- 11 hours ago
Angela Bassett, Claire Foy, Maggie Gyllenhaal, and Sandra Oh also star on the Drama Actress Roundtable.
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00:00:00Hi, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter.
00:00:10I'm Lacey Rose, and I'm joined today by Claire Foy, Sandra Oh, Tandy Newton, Maggie Gyllenhaal,
00:00:16Elizabeth Moss, and Angela Bassett.
00:00:18Thank you guys all for being here.
00:00:20So, I'm going to start with you, Sandra.
00:00:22The what?
00:00:23Hey.
00:00:25This is such an honor to be at this table.
00:00:27Sorry, I just had to say that.
00:00:28You're also absolutely extraordinary.
00:00:29Hooray.
00:00:30It's such an honor.
00:00:31So, for years, it was every pilot season, we would hear Sandra's getting offers, Sandra's
00:00:37getting offers, Sandra's not doing projects.
00:00:39How do you decide what a no is, and how did, when this came along, you decided, okay, I'm
00:00:45ready?
00:00:46I think it takes a while to eventually get to a point in your career where you can actually
00:00:50make a choice, and after a decade of my life on a show, I had enough economic power to be
00:00:57able to say no.
00:00:57You know, those four years were really, I said this before, it was like active waiting.
00:01:05I was not working on really here to be able to figure out what the right thing is and what
00:01:12it is to say no and what it is to say yes.
00:01:15So, that time was active to be able to feel the right, it's like falling in love.
00:01:24It's like, okay, now what I realize, I have a little bit more awareness, a little more
00:01:28consciousness.
00:01:29I want this out of a relationship, and I'm just going to wait until they show up, because
00:01:35I feel like they'll show up.
00:01:36And I think that's what it was for me.
00:01:38And so, when Killing Eve came by, it was not only the script, it was Phoebe Waller-Bridge
00:01:43herself.
00:01:44You know, there's a lot of circumstances around it that were, I had to make a lot of
00:01:49shifts in my mind, because it's shot in the UK.
00:01:51But it was the character and Phoebe's voice that I thought, this is the right thing for
00:01:58me.
00:01:59This feels right to say yes to.
00:02:03For the rest of you, the ability to say no, the confidence to say no, when in your careers
00:02:08did you find it?
00:02:10And what are the sort of easy no's for you guys?
00:02:14Well, for a start, it's how a character is described in a script.
00:02:17I, for years, would be called up and said, Tandy, they want to go exotic with the role,
00:02:24so get excited, you know, or they want to go ethnic with the role.
00:02:27And even just that would, I would just have to brace myself, because it was so deeply offensive,
00:02:33but I wanted to work.
00:02:35And then I would read the script, and I would transform it out of this bizarre objectification,
00:02:42and I would think, how can I help this?
00:02:44How can I help, you know, make this more progressive?
00:02:49And I would spend a lot of my time, and I won't name projects specifically, trying to
00:02:56give more dimension to these characters, these women's roles.
00:03:00And oftentimes, they, well, they would always be written by men.
00:03:04And I would find myself desperately trying to stop these characters from being demonized,
00:03:13because I was, you know, and that happens with, you know, you don't have enough lines,
00:03:19you don't have enough screen time to actually try and humanize these characters,
00:03:23because I am drawn to, I am actually drawn to characters that do things which seem terrible
00:03:30or seem unkind.
00:03:33And I, because I want to find out, why has this poor human being done what they've done?
00:03:37Because for me, that's, that's the conversation, is what has, what has created the situation
00:03:43out of which a person can leave their children, or, and that's pain.
00:03:48And that's the place that I live in when it comes to a role.
00:03:51Well, I'm sorry, I'm going beyond your, the question.
00:03:53No, but it's fascinating.
00:03:53I apologize.
00:03:55Well, it really is.
00:03:56And so to start off, I think we have to be, and I found I've had to be, I've had to rise
00:04:02above the initial hurt that I feel that a man has written a role that is objectifying this
00:04:08person straight away, whether it's their ethnicity, she turns up, she's beautiful, she's, she's,
00:04:14she's, she's, she's sexy without, without giving too much away.
00:04:18She's, she's, and it's just, I mean, even look, I'm sorry, you turn up at a photo shoot,
00:04:25let's say, and it'll say, you know, the, the idea behind this shoot is strong, powerful,
00:04:32sexy.
00:04:33As soon as I read sexy, I'm like, really?
00:04:35Do we have to be sexy in order to be powerful?
00:04:38What's that about?
00:04:39And no, they don't mean it when they write sexy.
00:04:41They mean strong because sexy, but let's start looking at the way things are described and
00:04:46let's take out the incredibly offensive and, and, you know, they have ramifications.
00:04:54You know, I have daughters.
00:04:56I don't want her thinking that you have to be sexy to be powerful.
00:04:59What does that mean?
00:05:01So yeah, it's, it's tough.
00:05:03It's tough.
00:05:03But I think that the way things have changed and this excites me so much is to actually
00:05:07start writing, you know, so that I'm not going to put out a request on casting that says
00:05:14she's sexy, but interesting.
00:05:16And she doesn't, she doesn't really come forward.
00:05:19And yet she's really, you know, just like this nonsense woman's role.
00:05:23And, you know, and also she's, she's ethnic is so offensive, man, please stop doing.
00:05:29Um, so yeah, it's about rather than sort of getting swallowed up with misery, which I've
00:05:36been there, um, and thinking you can't change.
00:05:39It's suddenly, as Sandra was saying, you suddenly have this power, whether it's economic or actually
00:05:42just people listen to you, people love you, girls write in and say, I'm so inspired by
00:05:47you.
00:05:48And it's thinking, suddenly realizing I'm going to take hold of this pen myself and I'm
00:05:53going to try and, you know, try and reckon, you know, try and, and, and change things
00:05:59as opposed to getting angry.
00:06:01Yeah.
00:06:02Yeah.
00:06:02I think a few of you laugh.
00:06:03I mean, a few of you laugh, which, which suggests that either you've been there or something
00:06:08else.
00:06:09I've worked with, um, a lot of men.
00:06:12Of course there are.
00:06:13But, but no, but, but that are, that are actually, um, interested in and curious about
00:06:20women, even if, of course, I think it is impossible for a man to entirely understand a feminine
00:06:30experience.
00:06:32I think that there are men who are interested in exploring it with you and in correcting
00:06:39it.
00:06:40If you're like, no, it's actually more like this.
00:06:42It's scary though.
00:06:43To, to be the one to say, hang on a sec guys.
00:06:46Can, can we try this?
00:06:47Cause there's always so much going on.
00:06:49It's always, there's always a hundred things that they've got to do, which are more important.
00:06:53So it's trying to find that moment to do it, trying to find the person.
00:06:57I think, I think my show is actually about this, like, um, sex as a way into having an
00:07:03actually interesting conversation, which I find actually in my, when I look back with
00:07:08a little objectivity on like the work I've done in my life, I don't think I was conscious
00:07:12of this, but I do think sex and like sex scenes and sexuality has been like a way, um, to get
00:07:22people's attention and then go, okay, are you listening now?
00:07:27Here's what I actually really want to talk about, which that's what was available to me.
00:07:32So that's what I used.
00:07:34And, and I was, I'm really interested in sex like everybody else is in the world, you
00:07:38know, and I'm interested in sex scenes and, but in my show, like my character has access
00:07:44to filmmaking, but only, only in, only in porn, you know, and only, you know, with her body.
00:07:53That's how she can get in and start having the conversation where she's like, what does
00:07:56that light do, you know, while she's got her clothes off?
00:08:00But I don't know.
00:08:01I kind of relate to that even as an actress.
00:08:04Is it based on any kind of true experience, the character?
00:08:08My character is, I think, based on like a, a, a, a, a, you know, combination of people.
00:08:13And there, there were people who were filmmakers and actresses in porn at the time, which is,
00:08:18you know, who she is.
00:08:19But I just think in like my experience, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I, I feel
00:08:23like sex and sexuality for actresses, because you're right, I think it, it has felt like
00:08:29a prerequisite, you know, that yes, you can be smart and powerful and all these things,
00:08:34but you do also have to like throw a little sexiness in there.
00:08:37I don't know if that's going to stay that way, but it has certainly been that way for
00:08:40most of my career.
00:08:41I think when you're in control, when you're, when you're empowered to be able to dial in,
00:08:45you know, up and down, however much sexiness you want to use.
00:08:48But what, what really worries me is when you're a young person and you come into this industry
00:08:55and you are encouraged to use your sexuality and you haven't made, and you haven't made
00:08:59decisions.
00:08:59But aren't we, aren't we, haven't we?
00:09:00Isn't that, I mean, hasn't that been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I've not been asked
00:09:04to use my sexuality in my, yeah, in my career.
00:09:08But even just as like a black woman, no, not seen as, you know, it's a particular, a particular
00:09:14look and a vibe and image, you know, and very rarely, no, it has not been a majority
00:09:21of that.
00:09:21No, I gotta tell you, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll echo Angela's experience.
00:09:25I will say for me, I don't think I've ever gotten any job based on, right, as fabulous
00:09:34as it is.
00:09:35Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but it just, but I always knew.
00:09:37That's why it was so beautiful the first season of Grey's Anatomy to see that image
00:09:41because it's never across the board, the landscape of cinema, not the one they're checking for,
00:09:48for sexuality.
00:09:50And that's also, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, but it's also complicated in lots
00:09:55of ways because if you are the actress who does not, uh, the person who does not necessarily,
00:10:03that's not at the forefront of your toolbox that you, that you get your work, you know
00:10:08me, we're all dealing with it either on a hundred percent, like you're using it, or
00:10:12on a five percent that you're using it.
00:10:14And there's a, a lot of different feelings that we have when people are not interested
00:10:19in your percentage of it.
00:10:20Sure.
00:10:21Right?
00:10:22And so, so that, that's for me, I've, I've realized in, in a lot of this awakening where
00:10:29a lot of times where I have felt left out, let's say, ignored, not seen or whatever.
00:10:34But I think that I have been protected.
00:10:38How?
00:10:39You know, protected because, because those, um, people don't see you that way.
00:10:45Yeah, but, but, but those, but it's not so much that it's, it's the compromises.
00:10:48I have not necessarily been in the situations where I've had to compromise in those ways,
00:10:54other ways I've had, but the, I feel like my ability to continue the integrity of my
00:11:00work has not, I don't think been as a weighted as I think a lot of other actresses that I
00:11:06know and that I hear.
00:11:07As what?
00:11:08What was the word you used?
00:11:09Weighted.
00:11:10Weighted.
00:11:11Do you know what I mean?
00:11:12Yeah.
00:11:13I don't come in, there's a different type of weight when you are not seen.
00:11:14Yeah.
00:11:15And you are not seen that way.
00:11:16Yeah.
00:11:17And you are not given power that way.
00:11:18Yeah.
00:11:19Right?
00:11:20Because it is power.
00:11:21Yeah.
00:11:22And what I mean at large is, is that we don't even need to, we don't even want that from
00:11:25you.
00:11:26You know what I mean?
00:11:27There's something.
00:11:29There's something in that because also later on we can bring the, uh, the element of race
00:11:34in it.
00:11:35I don't want to take up too much time, but, but, but, but, but these are the, these are
00:11:40the things that I just realized now, the things that I thought that I think that have hurt
00:11:44me for a long time, that I feel like, oh, I was practicing something else by really just
00:11:50doing my, my, my, that work.
00:11:53But it diminishes so much by saying that that's what really, really pisses me off.
00:11:57Um, is that I find is that there is one idea of what is sexy.
00:12:01Mm-hmm.
00:12:02And I just, and I feel that now because you sort of, I'm doing more and more photo shoots
00:12:06and more and more things like that that are required of me and I'm sort of expected to
00:12:09be a certain way.
00:12:10Mm-hmm.
00:12:11And I sort of have...
00:12:12What is that way?
00:12:13What is, what is it that you find and what are you...
00:12:15The sexy thing.
00:12:16I just don't have it, I don't have it into me, in me to be sexy as someone else.
00:12:21Uh-huh.
00:12:22I don't know what, why I would be sexy or in what way I'm sexy.
00:12:25I don't know whether I can play up my sexiness.
00:12:27I don't know what that is that people see as me as sexy, but I can't be someone else.
00:12:32But I'm not talking about that kind of sexy.
00:12:35I'm talking about my kind of sexy.
00:12:37Yeah.
00:12:38Like I, I've, yes, many, many times been told I'm not sexy enough or beautiful enough
00:12:42or whatever.
00:12:43Like so many more times than I can even remember from the time I was 22 years old.
00:12:47Like I, I, yes.
00:12:49But I'm talking about like what you're saying, which is like, I think I figured out at some
00:12:54point that one of the things in my toolbox was the way I feel that I'm sexy.
00:13:00Mm-hmm.
00:13:01And, um, yeah, I'm sure there is.
00:13:03Your sexuality and your sexuality.
00:13:05Yeah, because it is a power.
00:13:06It is a strength.
00:13:07Of course it is.
00:13:08And like, look for, I mean, I don't know, I've been thinking about a lot of this because
00:13:12of everything that's been going on in the world right now.
00:13:14But like a hundred years ago, the only way you could actually support yourself, let alone
00:13:20have the life you wanted to have, is by connecting with a man.
00:13:24Mm-hmm.
00:13:25And so what's in your toolbox?
00:13:27Mm-hmm.
00:13:28You're getting a bit in your intelligence and your sexuality.
00:13:30All of it.
00:13:31Mm-hmm.
00:13:32So like for us as women, we have to use whatever's in our toolbox.
00:13:34I'm not interested in the pretend sexy thing.
00:13:37And I, I'm not interested in seeing it in other people either.
00:13:40No, but I don't think anybody, that's the thing, I think that's the fallacy of it.
00:13:42I don't think anybody really is.
00:13:43I know.
00:13:44And I think, well, I mean, yeah.
00:13:46I wonder, does it change now that you're seeing more, I mean, male nudity has become,
00:13:53I mean, certainly on, on Westworld and on The Deuce, you're seeing more of that.
00:13:56Does that change the sort of tone on set?
00:13:59Does that change the conversation we're seeing?
00:14:01Of course.
00:14:02In what way?
00:14:03What are the conversations that you've not previously had that you, you are having now
00:14:07on your set, on your set, on other ones?
00:14:09Oh, I've had like three prosthetic penises put in front of a group of people to figure
00:14:13out which one went best with which male.
00:14:16Wow.
00:14:17And what does that feel like, having always been the one where you were the one stripping
00:14:21down?
00:14:22I don't know how to compare that to anything.
00:14:27I do.
00:14:28I do.
00:14:29I mean, with the second season of Westworld, Simon Quarterman, who was terrified and he
00:14:34was completely naked.
00:14:35There was no prosthetic penis there.
00:14:37He decided to go for it.
00:14:39And just being aware of his vulnerability and how, because that's the truth.
00:14:45When we're naked, we are vulnerable.
00:14:47Why are we all walking around in clothes?
00:14:49You know?
00:14:50And yes, it is a strength, of course.
00:14:52If it's, you can, we can use that strength.
00:14:54But in reality, and that's what I love about Westworld, is that it's showing the vulnerability
00:14:59and the objectification of a person.
00:15:02And if you see a person naked, not in a sexual context, suddenly you don't want to look.
00:15:08You know?
00:15:09Maybe some people do want to jerk off to what I was doing in season one.
00:15:13I think that's really weird and they should check into a hospital.
00:15:16But, you know, it's, and I thought that was, that's why I took the show.
00:15:20I've been objectified.
00:15:21I've had directors lie to me when I'm in a naked situation on, you know, a movie and told
00:15:27that they're cutting here, when in fact they're shooting from here, so you see everything.
00:15:31You know, and it's, it is titillation.
00:15:33I've had terrible things happen, which I don't, you know, I've talked about them in the press.
00:15:38And so it's, it's a really tough place to come from when you've actually been abused for your sexual, you know, in a sexual way.
00:15:47So to be able to say to the showrunners of Westworld, I am willing to stand for 75% of this season one, totally naked, because it wasn't a sexual context.
00:15:57And it, it was actually an environment where we're treated, the robots are treated like animals in a factory farm, bodies dumped on the ground.
00:16:05And in that place of complete vulnerability, she learns how to empower herself.
00:16:11Not real.
00:16:18But what about me?
00:16:21My dreams, my thoughts, my body, are they not real?
00:16:34And what if I took these unreal fingers?
00:16:43And use them to decorate the walls with your outsized personality. Would that be real?
00:16:47It was like, she literally, in that space of total dehumanization, she learns to use their power against them.
00:16:58And it's such a stark and brave and bold reality that they create that, you know, what it ends up doing in the, you know, in our society, I think it's really, it's really powerful.
00:17:11The potential is huge.
00:17:12Sure, sure.
00:17:13But then, just to get to your point, you know, to see this man terrified of being naked, when Evan, Rachel Wood and I had kind of grown accustomed to it, you know, sitting there having a chat, have a glass of water, you're totally naked.
00:17:24I mean, that didn't actually happen, I'm trying to just, it was very touching.
00:17:29Uh-huh.
00:17:30It was very touching.
00:17:31And he has learned that it's really tough.
00:17:33Yeah.
00:17:34And I think the more men that do it, and men are also really worried about how their bodies look.
00:17:38Sure, sure.
00:17:39So much more worried than us.
00:17:41How does, like, these guys on Westworld, like, how does my bum look?
00:17:44I'm really scared, can do some shading here and there.
00:17:46And we're like, really?
00:17:47Yeah.
00:17:48And also, welcome to my world.
00:17:49Yes.
00:17:50For sure.
00:17:51No, I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:17:52Some of you are producers on your shows.
00:17:54How have you weighed in as it relates to the treatment of women?
00:17:57When have you weighed in?
00:17:58When have you sort of stepped in and said, this is how I would feel as a woman in this situation?
00:18:04Well, luckily, I mean, I work in a really incredibly collaborative atmosphere on my show that I have never experienced and been around for a while.
00:18:12And I've been in television for a while, and it's not like this usually.
00:18:15So I'm very, very lucky.
00:18:18There's no hierarchy.
00:18:20There's no ego.
00:18:21It's like, we literally will take a good idea from the first AD if it's a great idea.
00:18:24And it's in the show.
00:18:25It's great.
00:18:26That's great.
00:18:27It's kind of amazing.
00:18:28Nice.
00:18:29As far as, like, the nudity and the sex, I was lucky in the sense of five years ago I worked with Jane Campion,
00:18:36and she, for the first time, it was my first nude scene, and she gave me 100% approval without me asking.
00:18:42That's amazing.
00:18:43So I was like, I don't know.
00:18:44I don't know.
00:18:45I have that, too.
00:18:46Yeah.
00:18:47Everyone should have it.
00:18:48I don't understand why.
00:18:49What does that mean?
00:18:50It means I have 100% approval over all the footage, and I can literally say you cannot use that scene.
00:18:54And it means instead of having to negotiate, which I think is really strange, you can show a right nipple, but not this.
00:19:00It's so terrible.
00:19:01You instead go, I'm empowered.
00:19:03Oh, I'm comfortable with this, but I'm not comfortable with that.
00:19:05Exactly.
00:19:06And then you can shoot the scene.
00:19:07That's why we all need to talk.
00:19:09We're just doing it on the set.
00:19:10We're just doing it on the set.
00:19:11We're just putting stuff on it.
00:19:13Yeah.
00:19:14Protecting yourself.
00:19:15I mean, I've been doing a lot of nudity all my career, and I've had it for like 15 years.
00:19:23Yeah.
00:19:24And I've actually never taken anything out of anything.
00:19:27Exactly.
00:19:28So did you then get it on Handmaid's, and how is that?
00:19:31I have it on everything now, and they like can't send out a cut that has something in it without me like approving it, and it's just normal now.
00:19:39That's power.
00:19:40That's fantastic.
00:19:41Yeah, but it is.
00:19:42It's a really, really incredibly collaborative atmosphere over there, and as the sort of one of the only female executive producers as well, obviously there's a weight there.
00:19:50You know, I have a perspective that nobody else will have, and that's so respected, and it's so appreciated, and that shouldn't be crazy that it's appreciated.
00:19:59It should be appreciated.
00:20:00It should be normal.
00:20:01It's totally normal, but it's nice that it is.
00:20:03Yep.
00:20:04One of the other conversations that I think unwittingly you got pulled into.
00:20:20Oh, great.
00:20:21No, but my question about it is really, how does that feel, that all of a sudden the world is talking about a sort of a pay parody saga, and you know, whether it's Michelle Williams or it's you, your name is at the center of it.
00:20:36How much do you know, and what does that feel like, and what do you do?
00:20:39Who do you call?
00:20:40Ghostbusters.
00:20:41I mean, in perspective, you know, my sister has always been very good at saying to me, you know, the whole world isn't really.
00:20:49Everyone else is getting on with their lives.
00:20:51Fair enough.
00:20:52You know, but the implications of it could be.
00:20:54Yeah.
00:20:55You know, if I turned around and went and kept my mouth shut and said, I have nothing to say.
00:21:00I am a robot, and you know, I was part of a really incredible show that I'm really proud of, and I'm very, very grateful.
00:21:06Yeah.
00:21:07But that shouldn't stop me having an opinion about something that I've been brought into the center of, and that something actually, you know, it'd be very different if it was something that, you know, I possibly didn't have an opinion on.
00:21:16But I pretty much have an opinion on everything.
00:21:19But it's something that I feel really strongly about, and that I had a suspicion of.
00:21:23It did.
00:21:24Is that why it got talked about, because you had a suspicion?
00:21:26No, no, no, no.
00:21:27It was purely that it came about because the producers brought it up as a way of saying, you know, this is a good thing, because in the first two series this is what happened, but we'll never do that again.
00:21:38Except that you're not in the center.
00:21:41That's what's happened with HBO right now because of what you've done with the show.
00:21:46They're now having all the men and women equal pay.
00:21:49Yeah.
00:21:50It's true.
00:21:51I mean, that's a place where, honestly, so much talk, and where is the action?
00:21:57And I just get a call going over the bridge and going to Brooklyn saying that my salary is way higher than I ever considered it would be, and it's because of these conversations.
00:22:11And at first I was like, wait, this is not fair, and why do I get to, like, win the lottery?
00:22:18And then I went, hmm, no, it's been unfair to the point where I've digested it and accepted it.
00:22:25Internalized it, yeah.
00:22:26Without ever considering that it could or should be equal.
00:22:30Like, how strange what my mind did, you know?
00:22:33But also how it works so much, you know, looking back now and looking back at the conversations you have at the beginning of doing a deal and blah, blah, blah.
00:22:40All that, that I never, you know, and this may be a cultural thing, especially, but in the United Kingdom, we don't talk about money.
00:22:47No.
00:22:48We do not.
00:22:49We don't talk about money amongst actors.
00:22:50It's just not something that we do.
00:22:51We don't talk about it either.
00:22:52We feel we're equal already, so this is gross.
00:22:53I don't think people do.
00:22:54People don't like talking about money.
00:22:55Will you now?
00:22:56No, but the point is, is because, no, but the point is I don't have to now.
00:22:59It's going to set a precedent.
00:23:00Yeah, and the thing is, is that, you know, at the beginning of the deal where you're saying about whatever, and this is going to happen, and you're going to get paid this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:07That I have never, ever felt that I would ever be in a position where I could ask that or say ever, ever, ever, ever, and I would know what was happening, and I would know what the decisions were being made, but they use that to their favour.
00:23:21Sure.
00:23:22They use to their favour that you don't know and that you can't, and they will say, but you're not worth that, and you go, you're right, I'm not.
00:23:28Secretly, that's what you say to yourself when someone tells you that.
00:23:30Can we just add, though, this important, that there's an important sort of, to be specific about, it's not just the production.
00:23:37It's our representatives, right?
00:23:40And I think that our representatives need to be empowered to be able to fight for us, right?
00:23:46Yeah.
00:23:47Because they're the ones, very often, who make the deals.
00:23:48They're the ones who know all this stuff.
00:23:49They're the ones who know that men are being paid more than women.
00:23:52They're being paid more than women, and this is going to allow them to have, you know, the confidence to go in and say it, you know, on our behalf.
00:24:00Because that's the reason why we have these people in our lives, is to protect us, so that we don't have to have conversations about money, because nobody likes to do that.
00:24:07But do you feel compelled and empowered to start having them on some level now?
00:24:12I mean, are those conversations, you wear a director's hat often, a producer's hat, an actor's hat?
00:24:17I think I'm probably feeling a little bit more empowered to do so.
00:24:21But for so long, it's just been about wanting to work, and wanting to be paid fairly, you know, surely.
00:24:29And not having a frame of reference of what someone else is getting, or the fear of, if you overreach, you're going to lose the job, and you're just going to move on.
00:24:42That's used against us all the time.
00:24:43And you hear that, yeah, we're going to move on.
00:24:45Right, if you say no.
00:24:46That's used against us all the time.
00:24:47But then you say no, and then they suddenly say, oh, actually, would you reconsider?
00:24:51That's a tactic I've used.
00:24:53It's not just financial.
00:24:57You're special.
00:24:58I think this question that we're talking about, about like, what are you entitled to?
00:25:02But also, there have been times where it's been more, but it's not been the role.
00:25:06So I've said, I've left, you know, I will leave it to.
00:25:09Well, sure.
00:25:10Because I don't want to bet you to do.
00:25:11That's what I'm talking about.
00:25:12That's what I'm talking about.
00:25:13My thing is not to chase.
00:25:14That's what I'm talking about.
00:25:15To chase that.
00:25:16Yeah.
00:25:17But to, it's always here.
00:25:18The internal power.
00:25:19Yes.
00:25:20That we don't, we're not privy to.
00:25:21How did you make the decision?
00:25:22But that's not only financial.
00:25:23I was just going to say, like you were saying earlier, how difficult it is sometimes to say, wait, everybody just wait for five minutes.
00:25:32Because this isn't right, the way this is set up.
00:25:36This doesn't feel right to me.
00:25:38This isn't an expression of my feminine experience or any feminine experience that I can, that I've observed.
00:25:45So to say, to feel that you're entitled to say, no, hold on a minute.
00:25:52As an artist, I think is something that, well, in some ways it just comes with experience as an artist.
00:25:57But I also think it is something that's shifting now for women, maybe.
00:26:02Well, especially there's so many shows now that are led by women.
00:26:05I mean, it's just, it's predominant.
00:26:07Now when I, you know, it didn't used to be like that.
00:26:09I mean, it's a new thing.
00:26:11So when you're leading the show and you're the face of the show and a lot of people are making a lot of money off of that face in your work, it does put you in an empowered position.
00:26:19And I like what you said.
00:26:20It's not just financial.
00:26:21It is about other ways of having control and ways of having a say.
00:26:26Yeah, exactly.
00:26:27Which frankly, no one's used to.
00:26:29You know, you sort of start asking for something and they're like, oh right, I guess you could have that.
00:26:33And they're like, you know, like no one's ever asked.
00:26:35I can't imagine being an executive producer on a show and someone, me saying something and them not just going, but you're just an actor.
00:26:41Yeah.
00:26:42Like that's what I got.
00:26:43You've heard that?
00:26:44That's why.
00:26:45I haven't heard that.
00:26:46That's what's understood.
00:26:47That's what it feels like.
00:26:49Actually, if you go in.
00:26:50Oh yeah.
00:26:51If you say, could we just pick up, push my pick up time by like 25 minutes.
00:26:54Yeah.
00:26:55Oh, you're difficult.
00:26:56You're just going to halt the whole production because you want to have 25 minutes.
00:26:59It's all about like, I asked to be a producer on my show because I'd never done this thing before.
00:27:08I know you've done it for, I've watched your beautiful work on television for many years.
00:27:12But I've never done the thing before where you get three scripts and the season is 10 scripts and then you might go on for three years.
00:27:21And I'm playing sex worker.
00:27:22And of course I've taken my clothes off all the time.
00:27:24And I'm like, wait, I have to be able to know that I will be included in the conversation.
00:27:29I want to learn how to make movies.
00:27:31I told you it's nickel and dime.
00:27:36If they can make and sell that in Europe, it's not going to be wrong before we can make and sell it here.
00:27:46How do you know?
00:27:47It's America, right?
00:27:48When do we ever leave a fucking dollar for the other guy to pick up?
00:27:51If I'm wrong, at least I learned something about making movies.
00:27:56Maybe I can go out to California and go work for Disney or something.
00:27:59In our show, there's lots of prostitution.
00:28:02There's lots of transactional sex.
00:28:05There's lots of fake orgasms.
00:28:07They're not called fake orgasms, but you cut in on the end of a sex act between a sex worker and a John and you hear this loud orgasm.
00:28:14And I said to David Simon Mann running our show, I said, I think you need to see a real feminine orgasm in order to show the contrast and to show that these are performative.
00:28:30Because also you see a lot of performative orgasms on TV that are supposed to be real anyway.
00:28:34So can we get down to the real?
00:28:36Because it will illuminate the misogyny in the performance and all that stuff.
00:28:41And when I first said it to him, he was like, he pretended to spit his water back in his cup.
00:28:49You know, he's like doing his little thing, David Simon.
00:28:53But then he wrote a scene where my character is sleeping with somebody that she actually wants to sleep with.
00:28:59He doesn't make her cum.
00:29:01And she turns over and makes herself cum.
00:29:05That's amazing.
00:29:06And when I first saw the cut of that episode, anyway, the orgasm, I just have to say, I was like, this orgasm needs to be the realest orgasm ever.
00:29:18This needs to be like the one that takes 30 seconds.
00:29:23See, you know what I mean?
00:29:25That's very quiet.
00:29:26That's super internal.
00:29:28That's just about her.
00:29:29And I thought about that.
00:29:32And then I like went in and did that on TV.
00:29:34And I think that's very vulnerable.
00:29:36That's way more vulnerable than the orgasm that's the performance.
00:29:40But also powerful.
00:29:41I mean, that is a sign of power.
00:29:42Yeah, the empowering to be able to have an artistic say in what your character is going on.
00:29:47But then, wait, I have to finish the story.
00:29:49Then I see the cut and they cut the orgasm.
00:29:54And I was like, I wrote like a dissertation.
00:29:57I just sang it.
00:29:58Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:59Sure, sure, sure.
00:30:00I woke up in the morning for me if they'd heard it.
00:30:01I'm like, you know, the second I got to set, I was like, where's the orgasm?
00:30:05And I explained to them, again, why they needed it in.
00:30:10And they put it in.
00:30:11Yay!
00:30:12That's fantastic.
00:30:13It's a beautiful thing.
00:30:14I'm curious.
00:30:15That is such a great win.
00:30:18But also, as you were saying before, being in control and actually knowing your career,
00:30:24actually exploring your identity and self through sexuality, fascinating.
00:30:29Fascinating.
00:30:30Fantastic.
00:30:31That's a great win.
00:30:32It's a great win.
00:30:33Preparation process.
00:30:34What got you to yes on 9-1-1?
00:30:37How do you sort of get into and inhabit that role as you're also inhabiting many others?
00:30:43You're juggling many different roles.
00:30:45How do you make that decision?
00:30:47It's a broadcast show.
00:30:48I mean, you talk about signing up for I don't know how long.
00:30:51It's a big decision.
00:30:52Well, it was, I mean, part of it was easy.
00:30:55I mean, it's the first time I sort of fell into it by four years ago working with Ryan Murphy.
00:31:02I signed up for one year to do American Horror Story.
00:31:05So I thought that was gonna be it.
00:31:06Uh-huh.
00:31:07You know, that's about, you know, as long as I can take.
00:31:10Before just going back and just doing, you know, just various things.
00:31:15Which is, you know, what I've enjoyed and what's been available and what I've chosen.
00:31:20But that relationship sort of extended for four years.
00:31:25So I felt, you know, very comfortable.
00:31:27Like it was, you know, a repertory, you know, company.
00:31:30Company of wonderful actresses and actors and at that time male directors.
00:31:37And just, you know, just the forward thinking with getting the opportunity to direct there.
00:31:45You directed on?
00:31:46American Horror.
00:31:47That's great.
00:31:48As you were acting in it?
00:31:49Mm-hmm.
00:31:50Ooh.
00:31:51Which is not my favorite.
00:31:52Yeah.
00:31:53But, you know, because I really love, you know, actors and the process and the creative
00:31:58and the collaboration.
00:32:00But, and also, you know, being mother, you know.
00:32:06And if I go away, it really has to be something that I'm attracted to.
00:32:12Because when I go, I am away.
00:32:15You know, it's consuming.
00:32:16Mm-hmm.
00:32:17Mm-hmm.
00:32:18Mm-hmm.
00:32:19You know, if it's theater or going to the UK or whatever the case might be.
00:32:21Mm-hmm.
00:32:22It's, it's consuming for me.
00:32:24Sure.
00:32:25So now I'm on.
00:32:26Yeah.
00:32:27Yeah.
00:32:28And, and the way that happened, there was no script.
00:32:30It was just an idea.
00:32:31Uh-huh.
00:32:32Uh-huh.
00:32:33But it was the company you keep.
00:32:34Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:35Yeah.
00:32:36You know?
00:32:37It's not right.
00:32:38It's just not right.
00:32:39Hey, hey, hey.
00:32:40Michael.
00:32:41Now look, my family is everything to me.
00:32:44And there ain't no trouble from the inside or evil from the outside.
00:32:48That's gonna tear it apart.
00:32:50Now we may be buried in it up to our necks right now.
00:32:54And I may want to slap you with my left hand.
00:32:56But my right hand is holding you and the kids tight.
00:32:59He found a safe place.
00:33:01So, yeah.
00:33:02There, yeah.
00:33:03Sometimes it's a script and you don't, you know, it's a script, you don't know the director.
00:33:06Mm-hmm.
00:33:07Or it's the director, you don't know the script of the project.
00:33:10Wow.
00:33:11This one, it was, it was the company, the entire company that I said yes to.
00:33:16Mm-hmm.
00:33:17I love that.
00:33:18You know?
00:33:19Unfortunately, it's turned out all right.
00:33:20Yeah.
00:33:21I would say so.
00:33:22You know?
00:33:23Sandra, you talked recently about reading the, the initial, the pilot script for Killing Eve
00:33:28and sort of running through and I think you were several pages in before you realize,
00:33:32okay, which character would I be?
00:33:34Could, would I be the, the central storyteller?
00:33:36Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:37What is that?
00:33:38What goes through your head?
00:33:39How, how do you, and, and what does that say?
00:33:41That moment was like a real punch in the gut for myself, to myself, because the internalization
00:33:48was really deep in that moment.
00:33:50So basically, you get the script, you know, you're on the phone with your agent.
00:33:54I remember exactly where I was.
00:33:55I'm right by Bam in Brooklyn and I'm on the phone going, scrolling, scrolling.
00:34:00And I'm just going, and I'm just like, I don't, I don't know.
00:34:03Who, who am I playing?
00:34:04What's the part?
00:34:05Who am I playing?
00:34:06Eve.
00:34:07You're playing Eve.
00:34:08I believe there is a female assassin operating internationally and she's targeted a number of influential people.
00:34:14She doesn't have a signature, but she certainly has style and I don't know who or what is behind her,
00:34:19but I don't think she's slowing down.
00:34:20And that just interested me, I guess, but also apparently makes me a fantasist and a crackpot and completely on my own.
00:34:27And you know, frankly, I don't give a shit anymore.
00:34:29She is outsmarting the smartest of us and for that she deserves to do or kill whoever the hell she wants.
00:34:34I mean, if she's not killing me, then frankly, it's not my job to care anymore.
00:34:37Something happened to me in that moment where I didn't even consider, you know what I mean?
00:34:42Like you realize you didn't even, you catch that, you catch yourself going.
00:34:45You hadn't given yourself permission.
00:34:47Why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I, why am I.
00:34:50Because you know what, that's also like, when I came out of theatre school everything was like, yeah, you know that kind of thing.
00:34:57And then I've been here for a long time and so that's, this, that's that.
00:35:02right that's you realize that the perfect when you're born right there's
00:35:10stuff that happens and then you wake up you know you know 40 years later and you
00:35:15realize that there has been weight you have been in turn things have been
00:35:19internalized so that moment was a punch in the gut to myself to go it's like
00:35:24how many years of whatever yes yeah has has been internalized put up with it it's
00:35:34more like have I internalized where I can't even see myself in this moment right
00:35:39and sometimes you do need as also what we do in our job we need to hold these
00:35:44things for other people to see right so the fact that Phoebe BBC America Sally the
00:35:52producer said yes why not this it was like I felt like happy or not I felt
00:36:00slightly ashamed yeah I felt like ashamed of my own realization of one because
00:36:05it's also I know I'm in an extremely privileged position I've been doing this
00:36:08a long time and also just doing this so if I have it right do you know if I can't
00:36:17see it I'm not saying that I can see yes I can't see it other people have that weight
00:36:21as well so again the work of relieving myself of that weight the work that I
00:36:28have done this whole time to get to that moment to go okay this is all the one of
00:36:33the reasons why I'm gonna take this I'm gonna leave my life here I'm gonna go
00:36:37away and do everything to make this and you know what's so exciting Sandra is you
00:36:43have literally in that moment turned pain into power literally because all that
00:36:47energy all that you know the oppression the repressed desire longing which you've
00:36:54actually managed to completely store away comes out in your art it is art that
00:37:00wrestling of no and yes is art and you have come you have put all that into that
00:37:04performance and it makes it electrifying and it makes sense of it all I think
00:37:08that's something we lose we are artists yes we really are we're creative beings
00:37:13and you know what if you leave it aside it turns into this sad toxic energy that's
00:37:21just sitting there we need places to release it and that's your role okay I
00:37:26want to ask you because the role you're taking on it's not just a big role and for
00:37:30you at a time in your life it's also you're taking on a real person that a lot of
00:37:35people have have thoughts on have read about know about have opinions about
00:37:39what's that process for you of of of saying yes and then figuring out how am
00:37:44I gonna cut everybody else out and do this and it's weird it's sort of a
00:37:49similar ish kind of thing I think you know I've been working for kind of you know 10
00:37:54years and I sort of thought I knew the actor I was I was like this is the sort of
00:37:59job I'm gonna get you know I got I did a job I was really proud to think of
00:38:03Wolf Hall I was really proud of it and I went I I that's it's all right you can
00:38:07die happy because I've done the role I've always wanted to do this is absolute
00:38:10dream I'm done I never work again or never do anything that's that standard again
00:38:14I'm fine so I got pregnant and I was like goodbye world and then got sent you know that job and so was
00:38:27like that what they think I'm that sort of actor they think I can completely you
00:38:32know I'd always thought I could transform but beyond my age beyond my my class
00:38:37beyond my anything else and so I met them and they all seemed to have this huge
00:38:43night kind of like yeah yeah you know you can I was like can I and so I because
00:38:48also I'd had a child I had so little attachment to who I had been who I thought I
00:38:54was I had no concept of who I was anymore I was just a vessel of emotion or just
00:39:02nothing I was nothing and so I just went just get out of your own way and just
00:39:06just be and so it was a very odd experience where I didn't allow myself to
00:39:12set myself any limits or say that I could or couldn't achieve anything or I you
00:39:17know the believability of a Mancunian small girl playing the Queen of England
00:39:23Do you know I've been Queen barely ten years and in that time I've had three
00:39:34Prime Ministers all of them ambitious men clever men brilliant men not one has
00:39:48lasted the course they've either been too old too ill or too weak I just went oh
00:39:58shut up you just get on with it and I just sort of did and I feel very lucky
00:40:04that I was given the opportunity to have people put trust in me but then also by
00:40:09that I go why do you have to have people put trust in you like why do you have to
00:40:12have people saying that they believe you can do it as opposed to just going out
00:40:15there and saying I can do it myself but I think there's something I think there's
00:40:20something really interesting about you know all the things you get either asked to
00:40:26do or send to you whatever where you're like I've done this I've done this I've
00:40:30done this I've done this and then every once in a while there's someone who's
00:40:33like yes I think she should be the Queen of England like they think I should play like
00:40:40a street hooker in 1971 and you're like yes I should that is what I should do and someone
00:40:45else like across the universe who sees you like sees you as an artist in a few things
00:40:52and goes like that I see what that person doesn't know they are yet and I feel like that's a really
00:40:57intimate amazing kind of across the universe type of interaction sure sure well how has it changed
00:41:05since now you're I mean it was two seasons or series as you say what are they now what are you
00:41:12being approached for has that changed no I mean the way you see yourself changed yeah weirdly which
00:41:19is really I find slightly kind of um I mean a bit I've noticed some sort of aspect of my character
00:41:25I'm like oh that's interesting like self-destructive where I'm like go on what can I do now like
00:41:31genuinely I'm like what I'm going to push myself to the absolute edge of my ability or what I think
00:41:35I can do and what I think I'm able to do um and I don't I've never really been like when I've been
00:41:42sent things that I feel like I've done before ever I kind of am I feel so lucky to do this job that I
00:41:47don't really want to do it if I don't feel like I'm doing something that is a lot of doing no no no you
00:41:54know I mean I don't I feel so lucky that I'm like well so many people want to do this so many
00:41:58people I know and love and my best friends have wanted to do this their entire lives and they don't
00:42:01have that they haven't been as lucky as I have so I'm like so I'm just might as well grab it by the
00:42:06balls and do it um but then I've noticed that I am just like I just sort of am running headlong
00:42:12into the fury and going um and and trying to just balls it all up uh-huh but but not because I think
00:42:20I sort of have that sort of I don't want to play it safe I really don't I really don't um that's a
00:42:25good thing it is a good thing but it's weird to know that about yourself like to suddenly go oh
00:42:29you're doing this anyway there's got to you know I'm outside I'm very I feel very instinctual anyway
00:42:35as a person and I just think then when you realize you are and then you purely run on instinct it's
00:42:39quite a terrifying thing to do but but really you know exciting
00:42:44I wanted to ask you because I know there's a particularly gruesome scene and I remember
00:43:01reading you say that you were excited to watch that with an audience and you were excited to
00:43:06watch people sort of squirm um and shriek why what is that and but also I mean a lot of people
00:43:16don't like to watch themselves on screen not only did you were you okay with it but you wanted to
00:43:20watch the reaction what was that satisfaction that you were driving from that um yeah I mean I've gotten
00:43:25over watching myself because I have to watch cuts and dailies all the time so I'm kind of over that
00:43:29uh but yeah there's a really gruesome scene at the end of the first episode like I don't really
00:43:33gruesome spoil necessarily but it's kind of it's not that bad but it's kind of your bar is yeah my
00:43:39bar is pretty high um but we you know we worked really hard on it and it was a big deal and like
00:43:43we we worked really hard to make it work and make it look good
00:44:03I don't know it's just like a gleeful
00:44:19and was it what you expected it's more than that
00:44:21it was just general like uncomfortable and an outcry and just like people squirming and I literally
00:44:29am sitting there like the devil I just was like
00:44:31oh god I can't wait I can't wait
00:44:33you know it's just because you work so hard on something and you put
00:44:36so in our special effects makeup people put so much into it and
00:44:40everybody worked on it so it's just you know I was we're proud of it so I wanted to I wanted
00:44:45to hear the screams but do you guys find you're surprised by the response that that an audience
00:44:51has or or you often it's what you think it's going to be have there been time you look like
00:44:57you have an answer I don't know how you could possibly you can't predict it you can't predict
00:45:00you can't predict no people you think they can really I mean don't I mean understand one of the
00:45:04things about I mean a lot of us come from film and it's actually it's an interesting transition to
00:45:09get into television because with a film you get one shot at it you know that's that hour and a half
00:45:14and it's done but what's so extraordinary about television is that because it's ongoing you do
00:45:19build up this this kind of I don't know a tribe that follows you and whether you want to or not
00:45:26you can't help but start hearing what people are saying and this groundswell of feeling about the work
00:45:32that you're doing about the character that you're playing and certainly if you're playing Maeve it was
00:45:36very surprising because she's a she's a secondary character and I did it because I just wanted to be
00:45:41part of this this incredible show that was going to subvert all these stereotypes in a really cool
00:45:47way it's cowboys and robots man I mean I didn't expect it to be you know an existential kind of
00:45:52phenomenon um although I loved all the existential stuff for me personally um so but to then get that
00:45:58feedback over time you suddenly feel this I mean I I do feel a responsibility when I'm playing all the
00:46:04roles I play because I don't want to influence young people in ways that I think are going to damage
00:46:10them you know so I try and literally get away from roles that I think are gratuitous um and it's
00:46:15hard in television because you get the first two episodes and you don't know what's going to happen
00:46:19um so I think it is really with long-term performances we get a chance I mean you must
00:46:25have experienced this too Sandra with years of great anatomy you get the response that comes back is
00:46:31it's exciting it just makes you invest that much more makes you feel the sense of responsibility because
00:46:38there's genuine love for the characters that you play or hatred I mean depending what character
00:46:42you play but certainly for Maeve I could feel this desire from audiences to have her free and that's
00:46:49you know it wasn't just women of color of 45 years old that loved it you know men younger people
00:46:56older people of old ethnicities just went for this character I think it's because she's not human
00:47:01and it is the wild west it took people out of well she's not like me you know I'm not it actually
00:47:06allowed you to connect more with her because she's not human right ironically you know so but that long
00:47:12term that long-term experience is really valuable I think it is really valuable I love it yeah I mean I
00:47:18don't come from film I actually come from television and it's so it's what I know and now I'm sort of
00:47:23doing more films but because of what I've done in television they're letting me do them now and you know
00:47:28that's amazing it is weird that thing yeah it's weird it's the opposite it's the complete opposite
00:47:35yeah it's the snobbery around working in television has gone gone it's gone it's sort of it's flipped
00:47:40now but I've I've only known having like worked on a character for five six seven years and so for me
00:47:47I panic with a film because I'm like oh my god I only have I have six weeks or I have two months and
00:47:52that's it then it's gone I never get to work on the character again like so it has to be right it has
00:47:56to be right this one time and that freaks me out it's like a beginning a middle and an end and you
00:48:00know exactly what's going to happen and it's a totally sort of different experience for me
00:48:04having come the opposite way I really prefer television in a way because I I love sitting
00:48:08with a character for nine years or whatever is that how long and you said 10 years
00:48:18it's a whole different other realm of acting yeah it really is you know it's like people say
00:48:23how do you do the same show in theater you know yeah after night I was like it's not the same show
00:48:28night after night it's not every single time you get and then it's also like you know on on network
00:48:34yeah it's like okay you have 22 episodes right out of the 22 episodes unbelievable six may be about
00:48:41kind of your character out of that right maybe three have like really good stories and out of that
00:48:46for me it would be you you go today did I have an honest moment yeah right right every day did I
00:48:54have one honest moment it's okay don't lay it all on you because you get you get to go up to bat
00:49:00again and again yes you know there's a lot of weight on that because um i think it's uh i think you have to
00:49:07put more energy to continue being creative yeah yeah it's not as easy to do that you have to do that it's
00:49:14more of a marathon that's a later question no but seriously it's a later question because i don't
00:49:18it's like i i go to class i have a group i have a teacher i have all that and and so that's just a
00:49:24whole other thing for me my responsibility you know come you know after like the second or actually
00:49:30probably second season i was just like right yeah i gotta i gotta go back in basically where i come
00:49:36from you know in theaters it's like i gotta go i gotta go back in i don't know what it is like
00:49:40this is not the what how do i make sense of it and that for me honestly create i started my own
00:49:46just found my creative path i know which which so when it comes i want to go back to the a point
00:49:53about how you start from your early on career to later and how you don't have as much choices and
00:50:00what you can fill those tiny little moments when you don't have a lot of dialogue you don't have a
00:50:04whatever if you still want to work as an actor and be creative and empowered as an actor i swear
00:50:10you can still do it you know what i mean because if there's going to be one person who's going to
00:50:15play this korean prostitute it's going to be me because i know i don't have i don't have don't
00:50:20have dialogue in english i don't have this i would end up being cut out you know what i mean but
00:50:26in the universe of it you're going to pan across that and you're going to pan across my face and i'm
00:50:31going to be doing i'm going to be filled but anyway you're going to have that day at work
00:50:35exactly which is either going to be a super drag yeah exactly or it's going to be some kind of
00:50:40experience because all those things bring hopefully all of us to this moment you know what i mean
00:50:46because because i think we've all had to along the way make our decisions of well this is crappy but i
00:50:52gotta eat yes yeah yeah no to then the point of going okay how do i want to influence the storyline
00:50:59and how do i let's say regarding other people who do not have as much power how do i influence the
00:51:05casting on the show how do i influence the people behind the camera on the show because now after
00:51:10all this time i'm able to say something yeah yeah and you can fight for something and they have to
00:51:14listen yes when it comes to responses you obviously were just part of black panther which was the the
00:51:20sort of biggest of them all
00:51:34i am curious you've you've done a lot of things you've done a lot of wonderful things in your career
00:51:40at what point did this one feel different it it felt different immediately you know getting getting the
00:51:46call from ryan and again that was one of those situations where it was you know a walk of faith
00:51:52because i had met him briefly before at a pre at a premiere but i was a fan of his previous two films
00:51:59his only two films very small film and then a slightly bigger film but this one was a massive massive
00:52:06undertaking for this young man but you had faith that do you feel the weight of that you did and you
00:52:13felt a responsibility to be in there with him but it was not just me you felt there's there's some
00:52:20there's some moments and some sets where everyone catches you know the fever of the heat of it and
00:52:28they're bringing they're they're bringing the best to the moment they're giving the full measure of their
00:52:33devotion everyone and that's what you experience and saw and felt on that set you know you knew it was
00:52:40going to be special but how special you know standing in warrior falls and just seeing hundreds of
00:52:45extras on this mountaintop this mount that looked like something from disney world and hearing drummers
00:52:51doing 10-hour days under the hot sun with lights beaming down giving us sunburned eyes or whatever we
00:52:59didn't know that was happening but drumming and the entire mountains just swaying and it was just magical
00:53:06and folks looking and we're just joy joy joy and you would continue and then when it
00:53:13you know folk were waiting but you didn't know the breath of the folk who were waiting that the
00:53:18eight-year-old and the 83 year old were waiting you know hungry that every yeah and what it would do
00:53:24and that this could be the as they said the blackest black black africanist film that ever was and it was
00:53:30embraced it it made me think you know if i had been eight and watched that movie it would have changed
00:53:36my life it would have changed the course of my life because back then coming from a small town in
00:53:41england there were no people of color around i mean i know i'm a unique exception because that's not
00:53:47often that happens but what we see around us who there is out there that represents how we feel and who we
00:53:53are is of critical importance so you would just grab yeah it's just grab onto whatever images that
00:54:02inspired you and and just move through it was just michael jackson that was it and that didn't go so well
00:54:08that's not a great role model as it turns out you know we're going to end with the lightning round
00:54:12quickly i wish hollywood would cast me as a oh you said alien so i'm going to oh did i say alien you said
00:54:20alien which i loved oh god this is like me either oh my god no oh god this is too much i was always
00:54:29wishing hollywood would cast me as a queen so and it never yeah i would always say that and i'll
00:54:35say they never you know until yeah but now they're going to make me up anyway you know so um and now
00:54:47that that's occurred i mean yeah i feel like my daughter is she's 13 now she was 12 when she was
00:55:02cast in a really really big movie and it was not something i led her to i think i've actually tried
00:55:07to stop her from getting into the my world and it happened by accident and she's the lead in this huge
00:55:13movie which comes out next year and i know it's not exactly your question but i look at her and i
00:55:18think that's me i have been cast that is exactly how i would like to be cast and it's happening in
00:55:26my girl and to see her just effortlessly taking the light and and it's how she's been raised it's the
00:55:33stuff i've talked to her about it's the empowerment of just being in a creative environment where
00:55:40we have struggled but we do now we don't wait for permission my husband and i and to see her just
00:55:46like whatever and i'll say things to her like baby just be careful and she's like mom i'm way cooler
00:55:51than you when you were 12. and i know that's a that's just a simple you know comment but it's real
00:55:56so i just feel like i'm trying to put my own trauma aside stuff that i've been through we've shared
00:56:01together because i look at the next generation because we have raised them to be strong
00:56:06um whether they're girls or boys and to see them standing in their power and they don't want to
00:56:11hear about the i went through anymore they kind of they really tune out it's like mom yeah yeah i got
00:56:16this and it's amazing so you know there is of course we'd like in our lifetimes for to be fully
00:56:24realized to be fully rewarded but you know what that's not life the reality is we've got to pass it
00:56:29forward and let them shine right and it's what we do for them it's how we inspire them by all the things
00:56:35that we've talked about today because they're the ones who are going to take over we're not going
00:56:39to be here you know and i think that that kind of attitude to be to be joyful that life carries on
00:56:45when we're we're gone movies carry on when we're gone and it's about truly truly thinking about what's
00:56:52life going to be for them what's life going to be like for them yeah what would you tell your younger
00:56:57self knowing what you know now what's the advice you'd give oh jesus i'll be kinder to yourself
00:57:06oh god be nice to yourself jesus christ yeah yeah yeah i think we're so taught to be critical
00:57:12of ourselves we're so taught to measure ourselves against other people and it was something that
00:57:16oprah said who i just i just i mean there are no words but she said i can only be the best version
00:57:25of me there's no point in me trying to be you know that woman over there like what's the right
00:57:30i have to and it seems so simple and i think i heard it a lot but i never really understood what
00:57:34that meant and about the fact that it's about focusing on what you can improve on yourself
00:57:38and focusing on what's really good about yourself like there's no point in just going on bad i'm bad
00:57:42i'm bad i'm bad i'm be guilty be guilty be guilty feel sad feel selfish so you should go i'm really
00:57:46good at this and this i can improve on and that i'll never be able to do but you know maybe i will do
00:57:50you know um it's that thing of don't set yourself limits and don't try and be like anyone else it's
00:57:55just a waste of time what about you guys yeah the same the same the best version of you
00:58:02is inspiring inspires me to be the best best version of myself you know and sometimes it doesn't feel
00:58:08like that internally but have have more confidence i mean or even in the the oddity of the quirkiness
00:58:15or whatever just just sit in it sit in it yeah it's good what did you guys want to be when you
00:58:20grow up what did you think that you'd be now doing now so stupid but i wanted to be an actor
00:58:26i wanted to be a news reader desperate i would create the table and i would just talk to nobody
00:58:38and just deliver the news i thought i just and there was this woman of color who used to read
00:58:43the news moira stuart on tv oh moira stuart man and she's the voice and you have so much authority
00:58:49and you're literally telling people what's been going on in the world i'm like that's what i want
00:58:53and i'm kind of doing it yes what did you guys want to be i know this is awful but i had so little
00:59:00belief in myself or you know as a child i used to look at the argos catalog look at tills because i
00:59:07wanted to work on a till that is so sweet i i worked in tesco and i was like i've done it this is it
00:59:14you're a cashier at tesco yeah i had so little i never thought about a year ahead two years ahead
00:59:19five years ahead 25 years ahead i always thought i'd die young um and so now i'm just like oh my
00:59:24god like i just don't think ahead i don't oh my god from not all four to queen that's an amazing
00:59:31trajectory and that's the story of what can that's real that's life is so beautiful
00:59:38a dancer yeah i actually um i still feel like uh i'm a dancer who's just acting
00:59:46you know what i mean i will say this for a long time and i remember i was in my early 20s and i
00:59:53saw pina bausch for the first time i just saw her company dance i thought i heard company sounds
01:00:00right um i i thought for the first time when i saw her company's work i thought if i had seen
01:00:06pina bausch when i was eight when i was about 10 i would have never become an actor my daughter is a
01:00:12dancer she's a dancer like for real i'm not a dancer but it's it's that's she is who knows what
01:00:18her job will be but she's a dancer and we took her to see pina bausch she's 11. see that is amazing
01:00:24that is that precious time that if you see something and you walk into it yes because just at that time
01:00:29where i was auditioning for um professional schools and not getting in um my parents took me to annie
01:00:35and then it was like they're dancing and singing on stage right and i was just like what the hell
01:00:42is that right and so but i think that there's a precious eight to 12 time where you can really
01:00:47lock in on what you want to do for your well also pina bausch um and you know we don't go too far off
01:00:53the subject but she she stretches the boundaries of what's possible and she expresses things not in
01:00:59words obviously but that i don't see expressed anywhere else and when when i took my daughter
01:01:06to see her company dance and they danced cafe mueller which the second that the dancer walked on stage
01:01:13i started crying oh but this is like people who sing it's like something visceral like they're
01:01:19shamans aren't they they're connected they are it's alchemy something's funny and they just feel it and
01:01:23i just if i could dance all the time i think actor it was that connecting you know in those yeah
01:01:28in those early teen years
01:01:37thank you all for being here
01:01:58you
01:02:07you
01:02:08you
01:02:16you
01:02:18you
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