Escape From the Cult With No Name: Global Missions | Matt Hannigan | Episode 456 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Matt discuss growing up in Global Missions, a movement rooted in the Latter Rain revival, and how its doctrines of five-fold ministry, sonship, and prophetic authority shaped their lives. Matt shares what it was like to be born into this third-generation high-control group, his struggles with fear, dating, and suppressed critical thinking, and how he eventually found freedom through outside connections and careful study. Together, they explore how groups attempt to cover up their history, why reformation claims often fail, and how the same mechanisms of authoritarian control can appear in different denominations. The conversation also touches on William Branham’s influence, British Israelism, the connection to Jim Jones, and the challenges of trusting God versus human leaders. This heartfelt dialogue offers encouragement to those leaving similar movements and highlights the importance of grounding faith in Christ rather than cult structures.    00:00 Introduction 01:10 Growing Up in the Sharon Orphanage Church 05:00 Core Errors of the Five-Fold Ministry and Sonship Theology 09:00 The Misplaced Trust Problem in Authoritarian Faith 13:00 Jim Jones, Apostolic Control, and the Perils of Human Authority 17:00 The Nameless Church: Concealing Origins of the Latter Rain 27:00 Apostolic Claims, British Israelism, and Hidden History 33:00 Cover-Ups and Cult Parallels from Branhamism to Jonestown 40:00 “The True Church” Mentality and Us-Versus-Them Indoctrination 47:00 Healing from Control: Learning to Trust Again 54:00 Escaping the Cult: Realizing It Was Never the Gospel 1:02:00 Closing Reflections on Faith and Freedom  ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org.

00:00:43And with me, I have my very special guest, Matt Hannigan, former member of Global Missions.

00:00:49Matt, it's good to have you on.

00:00:51I have actually wanted to have somebody on from Global Missions.

00:00:55I haven't even told you this, but I've been in contact with other people out of Global

00:01:01Missions, some of which are ranking members and trying to get somebody to open up and

00:01:07talk about it.

00:01:08And lo and behold, you contacted me and you are the first person that is willing and able

00:01:13to talk about it.

00:01:14So thank you for joining.

00:01:16Maybe you can tell everybody just a little bit about yourself.

00:01:18Yeah, I know.

00:01:19I appreciate it.

00:01:20Long-time listener, first-time caller.

00:01:22I've been enjoying the podcast for a long time now.

00:01:26I got your book and read it or listened to it on Audible, Preacher Behind the White Hoods.

00:01:32And I took, I guess I got two firsts out of this.

00:01:38I'm the first person who grew up going to the Sharon Orphanage Church every Sunday in North

00:01:43Battleford to come on the podcast.

00:01:45And the second first was I was the first person to write your book on Audible, apparently.

00:01:51So happy to be, you know, to have two firsts for the podcast.

00:01:56But yeah, I, boy, I think I left 34 and I left when I was 27.

00:02:04But there was a long road, you know, coming up from when I was born into it.

00:02:10You know, my father was born into it, some kind of third generation into this, you know,

00:02:16high control group.

00:02:18And boy, there was a lot of, I just experienced a lot of like really weird things growing up

00:02:24that were normal to me, but were, you know, looking back on them, were very, very strange.

00:02:30And a lot of my like struggle these days is like kind of like pulling apart, like what

00:02:35was weird and what was like heresy and what was actually like wrong and bad versus what

00:02:43was just weird, you know, what was just strange and pretty much harmless other than it just

00:02:46being a little bit strange.

00:02:48So yeah, it's been, it's been quite the road.

00:02:50But yeah, I've maintained my faith and I, I still am a believer and I go to a different

00:02:56church now that's a lot healthier.

00:02:59So I'm very thankful to God for that, for my faith and my ability to, you know, maintain

00:03:05my faith and all through his grace, of course.

00:03:07But yeah, it's been, it's been quite the road.

00:03:10But I, like I said, I've been really enjoying the podcast.

00:03:14It's helped me understand how things came to be and why things were the way they were.

00:03:19And it's given me a lot of peace, just being able to see, um, that I'm not alone in all

00:03:25of this.

00:03:25So I appreciate your work, John.

00:03:27Well, thank you.

00:03:28I'm glad it has helped in some way.

00:03:30And it is odd.

00:03:31You know, I've, as I said, I've spoken to other people who are in the movement and not

00:03:35just this one.

00:03:36I've talked to many people who have, are either still in or were closely affiliated with other

00:03:43similar movements.

00:03:44And many of them like global missions will say we have reformed.

00:03:48And the question that always goes through my head is, well, how much did you reform?

00:03:53Did you put a pretty bow and tie on top of the package that was already there?

00:03:58Or what is it?

00:04:00I'm a, one of the many hobbies I have, which I don't think I've talked about much is I'm

00:04:05into cars and car restoration.

00:04:07And I have an old sports car that I tinker with and I like to make it back to the pure

00:04:14original.

00:04:14That's how I, how I work on my car.

00:04:17Well, if I had a, if somebody were driving an old dump truck and tried to turn into a

00:04:23sports car, but left the whole frame of the dump truck, can you really call it a new sports

00:04:29car?

00:04:29And would you even want to drive it in the first place?

00:04:33That's kind of how I look at these things.

00:04:35And you're right there.

00:04:36There's so many parts to go through and filter and try to understand because some of the things

00:04:43that were taught are very healthy.

00:04:44Some are good, pure.

00:04:46Some have good intentions.

00:04:48And then there's always that thing that you're wondering in the back of your mind, what does

00:04:54that, what is this harmful thing that I'm sensing here?

00:04:58How can it affect my life?

00:04:59How can it affect the lives of my children?

00:05:02So I'm glad you're, you're able to talk about this.

00:05:05Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:06No, I, I can really identify with that analogy because I think that the thing that really got

00:05:11me to take another look at leaving the church was, you know, thinking about like, is it

00:05:18is it superficial things that are wrong or is it fundamental things that are wrong?

00:05:22And what I found is that it was, you know, the fundamental teachings of the church that

00:05:28were actually unbiblical and actually harmful.

00:05:31And it was the superficial things that were great, you know, all the relationships and the

00:05:36family and the friends and the activities, like nothing wrong with that.

00:05:39And everybody needs a, you know, a good, strong community.

00:05:41And I still have, I'm very happy to say I still have lots of friends in the church.

00:05:46And I think everyone there now, I mean, anyone who's left, they're a true believer, right?

00:05:51Like they, they are not trying to deceive anyone.

00:05:54They are a true believer.

00:05:55They really believe what they're teaching.

00:05:57But that's what I ultimately landed on was the, it's the core fundamental theology that's

00:06:03wrong.

00:06:03It's, it's the five-fold ministry doctrine.

00:06:05It's the sons and sonship doctrine.

00:06:09It's the, you know, laying on of the hands of the presbytery and the, and the impartation

00:06:16of gifts through, you know, prophecy and all these things that I just don't think there's

00:06:22a, I don't think there's a lot of thought that's, that has gone into, you know, whether

00:06:29or not these things are safe or they are biblically appropriate and any kind of claim of, of the

00:06:37church being reformed, like, yeah, I mean, they may have dressed it up.

00:06:40They may have put the, you know, the body of a Corvette on the dump truck frame, but it's

00:06:46still the dump truck frame at the end of the day.

00:06:48It's, they're, they're not going to leave behind the sons and sonship doctrine of the

00:06:52five-fold ministry or anything like that.

00:06:53Like those are core things that, you know, probably one out of every four message preached

00:06:59at these churches during the camps or during the Sunday services, you know, where there's

00:07:04different assemblies around Canada and the United States and elsewhere.

00:07:09Yeah, it's going to be on sons and sonship or, you know, the prophecies in 1948 that, you

00:07:15know, talked about, you know, reestablishing the gifts and the five-fold ministry and, and

00:07:21all those doctrines that, um, really came out of the, uh, you know, message cult.

00:07:28Absolutely.

00:07:29And one of the things that people struggle with when they're in such a movement is the

00:07:34ability to critically think and re-examine the doctrines without fear of eternal damnation.

00:07:41There's always that fear in the back of your mind.

00:07:43Well, if I question this, well, if I examine this, what if I get it wrong?

00:07:47And I went through it too.

00:07:49I went through it for a long time and I finally came to the conclusion that as I'm peeling

00:07:54back all of the layers of these things that were taught in my head, these doctrines, not

00:07:59only were they doctrines of men, they served a different purpose.

00:08:03They misapplied trust.

00:08:05And many people who are in the movements do not really think about trust.

00:08:10But in fact, I just got an email today on the same subject and I get these all the time.

00:08:16People say, all you're doing is critically examining.

00:08:19You're never pointing people to where they should go.

00:08:22In other words, you're, you're announcing all of the critical flaws, but you're not giving

00:08:28them the name of the church that they should attend.

00:08:30That's usually where this ends up, which I never do this.

00:08:33I let people take their own journey.

00:08:35But what it says when I'm reading that is this person who has written this to me does

00:08:43not trust that God will lead the person, that God is in full control.

00:08:47And therefore, we need a human being to step down, tell people what they should do, tell

00:08:52people what they should believe, where they should go, all of these things.

00:08:56And if somebody's crying out, hey, there's danger in this water, don't swim, well, they're

00:09:02trying to say that the person that is getting the people out of the water should also take

00:09:06them to the swimming pool.

00:09:07And that's not usually how this works, right?

00:09:10But it's all about the trust.

00:09:11If you trust that God is all powerful, then it doesn't matter if you help somebody out

00:09:17of the water where there's sharks, then God's going to lead them to where they should

00:09:22go.

00:09:22But if you don't trust God and you think God is weak, you need a human to do it.

00:09:28That's where the problem comes in for me, because where is that balance of power?

00:09:32You're actually taking the humans and you're putting them in place of the God.

00:09:36And quite frankly, and quite bluntly, you're basically usurping the role of the Holy Spirit.

00:09:43So a person who asked this question does not actually believe what the Bible says about

00:09:47the Holy Spirit.

00:09:48Yeah, the role of the Holy Spirit is super critical when it comes to our

00:09:53sanctification, right?

00:09:54Like salvation is a free and wonderful gift, but it's like, what happens after that?

00:10:00Well, we need to submit to the Holy Spirit.

00:10:02That's something that we can only do as individuals, right?

00:10:06And that cannot be infringed upon by any other person.

00:10:10And otherwise it will, yeah, it won't, it'll just get in the way of the process because it

00:10:17has to be a very personal, has to be a very personal relationship with the Holy Spirit

00:10:23and that sanctification.

00:10:24So, yeah, I think, you know, that was one of the things that really bothered me was the

00:10:29claim that all of the brethren at the Sharon Orphanage were apostolic.

00:10:34And I just could not get over that.

00:10:36It was like, you know, especially when I started doing some more reading myself and the Bible

00:10:42about like, you know, when the disciples are looking to replace Judas, they talk about

00:10:48what the requirements are to be an apostle.

00:10:51And it was like somebody who has seen Christ on earth.

00:10:57And then more, moreover, there's early church fathers that wrote about how they did not

00:11:04think that the headship of apostles passed down to their, you know, passed on, you know,

00:11:12past that, you know, 100, like the year 100, like it was just like, these were the apostles,

00:11:18they saw Christ in the flesh and like Paul being the, the most, you know, extreme example

00:11:27of that where Christ met him on the road to Damascus, but he still appeared to him and

00:11:33he saw Christ.

00:11:34And it's very likely that Paul did see Christ as a human being before his death because he

00:11:40was around, obviously.

00:11:41So that claim of, of apostolic headship or, or having some kind of apostolic position in

00:11:51the church just seemed so incredulous to me, but the, I felt like the bent, like, even if

00:11:57it was true, it's like the benefits of having a leader that was apostolic did not outweigh

00:12:04the downsides of having a leader that was apostolic because suddenly you have this person who's

00:12:11just a man who is basically on par with scripture, like, that's going to go wrong every single

00:12:20time, like every single time that's going to go wrong because how, how, how are we as

00:12:25like responsible church members supposed to differentiate between their opinion and their

00:12:31apostolic direction?

00:12:33Absolutely.

00:12:33There's not a case where that goes right.

00:12:35Even if the person has good intentions and for some sake of, you know, some sake of a

00:12:42example that I don't believe exists, say that they are 100% on par with scripture, which I

00:12:48question this, that doesn't mean that they will always be this way.

00:12:52And so if you're putting your trust in this person, there are many things that can happen.

00:12:56And some of them, the movement itself defies, like a person can start out good, have good

00:13:02intentions, and then go through some sort of a mental health battle or some sort of a

00:13:08trauma that causes mental health conditions.

00:13:11And then their personality shifts or changes and their mood changes.

00:13:17And even to some extent, their belief can change in this way.

00:13:20But that doesn't mean that the person is on par with scripture the entire time.

00:13:25Their entire belief system can sometimes change, not by their own will.

00:13:29And we've seen examples.

00:13:32So I've studied Jim Jones.

00:13:34I've been working with the Jonestown Foundation.

00:13:36This is a person who actually started out seemingly pretty good.

00:13:40He had some fundamental flaws in his childhood makeup.

00:13:44He had some trauma that he had to get over.

00:13:47But his intentions were really good if you look at the Indianapolis years.

00:13:50Those are the same years he came into the movement.

00:13:53So he came into the movement, decided that, ironically, that this movement is not of God.

00:14:00I'm leaving it.

00:14:01And Jim Jones, of all people, left the movement and said, I'm done with this.

00:14:05But look where he went.

00:14:07And this is a person, like I said, good intentions, started out well, discovered all of the flaws

00:14:12in the movement.

00:14:13And then something happened and he snapped.

00:14:15I can't yet find what this is.

00:14:18Maybe he always had some sort of a mental health issue all along.

00:14:23If you read the book, The Raven, it's that way.

00:14:25But where I'm headed with all of this is if you put your trust in a human being, you're

00:14:30putting your trust in a human being as though it is forever in time instead of just this

00:14:35minute.

00:14:36And that's really the problem for me.

00:14:38We need to live for just this minute.

00:14:40We don't need to leave with the expectation that somebody is a superhuman.

00:14:44Agreed.

00:14:45Yeah, 100%.

00:14:45And on the subject of Jim Jones, I haven't read The Raven, but I have listened to Daryl

00:14:52Cooper's podcast.

00:14:54And I think it's an eight-part series on Jim Jones.

00:14:59And they're like five or six hours apiece, right?

00:15:02So it might as well be a book.

00:15:03But he drew a lot from The Raven, a lot of sources from it.

00:15:07And it really humanized Jones.

00:15:10It was really shocking to me because Jones is typically public enemy number one when people

00:15:15are talking about him.

00:15:16But I think it increased the impact of Jones' kind of descent into hell because he did start

00:15:25out with this grand vision for what church should be.

00:15:30I don't know if he ever really believed in Christianity, but he certainly believed that

00:15:35he was his brother's keeper.

00:15:36And he certainly believed that he, you know, it was his responsibility to take care of the

00:15:43people that were coming to his church.

00:15:44Like the one story, for instance, where he just, instead of preaching, he just got up

00:15:49at the front and basically asked anyone if they were having a problem.

00:15:53And this one lady said, well, I am behind on paying my power bill because, like, I just

00:16:02can't keep up with it.

00:16:04But on top of that, they also won't come and fix it.

00:16:07And so I've been asking them for months and months and their power is out.

00:16:12So I don't feel like I should pay for it if it's not working.

00:16:14But then they keep telling me that.

00:16:15And so what he did is he sat down there and he wrote a letter to the city and he got everyone

00:16:19in the church to sign it and then he sent it in, sure enough, the power company came

00:16:23and fixed this old lady's, you know, home.

00:16:26So it shows you that he had really good intentions, but that is not a precondition for apostolic

00:16:35authority.

00:16:36Like, good intentions, right?

00:16:39What's the road to hell paved with, right?

00:16:41Like, we know the old adage and it's because it's true.

00:16:44And yeah, like, I think there are a lot of good intentions, you know, at the, that North

00:16:50Battleford group, Global Missions Church.

00:16:54Yeah, I just, I'll take an aside to speak about that for a second.

00:16:57I grew up with the understanding that our church did not have a name and it was the nameless

00:17:04church.

00:17:04And everybody that I talked to who asked me which church I went to, I had this, you know,

00:17:11whole spiel, you know, ever since I was like six or seven years old to talk about why my

00:17:17church didn't have a name.

00:17:18And it was programmed in pretty early that, you know, names just divide people and, you

00:17:25know, we're not part of a denomination.

00:17:27Like, they didn't even like to say that we were non-denominational, but I'm pretty sure

00:17:31now that that was just a way of kind of shedding any kind of associations with past

00:17:37groups because, boy, in the early years of the, of the movement, they were very happy

00:17:42to be associated with certain groups like Foursquare Church and, you know, Amy Semple

00:17:47McPherson and, you know, lots of different, you know, message leaders.

00:17:53I'll never stop being amazed at how many groups try to conceal their past.

00:17:57It seems like that's the case.

00:17:59And I truly believe that good intentions are there.

00:18:02They try to reform, but whenever you, whenever you literally say, we're going to reform by

00:18:09not letting everybody know where we came from, you're leaving the foundation of where you

00:18:13came from.

00:18:14That's really the problem here.

00:18:16And even, you know, in that, there are some groups that I think probably have reformed and

00:18:21probably are on a, are on a good trajectory.

00:18:24But the moment that somebody comes across that past, if you're not open about it, well, how,

00:18:31what else are they hiding?

00:18:32If they're hiding this, what else are they hiding?

00:18:34That's usually what goes through the heads of the people.

00:18:36And it, it just goes to show that if you put your trust in a human being, humans do not

00:18:41like to find a black eye in, in any scenario.

00:18:45So there's, there's ways that they try to avoid the skepticism.

00:18:50One of the ways is covering it up, but in doing so, you lose your transparency.

00:18:53And so that for me, honestly, in all that I left in Branhamism, I probably, had they been

00:19:00transparent with me, I would probably still be in that destructive group, which is ironic

00:19:05because I would have never known they're covering something up.

00:19:08Once I found out I'm gone.

00:19:10Yeah.

00:19:10And then I think, yeah, it's, I mean, praise the Lord though, right?

00:19:15That they weren't, you know, that they weren't more manipulative because that was something

00:19:19else that I heard a lot growing up as a, you know, as a teenager, like I, you know, being

00:19:24the son of one of the traveling ministries, which is basically being the son of one of

00:19:28the leaders, um, I really felt like I needed to kind of, uh, in my own social circles, kind

00:19:35of suppress questions and be the good, the good follower and, and, you know, be the, be

00:19:41the example of what we were supposed to be.

00:19:43And I found that there was this one teaching that I just, it just really bothered me.

00:19:50And it was called putting it, putting it on the shelf.

00:19:53It was like, if you have questions about it and you don't, um, and the brethren can't,

00:19:58you know, uh, give you a good answer for it, just put it on the shelf and the Lord will

00:20:02reveal to you later what that really means.

00:20:05And, you know, after reading, uh, uh, Dr. Stephen Hassan's book, you know, the combating

00:20:09cult mind control, that's just thought control.

00:20:13That's all that is, right?

00:20:14It's just suppressing, um, it's suppressing your thoughts, your questions, and it's, it's

00:20:18a form of thought control.

00:20:19So, um, you know, one of the analogies that I would use, um, with, you know, some of my

00:20:25friends who are still in the group was like, you know, if you imagine our church experience

00:20:29as a house and there's a shelf on the wall, I was like, most of the things that I have

00:20:33that are in the house are on the shelf and the shelf is pulling the wall down, right?

00:20:37It's so heavy, it's so full, there's no more room for anything.

00:20:40And the house is just coming, you know, crashing down because there's so many questions.

00:20:43And, um, you know, I remember, uh, at our young adults meetings, um, during camp, they

00:20:50used to have like a question and answer period.

00:20:52And John, it was hilarious.

00:20:54Like the first two were like pretty good.

00:20:56And then the subsequent like camps, we had about two camps a year, uh, maybe three, there

00:21:00was one like specific, uh, young adults camp and then two family camps.

00:21:04Um, every subsequent, uh, question and answer period, the questions got better and fewer

00:21:11and fewer responses were made.

00:21:14And eventually they just canned the whole thing.

00:21:16And I was like, looking like I was angry.

00:21:18Like that made me really angry when I was there, but looking back on it, it's just like, you

00:21:23can't, you just have to laugh about it.

00:21:24It's like, well, they don't really, they can't answer these things because they themselves at

00:21:31this point don't know the answers or they've suppressed themselves to a point where they

00:21:35can't actually do the critical thinking to get to the answer.

00:21:39And it was, yeah, it was really sad.

00:21:40It really comes down to the fact that there is an ideology that is motivated by an agenda.

00:21:46Most people in normal conversation, if they discover that they've said something incorrectly

00:21:51or they believe something incorrectly, they'll open and say, oops, I made a mistake.

00:21:55That's generally how people behave.

00:21:57I understand that there are some personalities that don't really cave that way, but by, by

00:22:03and large, most people are that way.

00:22:05But whenever you get somebody who's in this apostolic authority, well, to maintain that

00:22:10title, you have to be all knowing, which again, it goes back to the fivefold ministry error.

00:22:16It has created such a pyramid scheme of authoritarian control that the people at the top cannot admit

00:22:22when they're wrong.

00:22:23If they do, they shouldn't be at the top in the first place under the structure of the

00:22:26pyramid scheme.

00:22:27So they have to behave this way.

00:22:30And the problem is people underneath this tier can understand it and know it.

00:22:36And where I, where I really have a problem, there are people at the bottom of, if you

00:22:40look at Dr.

00:22:41Stephen Hassan's book, he's got that pyramid of authoritarian control, the central figure

00:22:45at the top.

00:22:45And then you've got, I can't remember how Hassan calls it, but I say basically they're

00:22:50the enforcers.

00:22:51Well, right underneath that, in between there and the rank and file member, there are people

00:22:57who are aware of the issues and aware that the people above them know the issues, but

00:23:03they have to make a conscious decision not to let the common people know.

00:23:08And I'm one of these people that, in Christianity, I believe everybody should be the common people.

00:23:14And if you read the Bible and you understand what it's saying, there is Jesus and then there

00:23:18is everyone else.

00:23:20I don't care if you are an apostle.

00:23:21I don't care if you are a prophet.

00:23:23There's Jesus and everyone else under Christianity's structure.

00:23:26But we have instead tried to glorify these different things.

00:23:31Like, you know, if you can do some special thing that somebody else can't do, if you have

00:23:35a gift, we need to glorify that gift and therefore the person must be superhuman.

00:23:40And I'm of the opinion there are no superhumans.

00:23:43Yeah, I agree completely.

00:23:45And I think that's part of our human nature is that we actually want a law.

00:23:52We want the law.

00:23:53We want something to follow.

00:23:55We want, we, we, law, if there's, if there's some kind of law or structure to follow, that

00:24:02means we don't have to maintain a relationship.

00:24:04And those relationships are exhausting and difficult and tiring and, you know, emotionally

00:24:10draining.

00:24:11And we don't want to engage with that.

00:24:13We just would rather turn our brains off, agree with whoever's preaching, you know, to

00:24:18us and not do the work of actually reading and understanding the Bible.

00:24:21And again, that's part of our journey as Christians and the work of the Holy Spirit is to become

00:24:27sanctified.

00:24:28And, you know, so much of this would be solved if individuals had a respect for the scriptures.

00:24:38I think, you know, um, I was just watching a, uh, another episode of the podcast and you

00:24:46quoted this, um, uh, this verse here, Matthew 16, four, a wicked and adulterous generation

00:24:52looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

00:24:55Then Jesus left them and went away.

00:24:57And so that, um, you know, that verse speaks volumes about, uh, where are we putting our

00:25:07efforts as Christians, right?

00:25:09If the, if the scripture and, and the death and resurrection of Jesus is not enough for

00:25:14you, then nothing will be, nothing will be enough for you.

00:25:17No amount of loaves and fishes will fill you.

00:25:20If you step over the body and blood of Christ and his, like his word that, you know, is it

00:25:27hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of saints have given their lives so that we have access

00:25:32to the scriptures, but you know, people would rather go and see a, um, uh, you know, an apostle

00:25:41or a prophet and have them speak to you specifically and get all excited about what God's going to

00:25:47do for you, but, you know, but step over the, the, the scriptures themselves.

00:25:52I think it's such a waste.

00:25:54And, um, that's essentially what the, the fivefold ministry does is that it says, you know what,

00:26:00it's, it's, it's kind of reestablishing this often quoted, you know, uh, dark age, uh, Catholicism

00:26:11where it was like the priests interpret the Bible and they kind of tell the congregation

00:26:16what they need to know.

00:26:18And, uh, I don't know, I think it was probably true in the message too, but in our group,

00:26:22you know, Catholics were, you know, akin to the devil, right?

00:26:25Like they were just, they had so much wrong, you know, they weren't, you know, like our

00:26:29brothers and sisters, you know, in, in Christ who were, you know, you know, working, you

00:26:34know, workers together, but they were just, you know, they were, uh, they were not, they

00:26:39were, I won't say evil, but they were, they were not, you know, a good group, uh, according

00:26:43to our theology, but, um, you know, it was ironic because we would constantly criticize

00:26:51them for having this approach where, you know, the Bible needed to be interpreted by priests

00:26:56and then that revelation was given, you know, from priests through teaching to the people,

00:27:01but the fivefold ministry set up was the exact same thing.

00:27:04It was the priests, it's, there's a, there was a priest class and they would kind of interpret

00:27:10it and, and all of it would come down to us and, you know, lo and behold, it would all

00:27:14point to, you know, sons and sonship doctrine or the fivefold ministry or, um, you know,

00:27:20the, uh, you know, the structure of the presbytery and, uh, gifts, gifts and ministries and all

00:27:26that kind of stuff.

00:27:26And it would just reinforce that what happened in 1948 was the most important thing that's

00:27:30ever happened.

00:27:31And, um, oh yeah, that's the other thing too, is the, the little British Israelism that

00:27:36was just sprinkled in, uh, this whole time.

00:27:39Yeah.

00:27:40That was such a revelation, man.

00:27:41When I heard about British Israelism from you guys and started looking it up, I was just

00:27:44shocked about that.

00:27:45I was like, wow, that's like literally my dad like preaches on that, like probably one

00:27:51of every 10 messages he talks about that.

00:27:54Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern

00:27:59Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements

00:28:04into the new apostolic reformation?

00:28:07You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:28:14On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

00:28:20Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and

00:28:26digital versions of each book.

00:28:28You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

00:28:34movements.

00:28:35If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute

00:28:40button at the top.

00:28:42And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

00:28:47to or watching.

00:28:48On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:28:53I'm just so fascinated with the fact that your church had no name because they were

00:28:58covering up the past.

00:28:59And yet this past, if you look beyond the movement that you were in, every single movement that

00:29:05has built on top of it looks at your past, the part that they're covering up, as though

00:29:11it is the greatest blessing America has ever had.

00:29:14And we have these rising groups in the United States that they look back to the latter rain

00:29:18as this was whenever the first major outpouring of the Holy Spirit, when the manifested sons of

00:29:24God were coming down, that was being birthed, and now we're going to claim dominion over this place.

00:29:31They all look at that as the epicenter, and yet your group covers up that past.

00:29:35So I'm trying to figure out how on earth did this happen?

00:29:39So I was talking with my dad recently.

00:29:42I was back in North Valford.

00:29:43I was actually back on the grounds just a couple weeks ago.

00:29:47It's always weird to be back, right?

00:29:48But it's also good because it humanizes everybody again, because even me, it's easy for me to

00:29:53just kind of want to separate myself from that in a way to protect myself from it.

00:29:59But to go back and to see everybody, it really humanizes them, and it really softens my heart,

00:30:05which I think is a good thing.

00:30:07But I was talking to him, and I was like, hey, I've got three older brothers.

00:30:12One of them's still in the group, and the other two have left.

00:30:14And so I got my dad and my brothers together, and I just said, hey, by the way, I'm just

00:30:19going to go on this podcast and talk about my experience.

00:30:22And it doesn't mean I don't love you anymore.

00:30:24I don't want you in my life.

00:30:26It's my experience, and I have to talk about it.

00:30:28And my dad said right away, he just started rehearsing what he had been taught, which was

00:30:36like, oh, we were told that lots of people try to tie our group to William Branham, but

00:30:43that's not true.

00:30:44And basically tried to massage this message of like, oh, we weren't actually a part of

00:30:49it at all.

00:30:50But I actually have two copies of two similar books here.

00:30:56So we've got The Move of the Spirit, and then George Warnock's book, The Feast of Tabernacles.

00:31:03And both of them have two very different stories about how the church began.

00:31:07And there's some interesting differences between these two.

00:31:10So in Warnock's book, it talks about how people, and this was revised in 1978.

00:31:17So in the 70s, I guess I shouldn't say.

00:31:22Oh, reprinted March 1978.

00:31:24Okay, I'm good.

00:31:25I'm good.

00:31:25So in this copy, it says that some people followed the ministers that were touring around after

00:31:34the outpouring in 1948.

00:31:36And so we know that that was Branham, right?

00:31:38He was on his Canadian tour.

00:31:40He was trying to whip up support and honestly money, maybe even for Roy Davis, we don't know,

00:31:46in Canada at that time.

00:31:52So they took his name out of it in the 1978 printing, but they still mentioned that people

00:31:57followed this group around Canada, and they said they went to Vancouver.

00:32:02Now, in this printing, which I think is in 2005, it doesn't mention that at all.

00:32:08It doesn't say a thing about the teenagers and the students of the Sharon School's Bible

00:32:15College following anybody after the revival.

00:32:18It just completely removes that.

00:32:20And, you know, I was just like, why do we need to do that?

00:32:24Like, why do we need to edit history?

00:32:27Why do we need a ministry of truth?

00:32:29You know, like if there's, if, you know, I think it's so funny, like a lot of the time

00:32:34that there's been teaching on where our church came from, it's like, there's this amazing

00:32:39outpouring in 1948, and all these things were reestablished, you know, there's this

00:32:44new apostolic age that began, and you can just ignore the middle part.

00:32:49And now we're the only people who still believe it and everything's great.

00:32:52It's like, okay, I think there's probably, you know, a little more that went on there.

00:32:57And, you know, things like, they'll mention things like the Pentecostal, like the PAOC kind

00:33:04of distanced themselves from us.

00:33:05But then they, in 1997, they like gave us an apology.

00:33:09And, you know, so, you know, it's all good news when you're in the group, right?

00:33:13But there's so much more that went on there that I think would, yeah, I think it would

00:33:18be really challenging for any current members to read and understand what was really going

00:33:22on at the time.

00:33:23And the date, the 1978.

00:33:25So the Jonestown Massacre was in November of 1978.

00:33:29But Jonestown Massacre was going explosive through a good part of that year.

00:33:35So it's very telling that there was a revision that come out about the same time that Jonestown

00:33:39is going nuclear down in South America.

00:33:43What's interesting is very much like your church covered up the past, my church covered

00:33:48up all kinds of past for everything from the Klan to who knows what else.

00:33:51But the Jones scenario that played out in this area, they tried to cover it up.

00:33:58I'm told by people who are, I can't give their names or positions, but they're in a

00:34:04position to know, I'll just say it like that, that my grandfather fought to keep the raven

00:34:09out of the library so that people could not read and understand that Jim Jones came to

00:34:15fruition.

00:34:16His people's temple came to fruition because of Branhamism.

00:34:20And I had no idea that my grandfather took over Branham's church, so I had no idea that

00:34:26Jim Jones was even set foot in my grandfather's church.

00:34:29This was shocking to me.

00:34:31And I can almost prove that he actually did step foot.

00:34:36There's one statement that's made that leads me to believe Jones was actually there.

00:34:40But at minimum, the head of that church was going to people's temple and having these

00:34:45private interviews with people.

00:34:47And the way these private interviews worked in the Branham cult ideology, it was basically

00:34:54what the Old Testament would call fortune-telling and stone the ancients for.

00:34:59Because they would go, they would have this private session, oh, tell me how the troubles

00:35:03in my life are going to play out.

00:35:05I'm in this bad scenario, what is going to be the outcome?

00:35:07Well, that's fortune-telling, fortune-telling 101.

00:35:11Well, he was holding private sessions with people who, many of them, I'm certain, would

00:35:15have went to Jonestown and died.

00:35:17So what fortune did he tell them?

00:35:19Did he tell them, don't go?

00:35:21I don't know.

00:35:22But it's odd that all of that's been covered up.

00:35:25And again, that date's just, it's shocking to me.

00:35:28Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:35:30I think the tendrils run deep.

00:35:34You know, I think I never, because we were so intent on disassociating from any kind of

00:35:41denomination, it was really easy for leadership to say, well, that is the Pentecostal's version

00:35:48of what happened, or that is the, you know, that's the Presbyterian, you know, version of

00:35:56events.

00:35:56But it was very easy for them, because we, like, honestly, we had contempt for any other

00:36:01group that was not ours.

00:36:02And that is so unbiblical, to have contempt for fellow Christians.

00:36:06Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, like, that's, but we did, we had contempt, we thought we were

00:36:10better than them.

00:36:11And, you know, my dad tells another story about how he was, he was working in a nursing home,

00:36:21he was a nursing home director in Prince George in British Columbia.

00:36:25And these people came in, and they had basically found the message cult in town, and were all

00:36:32excited about the fact that they had found something that went right back to 1950.

00:36:3648, that had roots in the, you know, the revival.

00:36:39And my dad said, well, like, that's, I'm happy that you found that, but like, our group is

00:36:44actually the true group.

00:36:45And we're the ones that are actually, you know, we've actually like kept everything the

00:36:50way it should be.

00:36:52And, you know, he said that they just, they're just faces just dropped, and they just didn't

00:36:56want to talk about it anymore.

00:36:57And it was, you know, very telling about how divisive this was, and that this, all these

00:37:04groups, they all want to have this, like, they want to have this claim that they are

00:37:11the original, you know, that they're this original, and it's like, man, like, isn't

00:37:15faith in Christ, like, enough?

00:37:17You know, why, why is it not enough that we have faith in Christ Jesus?

00:37:20Like, that should be, you know, salvation and sanctification.

00:37:24Like, that, there's enough work there, people.

00:37:26We don't need to add to that.

00:37:27Like, sanctification will take you the rest of your life.

00:37:30And, you know, the Holy Spirit will do a perfect work.

00:37:32You don't need anything else other than that.

00:37:34You don't need apostles and prophets.

00:37:35You don't need, like you said, divination.

00:37:38That's exactly what it was.

00:37:40And when we had hands laid on us by the presbytery, which is just a group of elders, they would,

00:37:46I mean, it was close to fortune telling.

00:37:49It was close, you know?

00:37:50It was kind of like, you're going to do this and that and the other thing, and you're going

00:37:54to, you know, you have a gift of, I'm still not sure if it was, you know, how harmful or

00:38:01harmless it was, but they would say things like, you know, you're going to host a lot of

00:38:04people.

00:38:04You're going to have a gift of, you know, ministering in this area or music or whatever.

00:38:08But yeah, even so, like it was, yeah, it was divination.

00:38:15It was trying to find out what was going to happen and try to give you some certainty about

00:38:19the future to, you know, reassure your fears.

00:38:22And it's like, brothers and sisters, like that is not how a faith in Christ works.

00:38:29We do not have faith in Christ because he tells us what's going to happen.

00:38:33You know, we have faith in Christ because we have salvation and he is God and he is good.

00:38:39And that's it.

00:38:40That's all we need.

00:38:42And like, it's, I don't know, it's, it's really freeing.

00:38:46It's, it is really that simple.

00:38:48It is.

00:38:48And you know, whenever I talk to people who experienced many of the same things I did,

00:38:53it's funny because they talk about how they're processing it and they're going through the

00:38:56information and they're coming to realizations.

00:39:00Well, when I talk to people who put me back in the state of mind that I had, it actually

00:39:05helps me to process.

00:39:06And one of the things that actually I'm just processing now, you mentioned how your, was

00:39:12it your father was talking about how we were the true church.

00:39:15They're the false ones, right?

00:39:17That was a concept that it really stemmed from the way that the Laterine movement was

00:39:22structured.

00:39:23You had the true church and we're it, if you're in the movement, if you're in the

00:39:27denominations, you're not.

00:39:28That's why they, they want to be non-denominational.

00:39:32They actually want to have no name.

00:39:33So all of that's interesting to me, but that idea of the true church, we're the right ones.

00:39:39Everyone else is the wrong ones.

00:39:41Where this ends up is I get all, all these comments and sometimes emails talking about,

00:39:48well, if we're in the wrong, if we're in the wrong church, meaning we're in this cult,

00:39:52which one is the right one?

00:39:54You've got the Baptist, the Methodist, all of these other denominations.

00:39:58And they usually come off with the comment, all of these denominations think they're the

00:40:02true church.

00:40:03Which one do I go to?

00:40:05And that is a, it's an indoctrinated false statement.

00:40:09That's not how churches work.

00:40:12There are people who have, who, if you're in a mainstream church, and I've actually been

00:40:16to different ones.

00:40:17I've been purposefully went to different flavors of Christianity to understand how they think

00:40:23and why.

00:40:24And if you go to the Methodist church, it isn't that they say we're the true church and the

00:40:29Baptists aren't.

00:40:30It's that they have an intention and an ideology.

00:40:34The Methodists like to help people who are struggling.

00:40:38And they will run donation drives for some child to sponsor some child who's in a state

00:40:45home, for example.

00:40:46I actually participated in one of these drives.

00:40:49It's the Methodists.

00:40:50They like the methods.

00:40:51That's how they are.

00:40:52But they don't say that if you do this and join our church, we're the one true church

00:40:56and everyone else's faults.

00:40:58It is only the cults that do this.

00:41:01So if you've been programmed with this mentality, you've been falsely taught what other churches

00:41:06believe, number one, but number two, you're in this us versus them mentality that you can

00:41:11never associate with the outside as though they're Christian brothers and sisters.

00:41:15Absolutely.

00:41:16It turns the, it turns the, it puts the ax back in our saved by grace, right?

00:41:23It's like, oh, you need to act a certain way.

00:41:25You need to have these certain rituals and practices or else you're going to miss out on

00:41:30what God is doing in this particular group.

00:41:32And you're right.

00:41:33That's only, it's only someone who has had, you know, behavior control and, and thought

00:41:39control and information control, um, would believe that every church claims that they

00:41:44are the one and true church.

00:41:45And that's the only reason people attend that church is because they believe they're, they're

00:41:48a one and true church.

00:41:49Um, I was chatting with somebody on an airplane as you do, and it turned out he was a, uh,

00:41:55a youth minister for an Eritrean church here in Winnipeg.

00:41:59And he reminded me of this verse, uh, Philippians 1, 15 to 18.

00:42:05Um, it is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.

00:42:09The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.

00:42:14The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely supposing that they can stir

00:42:20up trouble for me while I am in change.

00:42:22Uh, verse 18, but what does it matter?

00:42:26The important thing is that either way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.

00:42:31And because of this, I rejoice.

00:42:34And I think that's like so beautiful that, um, Paul is like, I actually don't care whether

00:42:42you follow everything that I say exactly.

00:42:45Let's just make sure that it's Christ's death and resurrection and his divinity that's being

00:42:49preached.

00:42:50And that gives me a lot of comfort in this that like, um, cause I, I struggle right now

00:42:55with my current church, like knowing how much to engage with it.

00:42:59And like, I see things that are wrong.

00:43:00And, you know, even a couple of months ago, our, uh, our pastor became like pretty obsessed

00:43:06with the idea of revival and talked about the Azusa street revival and how like, there's

00:43:12this, uh, there's this golden thread between, um, the Azusa street revival and Winnipeg.

00:43:17Cause of course we have the Calvary temple here.

00:43:19And so he's like, oh, we have a great history of revival in this, you know, province and

00:43:23in this city.

00:43:24And he was trying to, you know, whip us up into revival.

00:43:27And that, like, that really set me for a loop because I was like, am I ever going to

00:43:31escape this?

00:43:32You know, like, am I just like destined to like, yeah.

00:43:34Cause I wasn't looking for that at all when I found this, I found this church for, you

00:43:38know, my wife and my family, but, um, it's so pervasive, this idea everywhere.

00:43:43And I think, you know, that verse in Philippians just really gives me a lot of peace where

00:43:47it's like, you know what, there's going to be a lot of things that are wrong with every

00:43:51church.

00:43:51And let's just like, make sure that it's Christ crucified that is being preached.

00:43:56And I don't know, I think that's kind of the superpower of, of Christianity is that it's

00:44:01like, we actually don't have a lot of like open, like battles with, with each other.

00:44:08You know, it's like, yeah, we can disagree on a bunch of stuff, but there's actually

00:44:11something that there's the, the core theology is what we actually, um, agree on.

00:44:15And that actually allows us to, you know, that allows Christ's message in the Bible to

00:44:21be, um, you know, to, to last throughout history, right.

00:44:27And far into the future, God willing.

00:44:28Whenever I was teaching my oldest son how to walk, there was this thought that happened.

00:44:34I, oh my gosh, I can't let him fall.

00:44:35He's going to hurt himself.

00:44:36And you walk up and you try, you try to stabilize them, right?

00:44:40The problem is they're not learning from their experience.

00:44:43And so when you walk away, they're going to fall because they don't know what the fall

00:44:47feels like.

00:44:48And by the time my third son came about, we're like, ah, let him go.

00:44:52He'll figure it out.

00:44:53And he did.

00:44:54He figured it out in the same way the oldest one did.

00:44:57You have to learn through some of your experiences.

00:44:59And similar to what you just said, when the first church that we went to after the cult,

00:45:06we're in a divine healing cult.

00:45:08God heals those who, who pray in his name.

00:45:12And if you have sin in your life, then God punishes you with sickness.

00:45:16That's kind of the premise for our, our cult religion.

00:45:19So I go to this new church and they have this, for lack of a better way to call it, it was

00:45:25basically a divine healing mental health center.

00:45:27And they were saying things like, the reason why you have mental health issues is because

00:45:32you have sin in your life.

00:45:33Come to us as your pastoral authority, we'll rid you of the sin and we can cure your mental

00:45:38health issues without medication.

00:45:41Me, who has studied medication, mental health, has mental health issues in the family, I'm

00:45:47sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, this is awful.

00:45:51This is like that close from the cult that we left.

00:45:54And I could not stay in that church very long.

00:45:57It was a grave error.

00:45:58It was awful.

00:45:59But the more churches that I tried after this, maybe not to that extreme, but there would

00:46:05be something else that I knew that they were doing that just totally matched the cult that

00:46:10I came from.

00:46:11And it got to the point, it was like my third child.

00:46:14You know, I can't stop this.

00:46:16Even if I were to say something to them, they're going to try it anyway.

00:46:20It has to fail.

00:46:21They all have to learn from that experience.

00:46:23And that's the difference between a normal non-cult church and the cult church.

00:46:29churches because they learn from the experiences and they improve and they grow and they become

00:46:35better for it.

00:46:36In the cult churches, they have these guardrails around it.

00:46:38They're like me holding a kid.

00:46:40You can never fall.

00:46:42And the problem is the people holding them in power, they themselves haven't learned either.

00:46:46So they don't really know how to walk is the problem.

00:46:49And now I'm at the point where when I see something, I'm in a church and I see them doing something

00:46:56or they say something that is just cult 101 to me.

00:47:00I just say, you know, they'll figure it out.

00:47:02Let it go.

00:47:04Not everybody can do that depending on where you are in your journey out of these.

00:47:07Yeah, no, that's really sage advice.

00:47:09I think it's because what's the alternative to not participate in Ecclesia, right?

00:47:14To not be in a body, to not have.

00:47:17So, and that's the thing is it's, it's been tough because I've had to, oh, when, when you

00:47:25leave a high control situation, you mourn the fact that you cannot trust your instincts.

00:47:34Like that sucked.

00:47:35I was like, oh, I can't trust my instincts anymore.

00:47:38Like, because my instincts told me to stay for so many years.

00:47:42And like, I, I don't know about you, but like as a, as a young man, I was dating and breaking

00:47:48up with girls constantly and just being, being a emotional bull in a China shop, right?

00:47:53Like I would go on these dates and, and be dating somebody for, you know, nine, 10 months.

00:47:59And then it would kind of, it would kind of dawn on me that they were never going to accept,

00:48:03you know, the cult beliefs and the cult standards.

00:48:06So I just had to, you know, break up with them.

00:48:09And I did this over and over and over again.

00:48:11And it was so, it was so hard on me and it was definitely hard on them.

00:48:15But it was, it was my intuition was telling me that there was no chance that they were ever

00:48:22going to accept this.

00:48:24And so then I had to look for somebody in the group and I was not attracted to anybody

00:48:29in the group at all.

00:48:32And, and I was like, oh man, like, this is going to be rough.

00:48:35I'm going to have to like suppress my own, like natural, like, you know, God given desires

00:48:41to find someone attractive.

00:48:43And I was going to have to kind of just kind of deal with it because otherwise I would just

00:48:48be alone forever.

00:48:49Um, and the, uh, when I stopped doing that, when I was like, okay, let's just take another

00:48:57look at, at what's going on here.

00:48:58And I left, I had to adjust, you know, my expectations.

00:49:02I was like, okay, I can't just trust my feelings on things because my feelings are, they're real,

00:49:08but they are also, they've been crafted, right?

00:49:11Like they have been, um, they've been messed with, they've been, uh, controlled.

00:49:17So yeah, that was really hard on me.

00:49:20And like a lot of people have a really hard time.

00:49:23So then you get yourself into this position of like, okay, like I can't trust my intuition.

00:49:28So I can't relax.

00:49:30I can't relax anywhere.

00:49:31And I have to be critical of everything all the time.

00:49:34And I have to, um, constantly be extremely vigilant.

00:49:38Right.

00:49:39And that makes for a really stressful worship service.

00:49:41You know, if you're like just on the edge and just like analyzing, it's like, oh no,

00:49:46another Hillsong song.

00:49:48No, it's so, it's so heretical, you know, like you have to just be like, no, it's okay.

00:49:53Like just, um, everyone is going to fall down and they're going to figure it out.

00:49:57And I think that mechanism that you talked about, how it's like the, the, there is no

00:50:03thinking being done in these high control groups.

00:50:05There's a pattern and that pattern is being just kind of like relaying and redrawn every

00:50:11single time.

00:50:12Whereas in a free thinking group, yeah, they're going to make mistakes and they're going to

00:50:16pick it up and they're going to try something else.

00:50:18And so when you're, for me, that's how I kind of just was like, I'm just going to relax.

00:50:24I'm going to let them stub their toes on this stuff that I know is like, it's garbage for

00:50:30me.

00:50:30It doesn't mean I need to engage with it.

00:50:33You know, there's still lots of other things to do.

00:50:34Like there's still food drives and, and community groups and stuff that I can get involved with

00:50:39at church and, and music.

00:50:41I'm on the worship team there.

00:50:42So it's like, I'm happy to engage with that.

00:50:44Um, and it doesn't have to be perfect for me to engage with it.

00:50:48Yeah, exactly.

00:50:48It goes back to what I said earlier about the trust.

00:50:51If you trust God to lead, then it's a different God than the one that you can't trust to lead

00:50:56you.

00:50:56And I've came to the conclusion, if that's the case, if this is a God that I can't trust, do

00:51:01I even want to serve that God in the first place?

00:51:03And why am I having to serve a different God than the one that's described in the Bible?

00:51:07That was, that was my logical thought process as I'm coming out of this.

00:51:11But one thing that you, you were talking about dating, and I'm going to be very, very cautious

00:51:17about this.

00:51:18I don't, I don't go here for obvious reasons, but one of the things that, and it ties back

00:51:24to the trust, one of the things that happens in these groups, and because I have to be so

00:51:30cautious, I'm going to instead talk about what others have told me as they escaped.

00:51:35One guy escaped, and he said dating was just a nightmare.

00:51:38He said, it's like all the women in these groups just let themselves go.

00:51:42And interpreted, what that means is, the women are in a group, a high-controlled group, where

00:51:49they are so constricted and restrained that they just literally give up.

00:51:56And they're also, depending on which group you're in, some of them are in groups where

00:52:00it is, you know, the end of the world is coming soon.

00:52:04You have one job, that's to bear the children before you leave, and then the world is going

00:52:08to end, well, you don't care.

00:52:11Why do I need to fix myself up?

00:52:13And then add to this the complexities of the Pentecostal Foundation, where women are evil

00:52:20if they do fix themselves up.

00:52:22And so there's this fine line that you walk between, well, I want to be pretty, but if

00:52:28I do, I'm a sinner, and I'm going to hell, and I can't be pretty, and God gave me my beauty

00:52:34as it is.

00:52:34Well, if you've ever seen what somebody looks like when they just wake up, that God-given

00:52:39beauty needs to be fixed up a little bit, or they look scary, right?

00:52:43So there's this fine line that you have to walk between all of this.

00:52:47And I'm being very, very cautious here, because the men have the same issues, right?

00:52:50But there is a tendency in these groups, because you're so burdened down with all of the pressures

00:52:57that they give you in these high-control groups, people just give up.

00:53:02And what it does is the pool of people to select from, well, I'm a male, I want somebody who's

00:53:09at least trying a little bit to fix themselves up, right?

00:53:12So that mentality is what I'm told, for multiple people, both male and female, this happens.

00:53:18And then what happens that's interesting is you find some people who go outside of the

00:53:23group to try to find their mate.

00:53:25And then the mate comes in contact with a group and like, heck, no, I'm not going to

00:53:30join a cult.

00:53:31Are you crazy?

00:53:33Yeah.

00:53:33And so there's that that goes on.

00:53:36It's another podcast for another day, but dating has its own sets of challenges within

00:53:41the group.

00:53:42And when you leave it, you're like, why on earth did I put myself through all of that?

00:53:47Yeah, it is.

00:53:49It could be its own completely own podcast, but it was what I ended up having to do was

00:53:54just, I was just two different people, right?

00:53:57And then if I wanted to have a genuine relationship with anybody, I couldn't keep doing that.

00:54:01So then those, those two worlds collided and then they were, yeah, they were incompatible.

00:54:08And so then, I don't know, the result for me was a lot of depression, right?

00:54:12It was like, oh, like I, I have, I have all these skills and I can use them outside of

00:54:17the group, but I know my true identity or every time I got, you know, went to a camp

00:54:22meeting or went to church on Sunday, you know, they were reinforcing that your true identity

00:54:27is a member of this group and know what happened, what's happening out there isn't true.

00:54:30It isn't you.

00:54:32So I was essentially split in half and I'm still stitching the pieces of myself back together.

00:54:37And I don't think I'll ever be done doing that.

00:54:39Um, that's just the reality of, of kind of like mental trauma and the trauma of, of control

00:54:46is that you are, yep.

00:54:48Every once in a while I stumble onto a part of myself that was like, oh man, I like really

00:54:51forgot about that part of my life.

00:54:53I really forgot about that happening and, and, and this, and I was like, wow, I should

00:54:57probably, you know, spend some time reintegrating that part, that part of me.

00:55:01But yeah, it's, uh, I'm, oh, I'm so happy.

00:55:05I don't have to date anymore.

00:55:06Yeah.

00:55:09Yeah.

00:55:09Oh man.

00:55:10But yeah, I, um, uh, the, the way I got out is, uh, unless you had something else you wanted

00:55:17to tag onto that.

00:55:19No, go for it.

00:55:20Sure.

00:55:20So I, um, I was going to, um, my church in, in Saskatoon called the church in Saskatoon

00:55:27cause we didn't want to have any names.

00:55:29Um, and, uh, it was, uh, and, uh, all of my, like my male friends, they had kind of

00:55:37either left the church and gotten married or had just kind of moved away and moved on

00:55:40with their life.

00:55:41So I was pretty alone in my little church.

00:55:43There's probably about 40 people.

00:55:45Um, and I was like, you know what?

00:55:48I need Christian friends.

00:55:49I don't care that the brethren are discouraging us from going to other groups.

00:55:53I am just going to go to a church and I'm going to go to their young adults group because

00:55:57I need friends.

00:55:58Like, that's a basic thing, you know, like the scriptures are pretty clear about, you

00:56:03know, the benefits of friendship and how, um, you can, you know, it's biblical to have

00:56:07good friends.

00:56:08So, um, I had friends like from work and stuff that weren't Christian, but I would, um, I

00:56:14was like, I got to take a chance.

00:56:15So, uh, there was a, uh, uh, Pentecostal assemblies of, uh, Pentecostals assemblies of Canada.

00:56:22So PAOC, uh, church that was kind of the de facto young adults group for many small churches

00:56:29in Saskatoon, like Saskatoon is only 300,000 people.

00:56:32So, and it's really just a really big, small town.

00:56:35Like there's lots of, um, uh, little churches and little towns around it, but this church,

00:56:40I think had a, uh, uh, you know, a Sunday service of around 800 people, but their young

00:56:46adults group was 400 people.

00:56:49And most of the people there didn't go to that church on Sunday, but they were kind of in

00:56:53the same position as me.

00:56:54There was maybe three or four young adults in their church.

00:56:56And instead of trying to put on a young adults meeting at their small little assemblies, they

00:57:02would just come to Elam, uh, Elam, Elam church in Saskatoon.

00:57:06Um, and so even then I had no idea that Elam church in Saskatoon had anything to do with

00:57:12my group, which is just so funny, like thinking about it in the past, they'd never escape.

00:57:17Um, but I went there and they had, they had good, um, they had good leadership and good

00:57:22teaching.

00:57:22And I would consider them to be pretty reformed.

00:57:25Um, but they, uh, they had a podcast and they had this lady come on her, their podcast

00:57:32and she talked about the group that she was a part of.

00:57:34And they had, you know, they had to wear long skirts and they had to wear doilies on their

00:57:39heads when they were in, in the meeting.

00:57:41And they, and she started saying all these things that I was like, boy, that sounds a

00:57:44lot like my group.

00:57:45Um, and so I talked to her about it and she was from a message group in Saskatoon and they

00:57:52were listening to William Branham and they had their own, um, I don't know what he called

00:57:57himself.

00:57:58He was definitely their leader.

00:57:59Um, but he, like, I don't know, probably, probably claimed he was a prophet or something,

00:58:06but he was, he was a high control, um, you know, cult leader right in little old Saskatoon

00:58:12listening to the message every single Sunday.

00:58:14Um, and they, uh, yeah, they, she, her uncle actually paid somebody, they, they convinced

00:58:23her to go on a trip and they cornered her in a hotel cause she wasn't supposed to be

00:58:27going on trips with her family.

00:58:28Right.

00:58:28So they took her out of town, they convinced her to stay for four days.

00:58:32And the first two or three days of that, there was a, um, like a professional, like cult

00:58:39rescue person, like, like a, there was a professional intervention interventionist, um, who sat down

00:58:45with her and basically kind of went over all of these things that the message taught and

00:58:50basically kind of broke her out of that.

00:58:52And so, you know, she was living in like a group home with like three or four other,

00:58:57um, girls that were all part of the, the, the message cult.

00:59:03And, uh, it was super high control, right?

00:59:05Like every single hour of every single day was, uh, scheduled.

00:59:10And, uh, all the weekends, there was always the leader.

00:59:13He had this farm and he would get them to all go do like manual labor on the farm, like

00:59:18every Saturday and, and then Sunday after church and stuff.

00:59:21So they were just dog tired all the time, right.

00:59:24Which really opens your, opens you up for control, you know, behavior control, emotional control,

00:59:29so on and so forth.

00:59:30Um, and yeah, so she broke out of that because her uncle had left previously and they got

00:59:37his wife and kids out and then was, um, starting to try to pull other members of his family

00:59:42out.

00:59:43So she went on this podcast and talked about this and I ended up chatting with her and

00:59:47I got in touch with her uncle and he sat me down and kind of walked through all this

00:59:51stuff.

00:59:51And it wasn't an exact one-to-one, you know, um, it didn't really speak to me super, you

00:59:58know, relevantly because I, I didn't grow up in a message group, right.

01:00:01I grew up in the, like in the latter rain, uh, North Battleford group.

01:00:05So I, but I still knew that there was something going on there.

01:00:10Like he was still speaking to all these things, you know, um, the fivefold ministry and prophecy

01:00:15and all this kind of stuff that were, he was kind of hitting on all these topics that to

01:00:19me were sacred, right.

01:00:20And that were not to be questioned, but he was bringing up a lot of good points, like

01:00:24a lot of good points.

01:00:25And, uh, he, he was the first guy that kind of put me on the path of reading books like

01:00:30twisted scripture and combating cult mind control.

01:00:33So I ate those up and boy, the second that I opened up, um, freedom of mind.org or freedom

01:00:39of mind.com.

01:00:40I can't remember what the URL is, but I just went through the bite model and I was just

01:00:44like, wow, it's just, everything's there.

01:00:47Like just multiple points in every single category and it just blew my mind.

01:00:52And then, you know, I went back to Elam and like, at this point in time, I was just not

01:00:57attending the Saskatoon assembly.

01:01:00Cause I was just like, every time, every Sunday morning, I would just get so depressed and I

01:01:05just want to lay in bed because my body and my soul knew that I was going there was actually

01:01:11hurting me.

01:01:12And so my body protected itself.

01:01:15It said, you're not going to go.

01:01:16So every Sunday morning I felt sick every Sunday morning, I stayed in bed till noon.

01:01:21And so, but Tuesday nights, right.

01:01:23I would go to young adults at this church and there was actual preaching and a worship service.

01:01:27And so I still felt like I was being spiritually fed.

01:01:30Um, and, uh, then when this information came to light, I was just, you know, I was just aghast.

01:01:36And I remember, I remember the day I was telling my, my community group, I was like, I think

01:01:42I grew up in a cult, you know, and, uh, you know, they were like, what do you mean by that?

01:01:49And I was like, I don't really know, but I, you know, I'm starting to read these books and

01:01:53there's these things coming out and like, I'm terrified of what's going to happen if

01:01:57I admit this, you know, and like, what is, what's my family relationship going to be

01:02:03like?

01:02:03And, you know, all these things are changing because it had really been my whole life up

01:02:07until that point.

01:02:09Um, but I, I'm so thankful to God that there was somebody who was willing to talk about

01:02:15it at that young adults group.

01:02:16And like, I was 27 and I think she was like 25 or 26 at the time.

01:02:20So it's like, not, not like still pretty young, like still pretty young people going out of

01:02:26their way to tell their story, which I was really thankful for.

01:02:29So, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was, I think it was perfect that it was a message group because

01:02:36there were so many things that were similar.

01:02:38And the more I read on your website and the more history I, I, I read about and uncover,

01:02:45it's like, Oh man, like these groups are so closely tied, so closely tied together.

01:02:50It's like one big cookie cutter stamp that stamp.

01:02:53I've got a cult stamp.

01:02:54I've got another cult.

01:02:56I mean, really, that's, that's how it feels.

01:02:58They changed the doctrines.

01:02:59And so what happens is if you're in one of the cults, you compare the doctrines and you

01:03:03say, well, I'm not in a cult.

01:03:04I'm different than them.

01:03:05I have a different doctrine, but the same mechanisms for control exist.

01:03:09And that's why they, they, from, from the core foundation, it is very much the same,

01:03:14but thank you so much for doing this.

01:03:16This, this is quite a journey.

01:03:17I'm, I'm sure you've got a thousand more things that you could go through as similarities,

01:03:21but in the end, it's, it's the same cult.

01:03:25It just has a different, well, I was going to say it has a different name, but it had

01:03:28no name.

01:03:29It's the same cult, but it had no name.

01:03:33The cheaper store brand, right?

01:03:35The cheaper store brand.

01:03:36Thank you so much for doing this.

01:03:38Yeah.

01:03:38Thanks for having me, John.

01:03:39It was a real pleasure.

01:03:40And yeah, I appreciate your work that you do and yeah, anything else I can do to help

01:03:44out?

01:03:44Just let me know just an email or a phone call away.

01:03:47Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us

01:03:50out on the web.

01:03:51You can find us at william-branham.org.

01:03:53For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read weaponized religion

01:03:58from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:04:10For more information, you can find us at william-branham.com.

01:04:40For more information, visit www.fema.org.

01:05:10For more information, visit www.fema.org.

01:05:12For more information, visit www.fema.org.

Escape From the Cult With No Name: Global Missions | Matt Hannigan | Episode 456

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