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This India First special report focuses on the debate sparked by Prime Minister Narendra Modi's call to discard the 'Macaulay mindset' after the Dharm Dhwaja ceremony in Ayodhya. The programme features a discussion with activist Saira Shah Halim, BJP National Spokesperson Dr. Ajay Alok, and lawyer Deshratan Nigam on decolonising the Indian mind, the New Education Policy, and the interpretation of Indian history. Saira Shah Halim stated, 'modern India's educational crisis stems not from Macaulay's 19th century policy, but from the 21st century neglect'. The panelists debate whether Thomas Macaulay's 1835 Minute on Indian Education was a modernising force or an instrument of colonial slavery. The conversation also explores the significance of Ram Rajya, the Ram Mandir, and the role of historical figures like Subhash Chandra Bose and Bhagat Singh in the national consciousness.
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00:00So you heard Prime Minister Narendra Modi say for thousands of years to come, people will look at this dharm dhwaja and when they look at this saffron flag, the conversation would be about justice for all of Ram Rajya.
00:17That was one of the thoughts even in India's independence struggle when Mahatma Gandhi spoke of Ram Rajya ki or. And what is that Ram Rajya? The Prime Minister also incidentally also referred to getting rid of that Macaulay mindset.
00:33At 1835, Thomas Macaulay spoke of creating this entire breed of Indians who would be Indian in blood, but British by nature. To be clerks in their office, to think everything Indian was inferior, everything British was superior.
00:50The Prime Minister says the quest is now to get rid of that inferiority complex. What is this Macaulay mindset? There's a raging debate on it.
00:58Joining me on this India First special broadcast is a very well-respected activist, political leader and author, Saira Shah Haleem.
01:07Also with me on this broadcast is Dr. Ajay Alok, a medical doctor, the spokesperson of the Bharatiya Janata Party.
01:14And Deshwata Nigam is a lawyer and an activist. And Saira Shah Haleem, I want to begin by asking you your take on the dharm dhwaja going up and the Prime Minister referring to getting rid of this Macaulay mindset.
01:28And about 10 years from now, when it will be 200 years of Macaulay coming to India and changing the education system.
01:35Good evening, Gaurav. We need to really appreciate our honourable PM Modi's capacity to engage in clickbait, firstly, let me tell you.
01:46Now, here the challenge today is in Macaulay. It is actually inequality, because modern India's educational crisis stems not from Macaulay's 19th century policy,
01:58but from the 21st century neglect. And that neglect happens to be the underfunded schools, the corruption in the education system,
02:10linguistic biases against regional languages, systematic inequities that keep creeping up time to time again.
02:16And now when PM Modi talks about reversing Macaulayism, it is a simple rhetoric, OK?
02:24And because there are greater challenges ahead, you know, whereas we talk about our curriculum stagnation,
02:32whether it is teacher shortages, whether it is privatisation of education.
02:37So now I think it's become a very convenient way of digging out an old Englishman.
02:44And I think Mr. Nehru must be smiling from the skies, because for once he's not being criticised,
02:50and the person who's being criticised happens to be a dead Englishman.
02:53And as BJP's policies keep failing time and time again, Lord Curzon will be talked about, Mount Bahadur will be talked about,
03:01and a lot of dead Englishmen will be talked about, of course.
03:05Because here, let me iterate that the demand for English education did not come from Indian Muslims.
03:12It came from Indians, OK? Let us be very clear here.
03:17And here, if you look at it, Macaulay did not impose English education.
03:21There was a petition filed from Madras and Bengal, and in 1839, the Madras petition clearly said that there are a lot of people,
03:33it was signed by 70,000 Indian citizens who said that we want English education,
03:38because what they sought was access to modern knowledge and opportunity.
03:43If you're calling it a clickbait by the Prime Minister, and not a civilizational moment,
03:48as Prime Minister Narendra Modi referred to, I want to bring in Dr. Ajay Alok into this conversation.
03:54Dr. Alok, respond, a civilizational transition or transformation taking place,
04:00or is this just a clickbait to criticise another dead Englishman, and not focus on problems of today?
04:07Actually, PM today never wanted to politicise the event, because if you remember Macaulay,
04:19then we have to remember the followers of Macaulay, who kept on pursuing the policy,
04:24who kept on pursuing the same education policy which what Macaulay delivered to India.
04:29Today, when we have a new education policy, you were talking of a regional bias and regional language bias.
04:35Today, we are conducting exams in more than 26 languages all across the country, even in the local languages.
04:41The student can learn medicine, engineering, and all the subjects, which were not happening earlier.
04:47This is a transitional changes only.
04:49What India has seen in the last 11 years, the dramatic change, what is happening to us, what is happening to the country.
04:58We are no more only the snake charmers.
05:01Now, we are charming the world.
05:04This is the transition what has happened in the last 11 years.
05:07And PM definitely emphasised,
05:10So, what were our traditions?
05:19Imagine in a country like India, we had to fight for 500 long years just to build this Ram Temple.
05:25We don't take pride in this.
05:28Who were delaying it?
05:32Why there was no will?
05:34That yes, sentiments of 80 crores, 90 crores, now 100 crores, Hindus must be respected in this country, which was not respected.
05:41Why is appeasement politics continuously?
05:42What was the tremendous need to treat Hindus as a second great citizen in their own country?
05:50All these things is transition only, which is happening.
05:54The awakening of Hindu sentiments all across India, all across the globe, is nothing but transition.
05:59The new education policy, the new India, which people are seeing, which the world is watching and observing, is nothing but transition.
06:04It's a very pertinent point you make there and change it.
06:11Okay, so you're saying there's a transformation taking place.
06:14Before I bring in Desh Ratan Nigam, Saira Shahalim, respond to a pertinent point being made by Dr. Rajay Alok.
06:19What was being said earlier was just rhetoric.
06:23You know, examination for various fields was only in English or certain languages.
06:29Now it's in so many regional languages, more children can grow, more children can rise.
06:34They can take these entrance examinations in their own languages.
06:38So when you say one language is being imposed, isn't that rhetoric when the reality is there's equal encouragement to many, many more languages,
06:46so that we have many more engineers and doctors taking exam in their regional languages and rising, not what Macaulay said.
06:53So I'd like to tell my respected panelists, firstly, that the Macaulay system of education was not a monolith of colonial slavery,
07:04if you look into history, because we need to look at history pragmatic, right?
07:07Now, if you look at Macaulay's Minute on Indian Education, 1835, it must be read in its actual historic context
07:16and not a fragment of imagination, because you need to put things into perspective.
07:21At that time, the existing educational system was riddled in deeply hierarchical prejudices.
07:30And also, if you look at it, it was reserved for upper castes and males.
07:35And with rote learning, it often ignored the meaning or comprehension.
07:40And even before Macaulay came in, because Macaulay came in much data, there were a lot of British officials that had criticized this mechanical rote memorization without understanding.
07:54So what Macaulay did is he intervened through paternalistic methods, introduced secular and rational methods of education.
08:03He introduced, you know, a scientific rational, he introduced mathematics, philosophy, logic, that broke from the caste-bound pedagogy system of education.
08:15So if you talk, if you call this a slavery in action, it is a distortion of history.
08:21However colonial it might be, he did modernize education.
08:25Let's at least accept that.
08:26No, but were Indians taught our own culture, our own history, our own, you know, the way we were coming up?
08:36And let me bring in Deshra Tannigam into this.
08:38Or were we taught everything British is superior, everything good came from the West, and Indians were only dirty brown masses?
08:47It's the white man who had the burden to uplift them.
08:52Deshra Tannigam, respond to Saira Shah Haleem, who says the right wing is looking at Macaulay through jaundiced lenses.
09:01Gaurav, in fact, anything negative about Macaulay can be whitewashed by saying, please read it in the context.
09:09And what is the context?
09:11Macaulay wanted a certain class of people who should in appearance be Indians, but otherwise should be British.
09:17And who would be as a kind of go-between between the masses that they are governing?
09:23They never taught Indian systems, Indian history or heritage.
09:27And the whole problem, and they were the ones, through Macaulay and subsequently, they were the ones who created that Hindu-Muslim divide.
09:35That resulted in ultimately the formation of Pakistan.
09:38The fact remains that the Gurukul system that we had, the entire six systems of philosophy, which is based on logic, facts and logic, was taught there, which was discarded.
09:48The Gurukul system where the science, education, culture, heritage, everything was taught from a very early stage was destroyed through the Macaulay system of education.
09:58He was very clear in his attitude, if you have to make Indians mindset as a slave, please make them like British.
10:08And the sense of inferiority was ingrained among the Indians.
10:12The sati system which people talk about never had any sanction from our scriptures, but it was so highlighted.
10:19Johar certainly was there because the women had to save themselves from the Mughals' invasion.
10:24The fact remains that the communist leftist mindset, which they are still very troubled about, although they are becoming very extinct now, the new education policy that Dr. Alok talked about, clearly is a first, one of the few steps, which is for decolonizing Indian mindset.
10:43Ram Mandir also...
10:44Saira Shah Haleem wants to respond.
10:46Saira Shah Haleem wants to respond.
10:48I'll be very clear.
10:49I'll come to the Ram Mandir aspect in just a moment.
10:51No one is against blended education, okay?
10:56Now, again, I'm saying it is very important to know about Indian culture and history.
10:59At the same time, again, I'm iterating that the Macaulay system was co-created with Indian aspirations.
11:06And the demand for English education came from Indians themselves.
11:10Macaulay didn't impose English education upon a resistant population.
11:15Again, let's go back into history and look at the facts.
11:19In fact, people in Bengal and Madrasa...
11:21You know, what Macaulay did in 1835 is not being debated here.
11:26It's the Macaulay mindset of today that is being debated, Saira Shah Haleem.
11:30Even today, if you speak English, you are considered highly educated.
11:34Jobs are oriented in such a way.
11:36Jobs are oriented in such a way.
11:38How?
11:40The new education policy has just come in.
11:43But, you know, I'm talking about what has come in.
11:45By doing away with radical thinking.
11:48By glorifying invaders, for sure.
11:51I'm sure.
11:52Okay, doctor.
11:53You tell me, Saira Shah Haleem, should Babar be glorified as an invader and killer of the original inhabitants of this land?
12:00No one is talking about any glorification.
12:03I'm sorry.
12:04I'm sorry.
12:04No one is talking about any glorification.
12:07I'm simply iterating that history needs to be looked at pragmatically.
12:11I have been taught, and I'm a student of history.
12:15I have been taught Akbar the Great.
12:17No, no, Saira Shah Haleem, hear me out, madam.
12:19Akbar the Great.
12:20You know, you and I, when we went to school, we were taught Akbar the Great.
12:24We were never taught how Akbar carried out the massacre at Chittad, how he weighed the Janayus that we Hindus were.
12:33No, I just want to ask you.
12:35No, that's just one point.
12:37The kind of history we've been taught.
12:39So if we are trying to get rid of that mindset, did the Mughals unify, did the Mughals run away, or did they unify the country, did they add to the GTP?
12:48That is the bigger question here.
12:49It is not about who came as invaders and who did not.
12:52The idea is who contributed to the legacy.
12:55Today, today the Taj Nail and the Mughal monuments that people flock to see, the foreign tourists, the GTP, they will not deny that.
13:09See, the fact is, Gaurav, the fact is that...
13:12You know, Saira Shah Haleem, I would want you to do a comparison, but okay, Saira, Desh Ratan Nigam, go on, sir.
13:17See, the fact is, nobody is denying that Mughals should be a part of history or not.
13:23Their barbarity, their rapes, all should be a part of history, but they cannot become a part of your heritage.
13:28They are a part of history, yes.
13:30But they cannot be a part of your heritage.
13:33Please understand, they cannot be promoted as they glorified India.
13:37The GDP when the Mughals came in was about 33-34%.
13:40When the British took it over, it was 21%.
13:44Please understand, do your research.
13:46That is where India went and then subsequent decline by the British and the handshake with the Muslim League finally creating the Pakistan.
13:53We all have to understand, it has to be brought to the people of this country, to the notice of this country, so that the decolonizing of the Indian mindset should take place.
14:02And that is where Prime Minister...
14:02Okay, quickly, Ajay Alok wants to come in.
14:04...is deeply as prompted.
14:08Okay, Ajay Alok wants to come in.
14:10Sir, you wanted to come in and respond to Dr., to Ms. Saira Shah Haleem.
14:13Go on, sir.
14:14Yeah, Gaurav.
14:17Yeah, Gaurav, I just want to say to her that history is always history.
14:20Go on, sir.
14:20It could be his story, her story, whatever the story.
14:23But today, the story, the present story is what we have seen, that history has to be rewritten.
14:29We cannot glorify invaders.
14:31We cannot glorify those people who try to divide India, rather divided India.
14:36We cannot...
14:36The Britishers impose on us.
14:39It's time to get rid of that mindset and that mentality.
14:43And it's no tweaking of history.
14:45You were never right to the history.
14:47You were never right to the Indian cause.
14:49That's a legacy.
14:49All the history created during the Congress period, the kind of education imposed on Indians,
14:55that you have to study about this.
14:56You have to study about this.
14:58And do not know our own forefathers who have done so much for this country.
15:01This was not history.
15:03This was your story, what you imposed on India.
15:05And now it's a time to write the real history.
15:07And it's a time that our generation should know who Chanshikhar Rajad was,
15:11who Bushaid Bhagat Singh was, what all contributions they had to this country.
15:18Okay.
15:19That is no...
15:20Okay.
15:20Cyrus Shahidi wants to come in.
15:21British had no contribution.
15:23Go on.
15:23He was a leftist and not some right winger here.
15:26He was a leftist.
15:27Let's be very clear.
15:28Do not try and appropriate his legacy for want of freedom fighters,
15:31because your political party clearly did not have any freedom fighters in history,
15:35apart from Veer Sabarkar.
15:37Okay.
15:38And that also, he sought clemency from the British.
15:40So do not try and claim or appropriate the legacy of Shahid Bhagat Singh.
15:44He never sought clemency from the British.
15:46What you are trying to impose yourself.
15:49If you want to talk about Subhash Chandra Bose, we will talk.
15:51Those mercy letters were not written.
15:54And as for me, the first prime minister of this country was Subhash Chandra Bose.
15:57Oh, the INA, the INA that was formed by Subhash Chandra Bose...
16:01I will say that history should write the first prime minister of independent India
16:05was Subhash Chandra Bose recognized by pipe country.
16:07But this was not taught in our history.
16:09One by one.
16:10One by one.
16:11Just because the Congress and Muslim League were together.
16:12Or for partition...
16:13Do you know he stood for Bengal?
16:16Do you know that he stood for the unity of people?
16:18Do you know that he was a very progressive leader?
16:20Please do not appropriate Subhash Chandra Bose or Shahid Bhagat Singh,
16:24not even in your dreams, for want of, you know,
16:27what he called freedom fighters.
16:29Do not do that.
16:30Be very pragmatic when you're looking at history.
16:32The point that the prime minister was referring to...
16:35...with the dharm dhwaja...
16:38...with the dharm dhwaja that went up was...
16:42...decolonize our minds.
16:45Look at history from the perspective.
16:47Or look at our...
16:49Learn our own history, our own culture, our civilization.
16:52When we speak of Ram Rajya, what does that Ram Rajya mean?
16:57Everyone together.
16:59Who are these people who still want to divide us in our country?
17:02You know, the British wanted to divide and rule.
17:06But who are those who want to divide and rule even today?
17:09That's an aspect, Saira Shahleen, that really needs to be investigated.
17:13That keep dividing Hindus and various castes and keep winning.
17:18And, you know, is that a cause for concern that Ram Rajya had everyone together for a noble cause?
17:26See, I think it's time that we talk about unity rather than this whole divisive, you know,
17:31policies of, you know, the current regime, which talks about caste and community and, you know,
17:37...desh khatre mein hai and all that.
17:40I think it's time to talk about education.
17:42You talk about development.
17:44Talk about children.
17:45Talk about health.
17:46You know, talk about progress.
17:48Introduce people to, you know, the good things about India.
17:52You know, have international seminars.
17:54Have a dialogue going.
17:55Because if you look at the kind of tourism that is going on...
17:58Okay, Ajay Alok wants to respond.
17:59Because I want to stay on facts.
18:03I want to stay on facts.
18:04Ajay Alok, you wanted to respond to Saira Shahleen on the aspect that she says,
18:07...look at where the best education system is coming from instead of the divisive politics,
18:13according to her, that's being followed today.
18:19Well, the BJP and the Prime Minister never talked of divisive politics.
18:24We never talked of...
18:25What we are talking here is what actually India is.
18:28What is the essence of India?
18:30The essence of India is Hindu.
18:32It's Hinduism.
18:34And what the Prime Minister is talking about.
18:36And Hinduism is to outunite.
18:38Unlike Mr. Rahul Gandhi, who keeps on speaking about OBC, OBC, Jati, Jati.
18:44How many Jati in media?
18:45How many Jati in bureaucracy?
18:48All these kinds of words are divisive.
18:51That needs to be changed.
18:52But that Jati does not go across the Muslim factor.
18:56That Jati does not go in Muslims, where we have to take care of pasmandas.
18:59The Prime Minister has looked after pasmandas, not Mr. Rahul Gandhi, because he treats them like a boat man.
19:05This is what is divisive politics.
19:07Keep on dividing people and keep on uniting yourself.
19:10This is not real India.
19:11You have to talk of real India in today's term and where we want to be in 2047.
19:15The last 30 seconds, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show.
19:19And that is the vision and that is the essence.
19:21Okay.
19:22Okay.
19:23Deshwatan Nigam, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show.
19:27The dharm dhwaja going up today.
19:29Will it be seen just as, you know, a moment where Hindus think that it's a big thing that's happened?
19:37Or do you look at it as a civilizational moment for Bharat?
19:41Bharat, in fact, Ram Sapke hain.
19:43It's a civilizational moment for both Hindus, Muslims, Christians, who are all Indians.
19:48And therefore, to look at it from a narrow perspective by certain political parties or the communists,
19:54will not do it.
19:54It will not cut ice with the people.
19:56The fact remains, when people talk about Bhagat Singh, NCRT books called him a terrorist.
20:01Please understand that.
20:02Rather than a revolutionary.
20:04Subhash Chand go, Sardar Patel, they were icons.
20:06But they were never given a due recognition.
20:08We do not appropriate them.
20:10But we are giving them due recognition, which was due, long overdue.
20:14After 60, 65, 70 years, they are getting their due place.
20:18And therefore, icons, they are icons.
20:21And what?
20:21They are beyond Gandhi family.
20:23If a family can give Bharat Ratna to itself, it speaks high means about what they are and what they are about to go to India.
20:32So, a debate, a debate very clearly has been triggered by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
20:38But here, Ayodhya right now is truly Ram Mai.
20:43The Dharam Dhaja has gone up.
20:45Celebrations are happening.
20:46It's again very auspicious because this is the day when Maryada Purushottam, Sri Ram and Devi Sita, Mata Sita got married.
20:54So, there is one Bharat after the other that's expected in just moments from now.
21:00Some have started.
21:01Some more to happen.
21:02So, celebrations have started.
21:04The message of Ram Raj is something we'll be tracking very, very closely.
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