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In this edition of To The Point, we track the lynching of Hindu youth Amrit Mandal in Bangladesh's Rajbari district and PM Modi's Christmas outreach.
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00:00Hi there, you're watching To The Point with me, Maria Shakir, and we are starting with
00:20some piece of breaking news, which is coming in from Bangladesh, and this is certainly very,
00:25very worrying. Another Hindu youth has been beaten up by mob in Bangladesh. This incident happened
00:31in West Bangladesh's Rajbari district, where a man was beaten to death last night. In fact,
00:37the Rajbari police has confirmed this death by mob, and the man has been identified as Amrit
00:44Mandel, who was also known as Samrat, and he was a resident of Hossendanga, village of Kali Mohar
00:52Union, and mob has beaten him up over extortion allegations and as per the police, Amrit Mandel
00:59was beaten by mob and police rescued him in a very critical condition, and later when he
01:06was brought to the hospital, doctors declared him dead, dead early this morning. Let me bring
01:13in Ashutosh who's joining us now. Ashutosh, the situation certainly in Bangladesh across
01:19the country remains very volatile.
01:23Absolutely. The major concern for a crowd, particularly in Bangladesh, is about a mob warning, every day
01:29almost even. So, it is about the minorities, it's about all such major places that love the
01:34way they are targeting, and it looks like the lawlessness of the nation has gone to illustrate
01:39with a mob, who have seen the attacks on media by a mob, who have seen the cultural centres
01:43attacked by a mob. And now, a person who eventually gets the police recorder, he is a history teacher,
01:47he has two community cases, Amrit Mandel, and he also has called it to India and came back,
01:53started and back to extortion business. So, eventually, along with his gang, he went for
01:57extortion money, and people started shouting, Chor, Chor, Chor, and they caught him. They beat him to death.
02:03Another few of his gang members successfully escaped. Another one person, along with him,
02:08was also caught him. He was also beaten, and later, both were handed over to the police.
02:13But the question after remains is that a mob in Bangladesh has no fear, whether they are
02:18a radical group, or at any moment. So, this is totally collapsing of the law and order that
02:22has become major concern for people across the country.
02:26But, Ashutosh, the question is that there were allegations of extortion against this man.
02:35Should this be then seen as one of the reasons why the attacks on Hindus are happening? Because
02:41this could be another case not linked to the larger, you know, polarizing situation which
02:49Bangladesh is witnessing right now?
02:51Well, as far as violence is concerned, mob violence, it is, you know, it is, um, a
02:59unified economy. Across the corner, the people are coming in Bangladesh. That's what
03:03is what happened to people there. In this case, he was extortioned. But, in any case,
03:07mob violence is concerned that people have no right to beat a person, uh, to do death. And this is
03:14happening in the Bolakai area, where they have a number of Hindu pockets living in India. This
03:18might be eventually from the Hindu member committee. Uh, there have been serious, uh, uh, cases
03:23of extortion against him. What exactly shows about the lawlessness? That any pocket you do,
03:29there are these incidents of mob happening, whether they are Randalism, whether they are
03:33a beating person, whether there are mob regime of minorities that have the institution targeting
03:37India. There is a larger pressure for the line of damage. That for one and half years, the
03:42nation has literally gone to a legal mob. Any pocket, you name any district of Bangladesh, some or other,
03:47they have been instilled in mob violence. And that makes a major concern for this country.
03:52So, thank you for joining us. Shifting focus to our top story this hour. And this is with
03:59regards to the outreach by the Prime Minister, uh, on Christmas, that is today. Church bells ring,
04:06Christmas hymns have filled the air, but amidst the prayers, there is also a clear political
04:11message. On Christmas morning, Prime Minister Narendra Modi stepped into Delhi's Cathedral
04:17Church of the Redemption, joining the Christian community for special prayers on one of their
04:22most important days. And this was no isolated gesture. Prime Minister Modi has steadily built
04:28a pattern of engagement with the Christian community. And, uh, Christians, remember,
04:33form about 2.3% of India's population, nearly 2.8 crore people, making them a significant
04:40minority bloc nationally. But the political stakes rise sharply in poll-bound states, which
04:48is Kerala and Tamil Nadu, which go to polls earlier next year, where Christian votes can actually
04:53swing the outcomes. Predictably, the opposition has hit back. Critics have called Prime Minister
04:59Modi's church visit political optics, alleging hypocrisy, and pointing to his incidents of
05:05attacks against Christians. But the race for Christian outreach is not limited to the BJP.
05:12Just days earlier, DMK had hosted grand Christmas celebrations to reinforce its traditional hold
05:18over the Christian vote bank in Tamil Nadu. Sensing the challenge, Vijay's DVK has made a high-profile
05:27pitch to Christians as well, organizing a major Christmas event in Mahabalipuram.
05:32So is this faith symbolism or pure electoral strategy? With the BJP, the DMK, now TVK, all quoting the
05:41Christian community. Christmas outreach has certainly moved decisively from churches to the heart
05:48of the political battlefield. Before I bring in the guests, here's the report.
05:52Church bells, Christmas hymns and a political message. On Christmas morning, Prime Minister Narendra Modi
06:12attended prayers at Delhi's Cathedral Church of the Redemption. Carols, hymns and a special prayer for the Prime Minister
06:19Mark the Service, led by Bishop of Delhi, RT Rev Paul Soroop.
06:33This is not new. Prime Minister Modi has consistently reached out to the Christian community, attending
06:38Easter prayers in 2023, hosting Christmas at Seven Lok Kalyan Maag and joining CBCI events in 2024.
06:46Christians form about 2.3% of India's population, nearly 2.8 crore people, making them a key minority bloc.
07:01The outreach is key to poll-bound Kerala. BJP workers celebrated Christmas in Thiruvananthpuram,
07:08after the NDA emerged as the single largest party in the civic polls.
07:13Our Honourable Prime Minister spent the Christmas morning at this Christmas morning service here at the Cathedral of Redemption in New Delhi
07:22and spent it alongside many hundreds and scores of North Indian Christians and Christian families from Delhi.
07:31He patiently sat through the service, listened to the hymns and carols, enjoyed that very much.
07:38Christians account for nearly 18.38% of Kerala's population and decisive vote base.
07:44The opposition hit back, calling it political optics, alleging hypocrisy as attacks on Christians continue elsewhere.
07:53These are the religious leaders who were left in their country in the streets,
07:57these groups were left behind the church,
07:59they were left in the army of Baryli,
08:02they were left for about 40-40,
08:03they were left with Santa Claus,
08:05they were left with the people of Santa Claus,
08:06they were left with the people of the people of India.
08:08Do you want to create this?
08:10Do you want to make this?
08:12If it is true, Modi ji, if he wants to put it in all the words or want to connect with him, then connect with him with his heart. Don't let him see it.
08:25Faith, optics or strategy, Prime Minister Modi's Christmas outreach now moves from churches to the political battlefield.
08:33Bureau Report, India Today.
08:35Joining me on the show tonight, Dushar Gupta is a political analyst, former senior editor at Swarajah magazine.
08:45We have Dr. Michael Williams, who is the national president of United Christian Forum.
08:52Matthew Antony is national spokesperson of the Congress Party.
08:57Dr. Williams, I'm going to begin with you.
08:59One would say that the Prime Minister has been regularly engaging with the Christian community.
09:05He values and respects them.
09:08How should this be read politically, particularly with the allegations coming in from the political opponents of the BJP,
09:17in particular the poll-bound states, the states which have a significantly high population of the Christians,
09:24and go to polls next year, that is Kerala and Tamil Nadu.
09:29You know, you started off by, first of all, let me wish all the viewers a very pleasant, safe, Merry Christmas, and a wonderful year ahead.
09:38You started off by saying that the Prime Minister has been regularly engaging with the Christian community.
09:45However, I'll be honest with you, we see this engagement mostly every year around this time of the year.
09:51Otherwise, there's very little engagement.
09:53We have approached the Prime Minister, the Home Minister, over this past year, over several years,
10:02for several concerns that are there for the Christian community.
10:06We haven't really received any satisfactory answer or a sit-down at any time with the Home Minister or the Prime Minister.
10:14It's only during Christmas that we're able to see.
10:16We are grateful to the Prime Minister that he acknowledges the Christian community.
10:20He does show up at a church service on a Christmas day.
10:25Last year, he invited some of us for a Christmas lunch to his meal.
10:29That is wonderful.
10:30But there has been no real, there has been no credible,
10:34and there has been no such interaction which has been fruitful and profitable for the Christian community.
10:42Okay.
10:43Okay.
10:43You have expressed your concerns.
10:45Let me bring in Rakesh Sina quickly on this.
10:47Rakesh Sina, you heard what one of the panelists here, Dr. Michael Williams, had to say.
10:53His concerns are that these are engagements just around the Christmas time.
10:58When it is about regular year-long engagements, which is the need of the hour, that's not happening.
11:04Now, in fact, the BJP and RSS have been constantly trying to outreach the Christians.
11:15And this is our record that we condemn any kind of violence in any part of the world.
11:22It is not only India.
11:23We are the peace-loving people, and we understand the meaning of diversities.
11:28Diversity is the essence of India.
11:30Without diversity, India can't exist.
11:32It is the Hindu's liberalism that the Christian population is residing in India peacefully,
11:40and they are also engaged in convergence.
11:44It is the modesty of the Hindus.
11:46It is the modesty of the Hindus that have been acknowledged by the Parsis.
11:50There has not been absolutely one complaint by the smallest minority community, Parsis.
11:55There has not been any single complaint by the smallest minority community, that is Jews in the country.
12:01Parsis population, we all know, very small.
12:04They have also five temples, but no complaint.
12:07So, there are disputed areas, grey areas between the Hindus and the Christians.
12:13The Christians also acknowledge that.
12:15Their literature says harvesting the Hindus.
12:17Harvesting means converting the people.
12:19We are not the cops that you will harvest.
12:21They are not the cops that you will harvest.
12:23So, there are disputes in certain places.
12:24But, Mr. Sina, the concerns are, the concerns are, that this is not timed to elections.
12:28Let me complete this sentence.
12:30Let me complete this sentence.
12:32No, let me complete this sentence.
12:33And I am looking at the percentage of Christians in Kerala say, they are roughly around 19%, 18.38% to be specific, in Tamil Nadu again 6.13%.
12:45And that is the reason why this outreach.
12:51No, Prime Minister Narendra Modi's inclusive social philosophy has been acknowledged by the entire world.
12:58He is visiting Gurdwara, he is visiting temple, he is visiting church.
13:02It is not to appease any community.
13:04He acknowledges and he endorses the faith in diversity.
13:10We all want that all communities should acknowledge the diversity.
13:17They should not only enjoy the diversity, they should also strengthen the diversity.
13:21You can strengthen diversity only when you acknowledge others' existence.
13:26You don't engage in converting others.
13:29If Hindus would start converting Christians and Muslims, naturally there would be some kind of crisis.
13:35At the same time, I am telling you that, no violence can be acceptable.
13:40And at the same time, all Hindus are not the RSS themselves.
13:44Suppose a Hindu group has certain grievances, they are doing.
13:47It is very easy for all of certain people, that Prime Minister Modi is silent, RSS is engaged, BHP goons are doing that.
13:56How it is easy to call BHP workers as goons?
13:58Bajrang Dal workers as miscreants?
14:00This is not fair in democracy.
14:02This is not impartial assessment of the things.
14:06If there are incidents, rising incidents of attacks.
14:10I mean, recent attacks, the data shows about Raipur, Bareilly, Assam, Jabalpur, Ghaziabad, Gorakhpur, all in December of 2025.
14:22There are concerns that should be addressed as well.
14:25They are showing visuals of school attack.
14:32In Raipur as well.
14:33Certain incidents take place in the country.
14:36And you know, don't create a narrative out of that.
14:41Problem is that when you create a narrative that Christians are under threat, churches are unsafe, minority are being attacked.
14:48These are the narratives which are unacceptable.
14:51Yes, certain incidents have taken place.
14:54And my problem is, suppose there is a procession by Hindus, Muslims or Christians at their religious festival.
15:01They take police permission for that.
15:03Then the police comes to protect.
15:05So, my question is, I am not giving certificate to anybody, but my question is that whether you have taken the permission from the police.
15:13If you feel that you are threatened, you go and...
15:15No, but why is there an assumption that there is no permission taken?
15:18You feel some...
15:20No, I am just asking, I am just raising the question that the gentleman who is saying that they have been attacked in Bareilly because on the road.
15:30The people coming for Hanuman Chalisa, you know, all Hindus are not RSU sensible.
15:37And if certain Hindus have grievances, local grievances, don't make it an all India phenomenon.
15:42Don't say that there is some narrative which is going all over the country.
15:46Christians are 3%.
15:48They are safe because Hindus acknowledge that.
15:51Hindus acknowledge the diversities.
15:53Even the Ahmadiyya, they are safe because Hindus acknowledge the diversities.
15:58And Prime Minister Narendra Modi's programmes, policies, addressing each and every individual.
16:04Do you find that Prime Minister Narendra Modi's any programme is discriminatory?
16:10The toilets are not going to the Christians?
16:13The grains are not reaching to the Christians?
16:16Or any facilities which are eligible and that is not reaching to Christians?
16:23So, my problem is that when Prime Minister is going to church, they say rhetoric for the Kerala election.
16:29Christmas is here.
16:30Kerala election may be there.
16:32So, how are you connecting the Christmas to the Kerala election?
16:35Absolutely.
16:36I wish you Merry Christmas and bring in Matthew Antony now.
16:41Merry Christmas, Mr. Sina, thank you for joining us.
16:45Matthew Antony, from 2023 Easter and then Christmas events which have happened by the Prime Minister,
16:54why make this outreach farce when no other Prime Ministers in the past have matched this frequency of Prime Minister Modi?
17:06Maria, Merry Christmas to you and to all the viewers and all other panellists.
17:11The reason why we call out the Prime Minister's visit a farce is because it is a festival secularism.
17:18As the previous panellists made a statement, if at all he was there from the RSS,
17:24I would have asked, all these violences occurred in BJP ruling states, Delhi, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Uriza, everywhere.
17:31The pattern is the same.
17:33While the Prime Minister is doing the role of an ambassador by visiting the Christian church,
17:40what is being followed is a pattern, a pattern of violence in all the BJP ruled states.
17:45Then followed with a studied silence from the organisations and the government.
17:49Then there is an impunity for the attackers.
17:51He said about the police permission.
17:53Which police gave these hooligans a permission to attack all these people?
17:57And where is the conversion which is happening in these Christmas events?
18:01Where is the Santa Claus doing a conversion?
18:03So what are they trying to communicate?
18:05This pattern is to instill fear.
18:07And their ideologism is diluted when it comes to Kerala and other Christian ruled states.
18:13But Mr. Anthony, will it not be seen as an attempt to foster harmony?
18:18Because does Congress's criticism not risk alienating Christian voters in key states?
18:25No, because you are also linking this to attacks.
18:29And there is no link of RSS to these attacks.
18:32Where is the BJP?
18:35And the link between the BJP and the RSS is clear like water, plain water.
18:40And where is the attack in MP is done by a BJP-Maila Vice President.
18:46So where is it?
18:48And now the Christian community, you can see or you can see the video of the Major Archbishop
18:57Ciro Malangara Cardinal, Major Archbishop Mark Lemus, where he clearly states that he is a former office bearer of the CBCI also.
19:05Where he clearly states that such kind of disturbances will create distance between the community because there is a trust deficiency which is coming across.
19:16And that's exactly what we are saying.
19:20Okay.
19:21Tushant, your quick response.
19:23Yes.
19:24That this is a phrase which has been used by Matthew Anthony is rather interesting that this is…
19:29What did you say sir?
19:31Secularism?
19:32Festival secularism.
19:33This is festival secularism.
19:34Festival secularism.
19:35Festival secularism.
19:36Festival secularism.
19:37Well this is the first time I have heard that.
19:40Even I am hearing it for the first time.
19:42Good coinage but.
19:44And you know one could accuse any party in India be it national or regional party of indulging in festival secularism when it comes to dealing with the minorities or even with the majority for that matter.
19:54I would say festivals Tushant are about celebrating let it be secularism on the manner in whatever way you want to read it if it is about you know jingle bells and hymns why not?
20:09No.
20:10It's 25th December.
20:11I am very happy now.
20:12I don't know if it's my happiness or it's the secularism but I would like to think it's the happiness of Christmas.
20:17No, Maria two points.
20:19One, French inspires French.
20:22We all look for causality in the actions of the French but this is a vicious cycle we get caught in.
20:28One action of the French inspires other.
20:30When one action of the French is given any sort of political color or justification it empowers the other.
20:36The important thing here is the state needs to come down on the French irrespective of where they are, whoever they represent or claim to represent or whoever they are acting against.
20:47It's that simple.
20:48The state needs to come down.
20:49The law should take precedence.
20:51The problem is we sort of tend to give this a political cover depending on which part of the year it is, which is absolutely wrong.
20:59What has happened today is absolutely wrong.
21:01Now coming to the Prime Minister's visit, a lot of people have said this is about the Kerala elections, about the Tamil Nadu elections.
21:07Look, I'll be very realistic about the prospects of the BJP in these two states.
21:12They do not start as favorites.
21:14They absolutely are not the front runners to form the government in 2026.
21:18But then this is not about the elections because the Prime Minister was last year in a function as well.
21:22Now are we going to say this was about the Delhi and the Bihar election?
21:26Absolutely not.
21:27So the Prime Minister is not just the Prime Minister of those who are voting for him.
21:30He is the Prime Minister of India.
21:32So this sort of festival secularism, as a friend from the Congress coins it, is not, you know, some sort of an opportunist reaction.
21:40It's something that the Prime Minister is supposed to do.
21:42In 2024, Matthew, Prime Minister attended a dinner at the residence of Minister George Kurian and also a program hosted by the CBCI.
21:54So that has happened as well.
21:57The same, the same Cardinal who attended that dinner has made the comment today, has made the statement today.
22:04Now, what I am saying is the Prime Minister has got all the time to condemn all the political attacks or all the political issues.
22:11But why is the studied silence on this?
22:14When such an attack is happening in the country, in Delhi, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, why the silence?
22:22A word can come from the Prime Minister's mouth saying that, no, I condemn this attack.
22:27Why is that silence?
22:28That's exactly what we are saying.
22:30So on one hand, they try to build this diplomacy because I work in the North East states also for the party.
22:35In the North East states, the BJP doesn't have a problem with the pork, with the beef, with any kind of a meat.
22:39In Kerala also, they don't have any other problem.
22:41But when it comes to Mara, when it comes to Gujarat, when it comes to all other places, they have a problem.
22:45So the ideology of BJP is diluted whenever it is convenient for them.
22:50I would say that there is...
22:51Whenever it is convenient for them, you know, they do that one.
22:52So the kind of message, you know, Christmas is a good celebration.
22:55Why do you want to spoil the celebration?
22:57Because there is no element of conversion here.
23:00No, so Prime Minister's visit...
23:02Why couldn't the Prime Minister or the government of the visit...
23:04May I see something over here, Maria.
23:06Can be also seen... Yes, I'm coming to you, Dr. Williams.
23:10Why couldn't he condemn it?
23:12And his attendance at the morning service can be seen as also participating in festivities, you know,
23:20because his engagement with the Christian community has been consistent and regular as well.
23:25So, Dr. Williams, please come in on this.
23:29The fact here is that there is a need for a dialogue.
23:33And that dialogue can happen if these, you know, engagements also happen.
23:39So a couple of things I want to sort of clarify.
23:43First of all, you yourself have been able to point out only the incidents annually around Christmas where the Prime Minister has engaged.
23:51When you mentioned a dinner at George Kurian's house for Christmas or the CBCI Christmas event.
23:57Very specifically, so what you are calling a periodic interaction, let's call it an annual interaction, which happens around Christmas.
24:04And that's wonderful.
24:05I'm not at all taking anything away from that.
24:08I do take exception to our dear friend, Mr. Rakesh Sina sort of coming on this channel to say that the Christians should be grateful that they are alive and well courtesy of the large Hindu population.
24:19It's not at all that.
24:21Our forefathers wrote the Constitution, giving a dream of a new country to each and every resident who decided to stay within these boundaries.
24:33And whatever their faith was, they were specifically given rights and protections.
24:38And that is the reason why that we all enjoy the fundamental rights, not because of the largesse of any particular religion.
24:46It is this condescending tone and dialogue, which is what is watering and fertilizing the grassroot violence that we are seeing.
24:57The empowered people that you see, whether it's in Bareilly, whether it is Jangir, Champa, Durgh, Bilai, Raipur, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and all of these.
25:07Most of the people that you see indulging in these sort of violent activities, I grade them as illiterate louts and goons.
25:16None of them have any academic qualifications or any jobs that are worth mentioning.
25:22These appear to be people who are being harvested and grown, to use the term that he was saying, very much to spread this hate indoctrination that we are seeing.
25:33So, when you say there has to be a meaningful dialogue, that dialogue first needs to start with the Prime Minister and the Home Minister coming down really hard on anybody who is choosing violence as a form of subjugation of any other poor person, of any other faith.
25:50Fine.
25:51That is the very first thing.
25:52Tushana, quick response from you, please.
25:53Go ahead.
25:54Again, if we are going to take the activities of a few to reflect the entire community, I think that would be incorrect.
26:02Yes.
26:03There are a lot of people on both the sides.
26:04Some will say this happens in the Cornwall School because we bring it up academia.
26:07I studied in the Cornwall School and I can mention you a lot of activities that might not go down well with the majority community.
26:13But I am not going to let them become an obstruction between the dialogue that really needs to happen, a dialogue that just needs to happen not just once or twice a year, but it needs to happen constantly.
26:23And that is where we must focus.
26:25And that was my original point.
26:26We don't have to get caught in this vicious circle of fringe, inspiring fringe and inspiring fringe.
26:32We have to come out of it.
26:33That's where I'd like to just correct something, Pishar, if I may.
26:36Let the state take action.
26:37Let the state ensure there is no violence against any community, by any community and let the dialogue continue for the long run for the trust between the both communities.
26:47Dr. Williams, let me give you the final words, please.
26:50Go ahead.
26:51I appreciate what my dear friend Mr. Tushar is saying.
26:54However, if you study in a convent school, that's completely by your choice.
26:58This nation is based on choices that we want to make.
27:02We have the choice to follow any faith that we want.
27:06But today, more than ever, this fringe is the reflection of a mainline ideology.
27:13You have 12 states where the BJP is in power, where you have anti-conversion laws that are targeting people of the Christian faith.
27:21We have hundreds of people in prison today in Uttar Pradesh with no bail, courtesy of this particular act.
27:28No convictions over the last so many years.
27:32Since India has been independent, Arunachal had, Tamil Nadu had since 1956 an anti-conversion law, which is now pretty much dead.
27:39But suddenly we've had them resurrected.
27:43Some of the states have gone ahead and put the death penalty as a penalty for forced conversions.
27:49But the problem we are having is people are very easily using the word conversion to be able to say and not say forced conversion.
27:58One is a crime, one is not.
28:00Rhea Ali, come to the end of this discussion, Dr. Williams.
28:02Thank you for joining us, Tushar Gupta and also Matthew Antony.
28:06Merry Christmas, viewers, because I'm leaving you with these visuals of Christmas celebrations happening all across the world.
28:21Merry Christmas!
28:36Merry Christmas!
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