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In this Special Report, Anchor Maria Shakil discusses Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to the Cathedral Church of the Redemption in Delhi on Christmas Day, 2025. The visit has sparked a political debate, with Congress National Spokesperson Matthew Anthony terming it 'festival secularism' and questioning the silence on alleged attacks against Christians in BJP-ruled states. BJP Leader and RSS Ideologue Rakesh Sinha defends the outreach, citing India's inherent diversity and Hindu liberalism. The panel, including United Christian Forum President Dr. Michael Williams and Political Analyst Tushar Gupta, analyses the significance of this gesture ahead of the Kerala and Tamil Nadu elections.
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00:00To our top story this hour, and this is with regards to the outreach by the Prime Minister
00:06on Christmas, that is today. Church bells ring, Christmas hymns have filled the air,
00:12but amidst the prayers there is also a clear political message. On Christmas morning,
00:17Prime Minister Narendra Modi stepped into Delhi's Cathedral Church of the Redemption,
00:22joining the Christian community for special prayers on one of their most important days.
00:27And this was no isolated gesture. Prime Minister Modi has steadily built a pattern of engagement
00:33with the Christian community, and Christians, remember, form about 2.3% of India's population,
00:40nearly 2.8 crore people, making them a significant minority bloc nationally.
00:47But the political stakes rise sharply in poll-bound states, which is Kerala and Tamil Nadu,
00:53which go to polls earlier next year, where Christian votes can actually swing the outcomes.
00:58Predictably, the opposition has hit back. Critics have called Prime Minister Modi's church visit
01:04political optics, alleging hypocrisy, and pointing to incidents of attacks against Christians.
01:12But the race for Christian outreach is not limited to the BJP.
01:15Just days earlier, DMK had hosted grand Christmas celebrations to reinforce its traditional hold
01:22over the Christian vote bank in Tamil Nadu.
01:26Sensing the challenge, Vijay's DVK has made a high-profile pitch to Christians as well,
01:32organising a major Christmas event in Mahabalipuram.
01:36So, is this faith, symbolism, or pure electoral strategy?
01:41With the BJP, the DMK, and now TVK, all quoting the Christian community,
01:47Christmas outreach has certainly moved decisively from churches to the heart of the political battlefield.
01:54Before I bring in the guests, here's the report.
01:56Church bells, Christmas hymns, and a political message.
02:13On Christmas morning, Prime Minister Narendra Modi attended prayers at Delhi's Cathedral Church of the Redemption.
02:20Carols, hymns, and a special prayer for the Prime Minister marked the service,
02:24led by Bishop of Delhi, R.T. Rev. Paul Soroop.
02:36This is not new.
02:38Prime Minister Modi has consistently reached out to the Christian community,
02:41attending Easter prayers in 2023,
02:44hosting Christmas at Seven Lok Kalyan Magh,
02:47and joining CBCI events in 2024.
02:50Christians form about 2.3% of India's population,
02:57nearly 2.8 crore people, making them a key minority bloc.
03:05The outreach is key to poll-bound Kerala.
03:08BJP workers celebrated Christmas in Tiruvananthapuram,
03:12after the NDA emerged as the single largest party in the civic polls.
03:15Our Honourable Prime Minister spent the Christmas morning,
03:20at this Christmas morning service here at the Cathedral of Redemption in New Delhi,
03:26and spent it alongside many hundreds and scores of North Indian Christians,
03:32and Delhi Christian families from Delhi.
03:34He patiently sat through the service, listened to the hymns and carols,
03:40enjoyed that very much.
03:41Christians account for nearly 18.38% of Kerala's population and decisive vote base.
03:49The opposition hit back, calling it political optics,
03:52alleging hypocrisy as attacks on Christians continue elsewhere.
03:55He said,
04:09Faith, optics or strategy, Prime Minister Modi's Christmas outreach now moves from churches
04:34to the political battlefield.
04:36Bureau Report, India Today.
04:39Joining me on the show tonight, Dushar Gupta is a political analyst, former senior editor
04:47at Swarajja Magazine.
04:49We have Dr. Michael Williams, who is the national president of United Christian Forum.
04:56Matthew Anthony is national spokesperson of the Congress Party.
05:00Dr. Williams, I'm going to begin with you.
05:02One would say that the Prime Minister has been regularly engaging with the Christian community.
05:09He values and respects them.
05:11How should this be read politically, particularly with the allegations coming in from the political
05:18opponents of the BJP, in particular the poll-bound states, the states which have a significantly
05:25high population of the Christians and go to polls next year.
05:29That is Kerala and Tamil Nadu.
05:31You know, you started off by, first of all, let me wish all the viewers a very pleasant,
05:38safe, Merry Christmas and a wonderful year ahead.
05:41You started off by saying that the Prime Minister has been regularly engaging with the Christian
05:47community.
05:48However, I'll be honest with you, we see this engagement mostly every year around this time
05:53of the year.
05:54Otherwise, there's very little engagement.
05:56We have approached the Prime Minister, the Home Minister, over this past year, over several
06:04years, for several concerns that are there for the Christian community.
06:09We haven't really received any satisfactory answer or a sit-down at any time with the Home
06:16Minister or the Prime Minister.
06:17It's only during Christmas that we're able to see.
06:20We are grateful to the Prime Minister that he acknowledges the Christian community.
06:23He does show up at a church service on a Christmas day.
06:29Last year, he invited some of us for a Christmas lunch to his meal.
06:32That is wonderful.
06:34But there has been no real, there has been no credible and there has been no such interaction
06:41which has been fruitful and profitable for the Christian community.
06:46Okay.
06:47Okay.
06:47You have expressed your concerns.
06:48Let me bring in Rakesh Sina quickly on this.
06:50Rakesh Sina, you heard what one of the panellists here, Dr. Michael Williams, had to say.
06:57His concerns are that these are engagements just around the Christmas time.
07:02When it is about regular year-long engagements, which is the need of the hour, that's not happening.
07:07Now, in fact, BJP and RSS have been constantly trying to outreach the Christians.
07:19And this is our record that we condemn any kind of violence, any part of the world.
07:25It is not only India.
07:27We are the peace-loving people and we understand the meaning of diversities.
07:32Diversity is the essence of India.
07:34Without diversity, India can't exist.
07:37It is the Hindu liberalism that the Christian population is residing in India peacefully and
07:44they are also engaged in convergence.
07:47It is the modesty of the Hindus.
07:50It is the modesty of the Hindus that have been acknowledged by the Parsis.
07:54There has not been absolutely one complaint by the smallest minority community, Parsis.
07:59There has not been any single complaint by the smallest minority community, that is Jews in the country.
08:05Parsis population, we all know, very small.
08:08They have also five temples.
08:10But no complaint.
08:11So there are disputed areas, gray area between the Hindus and the Christians.
08:17The Christians also acknowledge that.
08:19Their literature says harvesting the Hindus.
08:22Harvesting means converting the people.
08:24We are not the cops that you will harvest.
08:27So there are disputes in certain places.
08:29But the concerns are, the concerns are, that this is not tined to elections.
08:33Let me complete this sentence.
08:34Let me complete this sentence.
08:36And I am looking at the percentage of Christians in Kerala say, they are roughly around 19%, 18.38%
08:45to be specific, in Tamil Nadu, again, 6.13%.
08:49And that is the reason why this outreach.
08:55No, Prime Minister Narendra Modi's inclusive social philosophy has been acknowledged by the entire world.
09:02He is visiting Gurdwara, he is visiting Temple, he is visiting Church.
09:06It is not to appease any community.
09:08He acknowledges and he endorses the faith in diversity.
09:17We all want that all communities should acknowledge the diversity.
09:20They should not only enjoy the diversity, they should also strengthen the diversity.
09:25You can strengthen diversity only when you acknowledge others' existence.
09:31You don't engage in converting others.
09:33If Hindus would start converting Christians and Muslims, that naturally there would be some kind of crisis.
09:40At the same time, I am telling you that, no violence can be acceptable.
09:44And at the same time, all Hindus are not the RSS members.
09:48Suppose a Hindu group has certain grievances they are doing.
09:51It is very easy for all of certain people, that Prime Minister Modi is silent, RSS is engaged, BHP goons are doing that.
09:59How it is easy to call BHP workers as goons, BHP workers as miscreants.
10:05This is not fair in democracy.
10:07This is not impartial assessment of the things.
10:10If there are incidents, rising incidents of attacks, I mean recent attacks, the data shows about Raipur, Bareilly, Assam, Jabalpur, Ghaziabad, Gorakhpur, all in December of 2025.
10:26There are concerns that should be addressed as well.
10:29When there is a Durga Puja procession, when there is a hole in Raipur as well, certain incidents take place in the country and, you know, don't create a narrative out of that.
10:45Problem is that when you create a narrative that Christians are under threat, churches are unsafe, minority are being attacked, these are the narratives which are unacceptable.
10:55Yes, certain incidents have taken place and my problem is, suppose there is a procession by Hindus, Muslims or Christians at their religious festival, they take police permission for that.
11:07Then the police comes to protect.
11:09So, my question, I am not giving certificate to anybody, but my question is that whether you have taken the permission from the police.
11:16If you feel that you are threatened, you go and run in Raipur.
11:19But why is there an assumption that there is no permission taken?
11:22You feel certain?
11:25No, I am just asking, I am just raising the question that the gentleman who is saying that they have been attacked in Bareilly because on the road, the people coming for Hanuman Chalissa.
11:36You know, all Hindus are not RSU sensible and if certain Hindus have grievances, local grievances, don't make it an all-India phenomenon, don't say that it is some narrative which is going all over the country.
11:51Christians are 3 percent, they are safe because Hindus acknowledge that, Hindus acknowledge the diversities.
11:58If any, even the Ahmadiyya, they are safe because Hindus acknowledge the diversities.
12:02And Prime Minister Narendra Modi's programs, policies, addressing each and every individual.
12:08Do you find that Prime Minister Narendra Modi's any program is discriminatory?
12:14The toilets are not going to the Christians?
12:17The grains are not reaching to the Christians?
12:20Or any facilities which are eligible and that is not reaching to Christians?
12:26So, my problem is that when Prime Minister is going to church, they say rhetoric for the Kerala election.
12:32Christmas is here, Kerala election may be there.
12:36So, how are you connecting the Christmas to the Kerala election?
12:38Absolutely.
12:39So, let's wish you Merry Christmas and bring in Matthew Antony now.
12:45Merry Christmas, Mr. Sina, thank you for joining us.
12:48Matthew Antony, from 2023 Easter and then Christmas events which have happened by the Prime Minister,
12:57why make this outreach farce when no other Prime Ministers in the past have matched this frequency of Prime Minister Modi?
13:08Maria, Merry Christmas to you and to all the viewers and all other panellists.
13:14The reason why we call out the Prime Minister's visit farce is because it's a festival secularism.
13:21As the previous panellists made a statement, if at all he was there from the RSS, I would have asked,
13:29all these violences occurred in BJP ruling states, Delhi, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Uriza, everywhere.
13:34The pattern is the same.
13:37While the Prime Minister is doing the role of an ambassador by visiting the Christian church,
13:43what is being followed is a pattern, a pattern of violence in all the BJP ruled states.
13:48Then followed with a studied silence from the organizations and the government.
13:53Then there's an impunity for the attackers.
13:55He said about the police permission.
13:57Which police gave these hooligans of permission to attack all these people?
14:00And what is the conversion which is happening in these Christmas events?
14:04Where is the Santa Claus doing a conversion?
14:07So what are they trying to communicate?
14:09This pattern is to instill fear and their ideologism is diluted when it comes to Kerala and other Christian ruled states.
14:16But Mr. Anthony, will it not be seen as an attempt to foster harmony?
14:22Because does Congress's criticism not risk alienating Christian voters in key states
14:28over their, you know, because you are also linking this to attacks
14:33and there is no link of RSS to these attacks?
14:37Where is the BJP?
14:39And the link between the BJP and the RSS is clear like water, plain water.
14:44And where is the attack in MP is done by a BJP Marila vice president.
14:51So where is it?
14:52And now the Christian community.
14:55You can see or you can see the video of the major Archbishop Malangala cardinal,
15:02Major Archbishop McLeomis, where he clearly states that, he is a former office member of the CBCI also,
15:10where he clearly states that such kind of disturbances will create distance between the community
15:17because there is a trust deficiency which is coming across.
15:20And that's exactly what we are saying.
15:24Okay.
15:24Sushant, your quick response.
15:27Yes.
15:28That this is a phrase which has been used by Matthew Anthony is rather interesting that this is,
15:33what did you say, sir?
15:35Secularism?
15:36This is festival secularism.
15:39This is festival secularism.
15:40Festival secularism.
15:42Well, this is the first time I have heard that.
15:44Even I am hearing it for the first time.
15:46Good coinage, but.
15:47And, you know, one could accuse any party in India, be it national or a regional party,
15:52of indulging in festival secularism when it comes to dealing with the minorities
15:56or even with the majority for that matter.
15:58I would say festivals, Tushar, are about celebrating, let it be secularism,
16:03in whatever way you want to read it.
16:07If it is about, you know, jingle bells and hymns, why not?
16:13No, it's 25th December.
16:15I'm very happy now.
16:16I don't know if it's my happiness or it's the secularism, but I would like to think it's the happiness of Christmas.
16:21Now, Maria, two points.
16:22One, French inspires French.
16:25We all look for causality in the actions of the French, but this is a vicious cycle we get caught in.
16:32One action of the French inspires other.
16:34When one action of the French is given any sort of political colour or justification, it empowers the other.
16:40The important thing here is the state needs to come down on the French irrespective of where they are,
16:46whoever they represent or claim to represent, or whoever they are acting against.
16:51It's that simple.
16:52The state needs to come down.
16:53The law should take precedence.
16:54The problem is we sort of tend to give this a political cover depending on which part of the year it is, which is absolutely wrong.
17:03What has happened today is absolutely wrong.
17:05Now, coming to the prime minister's visit, a lot of people have said this is about the Kerala elections, about the Tamil Nadu elections.
17:11Look, I'll be very realistic about the prospects of the BJP in these two states.
17:16They do not start as favourites.
17:18They absolutely are not the frontrunners to form the government in 2026.
17:22But then this is not about the elections because the prime minister was last year in a function as well.
17:26Now, are we going to say this was about the Delhi and the Bihar election?
17:30Absolutely not.
17:31So the prime minister is not just the prime minister of those who are voting for him.
17:34He's the prime minister of India.
17:36So this sort of festival secularism, as a friend from the Congress coins it, is not, you know, some sort of an opportunist reaction.
17:43In fact, it's something that the prime minister is supposed to do.
17:46In 2024, Matthew, prime minister attended a dinner at the residence of minister George Kurian and also a program hosted by the CBCI.
17:57So that has happened as well.
17:59The same, the same cardinal who attended that dinner has made the comment today, has made the statement today.
18:08Now, what I am saying is the prime minister has got all the time to condemn all the political attacks or all the political issues.
18:14But why is the studied silence on this?
18:16When such an attack is happening in the country, in Delhi, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, why the silence?
18:26A word can come from the prime minister's mouth saying that, no, I condemn this attack.
18:31Why is that silence?
18:32That's exactly what we're saying.
18:34So on one hand, they try to build this diplomacy because I work in the northeast states also for the party.
18:39In the northeast states, the BJP doesn't have a problem with the pork, with the beef, with any kind of a meat.
18:43In Kerala also, they don't have any other problem, but when it comes to Mara, when it comes to Gujarat, when it comes to all other places, they have a problem.
18:49So the ideology of BJP is diluted whenever it is convenient for them.
18:54I would say that there is…
18:55Whenever it is convenient for them, they do that one.
18:56So the kind of message, you know, Christmas is a good celebration.
18:59Why do you want to spoil the celebration?
19:01Because there is no element of conversion here.
19:03No, so the prime minister's visit and his attendance at the morning service can be seen as also participating in festivities, you know,
19:24because his engagement with the Christian community has been consistent and regular as well.
19:29So, Dr. Williams, please come in on this.
19:33The fact here is that there is a need for a dialogue and that dialogue can happen if these, you know, engagements also happen.
19:43So, a couple of things I want to sort of clarify.
19:47First of all, you yourself have been able to point out only the incidents annually around Christmas where the prime minister has engaged.
19:55When you mentioned a dinner at George Kurian's house for Christmas or the CBCI Christmas event, very specifically.
20:03So what you are calling a periodic interaction, let's call it an annual interaction, which happens around Christmas.
20:08And that's wonderful.
20:10I'm not at all taking anything away from that.
20:12I do take exception to our dear friend, Mr. Rakesh Sina, sort of coming on this channel to say that the Christians should be grateful that they are alive and well, courtesy of the large Hindu population.
20:23It's not at all that.
20:25Our forefathers wrote the constitution, giving a dream of a new country to each and every resident who decided to stay within these boundaries.
20:37And whatever their faith was, they were specifically given rights and protections.
20:42And that is the reason why that we all enjoy the fundamental rights, not because of the largesse of any particular religion.
20:49It is this condescending tone and dialogue, which is what is watering and fertilizing the grassroot violence that we are seeing.
21:00The empowered people that you see, whether it's in Bareilly, whether it is Jangir, Champa, Durg, Bilai, Raipur, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, and all of these.
21:11Most of the people that you see indulging in these sort of violent activities, I grade them as illiterate louts and goons.
21:19None of them have any academic qualifications or any jobs that are worth mentioning.
21:26These appear to be people who are being harvested and grown, to use the term that he was saying, very much to spread this hate indoctrination that we are seeing.
21:37So when you say there has to be a meaningful dialogue, that dialogue first needs to start with the prime minister and the home minister coming down really hard
21:45on anybody who is choosing violence as a form of subjugation of any other poor person, of any other faith.
21:54Fine. Dushan, a quick response from you, please. Go ahead.
21:59Again, if we are going to take the activities of a few to reflect the entire community, I think that would be incorrect.
22:05There are a lot of people on both the sides. Some will say this happens in the Conway School because we bring it up academia.
22:10I studied in the Conway School and I can mention you a lot of activities that might not go down well with the majority community.
22:16But I'm not going to let them become an obstruction between the dialogue that really needs to happen, a dialogue that just needs to happen,
22:24not just once or twice a year, but it needs to happen constantly.
22:27And that is where we must focus. And that was my original point.
22:30We don't have to get caught in this vicious circle of fringe, inspiring fringe and inspiring fringe.
22:35We have to come out of it. Let the state take action. Let the state ensure there is no violence against any community, by any community.
22:47And let the dialogue continue for the long run, for the trust between the both communities.
22:51Dr. Williams, let me give you the final words, please. Go ahead.
22:54I just want to appreciate what my dear friend Mr. Tushar is saying. However, if you study in a Conway School, that's completely by your choice.
23:02This nation is based on choices that we want to make. We have the choice to follow any faith that we want.
23:10But today, more than ever, this fringe is the reflection of a mainline ideology.
23:18You have 12 states where the BJP is in power, where you have anti-conversion laws that are targeting people of the Christian faith.
23:26We have hundreds of people in prison today in Uttar Pradesh with no bail, courtesy of this particular act.
23:32No convictions over the last so many years. Since India has been independent, Arunachal had, Tamil Nadu had since 1956 an anti-conversion law, which is now pretty much dead.
23:44But suddenly we've had them resurrected. Some of the states have gone ahead and put the death penalty as a penalty for forced conversions.
23:52But the problem we are having is people are very easily using the word conversion to be able to say and not say forced conversion.
24:01One is a crime, one is not.
24:03We really come to the end of this discussion, Dr. Williams. Thank you for joining us, Tushar Gupta and also Matthew Antony.
24:10Merry Christmas, viewers, because I'm leaving you with these visuals of Christmas celebrations happening all across the world.
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