The Sales Superstar Lie: Why Your “Top Performer” Might Be Killing Your Revenue

Workforce Alchemy

Are your “top performers” secretly derailing your entire sales operation?  In this episode, bestselling author John Golden (Social Upheaval, Winning the Battle for Sales) breaks down one of the most dangerous myths in business: the belief that superstar salespeople can compensate for weak systems.  Spoiler: They can’t. In fact… they often make things worse.  John reveals the hidden costs of relying on “exception talent,” why silos destroy performance, and how leaders can create scalable, predictable, high-trust sales systems that don’t depend on unicorns.  If you’re a CEO, business owner, or sales leader trying to build a consistent revenue machine—this episode is a must-watch.  What You’ll Learn  -Why star performers often operate outside the lines—and destabilize teams  -How relying on a single hero seller kills forecasting accuracy  -The early warning signs that your sales process is breaking  -How to assign roles based on strengths—not assumptions  -Why preparation time before calls determines win rates  -How to align sales + marketing into one seamless customer journey  -The simplest way to eliminate chaos and build scalable systems  -Why technology should accelerate—not complicate—sales performance  Chapters  00:00 – The Myth of Superstar Sales Performers 03:57 – The Dangers of Relying on Star Performers 07:35 – Identifying Early Warning Signs in Sales Processes 12:09 – Optimizing Sales Teams for Success 13:24 – The Importance of Defined Sales Processes 16:49 – Quick Wins for Strengthening Sales Systems 22:18 – Overcoming Sales Slumps 22:49 – Military Strategies in Sales 24:39 – The Right Tools for Sales Success 28:57 – Balancing Structure and Creativity in Sales 30:44 – The Cost of Sales and Marketing Silos 36:19 – Aligning Sales and Marketing for Success 38:14 – Viewing Sales and Marketing as One Journey  Recommended Playlists  🎙 Full Episodes – The Mason Duchatschek Show https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaGSQcRH4ChwjjPLD9FN6r2IvuBp5PPbg  Want to Become More Valuable at Work?  Take the FREE Workforce Alchemy Challenge → https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com  Follow Workforce Alchemy  📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  🐦 Twitter / X: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  🎥 Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  📼 Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy  📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  #SalesStrategy #SalesManagement #SalesSystems #SalesProcess #CustomerExperience #BusinessLeadership #JohnGolden #WorkforceAlchemy #MasonDuchatschekShow #RevenueGrowth

Transcript

00:00most companies think their sales success depends on recruiting more superstar performers but

00:12today's guest hints that it's one of the most dangerous and costly mistakes a leader can make

00:17john golden is a globally recognized sales and marketing strategist and best-selling author of

00:23the books winning the battle for sales and social upheaval he is also the host of sales pop

00:30podcast ranked in the top two percent worldwide he's the former ceo of two global consulting firms

00:37and john has helped countless organizations move from chance-driven results to system-driven success

00:44so today he's here to share how leaders can build scalable sales systems boost retention and create

00:52alignment across sales and marketing that customers can actually feel john welcome to the

00:58show yeah listen thanks a lot mason pleasure to be here hey you've said in the past that chasing star

01:06performers is one of the most dangerous traps for business leaders why is that such a costly strategy

01:11on a number of fronts mason is number one is like these superstar performers if you're a superstar

01:17performer number one you're probably not looking for a job you've already got one you're probably

01:22sitting like very you know doing very nicely where you are so number one they're very very hard to

01:27find and extremely hard to to recruit and the problem is with a lot of superstar performers is

01:33people fall into the trap of thinking if i mason's a superstar performer if i hire him then all my other says

01:40people just need to copy what mason does and they'll all become superstar performers so we'll get this

01:45knock-on effect the problem is nine times out of ten mason doesn't even know what make makes what makes

01:51mason a superstar performer it's the it's the unconsciously competent yeah or he does but

01:57there's no way it's transferable or he can't like codify it he couldn't train somebody else to do

02:02what he does right so you fall into these traps so what you end up doing as you said is you if you can

02:08attract a superstar performer you're paying a lot of money for one person who really is going to kind

02:14of operate on your own it's not going to have the impact on the other people that you think it's going

02:18to have in fact it's probably going to have the opposite impact because guess what comes with

02:25if you have one of these top performers who's used to doing their own thing well they tend to be a

02:31little bit shall we say they tend to operate a little bit outside the lines so now what do you have

02:37does everybody else get the chance to operate outside the lines you probably not because you keep

02:41them inside the line so now they again they see well hang on a second this guy is allowed to operate

02:47outside the lines just because he's mr superstar whereas i have talked so it has these knock-on

02:52effects of it can actually create internal tensions as well it's what do they call it top salesman's

03:00disease yeah and like i said mason and like i said mason it's everybody it it seems logical and intuitive

03:07when people go like just go out and find the best sales person you can get for this industry and

03:13we bring them in and you know then they'll be able to go out and they'll have a book of business and

03:18they'll bring their clients over and life will be wonderful and like i said number one is if they're

03:23if they're doing really well they're probably not going to leave where they are and if you would throw

03:27money at them maybe but the other thing too is it's not a guarantee either because you could have this

03:32fantastic book of business it doesn't mean that the clients that they used to have are going to come

03:38over to your product it doesn't mean that the timing is right there's so many factors so people

03:42often fall into that fallacy as well of thinking if i get mason within a few months he's going to bring

03:47all these customers with him you may have phenomenal relationships with those customers but they don't

03:53want to they don't need to it's not the right time and so they're not going to move right so can you

03:59share a story of a company that leaned too heavily on a few stars and what happened when they shifted

04:03to a system-driven model no absolutely and in personal experience like we did have at times

04:10in in some of the consulting companies i ran i inherited a couple of star performers and and

04:15you know and a couple in particular who basically fit that whole mold of they were they were star

04:21performers they brought in a lot of revenue loved by their customers so you would say well what's

04:26wrong with that it's not great and you go yes it is great until you start to measure the impact that

04:32they have internally and the chaos that they sow internally because it turns out being loved by

04:38the customer was basically saying yes to everything the customer asked for the company if it did you

04:44know blaming the company if it didn't step up to support this particular customer but also giving

04:49them giving them stuff and and promising things that they we weren't able to fulfill or that was eating

04:54away at the margin of the business because that's another another consideration and so again you have

05:00this situation where you have somebody who is ostensibly bringing in the most revenue but at the same time

05:06when you start to look at the knock-on you realize the margins of that revenue are not great because they

05:11keep giving away stuff for free overnight you're reacting to every customer demand so eroding the value

05:18of it not communicating properly with the with the the implementation team and again you're now not able to

05:27deliver things in a systematic fashion because you don't know what they've promised and they've promised

05:31out again they're operating outside the lines so it did come to a a situation where the choice came down

05:39to do you opera operationalize and systematize the sales organization and this and the sales team to

05:46operate in a consistent manner efficiently or do you say i'm going to try and do that but i'm going to carve

05:54out these couple of people just because of the revenue and you can't do that you can't be it's

05:59like being half pregnant right i mean you either are you aren't you can't do this so eventually you

06:04have to make that decision to say okay your top performer has to start to learn how to operate within

06:10the system and if they can't then you have to face that unfortunate choice of perhaps this is no longer

06:16fit and yes we all report to people whether it's a board of directors or whatever you you need to be

06:21able to explain why it's okay to have your top performer or ostensibly your top performer walk

06:28away from the business so what early warning signs should a ceo or executive look for that signal that

06:36their sales process is a process isn't scalable or is putting the company at risk well i think the first

06:42and foremost it's it's it's very simple i would just ask uh how accurate is your forecasting

06:47and say if you have no if your forecasts are accurate and you can take them to the bank and

06:54you know you're there's only a couple of percentage points swing either way on a monthly or quarterly

06:59basis then everything sounds seems like it's working pretty well now i don't know about you but i have

07:04come across very few people who've ever told me that their forecasting is that accurate and it's one

07:10the number one complaint is is from from sales leaders and stuff is that they can't trust the

07:16trust the data they can't forecast and this is the knock-on effect of not having a well-defined sales

07:22process and a consistent execution and i'll just give you a simple example mason right if we have a sales

07:29for say we have a six-stage sales process i know it's nicely defined what the different stages are and

07:34all of that but it's not rigorously enforced right and it doesn't have rigor within each of the stages

07:39now i put my opportunity in stage two you have an opportunity identical characteristics

07:46but you're a little more optimistic than i am so you put it in stage three right immediately we have

07:53a problem we have two identical opportunities we're probably a very close in in in what's going to be

08:01their sales process or whatever but they're in different stages now so immediately your forecast is off

08:07because one of us is right and one of us is wrong one of us or maybe we're both wrong and we both have it

08:12in the wrong stage completely but that's a key early indicator is that if you don't have consistency you

08:17can't have forecast accuracy because if i run the numbers now your your opportunity is probably showing

08:23up as a 75 percent close mine showing up as a 50 percent close but maybe they're both 50 percent or they're both

08:2975 so as you can see the forecast is off so that's one of the key ways of sanity checking yourself if you

08:36think everything is running swimmingly i would just say look at your forecasting how accurate

08:39is it and then once you see okay my our forecast is not that accurate and we're missing things the next

08:46thing to do is to go and look at your sales process and say okay let's look at things on a macro level

08:51for for a start let's just look at the process itself does it appear that we're having the issues right so

08:57maybe you say okay it's stage three which is maybe that's the proposal stage or something hang on that's

09:03where the biggest drop-off is that's where opportunities get stalled the most so now that's

09:08a fantastic bit of information because now you know there's something going on in your proposal stage

09:13that needs addressing so even at a macro level you can immediately go okay what's going on here let's

09:18investigate this are we doing this right do we have the right materials do we need to train people

09:22better during this process do we we even need to redo the process the proposal stage maybe it's not

09:28working properly so that's another one is looking looking at a macro level cool on what's happening

09:34in the different stages and adjusting your sales process appropriately then after that you can start

09:40to you drop down into teams and individuals and start looking at them in the same way because here's a

09:45here's another trap i think mason that uh we fall into as humans and it often happens in in sales

09:51there is a bit of a resistance to the concept of either teaming or putting people where they're

09:58best suited right so so what i mean by that is mason's phenomenal at opening doors and getting

10:04appointments and starting a relationship phenomenal at that loves that great of that now as he goes

10:10through the process he's not so great at at uh at pushing the the sale forward and closing the deal

10:17right whereas john over here hates all that like doesn't like that stuff of like prospect he doesn't

10:23like opening doors he doesn't like doing that but you you give him give him an opportunity a door

10:27that's opened he'll run through it and take it all the way to the line in no time so what is the

10:32sensible thing to do there is it to take both of us and try to train us to be able to be good at the

10:39other parts that we're not good at that's one option but let's face it traditionally we we are never

10:45good at things we don't we're not good at or we don't like doing it's very difficult for us to

10:50become good at things that we just flat out don't like doing or we're not particularly good at so

10:55what's the other option the other option is to say let's make let's make mason the door opener

11:01and let's make john the closer and let them work together and let them knock the numbers out of the

11:05park and and collaborate and i think those are those are other things that you you can look at in other

11:10ways that you can optimize your sales team it's funny you say that because i i actually

11:15know of a company that had that exact dilemma it was a printing company and their number one

11:21salesperson was far and away better than any two or three of the others combined and it was a decent

11:28size sales force far superior as far as production numbers went however he was not detail oriented

11:34there were things that fell through the cracks and things that got screwed up and he left a

11:38wake of mess behind him yep and the leadership was like how do we get this guy to conform to

11:47our quality standards and the reality of it was it's not like they're gonna fire him because the guy was

11:52generating more revenue than anyone else by a lot and their question was well what do we do and what

11:59they decided to do was they hired him a shadow literally an assistant who was everything that he

12:05wasn't that was detail oriented that was compliance oriented that double and triple check to make

12:10sure that if they ordered black ink it was black ink if they were blue ink it was blue ink and it was

12:14correct and next thing you know problems went away sales stayed high job satisfaction it worked for them

12:22but they literally hired someone to be this number one guy's shadow and it worked but there's no way

12:30they were going to force that square peg into a round hole or his compliance and he wasn't it wasn't

12:35in his nature to slow down and it just wasn't and they acknowledged that and really made the best of a

12:41difficult situation yeah yeah and that's and that's a smart solution to the problem because as you said is

12:48you're never going to turn that you're never going to turn the top rep into something that he's not

12:52that he's never been that he never wanted to be right you're just not going to do that and you have

12:56your alternative you have your option either you force compliance and if they don't comply then you

13:01let them go or you do the other where you say okay let's augment rather than me focusing on all the

13:07weaknesses this person has let me augment this with somebody who has the strengths so that we get

13:12so we don't just get one-on-one making two we get one-on-one making three so beyond revenue how do

13:19strong sales systems in your opinion improve employee engagement morale and retention well i think it's like

13:25anything else mason i think when you give people a proven track to run on uh you know they're normally

13:31quite receptive to that and that i think has been the problem in sales because i think sales a lot

13:36of the time sales process and stuff has been has been something that's like they either bring in a

13:41consultant to do like let's bring in a consultant to find our sales process or or or mason you like

13:46this type of thing why don't you go away and design our sales process and come back and and uh and then

13:52you come back and they go yeah that looks great uh throw it in the crm that's our sales process from

13:58now on send out a document and we're good we're now we're now perfect everything is running smoothly

14:03but it's not right it's not because at the end of the day you haven't defined your sales process

14:09properly you haven't involved enough stakeholders you probably haven't gone into each stage and define

14:15what are the things that need to happen in each stage in order to be able to progress it to the next stage

14:20so you start to get that that level of consistency so the companies that do that really well and this

14:25is and this isn't just me talking this is like zs associates and mckinsey have done research on this

14:31that the top performing companies sales organizations in the world they have a defined sales process so

14:38it's well defined and within each stage of that sales process all of the activities etc are very well

14:45defined it is it is rigorously enforced it's mandatory there is no deviation on using this

14:53sales process and and it is constantly being looked at and refined because as we know buyer behavior is

14:59dynamic so your sales process is going to have to be dynamic because your sales process should be

15:03mimicking buyer behavior so i think that that really makes a massive difference to an organization when

15:09you have a very well defined sales process you have all the stakeholders have signed off on it

15:14the step the stages have have activities and steps well defined in it they have all the assets and

15:20materials you would need at that stage of the process everybody understands what each stage what an

15:26opportunity in each stage looks like what the characteristics are so you have consistency you're

15:32speaking the same language everybody understands and then your sales leader and your sales manager is

15:37reviewing your book of business within your crm within the sales process so you're also reinforcing you

15:45know behaviors etc so those are the things that make a massive difference and i think when done properly

15:50even even those sales people or who still talk about sales being a you know it's an art form john it's

15:58an art form it's not it's not science it's an art form you go no there are elements absolutely we love the

16:04creative sales people we love that element that can maybe that artistic element but that comes on top

16:08at the bottom it is it has to be a a repeatable process and a very well defined and repeatable

16:15process and you will find that the majority of sales people when they have a sales process that's well

16:20defined that's really understandable that works for them they find that that is that's a help and not

16:26a hindrance i could totally see that because from a sales leadership perspective what's that old saying

16:31if you don't have a standard it's impossible to measure deviation yep absolutely so if you were sitting

16:39across the desk from a ceo who wanted a quick win something that they could implement monday morning to

16:44immediately strengthen their sales systems what would you tell them to do first with this so there's a

16:51couple of things number one i would say make sure you're make sure your sales leaders are doing their

16:56any of their meetings or reviews with their teams of their sales people they're doing it within the crm

17:01and they're doing it using live data because if you don't do that you will never get you you will

17:08always struggle with that issue because people will be lazy people will forget people won't update things

17:13they won't move things around and if you if your sales leadership is not reinforcing that that is

17:20non-negotiable and that you're only going to deal with things that are in the system then you'll cure that

17:25behavior and i would just say that's a that's the first one to go because a lot of times the

17:30problems you have in a sales organization is they take their cues from their sales leaders so if you

17:35never go into the crm and do a review with me with my live data the message i'm getting is doesn't

17:41really matter what i put in there it's fine so that's the that's one that for me that's one thing

17:46that's critical the other thing i would say and this is this is probably the biggest one but it's very

17:52simple too it's it's go and see your sales people putting enough preparation time in before they

18:01have appointments so are they ask ask a salesperson say bring up your calendar i bet you have a load

18:08of appointments and they'll say yeah i've got a meeting here i got this meeting here and you go

18:11where's your prep time well what do you mean i say when are you going to prep yes you got this meeting

18:17at three o'clock when you're going to prep oh i'll probably i'll prep probably a few minutes

18:20beforehand you know i'll do some research why isn't it on the calendar why isn't there half an

18:24hour blocked off for prep time and that is that is that is over the years of some of the phenomenal

18:31sales people i have seen like people who are just like just fantastic unbelievable people prep was

18:38non-negotiable non-negotiable they would always prep i would go for i was actually it's funny because

18:44i was telling my wife about this the other day is when i was ceo like at hothwaite and i would often go out

18:49on on sales calls with maybe the the vp of sales and the the regional salesperson and the night

18:56before any of those meetings you know we would get together and i wouldn't run this meeting the

19:02salesperson would run the meeting between the three of us so myself the vp and whatever and the sales

19:07person would go through here's our strategy for tomorrow here's what's needed here's what you're

19:11going to do vp here's what you're going to do mr ceo this is your role and everything was planned out

19:17down to the thing so when we got into the meeting i knew exactly what i was there for the vp knew

19:22exactly what they're for and we knew how this was going to unfold prep time i see this as not just

19:28a mistake that rookie sales people make experienced sales people make this as well where they it's

19:34where you know prep is such a fundamental and kind of simple and seems like you know intuitive everybody

19:40would do that but the more experience you get the more you start to take shortcuts the more you start

19:45to go i don't i just take a couple of minutes here i've done this so many times i don't really

19:48need to prep for this call and then before you know it you're not really prepping for calls anymore

19:53you're winging things and maybe sometimes that works but it's going to catch you eventually so

19:58i would say to the ceo one thing is go back and go to your sales leadership go to your sales team and say

20:03i want to see blocked off prep time for every customer or prospect call you have and i want you to go back

20:12and do do preparation for the call as if it's your first time doing a sales call it's funny you say

20:18that because it's been a long time since i thought about this but i wrote a book in 1999 called sales

20:23utopia how to get the right people doing the right things enough times with a gentleman by the name of

20:26alan minster and alan used to talk about some of the things that we're talking about a lot and i learned

20:31from him he used to say that to your comments about the sales process he used to say that sales was a lot

20:37like manufacturing you start with raw materials you walk through specific steps in a specific order

20:42and you come up with a finished product like so if i make tables i'm going to start with raw materials

20:47and i'm going to walk through specific steps in a specific order and i'm going to come up with the

20:51ability to produce quality tables consistently yeah but if you rearrange or delete any steps in that

20:59process you end up with a pile of junk precisely and he was right then and he's still right and when i hear

21:06you start talking about some of these things like pre-call planning as far as i'm concerned those

21:12are kind of the raw materials that go into the manufacturing process if you don't have those

21:16raw materials they don't go into that process you're going to end up with junk yeah yeah so many times

21:23many times has that happened to you you know the way it's where you buy something at home depot and

21:27you bring it home and you start to put it together and you're looking at the instructions and you get a

21:31bit lazy and you're thinking no i can figure this out extra parts and then extra parts or there's a

21:36part that doesn't look like the picture and what you end up doing what do you end up doing you end

21:40up deconstructing the whole thing and going back and following the instructions and afterwards if

21:44when you do it the second time you do it right you find out those weren't extra parts yeah there

21:48weren't extra parts and it was actually quite straightforward but but that's the thing is we we just

21:53overestimate ourselves all the time and like i said when sometimes when i mention this people say oh yeah

21:59that's a that's a rookie salesperson mistake and i got it's not a rookie salesperson mistake it's

22:03it's a mistake that a lot of us make as we get older and more experienced because we just think we

22:08don't need we just we we don't need to do those bits and sometimes it's very humbling and i always say

22:15this to people that if you're in a slump if you're in a sales slump first thing you should do is go back

22:21and look at when things were working for you and you were closing business what were you doing because i will

22:27almost 100 guarantee that you will discover that there was one or two things that you're not doing

22:32anymore that you used to do you start doing them again and behold things start to pick up

22:37so in your book winning the battle for sales you draw lessons from military strategy

22:43what's one battlefield principle leaders can directly apply to building scalable sales systems today

22:49oh yeah there's there's a lot of them i would say that to one of the one of the ones is um i used i

22:55used it about actually about crm to be honest this is how i ended up with pipeliner from the founder

22:59actually read this chapter in the book and and and contacted me um i used uh the um david and goliath

23:08uh analogy because i didn't really know the story that in depth you know but anyway it turns out that the

23:13that the story there was that the king offered david the latest greatest armor and sword everything so

23:22the latest greatest weaponry that you could possibly have and you know david tried it was like this is

23:28too heavy i can't maneuver in this this is go so and we know cutting long story short the old you know

23:33goliath came out and you just get the old slingshot and boom the things down and my point was is that

23:39use the right tools for the right circumstances not about shiny new toys it's not about it's not about

23:47jumping on the latest thing it's about figuring out what really works for your circumstances

23:52and i see a lot of times today is uh that when sales organizations are maybe struggling a little

23:58bit they throw technology at it right they think if i and now i mean i know people are using like

24:04sometimes in their sales tech stack can be 10 12 different uh different technologies and i think

24:11that's a that's a that's a trap that people fall into it's like i you know we're having a problem

24:17with x i found a technology that solves that problem when you go well no it doesn't solve that

24:23problem because your problem isn't x your problem is actually the process underneath this or the

24:28philosophy i agree with you 100 because it's i agree with you 100 and and there was a there's

24:36something i was gonna tell you i absolute brain crap i didn't want to interrupt you and i lost my train

24:39of thought the whole idea for sales people is to be in front of their ideal prospects when those

24:44prospects are ready to buy not just ready to sell

24:47when you have you talked earlier about the systems and unfortunately i see a lot of these

24:53folks getting involved in all these different technologies and shiny objects like you're

24:58describing earlier and let's just take crm for example if you don't have a process and i don't

25:03have a system where you know step one step two step three where are you mr sales rep in this process

25:08because it is clearly defined you end up with overpriced data entry clerks who spend all day

25:13typing stuff into a computer trying to describe what's going on and where it's gone because they

25:17there's not a systematic process in place and they spend their time doing data entry as opposed to

25:23being in front of prospects who are qualified and ready to buy yeah yeah absolutely and i think that's a

25:29that's a key that's a key point though about uh technology you know we're a technology company

25:33um if i had a dollar for i remember my journey through corporate america there was always every

25:40company had a communications problem eventually at some stage there'd be an executive meeting and

25:46the ceo or somebody would go we have a communications problem in this company

25:49and what would be the first thing they do is let's find a solution let's find a communication solution so

25:56they go off and they'd say the poor it guy go off and find some technology that can help us with

26:01communications and so you would get you would get the technology or whatever the solution was

26:06and then you would just get a more efficient way of communicating badly you know because the underlying

26:11issue had never been addressed the problem is it guys don't know and it's not a shot at it guys it's

26:18not what they do they don't know like or even understand sales most of the cases and to ask someone who

26:23doesn't understand like or no sales or marketing to design processes that sales people are supposed to

26:30follow doesn't make sense no it doesn't it doesn't make sense so i think that's the other key thing

26:36is to is to not fall for shiny new toys but be very circumspect like technology you need technology to

26:43enable sales you need a crm system to really turbocharge your your revenue but you need to choose

26:48the right system and then what other systems you choose to complement that you also need to do it in a

26:55very i just think in a very well thought out and and uh managed process not just throw things and i see

27:03that's now is a lot of a lot of uh sales tech stacks and companies they're like frankenstein's

27:08monsters they're just throwing in this and the the rep is like bouncing from a crm over to like gong or

27:14something and then they're coming back and then they're going out to slack or they're or they're just

27:19just jumping from from you know technology to technology and and as we know that's not that's

27:25not that's not efficient to begin with but it's it's distracting too and and then you have to ask

27:31like what what problem are you trying to solve here because it seems like you're trying to solve five

27:34problems at one time rather than focusing on on one at a time so i just be very careful and

27:40circumspect as you put together your technology stack for sales but on top of that now we have this new

27:46we have this new issue mason if uh if you remember which you do because i know you and i are similar

27:53vintages um you remember when smartphones vintage is a good word it sounds way better it does it does

28:02yes but you remember when smartphones first came out right i mean these weren't buying smartphones for

28:07their for their employees and whatever the employees were bringing their smartphones into work

28:10and starting using them as business tools and you had that whole bring your own device and that

28:16whole and it was all like how this is how do we look after security and all this kind of stuff but

28:21it was all reactive because people were already using it we have the same thing with ai today is

28:25people are just adopting ai tools like individual sales people are adopting tools and then so within

28:32organizations now you can have people using all these different tools none of them sanctioned by the

28:37company and they're even going like it says people if this is going to give me an age it's only like 10

28:41bucks a month i'll pay for that i don't care so so now you're just expanding this whole you've got

28:47your tech stack which is a frankincense monster already and now people are even using other stuff

28:51outside it and there's no there's no strategy or process or rhyme or reason behind it so i know that

28:58some leaders this is a touchy subject because some leaders fear structure will stifle creativity

29:05so how do you balance process consistency with giving sales people some freedom to adapt in

29:11real conversations well i think that's the whole point is at the end of the day is you want to take

29:17away as much of the rote routine and repetitive work that sales people do you don't want them to be

29:22data entry people you want the system to do as much as possible to free them up from this and that

29:28and if that is done well and if they do proper prep work and they look after the system that should

29:34free them up actually to have more time for the creative because right now you're saying i mean

29:39it's like and i always love when people say that you know it's going to stifle their creativity right

29:43so you take okay you know picasso very you know creative we still have to get his paint the paints

29:51came from somewhere right you know the the paper the parchment that came from somewhere you know they

29:56all came through process at the end of the day he was able to gather the materials the paintbrush

30:01whatever all the materials that he needed and then apply his create his creativity started is when he

30:06put that paint on the canvas right it didn't start with you know building the paintbrush and and that's

30:13what i'm saying is like you want to make it you want to set it up so that the salesperson has everything

30:19they need and the space to be creative and the only way you're going to do that is if you have a

30:25consistent process if they if they're well informed if you have everything laid out for them so now they

30:32can say okay i'm as i can be i can engage with this prospect in a much more intelligent and informed

30:38manner because i have all of these inputs here and they're all properly laid out and i understand them

30:44so i'm really reflecting on like another conversation i had with alan minster my co-author of sales utopia

30:49back in the day and he used to say that he in his opinion most people didn't understand the difference

30:56between sales and marketing he said marketing is like planting a crop in the springtime you kill the

31:01bugs you water the soil you fertilize it you give it time to grow sales is the harvest he said but too

31:07often sales people try to harvest no crops been planted or worse they don't bother to follow up and

31:11someone else comes along the reefs rewards for their effort from your perspective what's the biggest

31:16hidden cost of sales and marketing operated in silos because a lot of them do no a lot of them do and

31:23i don't even think it's a hidden cost i think it's an obvious cost because i mean you're definitely not

31:27going to you're definitely not going to maximize your your revenues on that and this is a common

31:33problem i'll tell you a story mason one time when i was running hathway which was a sales consultancy

31:39based on spin selling the the neil rackham book uh based on his empirical research and he was no

31:46longer you know associated with the company but we had a large customer very very large customer

31:50multinational global brands i won't name who they were and i and they were having problems between

31:58sales and marketing or the ceo was sort of saying like you know they're both blaming each other and

32:03things are stagnant so i said so i called up neil and i said why don't you come with me and we'll go and

32:08we'll go and do a session so we met so there was a ceo and one side of the table then there was the

32:14marketing execs the other side of the sales execs and to be honest it was it was it was money for old

32:21rope as they would say at the end of the day because it only took a couple of moments to provoke a a just

32:28a an argument between the both sides where they're just hurling well not abuse but they're hurling

32:34accusations back and forth across the table yeah the leads you send us over are terrible they don't

32:40work yeah you guys couldn't close the lead if you you know if we you know whatever came up in front

32:45to you and smacked you know that kind of thing very predictable very predictable right and so after

32:51about you know an hour ribs the ceo said here's the problem and and he was saying well what's the

32:56solution is well the solution is very simple the solution is neither group understands like you just

33:01said understands the other person's role and they're never going to understand that role because

33:08you have because they're so separated and demarked like it's it's like marketing goes up to here and

33:16then that's the wall then they throw the lead over the wall then it becomes sales sales take it and they

33:21move on with it and that's it there's that big wall in the middle you know and on one side of the wall

33:26their marketing is graffitiing sales suck and on the other side of the wall sales is graffitiing

33:31marketing sucks right but that was the point and and they were saying well what what's the solution

33:36and we're saying well the solution is very simple the solution is you have to you have to have sales

33:42and marketing integrate or collaborate more with each other so they understand it's like you're you're

33:47you're you're often do you have your big sales meetings you said to this head of sales we have a big

33:53monthly meeting where all the you know the regional leaders are on and all of that and i said fine

33:58marketing execs need to be on that call well what to do what i said to do nothing to listen

34:04and he's like and i said if when when the marketing guys are on and they can listen

34:09they can understand what did what the struggles your sales people are having what's needed what's

34:15for marketing is working maybe it's not being used correctly maybe you know there's a lot of there's a

34:20lot of unknowns there but we're only going to know about it by listening and by understanding

34:26and then vice versa i said when you have your big marketing calls like have some of the sales

34:32leadership on there to give you feedback to the team on the materials you're producing maybe some of

34:38the training things that they're seeing how customers are here's a big one how customers are actually

34:44using your products right because marketing tend to be very you know connected with product or services

34:50right so they understand what's created they don't understand how it's leveraged later on as we know

34:55customers tend to use your product or service in ways that you couldn't imagine right and so that's the

35:02other thing is then you need that loop so so for me it's very simple and it worked here and it works

35:07everywhere when you just start to force and it has to start with the leadership the leadership of both

35:13groups to actively engage and be part of you know whether it's regular meetings or whatever but

35:19but feedback loops where now you're actually collaborating now you're understanding more

35:25about oh i didn't realize marketing was that difficult and then marketing i didn't realize sales

35:30was that difficult as well and so you get that empathy and understanding and now you now you have a

35:38a proper like flow of communication and collaboration and and to be honest here's my biggest thing is like

35:45it's 2025 and we're still talking about sales and marketing you know collaboration or sales and

35:52marketing alignment i mean it's like we talk about it every year and and and it's so obvious and it's

35:58got so much upside and no downside and yet so many people just won't won't do it i mean i i'm i'll be

36:06honest like i'm blown away i don't understand why most companies don't just say we're going to do

36:10this and go for it so what's one exercise or framework that leaders can use to align everyone

36:17around the same customer story that's a good question i think i think one of the best frameworks

36:21actually i mean i think we're just talking about sales and marketing alignment right now

36:25i think um the the sales leadership or maybe pick a top sales person and go through a an end-to-end

36:33sales um a sales process that ended up you know in a good result and what's happened but really just

36:39walk walk marketing through the whole process and then why the deal was won what's happening with the

36:44customer what's their feedback and all of that that's a very very simple way of starting to

36:49to educate and then and then to have marketing asked the sales people to help okay we want to we want

36:56to continue to refine and define our ideal customer profile you know based on on the story you just

37:02told us and the others like which of the characteristics are very typical here which are

37:06the ones you said yeah this is this looks like my ideal customer so it's that kind of it's those

37:11kind of simple sharing exercises and and simple collaboration exercises that are non-threatening

37:16that can really kickstart things so one of my i say this in almost every podcast but uh one of my

37:24favorite i love tony robbins i think his stuff is great he is amazing and i was listening to some of

37:29his seminars and someone asked him if he said the question was if there was only one piece of advice

37:34that you could give to somebody what would it be and i'm sitting there thinking this guy has so much

37:40amazing knowledge and experience and wisdom that can help so many people in so many ways what does he

37:46value as the most important piece of advice that he could give to somebody i was like fascinated i was

37:51stopped in my tracks oddly enough the answer that question was raise your standards but my question

37:58to you other than raise your standards is i'm trying i'm trying mason i'm trying then your knowledge and

38:03experience if you could only give one piece of advice to ceos or business owners regarding the sales

38:11and marketing what would it be and why regarding sales i'd say one piece my one piece of advice would

38:17be to stop treating them as two separate departments and start looking at them as part of an overall

38:24customer journey and how you can and how everybody in the company can come together to ensure that your

38:31buyer's experience is the best it could possibly be and that's what i would say stop looking at them as

38:36departments start looking at the same it says marketing customer service whatever implementation

38:41start looking at them as critical components in a buyer journey from from the first time they come

38:48in contact with your brand to when they go through the the buying process to when they become a customer

38:54and afterward and look at it as a continuum and then say how do we maximize this because the the thing is

39:00we're we're humans and we've become worse since we've started to apply all sorts of like our our consumer

39:07buying expectations to be to be buying but you know we're unfortunately we're hardwired in such a

39:15way as and i always use this an example is like if you take a flight right say you take an international

39:19flight you get to the airport fine traffic was okay you get your car parked right you get your bags

39:25checked in you're on the plane plane takes off on time flight is fine you arrive in the country so so

39:31far you've had a pretty good experience right now you now you get to the other end your bags are

39:36delayed coming off and they don't make any announcement and you're all standing around staring at each other

39:41and eventually you get your bags and you go if somebody had called you when you stepped off the plane

39:46and said how was your trip you would say fantastic everything's great just going to get my bags now it's been

39:51now call you post and maybe it was only 15 minutes you're waiting for your bags but there was no

39:56announcements or nothing now it's ah terrible yeah no they didn't their bags got there didn't come off on time

40:01nobody told us about it and that's the reality of human beings so if you're if your process from

40:08end to end if that is not the smooth this the most integrated and it's and you're having the same

40:14experience hopefully a good one the same good experience at every point in it then you win if

40:19you have different experiences at different points then you lose like if i have if i'm so the marketing is

40:26great i love this stuff and then i go into the sales you know the sales process and you're

40:30wonderful in sales but then implementation comes you kick me over the now i can't get you on the

40:35phone because i signed the deal and now you're not interested in talking to me you've dumped me off

40:39to implementation implementation are overworked so they're cranky or whatever whatever happened but

40:44that would be my my single piece of advice to ceos is look at you look at your customers in the

40:49totality of their journey and then tell you then go to the everybody in your organization and say

40:55our goal is a frictionless and the most positive experience from the moment they interact with our

41:01brand to the moment they become an advocate that's a great piece of wisdom thank you for sharing that

41:07so if people want to learn more about you your company the work you do your books what are the

41:12best ways for them to connect with you yeah i mean linkedin john golden i'm pretty easy to find

41:17also pipelinersales.com if you want to learn more about pipeliner crm behind me there and also sales

41:22podcast uh you can find me on youtube and all good podcast platforms thank you so much for being on

41:30i learned a lot and i hope everyone watching and listening did too thank you so much yeah thanks mason

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