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Clashes were reported during Christmas celebrations in Assam, Chhattisgarh and Uttar Pradesh.
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00:00So let's raise the big questions then on a political face-off.
00:04What will it take to act against groups who target Christians?
00:07Political will missing to act against likes of Bajran Dal?
00:11Will Prime Minister attending a church service on Christmas make any difference?
00:15Too many optics, not enough action on the ground.
00:18Joining me now, two very special guests.
00:20John Britas is the CPIM's Member of Parliament in the Rajya Sabha.
00:25He joins me from Tiruvannantapuram and I'm joined by KJ Alphonse.
00:29He's been a former Union Minister in the Modi government.
00:31Appreciate both of you joining us.
00:33Merry Christmas, first of all, to both of you above all else.
00:37And lots of good cheer hopefully will be spread.
00:41But Mr. Britas, I want to ask you the big question.
00:44You've been questioning the manner in which you say groups like the BHP Bajran Dal have been given a free run to target Christians.
00:52Today the Prime Minister made a visit, prayed at a church service in the national capital.
00:57Do you believe that sends out a strong message or not?
01:01Rajdeep, see, it's like running with the hair and hunting with the horns.
01:08That's what is happening here.
01:10The Prime Minister must have spent at least three to four hours this week, apart from attending the Christian service today.
01:18He attended a Christian feast also, along with the bishops.
01:21If he had taken two minutes to address this nation saying that the attack on Christians is an attack against the Indian constitution, India against me, anybody who indulges in would be taken to task.
01:37If he had taken out two minutes and address this nation, it would have been of greater help than he attending such feasts.
01:46And I can tell you he has been conducting this drill of attending feasts and church services for the last many years.
01:55Last year also he did it.
01:56But the incidence, the violence against the Christian community has gone up early.
02:03It's almost like 500% spike.
02:06In 2014, the tax against Christians was 124.
02:10By 2024, it reached 834.
02:15This year itself, till November, it's 700.
02:18After Christmas, I'm sure that it will hit at least 1,000.
02:24This duplicity, I think this has to end.
02:27The trust deficit has to be breached.
02:30And we are all condemning the incidence in Bangladesh.
02:34What is the message this country wants to send across?
02:38Think about a scenario where this Christian community is a majority.
02:44Those countries, if there are protests against what's happening in India.
02:48It's a sad state of affairs.
02:51I'm pleading with my friend Alphonse Kandandana.
02:55He has a past.
02:56He was an aspirant.
02:58He was also part of the church.
03:00He should at least embrace upon those people who are conducting these vigilante groups.
03:07I won't call it, I mean, they are somebody outside the spectrum of RSS.
03:12It's a multi-headed hydra.
03:15It's a safran octopus with many tentacles.
03:19Which anybody and everybody who knows with the politics of India is familiar with.
03:24I think they need to.
03:26The government has to have a will.
03:29At least the prime minister or the home minister should come forward and say,
03:32this nonsense should stop here.
03:35But so far, not even a single message has been emboldened.
03:40These people go to the bishop houses with the cakes,
03:43then attack the Christians,
03:46devandalize the churches,
03:48destroy the schools elsewhere.
03:50At least in 12 states,
03:52they have passed anti-conversion laws,
03:55precisely to persecute the Christian.
03:57And what is the percentage of Christians in this country?
04:012.3%.
04:03Even in Britain,
04:05the Hindu community must be,
04:07if you add these six...
04:08I take your...
04:13You know, John,
04:14you made very strong points.
04:15Let Mr. Alphonse respond.
04:17Mr. Alphonse,
04:17I think the primary fear is that
04:21the words need to
04:24be matched by action.
04:26It's one thing,
04:27or not even the words,
04:28the fact that there are optics.
04:30It's good to have the prime minister go to a church service,
04:33meet the bishops,
04:34but what about sending a strong,
04:36tough message on the ground,
04:38prosecuting those responsible for the attacks,
04:41whether they are from the Sangh Parivar or any group?
04:43We don't see that action on the ground.
04:46And this,
04:46according to John Britas,
04:47has led to a trust deficit.
04:49How do you respond?
04:53I think it's very clear.
04:56The Honorable Prime Minister
04:57has made it repeatedly clear to the nation,
05:01including a trust of the Vijayan Bhaman.
05:04I think John Britas wasn't there,
05:06has been here about it.
05:08Made it very clear that this country belongs to everybody,
05:11that this nation belongs to everybody,
05:14that he works in the interests of everybody,
05:17he will protect and preserve the constitution,
05:19he will protect the right to life
05:21and the right to liberty of every citizen.
05:23He's made it very, very clear
05:25in Christian meetings or otherwise.
05:28And,
05:28John,
05:29you must be here,
05:30you've been in politics long enough,
05:33you must be here now.
05:33But then what explains the attacks?
05:35What explains,
05:36Sir, what explains the increased attacks then?
05:39What explains the fact that
05:40the number of attacks have increased?
05:41Go ahead, please.
05:42Rajdeep,
05:43I mean,
05:44John let out a lot of figures.
05:46I have no means to verify it.
05:47Even you won't have a means to verify it,
05:49just now,
05:49because he just lets it out now.
05:51I don't trust his numbers.
05:53In a country of 1.47 billion people,
05:56Rajdeep,
05:57there is bound to be
05:58some crazy people,
06:00some nuts.
06:01Now,
06:01let me take my own church.
06:02I'm a Syrian Catholic.
06:04The entire Diocese of Hernangalem,
06:06the laity,
06:07is up in arms against the head of the church.
06:08They want to kill him,
06:09they want to murder him,
06:10they want to replace him.
06:11It's been going on for the past five years.
06:13My own Syrian Catholic Church,
06:15John,
06:15you are aware of that.
06:17Therefore,
06:17there are,
06:18you know,
06:18crazy people in this country,
06:19in the world.
06:20I mean,
06:20look at the U.S.
06:21Every day,
06:21there is a shooting happening
06:23in every city.
06:24Take European countries.
06:26Do we call them
06:26absolutely anarchic countries?
06:28You don't.
06:28When this happens in India,
06:31you can kind of convert
06:33small little incidents
06:34into massive things
06:36and you say,
06:36every time
06:37anything happens,
06:38somebody touches somebody else,
06:40Modi must answer,
06:41the prime minister is responsible.
06:43Rajdeep,
06:43this is not rational.
06:45This is irrational.
06:46In a large country like ours,
06:48where you have huge difference
06:50in culture,
06:51language,
06:52heritage,
06:52there is boundary affliction
06:54and India has managed pretty well
06:56and Christians in India
06:57have done pretty well.
06:58Take the Syrian Christian community.
07:00I mean,
07:00the majority of Christians in India
07:02live in Kerala.
07:03They have absolutely no problem.
07:05Who is ever a character?
07:05Yeah, because GDP has never ruled Kerala,
07:07Alphonse.
07:08That's why.
07:09It's part of India, John.
07:11John,
07:12John,
07:12let him complete.
07:13Let Mr. Alphonse complete.
07:15No, no,
07:15let Mr. Alphonse complete.
07:17Let me complete.
07:18And therefore,
07:19see,
07:19the prime minister has made it very clear
07:21this is not permissible.
07:23He said that in Vigyan Bhavan
07:24in the meeting of Christian bishops
07:26many years back,
07:27John was not aware of this,
07:28the prime minister has repeatedly said
07:30this constitution of India
07:33will be implemented in the country
07:35irrespective of religious meetings.
07:37Now,
07:38if you crazy people do this,
07:41you can't really blame the prime minister
07:43or the party which is in power.
07:45Let me ask you, John,
07:46you talked about the anti-conversion bill.
07:49Who introduced the anti-conversion bill in India?
07:51It was in 1967 in Madhya Pradesh
07:53when Congress was in power.
07:56They introduced anti-conversion bills
07:58in six states ruled by the Congress.
07:59Was it BJP which did this?
08:01The biggest communal violence in India
08:03happened when the Congress was in power.
08:05When you were in power,
08:06you were supporting the Congress party.
08:08How many communal classes happened,
08:10John,
08:10in this country?
08:11Are you blind to all these things?
08:13Are you blind to what happened in China
08:15during the Cultural Revolution
08:17or under Lenin?
08:1720,
08:1825 million people killed?
08:20You don't have a word,
08:22a decibel to say about these things.
08:24You talk about
08:25when you have a...
08:26One minute.
08:27Okay.
08:28Can I...
08:31Before I go back to John,
08:33you know,
08:33you've used the word crazies
08:35three times,
08:36Mr. Alphonse.
08:37Are you saying
08:38that groups like
08:38the Bajrang Dal
08:39and BHP,
08:40which are part of a wider
08:41Sangh Parivar,
08:43which John Britas is saying
08:45is a Hydra-headed entity,
08:48I mean,
08:48these are part of
08:49the wider Sangh Parivar.
08:50If the Prime Minister
08:51cannot control them,
08:52who is he to control?
08:54Surely,
08:54these are groups.
08:55One strong message
08:56from the RSS Sarsang Chalak
08:58or from the Prime Minister
08:59surely will at least
09:00send a signal.
09:01You need to prosecute
09:02the likes of that
09:03Anju Bhargava
09:04who assaulted
09:05a visually impaired woman.
09:06The moment you do that,
09:08the moment you arrest
09:09and prosecute them
09:10under strict laws,
09:11surely that will be
09:12the message.
09:13That will be more effective,
09:14many believe,
09:15than simply going
09:16and praying in church.
09:18Raj Deiva,
09:19let me come in here.
09:20Raj Deiva,
09:21you talked about
09:22the RSS.
09:23The RSS chief
09:24has repeatedly said,
09:26I can give you,
09:26send you 10 clippings
09:28where he said
09:29this country belongs
09:30to Hindus,
09:31Christians,
09:32Muslims and Sikhs.
09:33He said,
09:33nobody has a monopoly
09:35on India,
09:36on culture.
09:37We all need to survive
09:38here together,
09:39live here peacefully,
09:40happily.
09:40And today Christmas
09:41is a day of happiness,
09:42of peace.
09:43And therefore,
09:44Raj Deiva,
09:45when there are
09:46some hooligans out there
09:47in a country
09:48of 1.47 million people,
09:49there are bound to be
09:50some hooligans out there.
09:52Like I said,
09:52in my church,
09:53there are plenty of hooligans.
09:54You can't really blame
09:55the prime minister
09:56or the party in power
09:57every time somebody
09:58just pushes somebody
09:59around,
10:00somebody,
10:01sorry,
10:01all this is unacceptable.
10:02I completely agree
10:04none of these incidents
10:05are acceptable at all.
10:07Absolutely zero tolerance
10:08towards any of these things.
10:10But,
10:10in a country
10:11where you don't
10:12control everything,
10:13John Brutas,
10:13you know,
10:14you don't even
10:15control your own children,
10:16do you?
10:16I don't.
10:17They do things
10:19on their own,
10:19if we will.
10:20In a country
10:20of 1.47 million people,
10:21how do you do that?
10:22Let Mr. Brutas,
10:25Raj Deiva,
10:26I am completely
10:27taking a look at it.
10:27Okay,
10:27let Mr. Brutas respond.
10:28The point that Mr. Alphonse
10:30is making
10:30that a few instances
10:31according to him,
10:32in a country
10:33of 1.47 billion people,
10:35you can't use
10:36these few instances
10:37according to him,
10:38few.
10:39I feel even
10:39one instance
10:40is one instance
10:41too many,
10:41but you can't use it
10:42to expect
10:42the Prime Minister
10:43to act
10:44in each instance
10:45or target him
10:46in each instance.
10:48Raj Deiva,
10:49I am completely
10:49taken aback
10:50with the statement
10:53made by my
10:54honourable friend.
10:57See,
10:57he is saying
10:58that some people
10:59who are nuts,
11:00lunatics,
11:01are making it.
11:02Is he not aware
11:03of the fact
11:04that the Sangperwar
11:05organisations
11:06called for a band
11:07in Chathisgat
11:08on Christmas Eve?
11:11Is he not aware
11:12of the fact
11:13that VSP
11:13issued a circular
11:15that the Hindus
11:16should not participate
11:17in Christian celebration?
11:19Is he not aware
11:20about the fact
11:21that their district
11:22vice president
11:22was involved,
11:24as Raj Deiva said,
11:25in attacking
11:26a visually
11:27impaired woman?
11:28Is he not aware
11:29about the fact
11:30that even in the
11:31capital city
11:32in Laspatnagar,
11:34just because women
11:35and children
11:36were wearing
11:36sandha caps,
11:37they were attacked?
11:39Is he not aware
11:39about the circular
11:41issued by
11:42certain schools
11:43and departments,
11:44Uttar Pradesh,
11:45Uttaragand,
11:46that this will not
11:47be Christmas,
11:48this will be
11:48an adult celebration?
11:50Is he not aware
11:51about the statement
11:53issued by the CBCI,
11:55which hosted
11:55the Prime Minister,
11:57that there is a spike
11:58in the attack
11:58against the Christians?
12:00We will.
12:00This is something
12:01which is very tragic.
12:03Is he not aware
12:03about that?
12:05Is he not
12:05living in India?
12:06I am surprised.
12:08Even the hate
12:08and hatred
12:09is reaching
12:10the shores
12:11of Kerala.
12:12The other day
12:13in Kerala,
12:14the RSS people
12:15attacked the person
12:16saying that
12:18he is a Bangladeshi.
12:19He was from
12:19Chathiskan.
12:20And another day,
12:22they attacked
12:23a Keral
12:25in Kerala.
12:27The same people
12:28who visit
12:30the bishop houses
12:31with the cakes
12:31have the audacity
12:33to say all
12:34this nonsense.
12:35And I am telling
12:36you that
12:37is it not a fact
12:38that the CBCI
12:39hosted the Prime Minister
12:40last year
12:41and the CBCI
12:43issued a statement
12:44two days back
12:45saying that
12:46the attacks
12:47that are happening
12:47in Jabalpur,
12:48attacks happening
12:49in Madhya Pradesh,
12:50attacks happening
12:51in Chhattisgarh,
12:52UP, Uttarakhand,
12:53Assam
12:54are something
12:55which are
12:55contaminable
12:56and the government
12:56of India
12:57needs to act.
12:58How is it
12:59that a person
13:00who is loaded
13:01like Alphonse
13:02Kandandhanam
13:02is oblivious
13:03about the fact?
13:05And Rajdeep,
13:06I was surprised
13:07if the Prime Minister
13:09has...
13:09Can I?
13:10Rajdeep,
13:11I have to go.
13:11I have to go
13:12because I have an appointment.
13:13If you give me one minute.
13:15If you give me one minute.
13:17I'll get you
13:17a last word,
13:19Mr. Alphonse.
13:20I have to go
13:20because I have an appointment.
13:22If the Prime Minister
13:23had
13:23attached
13:24one person
13:25of sincerity
13:26with regard
13:27to the post
13:28he'd made it
13:29saying that
13:29Christmas
13:30is a timeless
13:31message of love,
13:33peace,
13:34compassion.
13:35May the spirit
13:36of Christmas
13:36inspire harmony
13:38and goodwill.
13:40My good God,
13:42he should exhort
13:43his fellow passengers.
13:45He should exhort
13:46his fellow travellers
13:47in Sangperi War.
13:49And as I told you,
13:51now I am sure
13:53that Sangperi War
13:54must have started
13:55another organisation
13:56of nuts and lunatics.
13:58If they say that
13:59it's been done
14:00by nuts and lunatics
14:01like the
14:02N number of
14:03multi-
14:04They would have
14:05formed a
14:05Mr. Britas,
14:08you've made
14:08some very
14:09strong points.
14:13Let Mr. Alphonse
14:13who has to leave
14:14respond to that.
14:15Mr. Alphonse,
14:16the fact is,
14:17I mean,
14:17look at Uttar Pradesh.
14:19All schools
14:20mandatorily
14:21no holiday
14:21on Christmas,
14:22good governance day.
14:24There are calls
14:24for band
14:25given by organisations
14:26like Bajrang Dal
14:27in some tribal areas.
14:29There are pressures
14:30put on those
14:31who've converted
14:32tribals who have
14:32converted their
14:33ostracised.
14:34There's a sense
14:35that this is being
14:35organised.
14:36Earlier it used
14:37to be strange
14:37since the fear
14:38is now they feel
14:39empowered and can
14:40act with impunity
14:41that no one
14:42will touch us
14:43because somehow
14:44or the other
14:44the leadership
14:45in power,
14:46whatever they may
14:47say in public,
14:48privately says,
14:49you know,
14:50there is a problem
14:50with Christianity,
14:51there are too
14:52many people
14:53being forcibly
14:53converted
14:54and that is
14:55leading to them
14:57feeling a sense
14:57being emboldened.
14:59Ideologically,
15:00they are all one.
15:00That's the fear.
15:03I mean,
15:04what Brita is saying
15:05is complete untruth.
15:07The RSS has never
15:08said,
15:09we don't celebrate
15:11Christmas.
15:11If there is some
15:12small little tiny
15:13organisation in
15:14the village level
15:15or a panchayat level
15:16says that,
15:17come on Brita,
15:18you can't make that
15:19as a national
15:19call of the RSS
15:21or of the ruling
15:22party.
15:23Children are not
15:23being given a
15:24holiday.
15:25Sir,
15:26the children are
15:26not officially
15:27being given
15:28a holiday in
15:28India's most
15:29populous state
15:30of Uttar Pradesh.
15:31In every school,
15:33in every church,
15:34children gather
15:34in the school
15:35on Christmas Day
15:36for Christmas
15:37celebrations.
15:38So,
15:38the school
15:39celebrating Christmas
15:40is not a surprise.
15:41All across the
15:42country,
15:42Christian schools
15:43celebrate Christmas
15:44and therefore,
15:45today,
15:46children not
15:47being allowed
15:48to stay home.
15:49No,
15:49Christmas is
15:50celebrating in
15:50every Christian
15:51school.
15:52In these states
15:53also,
15:53they are celebrating.
15:54So,
15:54even UP,
15:55they say,
15:55come to the school,
15:56celebrate anything
15:57you want,
15:57including Christmas.
15:58They celebrate
15:58on the previous day.
15:59They celebrate
16:01on the previous day.
16:02I mean,
16:03Rajiv,
16:03I can point out
16:04a million cases
16:07atrociousness in
16:08communist rule,
16:09Kerala,
16:10where there is
16:11absolute violation
16:12of fundamental rights.
16:14He mentioned
16:14about a Pallagard case
16:15where a person
16:16was killed.
16:17I mean,
16:17it's absolutely
16:18unacceptable.
16:19The entire Kerala
16:20has risen up
16:21as one.
16:22Nobody has ever
16:23said it's an
16:23RSS person.
16:25John,
16:25you are completely
16:26wrong.
16:27Your government
16:28in Kerala
16:28has completely
16:29failed in
16:30maintaining law
16:31and order,
16:31protecting life.
16:32And now,
16:33you come around
16:34and say
16:34an RSS person
16:35is killed.
16:36John,
16:36this is atrocious.
16:37You don't know
16:38what is happening
16:38in your own state.
16:39Set your state
16:40right, John,
16:42before you talk
16:42about the country.
16:43We want a country
16:44that will be peace
16:45on earth.
16:46We want a message
16:46of Jesus
16:47that we all live
16:48peacefully
16:48all across India.
16:50The Prime Minister
16:50has said that
16:51many times.
16:52The RSS chief
16:53has said many times.
16:54Now,
16:55if people,
16:55some crazy people
16:57here and there
16:57do crazy things,
16:59please do not
17:00hold the Prime Minister.
17:01You are much more
17:01responsible.
17:02You are much more
17:03intelligent than that
17:04to say these things.
17:05Sorry,
17:06I have to run
17:07because I have
17:07an appointment.
17:08Thank you so much.
17:09Okay.
17:10I want to leave
17:11both of you there.
17:12No,
17:12I appreciate both of you.
17:13I want to again
17:14wish you a Merry Christmas.
17:15But I believe
17:16that the true spirit
17:17of Christmas
17:18is not just saying
17:19Merry Christmas.
17:20Let me then bring you
17:21my take.
17:23Okay,
17:23my take.
17:24It's Christmas,
17:25a day of joy
17:26and good cheer
17:28and hope,
17:29which is why
17:29it is depressing
17:30that on a day like this
17:32we should be trapped
17:32in the politics
17:33of hate,
17:34bigotry
17:34and indeed
17:35in some instances
17:36violence.
17:37The Prime Minister
17:38did well to send out
17:39a positive message
17:40by attending
17:41a church service.
17:43But I am afraid
17:44that such meetings
17:45end up being
17:47lip service
17:48if not followed
17:49by concrete action
17:51on the ground.
17:53Especially when
17:54groups like
17:55Bhajrang Dal
17:55and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad,
17:57part of the wider
17:58Sang Parivar,
17:59are no longer
18:00the crazies
18:01that you might
18:02assume they
18:02to be,
18:03but they keep
18:04targeting
18:05Christian schools,
18:07establishments,
18:09especially in
18:09tribal areas
18:10in the belief
18:11that they have
18:12some kind of
18:13immunity
18:14from the law.
18:16Make no mistake,
18:17I repeat,
18:18these groups
18:19are part
18:19of a wider
18:20ideological mindset.
18:23Words,
18:23therefore,
18:24need to translate
18:25into concrete
18:26action on the ground.
18:28else I am afraid
18:29it becomes
18:30a case
18:31of running
18:32with the hair
18:32with fine optics
18:34but then
18:35hunting with the hound
18:36when it comes
18:38to targeted
18:39attacks.
18:40And yes,
18:41my friends,
18:42please tell me,
18:43why is it
18:44that in India's
18:45most populous
18:45state of Uttar Pradesh,
18:47Christmas is not
18:48a holiday
18:49for schools there,
18:51especially in a
18:51country where
18:52we give holidays
18:53for every
18:54religious festival.
18:56What is this
18:56good governance
18:57day that we've
18:58suddenly brought
18:59in on the 25th
19:01of December?
19:02Truth is,
19:03these are
19:04dangerous messages
19:05because they only
19:06lead to the
19:07brainwashing
19:08of the young
19:09that you don't
19:10even need
19:10necessarily
19:11to celebrate
19:13Christmas.
19:14Oh, by the way,
19:15I know many
19:16Hindutva minded
19:17people,
19:18even in Uttar Pradesh,
19:19who are desperate
19:20to send their
19:21children to
19:22Christian-run
19:23missionary schools.
19:25The hypocrisy,
19:26my friends,
19:27is staggering
19:28and must end
19:29now.
19:31Think about it.
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