at the moment
08:26Towards some kind of anti-India Islamic radicalism?
08:31I wouldn't say worried, but I'd say we have to be prepared
08:34I mean, Pakistan is a very, very, you know, it's a problematic state at various levels
08:40It is a nominally civilian government that has been created by the military and is dominated by the military
08:46So the military's agenda will always be outsized in terms of what happens in terms of the policy choices there
08:55Secondly, it is economically fragile
08:57It's had a lot of money coming in from various international and Western donors
09:03And that may help give it a lifeline for a while
09:06But economic fragility often leads to military adventurism
09:11We've learned this in the past with the Pakistanis
09:14And so we have to be very much prepared
09:17I would say that the uneasy economic stabilization of Pakistan is currently in our interest
09:24But at the same time, there is undoubtedly the sort of hard-nosed military posturing that the Pakistanis are doing
09:33Because they've managed to persuade themselves they've won the engagements in Operation Sindur
09:39And they have established a new army rocket force command
09:43After the barrage of drones and rockets and missiles they sent us
09:48And they're pursuing hypersonic technologies
09:51Their new doctrine is something called asymmetric deterrence
09:55All of this is not something we can lightly ignore
09:58GDP growth 2.7% in Pakistan as opposed to about 7%, 7.2% for us
10:07Maybe more depending on how it all works out
10:09But we have to be very conscious that they're moving into our patches
10:18When it comes to export-led growth in textiles and agricultural goods
10:22And, of course, they also have minerals
10:25And they've offered space to the Americans for that
10:28They've also more or less handed over their entire cryptocurrency business
10:31To a company headed by Mr. Witkoff and the two Trump sons
10:36So all of this gives Pakistan at least the illusion that they are in good with the West
10:43And therefore they can perhaps on the Saudi deal as well
10:46I should have mentioned that
10:47Plus the continuing patron of China
10:50Shores them up at various levels
10:52And they might well be turning to us and say
10:54Hey, you know, we'll do what we like
10:57And you won't be able to retaliate
10:59Because we've got all these boys in our corner
11:02That kind of thing is something we need to be watchful about
11:06Right
11:07You know, but it's not just Pakistan, Dr. Tharu
11:09The rest of the neighbourhood
11:11The toppling of a government in Nepal through street protests
11:14We are seeing rising anti-India sentiments
11:17In an increasingly unstable Bangladesh
11:19Bangladesh because we should particularly worry us
11:22Surely because we've had a relatively stable relationship until now
11:26Now we are seeing what's happening in Dhaka
11:29Should that worry us now that it's now Bangladesh is a new front which is completely unsettled?
11:39Well, obviously a peaceful, stable and calm Bangladesh is of great importance to us
11:43Because otherwise it becomes in that notorious phrase
11:46India's soft underbelly
11:48And we know that Pakistan in the past
11:50The ISI has been fishing in troubled waters through that soft underbelly
11:55And there's also been a problem of militants in the northeast
11:59Seeking refuge and obtaining it
12:01Obtaining safe haven in Bangladesh
12:03And then crossing over, wreaking havoc and coming back again
12:07Now we obviously have fenced about 80% of the border with Bangladesh now
12:11But there are still about 20% through which they can get through
12:14And that's not a small matter
12:17There is a real concern about the way in which the student leaders' provocative rhetoric
12:24Has crossed all bounds with some openly threatening to sever our seven sisters' northeastern states
12:32From the rest of the country
12:34And obviously openly talking about providing refuge to separatist elements
12:40All of that, most unfortunate
12:42And it's coupled with the fact that the Islamist forces, the Jamaat-e-Islami in particular
12:47Have added a layer of communal anxiety to all of this
12:51Then we've got the Sheikh Hasina problem with
12:54Dhaka's demand for her extradition to face a death sentence
12:58Now that's going to be something very difficult for India to do
13:01And I think India won't do it probably
13:04Though I don't want to prefigure what the government is doing
13:07It says they're studying all the legal implications
13:09They're studying the treaty, their obligations
13:13As well as the exceptions that have been written into the treaty
13:17And they'll take a decision when they judge it suitable
13:19But I cannot imagine them doing an extradition in the midst of the current chaos
13:25And protests engulfing diplomatic establishments in both countries and so on
13:29But also don't forget, Radhi, Bangladesh is grappling with their own problems
13:33They have energy shortages
13:35They have inflationary pressures
13:37They have declining investor confidence
13:39The FDI not coming in
13:41We have offered them plans for regional connectivity
13:43Through ports, rail and energy grids
13:45Which will actually help Bangladesh
13:47But that depends heavily on stability in Bangladesh
13:49So if I were a Bangladeshi
13:51I'd say, look, we really
13:53Are going through the economic tough times
13:55That's perhaps unavoidable
13:57We need India to help stabilize this
13:59Why are we making enemies of them?
14:01But unfortunately they're going the other way
14:03They're talking about defense pacts with the Pakistanis
14:06And they are really, at this point
14:09Really seeming to want to give the impression
14:11That India is their enemy
14:15And this kind of narrative
14:17Will obviously only appeal to the Gen Z of Dhaka
14:21Who didn't live through the liberation war
14:23But they are probably now numerically
14:25Much more significant
14:27Than those who do remember India
14:29As a friend and a protector
14:31So it's not going to be easy, Rajdeep
14:34That entire relationship
14:35I take your point
14:36But it brings me to another
14:37Neighbor with which
14:39Whom we've shared a rather uneasy relationship
14:41But a large border
14:43Some would call it the elephant in the room
14:45The Chinese factor
14:47You spoke earlier about G2
14:49About US and China
14:51In some way holding a summit coming together
14:53How worried should we be
14:54About growing Chinese influence
14:55That we are seeing in 2025
14:57Not just in the neighborhood
14:59But as I said across South Asia
15:01But across the world
15:02India seems keen to revive that relationship with China
15:05Can we ever really trust Beijing
15:07Given the fact that even during Operation Sindhu
15:09Every indication is the military of Pakistan
15:12Was fused almost with the Chinese
15:14Is China the elephant in the room still, Dr. Tharoor?
15:19Well, we are the elephant
15:20They are the dragon in the room
15:22But as a dragon
15:23They do breathe fire of it, Rajdeep
15:25And what worries me about that
15:26Is that with Pakistan and Operation Sindhu
15:30You know that it's widely reported
15:32That there was real-time
15:34Operation intelligence being relayed
15:36From Chinese satellites hovering over India
15:39And over Indian positions to the Pakistanis
15:41Eighty-one percent of Pakistan's
15:43Weaponry, planes, missiles
15:45Come from China
15:46And their cooperation of the military
15:49And intelligence levels
15:51Is very, very high
15:52So I think to talk about a rapprochement
15:54With China overlooks that
15:56Overlooks the fact that
15:58The single largest project
16:00In the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative
16:02Is the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor
16:05Which is something that China considers
16:07To be in its own interest
16:09Not just in helping out Pakistan
16:11So given all of that
16:12I have to say, Rajdeep
16:13That I would be
16:15And not just me
16:16I think large sections
16:17Of India's foreign policy establishment
16:19Would be deeply wary
16:21Of giving any serious consideration
16:24To a complete reorientation
16:26Towards China
16:27Because we boil down to a capitulation
16:29China is sitting on our frontiers
16:31And nibbling away at our territory
16:33China is imposing
16:34Non-tariff barriers in our exports
16:36China is trying to encroach
16:38On our sovereign autonomy
16:40In all sorts of domains
16:41China still claims Arunachal Pradesh
16:43How do you go around
16:45Talking about surrendering to China
16:47In these circumstances?
16:48No Indian with self-respect
16:51Would do that
16:52As far as I'm concerned
16:54But you know that
16:55Dr. Tharoor
16:562025 only seems to have confirmed
16:59That the world is multipolar
17:01And as a result
17:02Also seems far more embattled
17:03Than ever before
17:05There's no end to the war
17:06Between Russia and Ukraine
17:07As of now
17:08The Middle East remained tense
17:10Through the year
17:11We saw that
17:12Iran-Israel conflict play out
17:14And it appears that
17:15Maintaining global peace
17:16Is becoming more and more difficult
17:17How does one manage conflicts
17:19And who's for example
17:22Is going to reign in a
17:23Vladimir Putin
17:24Who's going to reign in a
17:25Netanyahu
17:26These strongmen leaders
17:27Even the United Nations
17:28Of which you were once
17:29A distinguished member
17:30Several years ago
17:31Seems completely powerless
17:32Well, Radhi, the United Nations
17:37Can really only be effective
17:39When member states
17:40Who make it up
17:41Don't forget it's an organization
17:42Of member states
17:43When they agree
17:44And when they agree
17:45The UN works miracles
17:46Which is why
17:47It has such an impressive
17:48Collection of Nobel Peace Prizes
17:50In its cabinet
17:51It's when the member states
17:53The powerful ones
17:54In particular
17:55The top five in the world
17:56The so-called permanent members
17:57Of the Security Council
17:59When they are divided
18:00The UN can't be expected
18:01To deliver results
18:03In the peace and security domain
18:04It continues to be
18:05A hugely important play
18:07On all sorts of
18:08Socioeconomic issues
18:09Setting the agenda
18:10On everything from environment
18:11To climate change
18:12Human rights
18:13And so on
18:14But on peace and security
18:15I think we'll have to
18:16See the UN
18:17Taking a back seat
18:18No, no, but Dr. Tharoor
18:19That's the question
18:20Who's going to reign in
18:21I repeat
18:22The Netanyahu's of the world
18:23The Putins of the world
18:24Thousands of lives
18:25Lost this year in Gaza
18:26Who's going to reign in
18:27Vladimir Putin
18:28Thousands of lives
18:29Lost in the Russia
18:30Ukraine war
18:32That's the question
18:33I raise
18:34Look, I think
18:36There's no doubt
18:37That the tectonic plates
18:38In the world
18:39Are shifting
18:40And therefore
18:41We are going to see
18:42A period of turbulence
18:43You know
18:44We're used to
18:45Describing the world
18:46The portrait gallery
18:47Where you go from
18:48One to the other
18:49And you understand
18:50And describe each portrait
18:51Instead it's more like
18:52A wall mosaic
18:54Jagged edges
18:55Poking everywhere
18:56And you're quite right
18:57No one able to
18:58Pull them all together
18:59Into a coherent pattern
19:00So let me just say
19:01That you know
19:02Who's going to reign in
19:03Anybody
19:04Isn't the right question
19:05The question is
19:06How do we manage
19:07Those who can't be reined in
19:08The Europeans and the West
19:10Are trying to bring about
19:12A peace in Ukraine
19:14But there is a big gap
19:15Between America
19:16Which I think
19:17Wants some compromises
19:18On the part of Ukraine
19:19And the Europeans
19:21Who are urging the Ukrainians
19:22Not to compromise
19:23And Russia of course says
19:25Look we're winning the war anyway
19:26If we stick to it long enough
19:28Why should we agree
19:29On a compromise
19:30That involves anything
19:32Giving up on our part
19:33And that process
19:34Is not looking very promising
19:36Conversely though
19:37Gaza
19:38You're right
19:39There's some horrendous
19:40Atrocities
19:41A sort of peace
19:42Is reining right now
19:43In the region
19:44And therefore
19:45Perhaps it won't need
19:46Raining in
19:47If Mr. Trump
19:48Can get those
19:49Those Muslim troops
19:50On the ground
19:51In that region
19:52Bring about
19:53Uphold some sort of peace
19:54And do some rebuilding
19:56You might actually see
19:57Some good news happening
19:58I know many people
19:59Would scoff in disbelief
20:01Because there's no sign of that
20:02But it could still happen
20:03And we actually have
20:04An agreed peace formula
20:05That people are trying
20:06To implement
20:07As far as
20:08Our own neighbourhood
20:09Is concerned
20:10Yes the Chinese
20:11Are giving us trouble
20:12But the Chinese
20:13Don't really want to go to war
20:14The Pakistanis
20:15Are a bit more
20:16Of a problem
20:17Not because
20:18They will leap into a war
20:20That also doesn't suit them
20:21Because they could feel
20:22They can use terrorism
20:23With impunity
20:24Knowing that
20:25India
20:26Is aware
20:27That the
20:28Sort of odds
20:29Have changed
20:30In a military conflict
20:31And therefore
20:32We have to be very much
20:33On our guard
20:34Against new terrorist attacks
20:35Of Pakistan
20:36As far as
20:37As far as the rest
20:38Of the neighbourhood
20:39Is concerned
20:40It's Bangladesh
20:42It's Pakistan
20:43It's Sri Lanka
20:44It's Nepal
20:45It's the Maldives
20:46You know
20:47We've got
20:48Bhutan is the only
20:49Completely peaceful
20:50And tranquil place
20:51In our immediate periphery
20:52But I think
20:53I think we can
20:54Actually
20:55With Sri Lanka
20:56We've transformed
20:57The relationship
20:58Into one of great
20:59I think
21:00Bonhomie
21:01And we've helped
21:02Sri Lanka
21:03Maldives again
21:04We're changing
21:05The narrative there
21:06So I don't think
21:07It's all unrelieved gloom
21:08Sorry Raj
21:09No no you're saying
21:10It's not gloom only
21:11But I want to ask you
21:12The big question
21:13Has Indian foreign policy
21:14Under Prime Minister Modi
21:15Got it right or wrong
21:16In this unsettled world
21:17Do we really have
21:18This voice
21:19On the global
21:20High table
21:21That we were hoping for
21:22Have we been much
21:23Too reactive
21:24Rather than proactive
21:25Do we really have
21:26A moral voice left
21:27To take a strong
21:28Enough stand
21:29Let's say
21:30On what happened in Gaza
21:31Has Indian foreign policy
21:32In that sense
21:33Dr. Tanur
21:34In the neighbourhood
21:35Across the world
21:36Found itself
21:37Has it got it right
21:38Or wrong
21:41Look I think
21:42One thing that's very clear
21:44Is this entire turbulence
21:45In 2025
21:46Has underscored
21:47The importance
21:48Of the strategic autonomy
21:49That we set so much
21:50Store by
21:51We've tried to come across
21:52As a voice
21:53Of the global south
21:54While effectively
21:55Balancing relations
21:56With Washington, Moscow
21:57And Beijing
21:58Without having
21:59A direct degree
22:00Of enmity
22:01Or a great degree
22:02Of partnership
22:04With any of them
22:05We are managing
22:06All these three relationships
22:07There's an enormous
22:09Amount of instability
22:10In the global economy
22:11Of the global economy
22:12Where we have
22:13Had a relatively stable
22:14Fiscal trajectory
22:15Though of course
22:16Our rupee has gone down
22:17So badly
22:18So that will put some
22:19Inflationary pressure
22:20On us from energy imports
22:22Which are of course
22:23Priced in foreign currency
22:25But we are otherwise
22:26I think
22:27Well poised to take advantage
22:29Of some of these currents
22:31A multi-alignment
22:32The phrase that I came up
22:33With 20 years ago
22:34And at that point
22:35It was rejected by the establishment
22:37And sank without trace
22:38Trace is now the term of art
22:40To describe what we're doing
22:41The world is more and more
22:43Like the world wide web
22:45You know, an internet
22:46Networked world
22:47And we are trying to function
22:49Do we
22:50Around several networks
22:51Without being stuck
22:52In only one particular pattern
22:53And that's multi-alignment
22:55And it's going reasonably well
22:57I believe
22:58You know, but do we have
22:59Do we really have a voice
23:01On the global high table
23:04That's my direct question to you
23:08We haven't I think
23:09Tried enough
23:10To give ourselves
23:12The opportunity
23:13To be the kind of
23:15Sort of punching above
23:17Our weight global player
23:18That many of us
23:19Had hoped that India would be
23:21I think we're not there yet
23:22And it's partially
23:23As you rightly implied
23:24Because we are not interested
23:26Or we are a bit reticent
23:28We haven't had the nerve
23:30Or the courage
23:31To take too many steps forward
23:32And therefore
23:33We haven't become
23:34The big voice
23:35On the global high table yet
23:37But we can be
23:38And the global south
23:39Might be the platform
23:40That enables us to be
23:41But also we
23:42With our technological strengths
23:43Our ability to be
23:45An influential voice
23:46On everything from
23:47Cyberspace to outer space
23:49Our capacity
23:51To reach out
23:52To help developing countries
23:54In our neighbourhood
23:55And beyond
23:56As a well-meaning donor
23:59Very different from the way
24:00The Chinese build up
24:01Debts everywhere
24:02We've been very
24:03Very considerate
24:04I think we've got
24:05All the elements
24:06To be a significant player
24:08And I will say to you
24:10Rajdeep
24:11That at the moment
24:12We have to do
24:14You know
24:15You're a cricket fan
24:16We have to play
24:17A few more defensive strokes
24:18At this stage
24:19Of the innings
24:20Before we can start
24:21Launching into
24:22Those expansive fours
24:23And sixes
24:24That your question
24:25Implies we can do
24:26On the world stage
24:27Arguably we can
24:29But at the moment
24:30There's still
24:31Too many bouncers
24:32Coming our way
24:33That we need to
24:34Weave out of the way of
24:35You know but you're also
24:36A cricket fan
24:37So let me throw you
24:38A googly
24:39Is part of the problem
24:40That there is no
24:41Domestic consensus
24:42When it comes to
24:43Foreign policy
24:44That's also broken down
24:45You yourself
24:46Have placed a blowback
24:47From your own party
24:48Every time you've said
24:49Even a word of praise
24:50For the Narendra Modi
24:51Government's policies
24:52For example
24:53On Operation Sindur
24:54Is that something
24:55That should worry
24:56You or us
24:57That even foreign policy
24:58Is now tied
24:59Into a very polarized
25:00Environment domestically
25:01Making any government's task
25:03Perhaps that much more difficult
25:07Yeah I mean I said
25:08Many many years ago
25:09There's no such thing
25:10As a BJP foreign policy
25:11Or a congress foreign policy
25:13There's only Indian foreign policy
25:15And Indian national interests
25:16And that's what I will
25:17Always speak for
25:18And to my mind
25:19That really is something
25:21Which most countries
25:22Are dear to
25:23America has this
25:24Doctrine of our
25:25Political differences
25:26Top at the water's edge
25:27And we
25:28I think
25:29Very much need that
25:30Because we are
25:31Far more beleaguered
25:32At the water's edge
25:33Than America is
25:34And I think
25:35We really do need
25:36To stay together
25:37Stay behind the flag
25:39And stand up
25:40So when
25:41When some
25:42Perhaps people
25:43In our politics
25:44Rejoice at what
25:45They see as setbacks
25:46For Mr. Modi
25:47I tend to see setbacks
25:48For India
25:49And therefore
25:50I bristle
25:51And stand up
25:52For my country
25:53And if that means
25:54Standing up for my government
25:55That's what the voters
25:56Or the public of this country
25:57Have given us
25:58I'll have to do that
25:59But to my mind
26:00Foreign policy
26:01Is an area
26:02Where in the past
26:04There have been moments
26:05Of bipartisan consensus
26:06Everyone talks about
26:07Vajpayee Saab
26:08Leading the delegation
26:09To the UN
26:10Meeting in Geneva
26:11On Kashmir
26:12With the government's
26:13M.O.S. Foreign Affairs
26:15Salman Kushid going
26:16As the leader
26:17Of the opposition's
26:18Deputy
26:19And that sort of thing
26:20Has also happened
26:21Indira Gandhi sent
26:22J.P. Narayan
26:23And other critics
26:24Around the world
26:25On a tour of capitals
26:26To sensitize them
26:27On what was happening
26:28In East Pakistan
26:29In the lead up
26:30To what became
26:31The Bangladesh War
26:32We need to recapture
26:33That spirit
26:34Because as Nehruji
26:35Famously said
26:36Who lives
26:37If India dies
26:38I mean
26:39There is no question
26:40In my mind
26:41First for all of us
26:42Okay
26:43Interesting
26:44My final question
26:45Therefore
26:46Dr. Tharoor
26:47What is that moment
26:48Globally that stands out
26:49For you in 2025
26:50A moment that either
26:51Fills you with hope
26:52Or despair
26:53And what do you believe
26:54We should expect
26:55In 2026
26:56A little bit more stability
26:57Or are we simply
26:59In an unsettled age?
27:03I'm not going to give you
27:04A black and white answer
27:05Rajdeep
27:06I would say the moment
27:07That stands out for me
27:08Very clearly
27:09Operation Sindhuur
27:10And the multi-party
27:11Delegations that followed
27:12Because of my own
27:13Personal involvement
27:14In that process
27:15And the conversations
27:16I was able
27:17And privileged to have
27:18With world leaders
27:19In the aftermath of that
27:20So for me
27:21That was the biggest event
27:23Of the year
27:24And it fills me
27:25With both hope
27:26And concern
27:27Hope because of
27:28The extremely good quality
27:29Of feedback
27:30We got from interlocutors
27:32In every country
27:33We went to
27:34And the amazingly
27:35Positive level of interest
27:36In a close relationship
27:37With India
27:38But also a worry
27:39Because despite
27:40All of that
27:41We had the
27:42Trump tariffs
27:43Following a few weeks
27:44After my visit to Washington
27:45We had the
27:46Ascent of Pakistan
27:48That you and I
27:49Talked about earlier
27:50In the program
27:51Right
27:52And we've seen
27:53Some of the difficulties
27:54Surrounding our relationship
27:55With China as well
27:57And so
27:58With all of this
27:59There are reasons
28:00For concern
28:01Foreign policy
28:02Is not
28:03For the complacent
28:04And it's certainly
28:05Not for those
28:06Who are unable
28:07To see nuances
28:08We have to
28:09Identify the nuances
28:10Explore them
28:12And work through them
28:13And therefore for me
28:14The year begins with hope
28:16That we can manage
28:17All of this
28:18That we have
28:19A lot to contribute
28:20In terms of
28:21Our capacity
28:22To involve ourselves
28:23As leaders
28:24Of the global south
28:25In navigating a path
28:27For example
28:28If there is a path
28:29In you
28:30Peace in Ukraine
28:31I see India
28:32Playing a role
28:33Very much
28:34In bringing that
28:35To permanence
28:36I think
28:37For example
28:38Our fiscal prudence
28:39Will help strengthen
28:40Our economy
28:41Our AI hubs
28:42And our technological work
28:43Will make us
28:44An important player
28:45On the global technology
28:46Transformations
28:47Et cetera, et cetera
28:48So there is a lot
28:49That I'm hopeful about
28:51And I'd like to see
28:52India march ahead
28:53With confidence
28:54In that context
28:55You know
28:56There's a word
28:57Umeed pe dunia kaim hai
28:58Dr. Tharoor
28:59And maybe that's the mantra
29:00Going ahead into 2026
29:02But for giving us
29:03In your inimitable fashion
29:04An overview of the world
29:06In 2025
29:07Appreciate you joining us
29:08On this year end
29:09Global round table
29:11Thank you so much
29:13Thank you Razeef
29:14Happy new year to you
29:15Thanks
29:17Okay, let's widen
29:18The year end
29:19Global round table
29:20With voices
29:21From across the world
29:22I'm joined from
29:23Washington DC
29:24By Michael Patrick Mulroy
29:26He's a former
29:27Deputy Assistant
29:28Secretary of Defence
29:29Retired CIA
29:30And US Marine
29:31Appreciate your joining us
29:32You're from
29:33Harvard's Belfare Centre
29:34In DC
29:35Natalie Toki
29:36Joins us
29:37She's Professor of the PACTIS
29:38At SAIS Europe
29:39John Hopkins
29:40Director of the Institute
29:41Of Afare International
29:42Line
29:43She joins me
29:44From Spain
29:45Adel Nazarian
29:46Senior Fellow
29:47Gold Institute
29:48For International Strategy
29:49Is joining me
29:50From Washington
29:51And Einar Thangen
29:52Senior Fellow
29:53Centre for International
29:54Governance
29:55And Chairman of Asia Narratives
29:56Is joining me
29:57From Beijing
29:58I appreciate all
29:59Four of you
30:00Joining us
30:01Thank you so much
30:02Merry Christmas
30:03And Happy New Year
30:04To all of you
30:05But let's talk about
30:06Our big questions
30:08The big question I want to pose
30:10Is has Donald Trump
30:12Completely upended the post-Cold War
30:15World Order
30:16Would that be a fair understanding
30:18Of what's happened in 2025
30:19Michael
30:20Why don't you go first
30:21Do you agree that Donald Trump
30:23Has completely disrupted
30:24The world order
30:25As it was?
30:26Great to be with you
30:28Great to be with you
30:29And my fellow guests
30:30And your audience
30:31I think if you look at
30:32The national security strategy
30:34That was recently released
30:36It certainly appears to change
30:39The standard-bearing parts
30:42Of US national security strategies
30:45Going back to 1947, right?
30:48So it doesn't label Russia
30:50As an adversary
30:51That's the first time ever
30:53At a time when Russia
30:54Has invaded a European country
30:57It diminishes the role
31:01That Europe has played
31:02In US security
31:04Since the end of World War II
31:07And then, of course
31:08It prioritizes the Western Hemisphere
31:11Going back to a time
31:13Similar to, say, the Monroe Doctrine
31:15Of the early 1800s
31:17So this is a sea change
31:19If it's instituted
31:21A strategy is only as good
31:24As it is being implemented
31:26So we'll have to see
31:27What comes from this
31:28But we're already seeing
31:29Discussions on collapsing
31:31Combatant commanders
31:33Commands, excuse me
31:35Around the world
31:36To really focus on
31:38The Western Hemisphere
31:40So if that is in fact
31:41Where we're headed
31:42Then this is a sea change
31:43From where the United States
31:45Has been since the end of World War II
31:47I think the important point
31:49Is whether this will
31:50Actually translate
31:51From an overarching strategy
31:53Into action
31:54Because there's a word
31:55Which the Financial Times
31:56Of London uses
31:57Which is taco
31:58Trump always chickens out
32:00Natalie Toki
32:01There in Spain
32:02From a European perspective
32:03Do you believe
32:04Donald Trump
32:05Is completely upending
32:06The world order
32:07Diminishing power
32:08To NATO
32:09Almost allowing Russia
32:11A questing some believe
32:12In Russia's invasion
32:14Of Ukraine
32:15He claimed he would
32:16End all wars
32:17That hasn't happened either
32:19Well in fact
32:20You know I would say
32:21That prior to
32:22Donald Trump's
32:23Return to office
32:24We already knew
32:25That the world
32:26Was becoming
32:27More multipolar
32:28We already knew
32:29That multilateralism
32:30And traditional
32:32Organizations
32:33Were in a sense
32:36You know
32:37Not necessarily
32:38On the decline
32:39But certainly struggling
32:40Where I think
32:41Trump has really
32:42Made a difference
32:44At least in terms
32:45Of world view
32:46And as you rightly say
32:47The question is
32:48Whether then this is
32:49Going to be implemented
32:50Is that he puts forward
32:51What I would define
32:52As a vision
32:53Of imperial collusion
32:55And what I mean by this
32:56Is that he understands
32:58The United States
32:59In many respects
33:00As being an imperial nation
33:02With ambitions
33:04That range from
33:05Greenland to Mexico
33:07To Canada
33:08To the Western Hemisphere
33:09More broadly
33:10More broadly
33:11But he also
33:12Understands
33:13That perhaps
33:14Other powers
33:15May also have
33:16Their imperial ambitions
33:17Whether this is
33:18Putin's Russia
33:20Or whether this is
33:21Xi's China
33:22So where I think
33:24The real difference
33:25Probably compared
33:26To the past
33:27Is that whereas
33:28We already knew
33:29That there was a more
33:30Distributed
33:31Sort of
33:32Asset
33:34You know
33:35Asset of power
33:36Basically
33:37Where the difference
33:38Really lies
33:39Is as I said
33:40In this vision
33:41Of imperial collusion
33:42Which basically sees
33:43Not just Europe
33:44But other world regions
33:45On the colonial menu
33:47That's an interesting word
33:49That you've used
33:50You believe that
33:51There is some kind of
33:52A global imperial collusion
33:54Is what you're calling
33:55Do you agree with that
33:56Adele Nazarian
33:57That Donald Trump's vision
33:59Is virtually creating
34:00A world divided
34:02Almost among strongmen
34:03Putin given his space
34:05In Europe
34:06In a way
34:07Netanyahu
34:08In the Middle East
34:09He gets his space
34:10In Asia
34:11And therefore
34:12Carving out the world
34:13Into these little empires
34:15Run by strongmen
34:16Is that a sign of the times?
34:19So I happen to think
34:20That President Donald Trump
34:22Which was clearly laid out
34:23In his first term
34:24Is continuing
34:26His strategy
34:27Of actually
34:29Unpending the way
34:30Things were
34:31Business as usual
34:32And I think
34:33That he's laid it out
34:34Very clearly
34:35Believe
34:36Believe it or not
34:37I don't think he's
34:38Carving out
34:39Parts of the world
34:40But I think
34:41There is going to be
34:42A reset
34:43In the sense that
34:44Everyone has been
34:45Misreading
34:46And miscalculating
34:47Russia
34:48And the Western media
34:49And you just have to
34:50Look at the numbers
34:51This is not
34:52We're not operating
34:53In a Cold War
34:55State Department era
34:56Any longer
34:57And there's a lot
34:58Of reasons for that
34:59You have to
35:00This isn't rewarding
35:01Aggression
35:02But what it's doing
35:03Is it's actually
35:04Seeing Russia at face value
35:06Regarding the plan
35:07In the Middle East
35:08First of all
35:09Just backtrack
35:10I do think that actually
35:11Russia has already
35:12Strategically won this war
35:14It's not over yet
35:15By far
35:16Not over
35:17Unfortunately
35:18I hope it ends soon
35:19But regarding the
35:20Middle East situation
35:21The whole situation
35:22With Gaza
35:23I never in a million years
35:25Thought that we'd arrive
35:26At this
35:27But apparently
35:28There are talks
35:29Of rebuilding
35:30Gaza
35:31Into a more
35:32Less luxurious
35:34Economically
35:35Viable
35:36Area
35:37And I think
35:38This is a brilliant
35:39Strategy
35:40Why not do that
35:41And provide the
35:42Palestinian people
35:43And the residents of
35:44Gaza
35:45With a better life
35:46And better opportunities
35:47Then perhaps
35:48There will be
35:49Far less
35:50Terrorism
35:51Happening between
35:52Across the borders
35:53The whole reason
35:54The Palestinians
35:55Want to flee
35:56But that
35:57You actually believe
35:58That when Donald Trump
35:59Says he's going to
36:00Convert Gaza
36:01Into some kind of
36:02A Riviera
36:03I mean
36:04It's been over the
36:05Dead bodies of
36:06Thousands of children
36:07Women
36:08And the animosity
36:09Is run deep
36:10Are you saying
36:11Overnight Donald Trump
36:12Just says
36:13I'm going to
36:14I mean
36:15Is this all Donald Trump
36:16Posing for the cameras
36:17And making these statements
36:18Or is there
36:19Is there more to it
36:20Than that
36:21That
36:22So you can't
36:23You cannot deny
36:24The devastating
36:25Repercussions of war
36:26It is horrifying
36:27It is heart wrenching
36:28And my heart goes out
36:30To every single victim
36:31Palestinian
36:32Israeli and other
36:33International people
36:34Who are affected
36:35But when you look at it
36:36From a strategic perspective
36:37From a geopolitical
36:38Point of view
36:39Right
36:40If there is a true
36:41Intention
36:42To modernize
36:43To upgrade
36:44To update
36:45And to actually build
36:46To build a sound infrastructure
36:48In Gaza
36:49Where people can
36:50Actually thrive
36:51Instead of being
36:52Formented
36:53Under the rule of Hamas
36:55Then I think that it is
36:56A true opportunity
36:57That we should look at
36:58Seriously
36:59And consider supporting
37:00So that people can have
37:02Opportunity like never before
37:03In a unprecedented way
37:04Unprecedented way
37:05Let me bring in Aina Tangen
37:07Aina Tangen
37:08Do you believe that
37:09Donald Trump has
37:10Completely upended
37:11The post world
37:12Cold war world order
37:13Was it already upended?
37:14And Donald Trump is only writing
37:16The final obituary to it
37:18The whole idea of
37:19Pax Americana
37:20Of the American empire
37:22Was already in a way
37:23Coming to an end
37:24And you have multilateralism
37:26Already in place
37:27In different parts of the world
37:28Well I believe you are correct
37:30I mean Donald Trump
37:31Is a symptom
37:32But he is also
37:33An accelerant
37:34And you can see that clearly
37:36His policies are not
37:37Really laid out by him
37:39They were all put together
37:40By this Heritage Foundation
37:42And this 225 program
37:44The problem is
37:45There is no end game
37:46To these
37:47And what has happened
37:48Is while people have
37:50You know
37:51Bowed and scraped
37:52Before Donald Trump
37:53Or Donald Trump
37:54Giving him bubbles
37:55And things like this
37:56They are
37:57You know
37:58Within their hearts
37:59They know that
38:00The United States
38:01Is no longer reliable
38:02That it is
38:03No longer a power
38:04That is interested
38:05In international institutions
38:06The rule of law
38:07Is simply
38:08Whatever the United States says
38:10So in many respects
38:11For instance
38:12In China
38:13I think
38:14They were agnostic
38:15As to what would happen
38:16Between Biden
38:17And Trump
38:18But now
38:19They believe that
38:20Trump
38:21Is really helping China
38:22Things that China
38:23Would never even
38:24Have thought about
38:25In terms of alienating
38:26Neighbors
38:27And whole spheres
38:28And things like this
38:29You know
38:30Donald Trump wants to play
38:31You know
38:32That he is some sort
38:33Of historical figure
38:34You know
38:35Dividing up the world
38:36A la Yalta
38:37After the Second World War
38:39But he is actually
38:40More of a child
38:41In an old man's body
38:43He doesn't seem to understand
38:45Even the basics
38:46Of international
38:47Just like
38:48He doesn't understand
38:49Where anything is
38:50Out there
38:52I mean
38:53There's so many flubs
38:54And inconsistencies
38:55That portrays
38:56His deep ignorance
38:58It's going to be
38:59Very hard
39:00Next three years
39:01Trying to do this
39:02In terms of my
39:03Previous colleagues
39:04Speaking
39:05I would say that
39:07Is somewhat diluted
39:09Probably a product
39:10Of Washington D.C.
39:12I was born there
39:13Witnessed it
39:14This idea
39:15That you're making
39:16You know
39:18Gaza
39:19Good for Palestinians
39:20They have no intention
39:22Of letting the Palestinians
39:23Back in
39:24Once they've created
39:25This quote
39:26Of playground
39:27If it ever happens
39:28I find it offensive
39:29That saying
39:30Oh well
39:31From a strategic point of view
39:32It's all for the greater good
39:34The greater good
39:35Is what has broken
39:36The Middle East
39:37And many other countries
39:39What we've done
39:40In South America
39:41And Africa
39:42That has always been
39:43For the greater good
39:44And what has it
39:45Resulted in
39:46Horrible tragedies
39:48You know
39:49Even as we speak
39:50Of course
39:51This week itself
39:52The U.S. has
39:54Attacked
39:55ISIS targets
39:56Or Islamic State targets
39:57In Nigeria
39:58So that's another conflict point
39:59Which brings me
40:00To my next question
40:01In a multipolar world order
40:03Who is going to actually
40:04Resolve rising conflicts?
40:06Michael
40:08Donald Trump came to power
40:09Saying I'm going to end all wars
40:11No war really has ended
40:13Yes, there's a
40:14Tentative peace of sorts
40:16In the Middle East
40:17At the moment
40:18That's only at the moment
40:19The Russia-Ukraine war
40:20Hasn't ended
40:21And there is possibility
40:23Of fresh escalating conflicts
40:25We're even seeing one
40:26Between Thailand
40:27And Cambodia
40:28As we speak
40:29So where is Donald Trump
40:31Ending any war at all?
40:32Or where
40:33Who is going to play the role
40:34Of ending wars?
40:35Are there any peacemakers
40:36Peacekeepers
40:37Left at all?
40:38Well, one of the factors
40:41That would help
40:42In long-simmering conflicts
40:44Is the support
40:45Of the international community
40:47And organizations
40:48That were designed
40:49To do just that
40:50And I would agree
40:51That it looks like
40:52The US is pulling away
40:54From the very system
40:55It created
40:56To which it placed
40:58The United States
40:59Front and center
41:00Of the world order
41:01So it's kind of
41:03Perplexing
41:04Why the United States
41:05Would want to
41:06Leave it
41:07And then
41:08Do whatever it can
41:09To reduce
41:10Their impact
41:11Including alliances
41:12Like NATO
41:13As far as ending war
41:15I would give
41:16The Trump administration
41:17Credit for pushing
41:19Israel hard
41:20To get into the ceasefire
41:21That is currently
41:22Tentatively going on
41:25In Gaza
41:26We'll see if it goes
41:27Into the second phase
41:28I'd have to give them
41:29Credit for that
41:30But a lot of the other
41:31Claims are simply wars
41:32That have been going
41:33Back and forth
41:34For decades
41:35And decades
41:36That have a hot
41:38Hot spot
41:39If you will
41:40And then simmer down
41:41And just claiming
41:42That you've solved
41:43The war is certainly
41:44Not the case
41:45And it gives
41:46A false impression
41:47That those conflicts
41:49Are you know
41:50Complete
41:51I think what's
41:52Important is for
41:53The United States
41:54To be a leader
41:55Of the free world
41:56To try to end
41:57Conflicts
41:58But to do so
41:59As a partner
42:00To the party
42:01That is part
42:02Of the free world
42:03So when you look
42:04At Ukraine
42:05It's a democracy
42:06That was invaded
42:07By an autocracy
42:08The U.S.
42:09Shouldn't just be
42:10A mediator
42:11The U.S.
42:12Should be an advocate
42:13And pushing
42:14For them
42:15To end this
42:16In a way
42:17That they can agree with
42:18That's good
42:19For their security
42:20Which is also good
42:21For NATO's security
42:22Which the U.S.
42:23Of course
42:24Is a part of
42:25So I think if the U.S.
42:26Is going to play a role
42:27They got to play that role
42:28As a leader of the free world
42:29Right
42:30And not just claiming
42:31To end conflicts
42:32Conflicts that simply
42:33Start and stop
42:34On their own
42:35Natalie
42:36Who do you see
42:37Ending these conflicts
42:38Are we going to head
42:39To another year
42:40In 2026
42:41With even more
42:42Simmering conflicts
42:43Often localized
42:44But with no one out there
42:46To actually act
42:47As any kind of peacekeeper
42:49Europe is struggling
42:50To deal with what's happened
42:51Over the last three years
42:52In Ukraine
42:53Yeah well I mean firstly
42:55Let me say that
42:56Indeed
42:57Saying that
42:58UN wars
43:00Does not actually mean
43:01That those wars have ended
43:02I think this is
43:03Absolutely key
43:04And of the many wars
43:06That Trump has claimed
43:07To have ended
43:08Probably the only one
43:10To you know
43:11You know
43:12For which one
43:13Should actually give him
43:14Some credit
43:15Although of course
43:16It predates
43:17Peace efforts
43:18Predates his coming
43:19To power
43:20Is actually the war
43:21Between Armenia and Azerbaijan
43:22So if I were to actually give
43:24One brownie point
43:26To Donald Trump
43:27It would actually be on that
43:28Frankly speaking
43:29On the Middle East
43:30Yes I mean
43:31It's great to have a truce
43:34In between one bombing
43:35And another
43:36It's great not to have
43:3750 Palestinians dead a day
43:39And only have five
43:40But frankly speaking
43:41To define this
43:42As a full ceasefire
43:44Let alone the prospect
43:45Towards reconstruction
43:47And state building
43:49I think we're a very
43:50Very long way away
43:51And fundamentally
43:52I think the reason is
43:53Not that different
43:56From the reason in Europe
43:59Meaning the problem
44:01With Donald Trump
44:02Is that he is unwilling
44:03To exert sustained pressure
44:06He has done so a little bit
44:07More with Israel
44:08Than with Russia
44:09With Russia absolutely zero
44:10Unwillingness to sustain pressure
44:13On the party that actually
44:15Does not want to end the war
44:17So in the case for example
44:19Of Europe
44:20There is absolutely no prospect
44:22For the war to end sustainably
44:24Over the course of 2026
44:26Unless we will see a radical shift
44:28In the Trump administration's approach
44:31Towards this war
44:33Actually being willing
44:34To exert pressure on Russia
44:36If this doesn't happen
44:37And I frankly speaking
44:38Don't expect it to happen
44:39I think that what we will
44:41End up seeing
44:42Is the continuation of this war
44:44Probably for another year
44:46I personally believe
44:47That this war will continue
44:48So long as Vladimir Putin
44:50Remains in power
44:51But and let me say this
44:53One last thing
44:54What I think people also
44:56Underestimate is that
44:57By withholding support
45:00For Ukraine
45:01For Ukraine
45:02Trump has actually diminished
45:04The US's own influence
45:05On this war
45:06Right?
45:07Basically Europeans
45:09After all their weakness
45:10Which is often talked about
45:12Are the ones that actually
45:14Have the most powerful
45:15Sanctions in place
45:16The ones that now support
45:18Essentially all
45:19Economic and military assistance
45:21To Ukraine
45:22They're the ones that can move
45:24Forward on Ukraine's
45:25EU accession path
45:27So actually
45:28In many respects
45:29Europeans under Donald Trump
45:31Have many more cards
45:32Than they did
45:33On the Ukraine war
45:34Compared to what they did
45:35When Joe Biden
45:36Was in power
45:37Right
45:38Interesting
45:39Adele you follow the
45:41Middle East particularly
45:42Closely
45:43Do you see
45:44The wars in the area
45:46Diminishing
45:48Or intensifying
45:50We've had a year
45:51When Israel
45:52Bombed Iran
45:54We thought that would
45:55Spiral out of control
45:56We've had as I said
45:57Thousands of Palestinians
45:58Palestinians who've been killed
46:00Post the October 7th
46:02Happenings of Hamas
46:04Do you see
46:05Any kind of
46:06Reconciliation at all?
46:08And who's going to do
46:09The reconciliation?
46:11So
46:12Thank you for that
46:13I have to say
46:14I just want to say
46:15You can deny
46:16That
46:18Wars didn't
46:19Proliferate
46:20Under
46:21Under Trump's watch
46:22But they actually
46:23Didn't
46:24And I just have to
46:25Address something else
46:26Before I get to this
46:27I disagree with the
46:28Premise completely
46:29That Trump's trying to
46:30Divide the world up
46:31He actually
46:32Has already
46:33Acknowledged
46:34The world has been
46:35Divided for so long
46:36Even long before
46:37He came into office
46:39And pretending otherwise
46:40Hasn't produced peace
46:41It hasn't produced
46:42Stability
46:43And it hasn't produced
46:44Prosperity
46:45And strategy really
46:46Begins with reality
46:47Not illusion
46:48Regarding the Middle East
46:49I have to address
46:50My esteemed colleagues
46:51Comments earlier
46:54Delusion is not the word
46:56Gaza
46:57Saying it can't be rebuilt
46:58Saying it can be rebuilt
46:59Is not delusional
47:00In fact
47:01It's delusional
47:02Thinking that it can't be
47:04Far worse
47:05Devastation has occurred
47:07From Europe
47:08After World 2
47:09To Asia
47:10To the Middle East
47:11And it's been rebuilt
47:12Bigger and better
47:13And the real question
47:14Isn't whether Gaza
47:15Can be rebuilt
47:16It's whether
47:17Actually under which
47:18Circumstances
47:19It can be rebuilt
47:20And I think
47:21The conditions set forth
47:22In the 21 point plan
47:23That President Trump
47:24And the administration
47:25Put forward
47:26Is not unreasonable
47:27It can only
47:28Honestly be rebuilt
47:29When Hamas is no longer
47:30Part of the equation
47:31And I think
47:32Everyone needs to
47:33Really come to terms
47:34With this
47:35And have a Hail Mary
47:36So to speak
47:37Whatever you want
47:38To call it
47:39Because I've been hearing
47:40Even a lot of people
47:41In the U.S.
47:42Who are actually
47:43Supporting Hamas
47:44And I think that
47:45That's a global
47:46Travesty
47:47As to whether or not
47:49That this war
47:50Can end
47:51Whether it will be peace
47:52I don't think there will
47:53Ever be peace
47:54In the Middle East
47:55Right
47:56Until certain things
47:57Are set into motion
47:58Set into place
47:59I think rebuilding
48:00Gaza will be the first thing
48:01As to the humanitarian
48:03Suffering and loss
48:04That has occurred
48:05On the Gaza side
48:07And on the Israel side
48:08I am not a fan of war
48:10And I
48:11But I understand
48:12I'm a logical person
48:13A realistic person
48:14I understand that
48:15If you're going to get attacked
48:16Unfortunately
48:17Any sovereign nation
48:18That has the grit
48:19And is going to be
48:20Responsible
48:21For upholding
48:22Democratic values
48:23In the Middle East
48:25Or wherever region
48:26They're located
48:27In the West
48:28Is going to strike back
48:29With equal
48:30And opposite force
48:31And that's just
48:32You know that
48:33There'll be questions
48:34Whether it was
48:35Equal and opposite
48:36Or whether it was
48:37Disproportionate
48:38Whether there was
48:39Enough check
48:40On what Israel did
48:41In Gaza
48:42At the end of the day
48:43But I want to turn
48:44To the next question
48:45And Aina I want you to take
48:46This question
48:47Because many believe
48:48That China is the X-factor
48:49In global equations
48:50The elephant in the room
48:51You know that country well
48:53Do you believe
48:54How is China looking
48:56At this upended world order?
49:00Well I mean
49:01From the Chinese perspective
49:02They see it different
49:03I mean for the last
49:04600 years
49:05You've had
49:06Dominant countries
49:07From you know
49:08Colonialism
49:09Basically raping
49:10Robbing
49:11And pillaging
49:12Throughout the world
49:13Justifying it
49:14Based on religion
49:15Or because they're superior
49:16Ethnic issues
49:17Whatever
49:18China believes
49:20That that is a dead end
49:21And that we're coming
49:22To the end
49:23Of that era
49:25They think that
49:26The future
49:27Is something
49:28Where you have
49:29A lot of nations
49:30Who have to work together
49:32Instead of trying
49:33To put ideology
49:34At the center of the world
49:36What you should have
49:37Is values
49:38I think that
49:39Every country
49:40Should be secure
49:41And their security
49:42Should not depend
49:43On the insecurity
49:44Of another nation
49:45Now what are the
49:46Shared values
49:47What are the
49:48What are the values
49:49That China for example
49:50Shares with the United States
49:51Apart from
49:52You know
49:53Wanting
49:54Power
49:55It's all about power
49:56Is it about
49:57Any values out there
49:58When you talk about G2?
49:59No I don't
50:01And I reject
50:02I think
50:03Most people in China
50:04Reject this
50:05As just a way
50:06Of trying to slight
50:07Russia
50:08And other countries
50:09If China is not
50:10Interested in G2
50:11They originally
50:12Were
50:13They said
50:14Well we should sit down
50:15And try to work things out
50:16But they realize
50:17Now that it's
50:18A multipolar world
50:19If you look at
50:20In terms of values
50:21What they're talking about
50:22Is security
50:23Development
50:24Respect for sovereignty
50:25And having a global order
50:27Which does not involve
50:28Using tanks
50:29And instead
50:31Trying to have talks
50:33So it's two
50:35A clash of different
50:37Ideas
50:38The US believes
50:39That everything should be
50:40Ideological
50:41Based on what
50:42American exceptionalism
50:43And China believes
50:44It's geoeconomics
50:45Am I right?
50:46China believes
50:47That economic power
50:48Must translate into
50:49Commensurate political power
50:50May I answer that?
50:52No I don't
50:53I don't agree with that
50:54It's
50:55What they see
50:56Is that
50:57For China especially
50:59What they want to do
51:00Is be able to
51:01Import resources
51:03And add value
51:04And export them
51:05In order to have
51:06A virtuous cycle
51:08What they would like
51:09Is to have other countries
51:10To start growing
51:11Because if they can grow
51:12They can buy more goods
51:14So they see something
51:15As a positive upswing
51:17Whereas
51:18You know
51:19Donald Trump sees the world
51:20As a zero sum game
51:21In which
51:22The US
51:23Is going to take
51:24I think
51:25Can I
51:26Adele you want to make
51:27A quick point
51:28A very quick one
51:29I have to just
51:30Preface by saying
51:31I love China
51:32I lived there briefly
51:33I visited many times
51:34It is a beautiful
51:35Beautiful country
51:36With so much to offer
51:37But I have to answer
51:39That when it comes to
51:40The shared values
51:41Between the United States
51:42And China
51:43They don't share values
51:44In the Western liberal sense
51:45What they do share
51:46Are interests
51:47Incentives
51:48And behaviours
51:49In power prosperity
51:50And stability
51:51And that's where you have
51:52To look at it as
51:53You have to look at it
51:54As a
51:55Don't tell me
51:56What I have to look at
51:57You're a brief
51:58Acquaintance with China
52:00And your age
52:01Does not make you
52:02Appropriate for making
52:03Judgments about
52:04Things that you have
52:05Not experienced
52:06The fact is
52:07You just said
52:08That everything
52:09Is ideological
52:10And I was making
52:11The point
52:12That what they believe
52:13Is that it's
52:14Based on values
52:15Not the values
52:16Of ideology
52:17But the values
52:18Of human existence
52:19Coexistence
52:20And a quick
52:22Final
52:23You want to respond
52:24Once more
52:25I don't agree
52:26That respectfully
52:27I think that there are
52:28Two different sets
52:29Of ideological values
52:30That govern both nations
52:31And I think that
52:32That is to be
52:33To be expected
52:34To be believed
52:35And frankly
52:36If you're going to have
52:37What we're seeing here
52:38Is a head to head
52:39Between two great monoliths
52:41The US and China
52:43You're literally going to have
52:45A head to head battle
52:46Over two different
52:47Ideological purviews
52:48The east and the west
52:49Certain core
52:50If you look at
52:51The family values too
52:52Very different
52:53Very different in many ways
52:55And it's not a bad thing
52:56Okay
52:57I have a couple of minutes left
52:59And I want to ask
53:00One final question
53:01I want to put each of you
53:02In a way on the spot
53:03Because I want to ask you
53:04What has been the most
53:05Defining moment of 2025
53:07And what is most likely
53:09To happen in 2026
53:12Michael what do you think
53:14Is going to
53:15What has been for you
53:16The most defining moment
53:17Of 2025
53:18And what will happen in 2026
53:19A minute each to all of you
53:21You start first Michael
53:22Well I do have to say
53:25It's the 2025
53:26National security strategy
53:28That was released
53:29I was part of the team
53:30That did the 2017 strategy
53:33Which was very consistent
53:34With US foreign policy
53:37Going back to again
53:38At the end of the World War II
53:41So that was clearly
53:42In my estimation
53:44The defining moment
53:46Whether it will be implemented
53:47I think we all talked about that
53:49Is the question
53:50Right
53:51Just putting the strategy out
53:52And then I mean
53:53How many times did you hear
53:54People in Washington D.C.
53:55Talk about pivoting
53:56From the Middle East
53:57And they never pivot
53:58From the Middle East
53:59So we'll have to see
54:00If this strategy
54:02Is actually implemented
54:03If it is
54:04This will be
54:05Right
54:06A very challenging year
54:08In my estimation
54:09On how the US
54:10Is going to do that
54:11What it's going to mean
54:12For our partners
54:13And alliances
54:14Around the world
54:15And quite frankly
54:16The status
54:17Of the United States
54:18To many of our
54:19Allies and partners
54:20If we
54:21Okay I
54:22Withdrawing forces
54:23I'm sorry
54:24I think I'm over my minute
54:25Okay
54:26I'm just going to get you
54:27Natalie
54:28Your view
54:29What's the most defining
54:30Moment of 2025
54:31I think the most defining
54:33Moment which unfortunately
54:34Is not just a moment
54:35Has been probably what
54:37In future
54:38The International Court of Justice
54:40Will define as a genocide
54:41Happening under the eyes
54:43Of the world
54:44And no action being taken
54:45In terms of the most defining
54:47Moment of 2026
54:48If there is going to be one
54:50And perhaps
54:51Let me put a little bit
54:52Of hope in this
54:53Is actually a Europe
54:55Which overcomes
54:57Its delusion of simply
54:59Wanting to wait it out
55:00And somehow
55:02Hope to reign back
55:04Trump and keep Trump
55:06On Europe's side
55:07It will be a Europe
55:08That actually
55:09Has the guts
55:10To stand up
55:11And to defend
55:12Its values
55:13And interests
55:14In Ukraine
55:15Right
55:17Adele
55:18Defining moment
55:19This is not about
55:22President Trump
55:23President Trump is a
55:24Speck in the collective
55:25System
55:26And he is
55:27Having his moment now
55:29And he's here for a reason
55:30But this is bigger than him
55:32And I've disagreed with him
55:33Also on several occasions
55:34But the most defining
55:35Moment of 2025
55:36I feel was not a war
55:37It was not an election
55:38In fact it was a collective
55:40Awakening of consequence
55:41We've seen a collective
55:42Awakening of consequence
55:43Away from hypocrisy
55:44Humanity realized
55:46That intention
55:47Without discipline
55:48And morality
55:49Without structure
55:50Produces chaos
55:51Rather than purpose
55:52And I think that's what
55:53We really need
55:54I think 2026
55:55Is going to be a reckoning
55:56I think there's going to be
55:57A reset
55:58And there's going to be
55:59Even more awakening
56:00Spiritually as well
56:01Right
56:02And I think that's what
56:03The world needs
56:04They need to realize
56:05That there are consequences
56:06For your actions
56:07And that truth
56:08Cannot be deferred
56:09Indefinitely without
56:10A cost
56:11And I think that's
56:12Okay
56:13My final word to Aina
56:15Aina, 40 seconds
56:17What's your defining moment?
56:19What's most likely to happen
56:20In 2026?
56:21I will actually say
56:24COP30
56:25Because 85% of the world
56:27That is not
56:28You know
56:29Previous colonial powers
56:30Realized that
56:31There is no help coming
56:32That if they want
56:33A better world
56:34They're going to have
56:35To create it themselves
56:36So
56:37Coming on
56:38It's not a
56:39Just an eventful year
56:40We're going to have
56:41Midterms
56:42It's going to be eventful
56:43Three years
56:44We don't know what
56:45Donald Trump is going to do
56:46But we can anticipate
56:47It will be more of the same
56:49Okay
56:50As I said
56:51We've titled this in a way
56:52The year that the world
56:54Was trumped
56:55Because literally
56:56Donald Trump
56:57Has been all over the place
56:58And events across the world
56:59In a way
57:00Have been shaped
57:01By this unpredictable leader
57:03In the White House
57:05But
57:06We look forward to 2026
57:07I don't think we've ever seen
57:09As many as global headlines
57:10Being made
57:12Often at midnight
57:13As we have
57:14In 2025
57:15Let's hope
57:16Though for a more peaceful
57:17And harmonious world
57:19To all my panelists
57:20For joining me
57:21On this global round table
57:22And to you the viewers
57:23Thanks very much
57:24For joining us
57:25We'll of course
57:26Carry forward
57:27Our year end specials
57:28Into 2026
57:30Thanks for watching
57:31Stay well
57:32Stay safe
57:33Jai Hind
57:34Namashkar
57:35I'm
57:36I'm
57:37I'm
57:38I'm
57:39I'm
57:40I'm
57:41I'm
57:42I'm
57:43I'm
57:44I'm
57:45I'm
57:46I'm
57:47I'm
57:48I'm
57:49I'm
57:50I'm
57:51I'm
57:52I'm
57:53I'm
57:54I'm
57:55I'm
57:56I'm
57:57I'm
57:58I'm
57:59I'm
58:00I'm
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