Timeless Business Leadership and Employee Engagement Principles | Featuring Les Landes

Name: Timeless Business Leadership and Employee Engagement Principles | Featuring Les Landes
Uploaded: 2025-10-06T15:52:01+00:00
Duration: 46 min 28 s
Channel: Workforce Alchemy

Workforce Alchemy

Summary

In this conversation, Les Landes, President of Landes & Associates, shares his insights on employee engagement, leadership, and organizational culture. He emphasizes the importance of timeless principles over fleeting trends, the need for systematic continuous improvement, and the critical role of trust and transparency in the workplace. Les discusses the pitfalls of programmatic approaches to engagement and advocates for genuine communication and cultural assessments to foster a high-performance environment. He also highlights the significance of treating employees as solutions rather than problems, and the necessity of proactive mindsets in achieving organizational success.

Takeaways

-New ideas often overshadow timeless principles in business.
-Engaging employees requires tapping into their imagination and free will.
Leaders often underestimate the potential contributions of their employees.
-Continuous improvement should be part of the job description.
-Avoiding the program trap is crucial for genuine engagement.
-Trust is foundational for open communication and engagement.
-Transparency in leadership fosters a culture of trust.
-Cultural assessments can reveal gaps between current and desired states.
-Listening to employees can prevent talent loss.
-Engagement is about treating employees as adults, not just being nice.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Employee Engagement and Leadership

01:43 The Power of Imagination and Free Will in the Workplace

04:02 Blind Spots in Employee Engagement

06:36 Avoiding the Program Trap in Organizations

08:50 Implementing Continuous Improvement Systems

12:12 Building Trust in the Workplace

16:32 The Importance of Transparency

19:19 Cultural Assessment Tool for Organizations

23:04 Bridging the Gap: Employee and Management Perspectives

24:30 The Importance of Open Communication

26:18 Understanding Employee Engagement Myths

29:56 Practical Strategies for Leaders

33:31 Proactive vs. Pre-active Mindset

36:58 Timeless Principles for Future Success

39:56 Listening to Retain Talent

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Category

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Lifestyle

Transcript

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00:00Today's guest is Les Landis, president of Landis & Associates, and author of the book, Getting to the Heart of Employee Engagement.

00:08Les has spent his career helping organizations unlock the full potential of their people through employee engagement, communication, and culture transformation.

00:16Before founding his firm, he served as the head of communications for one of the world's largest food companies.

00:23Since then, he has become a trusted advisor and sought-after speaker, known for his refreshing approach to avoiding the program trap and instead creating sustainable systems that actually bring out the best in people.

00:38So I'm excited to dive into his wisdom on leadership, culture, and employee engagement because these are issues that every business leader grapples with, whether you're running a growing startup, a mid-sized firm, or a Fortune 500 enterprise.

00:50Les, it's great to have you today. Thanks for joining us.

00:53I have to tell you, I'm excited because, as you know, you and I used to be doing work together way back when and when I got your call saying that you wanted me to be in here because you said, your time has come or something like that.

01:04I can't remember exactly.

01:05You were ahead of your time, Les. That's what I said. I said you were ahead of your time.

01:08There you go.

01:10So tell us why you think so many business leaders overlook the timeless ideas in favor of chasing the next new trend.

01:18Yeah. You want me to make it simple?

01:20I do.

01:20New stuff is sexy.

01:23Old stuff is old.

01:25Okay.

01:26I mean, it's as simple as that.

01:28Too Good to Be New was actually a blog that we wrote some time ago.

01:31In that blog, we highlighted some of the books that have been written, I mean, to tell you, 30, 40, 50, even 80 years ago that have powerful insights.

01:43But somehow people just get away from some of the fundamental basics and they decide they're going to go on and try something new.

01:50Right. And I'm not saying we shouldn't.

01:52In fact, systematic continuous improvement, as you know, is one of the heartbeats of my system and my approach to doing things.

01:59And so you just have to make sure that you don't lose touch with the grounding of the thing.

02:05I mean, what?

02:06The Ten Commandments?

02:07Are we not going to pay attention to that anymore?

02:09How many years is it?

02:09How old is that one?

02:10Right.

02:11Literally, it's funny you say that because I was just thinking about the book of Proverbs.

02:14I mean, those are timeless.

02:15Exactly.

02:16It's timeless.

02:17Life in general.

02:19So what's one principle from your book that readers say helps them understand your approach to employee engagement?

02:25Yeah.

02:25Well, I'm just going to tell you what the subtitle is.

02:29It's the power and purpose of imagination and free will in the workplace.

02:33And I contend that those two qualities, the capacity to choose to do things that maybe is not in our animal programs, is unique among all creatures.

02:44And then we have this capacity for imagination that allows us to conceive of things that do not exist in the natural world.

02:51So those two things together, if we don't optimize those things for human beings, a number of bad things happen in the organization.

03:00First of all, to the extent we keep people trapped in our animal programs, doing the same thing over and over again the same way, we can't excel.

03:08We can't look for new ways of doing things, exciting ways of doing things.

03:12And when we keep people trapped in their job descriptions without really engaging them and engaging their minds and their hearts and their souls and all of the opportunities we're making improvements, we're not optimizing their humanity.

03:25And the second thing is, hell, you know this.

03:28Adult human beings hate being told what to do.

03:30So do kids.

03:32So do kids.

03:33But for sure, adult human beings.

03:35And if you really want to make sure that you optimize what people are capable of contributing, you have to allow them to kind of go outside of the boundaries of their job descriptions within certain guidelines.

03:46Obviously, that doesn't mean anybody can do anything they want to do anytime.

03:49But yeah, that's one of the fundamental core principles.

03:52There's a whole lot of others in there, as you know, but that's a fundamental one.

03:56So in your experience, what's the biggest blind spot CEOs have when it comes to engaging employees?

04:01Yeah, I think the biggest one, there's probably a couple, but the biggest one is that leaders simply underestimate the potential that employees are capable of contributing to an organization to make things better than before all the time on a regular, continuous basis.

04:21They simply don't understand and appreciate that if we set up a systematic process for really engaging people, tapping into their hearts and their minds and the souls, they'll give us far more to elevate the quality of the organization, the quality of the work than most managers can even imagine.

04:39It's funny you say that because I interviewed Chris Dyer, who recently, he is ranked by Inc. Magazine as the number one speaker on leadership culture.

04:51He was talking about when he ran a company, he was talking about when he ran a company, he had thousands of employees and things weren't going well.

04:58And he had literally told his employees, like, we're in trouble.

05:01Yeah.

05:01I need your help.

05:02What ideas do you have?

05:03And they said nothing.

05:04Yeah.

05:05Nothing.

05:05He said, yeah.

05:07And the reason they said nothing is because he hadn't told them the information.

05:10He hadn't given them the information.

05:12Once he gave them the information, he said, then not only did he get some ideas, but he got lots of ideas coming from everywhere.

05:18And many of them were much better than anything he would have come up with on his own.

05:22Yeah.

05:22So I hear what you're saying.

05:24And here's the problem.

05:25That example is great, makes a great point about something that I stress all the time.

05:30If you really want to optimize the potential of human beings in the workplace, we have to remember that they are creatures of habit.

05:40We are creatures of habit, just like all other animal beings.

05:44And the only way to break that habit is to establish a habit for an intentional habit for improvement, to break the default habit of doing things over and over again in the same way.

05:56So what Dyer talked to you about was a one-off.

05:59And that's one of the things that I profess against.

06:01We got to stop doing one-off actions and events and all of those kinds of things to just get ideas.

06:08So let's establish systems and processes that make systematic continuous improvement, getting ideas like that part of the job description.

06:18Okay.

06:19So along those same lines, when you start talking about systems and things of those nature, I know that the next word that usually comes up is, well, we've got a program for this.

06:28We've got a program for that.

06:29You often talk about avoiding the program trap.

06:32Can you share a story of a company that fell into it and how they turned things around?

06:36Yeah, actually, I have kind of a funny one, and I actually talked about it in my book, which, by the way, is a business fable.

06:42So it's a lot more fun to read.

06:43But I captured the experience and put it in the book.

06:46So we're working with an organization, and we're trying to get some fundamental changes in the systems and the processes in order to really engage employees in continuous improvement and a variety of other things to help make the organization thrive.

07:00We talked quite often with the management team that we have to be careful not to get into the slogans and the phrases and all of the things that we think are going to get people jazzed up and tuned in, turned on.

07:11We showed up to work with an employee group one day, and a big banner across the front of the building was commitment to excellence.

07:20And we thought, my God, they're going into sloganeering.

07:23And so we got into the room with the employees, and we just decided to ask them.

07:29We said, so tell us, what are your thoughts about that banner, that slogan out there?

07:35And nobody would talk.

07:38It was kind of silent.

07:39And finally, this one old guy who'd been up there at that company for a long time, one of those informal influencers, you know what those people are like.

07:47He said, well, let me tell you, he says there are only two signs around here that mean anything.

07:52One is exit, and the other is wet paint, and everything else is a bunch of bullshit.

07:58And everybody in the room just broke up.

08:01I mean, they had mugs with the slogan on a commitment to excellence, right?

08:04And the point I continue to make is when we get caught up in those kinds of activities, you know, pizza Fridays and an employee of the month awards, which are a terrible thing to do to a team.

08:15We need to make sure that we get rid of the focus on those things, because what really gets people tuned in, turned on, inspired and supported in being their best selves and doing their best work is not all of that icing on the cake.

08:29It's the freaking cake.

08:31We have to change the cake, the recipe for the cake.

08:35We've got to make sure we change the systems and the processes that tell people we really value you, and we're going to set up systems and processes that are going to make sure we tap everything that you're capable and willing to contribute.

08:47Give me an example of a system or a process.

08:50I've got about a dozen in my toolkit.

08:53Just give me one or two good ones.

08:54No, I'm going to give you one.

08:57Okay, I'll take it.

08:58I may give you a couple, but one for sure is simply the continuous improvement team huddle, and you get people together on a regular basis, and I recommend weekly, biweekly, no more, no less than once a month, facilitated by a supervisor.

09:18Four to eight people get together, and they go through a very specific process for about 60 minutes.

09:23And the first thing that they do is let's just take a look at what the key indicators are for our team.

09:30What are the things that are telling us we're doing a good job or not doing a good job?

09:34And if there are significant variances, we just have a quick conversation about what's going on here.

09:40Why did it go up?

09:40Let's do more of that.

09:41Why did it go down?

09:43Let's do less of that.

09:44Then the next thing, which is really the heart of it, is that we do a round robin with everybody on the team and say, give us one simple little idea.

09:52Now, we emphasize small because we don't want people to come up with things like, let's redesign the production process.

09:59I mean, who in the heck is going to do that, right?

10:02So some simple little things.

10:03Maybe it's as simple as we've got the tools that we need to do this job over here 20 feet from where we're standing to do the work.

10:12Let's move it over here and it's going to save us five steps in 10 seconds.

10:17Seems small.

10:18When you get hundreds of those kinds of things building on top of one another, it's amazing what kind of impact it can have.

10:26So you do that.

10:27Then you assign the go around and you say, okay, you document it in real time.

10:33What's the idea?

10:35Who came up with it?

10:36Who's going to work on it?

10:38What's the first step or the next step?

10:39By whom?

10:40By when?

10:40What's a submission date?

10:42What's a target date?

10:42What's the actual completion date?

10:44You have a tracking form that you use to keep all that stuff in the front of people every time they get together.

10:50And you just keep ticking this stuff off over and over and over and over again.

10:54The most important thing, equally important at the very end of this thing, we have a few minutes where we take time to acknowledge people for the contributions that they're making to us individually and to our team.

11:08If you want to do something that's really going to make people feel good, get rid of the Employee of the Month Award, which only one employee can win every month by definition.

11:18And acknowledge people all the time, individually, personally, right in the moment.

11:24So that's one specific example.

11:26And I will tell you the impact that I have seen, the ideas that people have come up with when you build those things, hundreds of those over time, the impact is massive.

11:37Gotcha.

11:37You know, it's funny, like in a smaller organization, you don't need a committee to do that.

11:41You should just go be able to tell the owner, like, hey, I'm wasting a whole bunch of time moving this from this.

11:48Table over here.

11:49I need my tools closer.

11:51Can I do that?

11:52Sure.

11:52But that requires an environment where there's open communication between the employee and whether it's the owner or the supervisor or whatnot.

11:59And I know trust is a big thing.

12:01And if trust isn't there, people don't say anything.

12:05They just let it continue, which is why you might need, in larger organizations, some of those committees and whatnot.

12:11But obviously, trust plays a big role in building an engaged workforce.

12:14But if leaders screw that up, tips or ideas about what leaders can go about repairing trust when it's been damaged.

12:21Well, I want to go back to one of the premises that you had before.

12:25And then I'm going to talk about the trust.

12:26And if I get off track, remind me.

12:28One of the reasons that people don't walk into the door, even in a smaller organization, and say, hey, why don't I do this?

12:34It's because they're so focused on doing the work that they need to get out.

12:43They're so caught up in the habit, in the routine of getting the work out that they just simply kind of say, well, you know, that's just what it is.

12:53I've got to get the work out.

12:54That's why.

12:54I'm going to interrupt you there for a second.

12:56I'm going to challenge you to think something here.

12:58I interviewed a guy by the name of Rob Gallaher a few months ago, and he wrote a book on profit sharing where it was like, how do companies, how do CEOs turn their employees into people who work as hard as they do and care as much as they do?

13:12And he came up with a brilliant way of engaging employees because that way the employees had a vested interest.

13:18And instead of saying, oh, this is just what I do and this is what I've been told to do, I'm going to keep my head down and do what I'm told to keep my mouth shut.

13:24But he set up a way that I thought his book was amazing and the interview was, I learned a lot from him, but he's literally talked about how to tie financial rewards to initiative and creativity and do problem solving so that an employee would come to a boss and say, hey, I figured a way to save us money and save us time.

13:42You got any problem with me doing that?

13:44No, that's a great idea.

13:44Go ahead.

13:45So anyway, I didn't mean to divert you, but like.

13:47Well, no, but let me go ahead and address that because again, you know, I don't want to contradict what that individual said because I'm sure he's.

13:54Quite brilliant in his own arena.

13:56He was.

13:57I was very impressed.

13:58So here's the thing.

13:59If you want to have people, this is what they do with the great game of business.

14:03Give people a stake in the game, which is exactly what you're talking about.

14:08It is.

14:08Don't make it for every single idea.

14:11Make it for the overall performance of the organization.

14:15He was very consistent about that.

14:16Yes.

14:17I go into all the important.

14:19Because then you get into, OK, how much is this idea worth?

14:21We'll give him 10 bucks.

14:23That's not what he did.

14:23I want to get into that.

14:25Where when the company won, the employees won.

14:29And again, I'm going to come back to what I'm saying.

14:30Even with financial incentives, people are still going to focus on getting the job done first.

14:37Sure.

14:38Instead of taking time for looking at ways that we can make improvements.

14:42That's why you have to establish a process for continuous improvement to avoid the default habit of doing things over and over again the same way.

14:51Now, let's go to your point about trust.

14:53My definition of trust is a belief that people will do the right thing in the right way at the right time.

15:00And if you believe that people will do that or whether the organization is set up to do that, then you're going to trust them.

15:06Even in the best of situations, sometimes things go awry.

15:11But whether or not it's trying to fix a problem, a lack of trust or breakdown in trust, or whether it's just trying to establish a really strong core of trust, I have some credibility factors, what I call management credibility factors.

15:25Number one is caring, care and concern.

15:29Because nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

15:33You've probably heard that before.

15:34Next one is honesty and openness.

15:37You got to be open and honest.

15:38Next one is responsiveness.

15:40Because you can be concerning, you can be fair, you can be listening.

15:45But if you don't have a commitment to responding and doing what you say you're going to do, what does it matter?

15:51Next one is competence.

15:52You got to prove that you know what the hell you're doing.

15:54Doesn't mean you have to be the smartest person in the room.

15:57And then reliability.

15:59A little different than responsiveness.

16:02Can I count on you to do what you say you're going to do?

16:05And then the last one goes to the point you've made.

16:08When you screw up on one of those other five, which you will if you're a human being.

16:12Sure.

16:13Last one is apology and accountability.

16:16How do you say as a manager, as a leader, my bad.

16:21I messed up.

16:22I made a mistake.

16:23We got to shift the direction we're going.

16:26We got to patch this thing up.

16:28I need your help.

16:29Tell me what we ought to do.

16:30That's a great point, Les.

16:34That's super valuable feedback.

16:35So there's all this talk.

16:37You hear it and we read it everywhere.

16:39All these organizations talk about how they say value transparency.

16:42But employees don't always feel it.

16:44In your opinion, what's the difference between clock transparency and actually practicing it?

16:49A lot of organizations are reluctant to be, quote unquote, transparent because they're afraid employees might not react to or deal with sensitive information in a responsible way.

17:04First thing you got to do is believe and trust in your team.

17:10And understand to the point that you were making when you say, look, here's what the situation is.

17:14Here are the things we got to do to address it.

17:16Here are some things we got to keep in house.

17:18Let's be real clear about that.

17:21Now, when you do that in a way that is really open and honest to the point I was making before.

17:29Clear about what the constraints are for what we can and cannot share with others.

17:34That's when you're I mean, it's got to start with confidence and a belief in people.

17:38I mean, that's where it comes from.

17:39And and so, you know, the difference is whether or not I'm willing to share numbers that tell us exactly what our production rate is.

17:48Am I willing to share numbers about what our profitability is and what we got to do to make adjustments on that?

17:54You just got to be as open as you can possibly be without I'll just say this without giving the formula for Coke away.

18:01But, you know, on beyond that kind of thing, the goal is be as open as you can possibly be and honest and help people explain.

18:10And why the things need to be done that you express need to be done in an organization often come down to basic numbers.

18:17We got to be transparent about those things, transparent about what's happening in the marketplace, what's happening in our own production cycle.

18:24I mean, it's a matter of being open with people.

18:27So I'm going to throw this one out at you.

18:29You know, we talked earlier about how years ago and I'm guessing this is probably 10 or 15 years ago, probably 15.

18:35Yeah.

18:36You showed me a cultural assessment tool.

18:39Yeah.

18:40And I remembered it, which is why I reached out to you.

18:43Right.

18:44And invited you on the on the show today.

18:46I thought it was very amazing and interesting then.

18:53But in all candor, I thought you were ahead of your time.

18:56I didn't think that the workplace was ready for that.

18:59And I value of hindsight.

19:00I think I was right.

19:02But I think the time is right for it now.

19:06Yeah.

19:06I know we have some limitations about in a conversational setting, but how would you describe that tool and what its purpose is?

19:16Sure.

19:17What it is and how it works to people who are struggling with what's going on?

19:23What should I prior talk is and what should I do about it?

19:26How would you describe your cultural assessment tool?

19:29Yeah.

19:29Well, you know, you hit one of my hot buttons, right?

19:31The culture assessment was actually developed many, many years ago with industrial psychologists working with a Baldrige award-winning company.

19:41And I was fortunate enough to be part of that group of people shortly after it was developed.

19:46And so I got to use that culture assessment and I have now turned it into a tool that can be done online as opposed to a paper tool.

19:53But here's what the main distinction is.

19:56The surveys that most people are familiar with are called Likert scale surveys.

20:00On a scale of one to five, from strongly agree to strongly disagree, where are we with A, B, C, X, Y, Z?

20:07How my manager talks to me about what's going on in the organization, scale of one to five, what do you, yeah, so on and so forth.

20:16And as you probably know from your own personal experience, having done Likert scales, because there isn't a human being alive who hasn't done one.

20:22Most people tend to go threes and fours, threes and fours, and there may be a five occasionally, two occasionally.

20:29Rarely is there one unless somebody is really upset.

20:31And so what you get is kind of a variance that's in the, you know, a high two to a low four.

20:38And then the question is, well, what do you do with that?

20:41I mean, what's your interpretation of that?

20:43And so our tool is very different.

20:45We have 40 value statements and instead of a Likert scale, the people who are participating in the assessment take these all 40 statements on an inverted pyramid and they put the values that are most like their current culture on the left, least like their current culture on the right.

21:02They create a word picture of all of these value statements and we say, move them around until it really looks like the culture you want.

21:09Then we flip it over and we say, now do the same thing for the culture you would love to have, your target culture, your desire culture.

21:16Let me feed this block to you.

21:18So what you're telling me is you have 40 different statements that describe a culture and they basically rank priority order in their opinion.

21:29This is what our culture is using these word descriptors.

21:33And then they also use those same word descriptors and say, this is what I would like it to be.

21:38No, no, no, not yet.

21:39On this first one, all they're saying is what is most like our current culture and what is least like our current culture.

21:46Current culture first.

21:48Gotcha.

21:49Picture most like least like here's the way we are.

21:53Then we do exactly what you said.

21:55We flip it over, use the same statements.

21:58What are the statements?

22:00What are the qualities you would most like to have in your desired culture?

22:04The perfect culture, the world you would love to live in.

22:06Most like least like.

22:09Same.

22:10These are the things we don't want in our culture.

22:12That's most important for us to avoid in the culture.

22:15And here are the things we want in this current, in our culture.

22:18So can you give me some examples of what some of those word statements would be that would describe the culture?

22:22So people can visualize this.

22:25Share a sense of purpose.

22:26Okay.

22:26Cover the mistakes of others.

22:28Pay attention to hierarchy and status.

22:31Work long hours.

22:34Demonstrate trust and respect for people.

22:37Communicate openly and honestly.

22:39And so as you can hear, there are some highly negative kinds of things and some highly positive kinds of things.

22:45That's what we want to do.

22:46That's how you get this richness of what the results of this thing prints out because what it will do then at the end when we show the report is it shows the precise gap between the current culture and the target culture on every single one of those 40 value statements.

23:04So what about managers though?

23:06You've got employees that say this is what we want and the managers may have a totally different view of that.

23:11Yeah.

23:11How do you feel that?

23:12Yeah, actually, that's what we do that.

23:15We get different group reports and we say, let's compare.

23:18Let's take a look at these things.

23:20And then when we get the management team together, which is how we usually do it, the process.

23:24It said, here's what you guys said.

23:26Here's what the employee said.

23:29Why does that gap exist?

23:31Why does that gap exist?

23:32And then similarly, sometimes you find that they're exactly the same on certain value statements.

23:39And you can say, you know what?

23:40Here's where you guys are really in alignment with one another.

23:43But here where you've got the biggest gaps.

23:45Now, even within a group, let's just say it's one group of people.

23:48You take these 40 statements and you look at the results and you will easily spot three or four things where the gaps are the biggest by far.

23:59And then we have a conversation, get people into small groups and say, all right, why do we have these gaps?

24:06And what are things we can do to close those gaps?

24:08And we bring the group back together, look for themes, and then we decide on what are some specific actions we're going to take as a group.

24:16And then individually, what every person has to do and declare publicly to the rest of the group is what is one thing I'm going to start, one thing I'm going to stop, one thing I'm going to continue in order to reach the desired culture that we say that we want to have in this organization.

24:30For anybody who's interested, just so you know, many of your listeners, I have like a one minute video that describes how this thing works.

24:39And I'd be happy to send it to anybody who's interested.

24:42What do you really do if or how do you manage, navigate or guide a company through that process if there is a big gap between what the employees say exists and what the management say exists or what the employees say they want and what the management team says they want?

24:58How do you help them navigate that?

25:00Well, it goes back to open and honest communication, right?

25:03You go in and you say, here's where the differences are.

25:05Let me tell you why I viewed it this way.

25:08Let me hear what you, why you validated it that way.

25:11And then let's talk about how we can find some common ground.

25:15You know, nobody, no employee in the world has ever wanted to have, put it another way, never expected to get every single thing they want exactly the way they want it.

25:25No group of people, rational, reasonable group of people does that.

25:29So what you have to find is some common ground.

25:32It's let's make a deal.

25:34Let's make a deal.

25:34What you're saying is if there's five gaps where there's very differing views between management and team members that you might find two or three where they can come to agreement and just focus on those and don't worry about the other stuff yet.

25:50Yeah.

25:50But it doesn't mean you don't deal with those other things because you do have to deal with those big gaps.

25:55You deal with them first.

25:56But you deal with the ones that are most obvious first.

25:59Then you can deal with some of the other things by coming to some kind of common ground.

26:02You know, I like to talk about because I know a lot of managers who say, well, you know, what the heck it's trying to tell us.

26:08You know, employees ought to be able to do whatever the heck they want to do with their imagination and free will.

26:12And I say, no, it's like the human rocket of performance.

26:16OK, if you view this rocket, a human rocket, you know, the thrusters and the boosters are imagination and free will.

26:23That's the thing that propels people.

26:25Then you need to have what I call stabilizers.

26:29Right.

26:30So your rocket doesn't go all.

26:32And that kind of thing is what really helps people figure out, you know, what is it that gets us stabilized as a group?

26:38And then the third one is a guidance system.

26:42And that is responsibility and accountability.

26:44We all state what our responsibilities are and what we're willing to be held accountable for from the bottom to the top across the organization.

26:54So there's a lot of people talking about employee engagement and some have better ideas than others, but I listen to them all and make my own calls.

27:02But if there was one myth about employee engagement that you'd love to bust, what would it be?

27:06One myth.

27:07I guess I keep coming back to the fundamental premise that, let me put it another way, it's the belief that employee engagement, getting employees engaged is about being nice to people and giving them lots of trinkets and trash and all this kind of, excuse me, trinkets and special things.

27:23It's really not about just being nice to people.

27:28It's about treating them like adults and understanding.

27:33You know, people ask me, what is it that, you know, what can we do to motivate people?

27:37Right.

27:37And of course, I've got this massive, comprehensive employee engagement and alignment system.

27:43And I've written a book and I've had 30 articles published and I've given presentations all over, but I can boil it down to three things about what really gets people tuned in, turned on, feeling inspired and supported to do their best work and be their best selves.

27:57Three things.

27:59Number one, people want to be informed honestly and timely about current conditions and future direction.

28:09They don't want to be left in the dark.

28:12Number two, they want to be heard, valued and taken seriously for the things that they have to say about how can we make things work better.

28:23Heard, valued, taken seriously.

28:26Don't give me a deaf ear.

28:28And give me a means by which I can do that.

28:30And the last one, the third one is that people, it goes to the point I made before, especially adult human beings,

28:37is that all people want to have some control over the decisions and actions that affect their lives in the workplace.

28:46And that's what all of my systems and processes are designed to do.

28:50Les, I love that myth that every, that's a myth worth busting and it's a common one.

28:56But I mean, I look back, you know, playing sports as a kid and growing up and, and some of my best coaches, ones I respect the most, they weren't my buddies.

29:05They weren't my friends.

29:06They didn't give me trinkets.

29:07They didn't give me a little passing.

29:09I didn't tell me I did good when I didn't.

29:11They were honest and they raised standards and they were demanding and they were hard.

29:15But I loved and respected those people because I knew that everything that they did, they did for the betterment of me as an athlete and the other athletes that were part of our team.

29:26And I'm not sure if in that particular example, those three things I talked to you about were present.

29:32I don't know if you were given clear direction and communicated about, you know, where we are, where we're going.

29:38I don't know if you.

29:39Oh, yeah.

29:40Coaches did.

29:40I don't know if they listened.

29:42The second one, though, I don't know if they really heard you and valued about what you had to say or if they were just trying to point.

29:49Well, probably not because youth sports.

29:51Yeah.

29:51Youth sports, no, because we didn't know what we didn't know.

29:54And they knew that they would just direct us.

29:56But my point was that, that the idea of trinkets and being nice.

30:02Yeah.

30:03Being a myth.

30:03That's, that's my complete myth with.

30:06So for leaders that are listening right now, what are, what are three, one, two, three, whatever you got, people first practices that they could implement tomorrow that would have needed impact?

30:18Well, I already talked about the continuous improvement huddle.

30:21Absolutely.

30:22Number one, the continuous improvement huddle.

30:25Another thing is what I call constructive accountability.

30:29And I can't emphasize this enough.

30:31Research shows that more than 80% of the workforce, when they hear the word accountability, it has negative connotations.

30:39And that's because it's used more as a club to beat people down instead of a ladder to lift them up.

30:49I have a mechanism and a process.

30:50Again, I don't want to go into too much detail for constructive accountability.

30:54That really, first of all, let's get clear on expectations.

30:59Smart goals is one way to do it.

31:01Whatever.

31:02Let's execute.

31:03And then when you get down to the point where you're saying, okay, where are we right now?

31:07If somebody isn't meeting the goal, you don't start beating up on them or meeting the task or whatever you say.

31:13What's getting in the way?

31:15What's getting in the way?

31:16Because I know I can count on you guys to do a good job.

31:19If you're not, something's getting in the way.

31:21Now, they may come up with a bullcrap kind of excuse, but at least we're trying to say, look, what's getting in the way?

31:27Why aren't you doing that?

31:29We can't count on you.

31:31Blah, blah, blah.

31:33Then we listen to what they have to say.

31:35We make adjustments.

31:36We renegotiate the agreement.

31:38Come around the second time.

31:40And the last thing you say is, what is it you need from me or anybody else on this team to make sure that you can live up to that commitment the next time?

31:49Because that kind of puts them on the spot, number one.

31:52Secondly, it says, we got your back.

31:54You're not alone.

31:55We're going to help you make sure this gets done.

31:58All of that is grounded in one phrase.

32:01Mason, I'll tell you of all the things that I've ever said in my presentations and I've written, this is the one that people find most impactful and most memorable.

32:08When the crap hits the fan and it will always treat people as the source of the solution, not the cause of the problem.

32:20Always treat people as a source of the solution, not the cause of the problem.

32:24Now, you tell me, why should they do that?

32:27Why should we do that?

32:27They often, they will respond.

32:31How do I phrase this?

32:32They will respond as you expect them to.

32:35If you expect them to, if you treat them like they're a problem, they will live up to that expectation.

32:40If you treat them as a solution, they're going to live up to that and self-fulfilling prophecy.

32:45Yeah, absolutely.

32:46And first of all, it gives them some agency, some way to deal with it.

32:51All right, let's talk about what do you, what, what's the solution here?

32:54And I'll tell you the biggest thing.

32:56It eliminates defensiveness.

32:59Nobody in the history of the world has ever done their best work when they're feeling defensive.

33:04Never.

33:04So yeah, go ahead.

33:06You're right on the money with that.

33:08So I also read a blog from yours years ago that the little light bulb went off and said, this is another reason why I need to call less.

33:17First one was, I remembered your culture tool.

33:20The second one is, I remember a blog you wrote years ago about the difference between preactive and proactive.

33:26Can you talk a little bit about that with our audience and tell them why you think it's helpful to know the difference?

33:31Yeah.

33:31Well, so I always try to use little word tricks to try and get people's heads wrapped around things.

33:37You know that from working with me.

33:40And so one point in time, I said, I'm not sure I really can tell the difference between being proactive and being active.

33:49But I do know what it means to be preactive.

33:52Prepare, predict, preempt, prevent, all of those good pre-words, which is really implicit in the word proactive.

34:00But if you think about it as being preactive, then you can actually get people's heads turned around.

34:07Because everybody says we need to create a safety mindset around here, right?

34:10I'm going to use safety as an example.

34:12You can't create a safety mindset just by talking with people and telling them safety is important or putting posters on the wall.

34:20You have to re-engage them in a conversation and a dialogue and a thought process about problem solving.

34:25And here's a very simple one.

34:29You do this for several weeks.

34:30Supervisors, managers go to employees and say, where are we going to have an accident or likely to have an accident next week?

34:38I mean, that completely shifts their mind.

34:40Whoa.

34:41Next week.

34:42Oh, well, let me see.

34:43You know what?

34:44We've got these cords running across the walkway here.

34:48That could cause somebody to trip.

34:50Or we have this way that we're processing the fluids from this machine that sometimes might fall on.

34:57Whatever.

34:59So the managers and supervisors gather all these ideas.

35:03They take them to a meeting.

35:04Let's just say Friday afternoon at 2 o'clock.

35:07What did you hear?

35:08List all those things.

35:09Look for common themes.

35:10And you pick one thing.

35:12You go back to everybody in the plant and you say, okay, here's the one thing we're going to focus on next week.

35:18Be on the lookout for it.

35:20Let us know if you see any hazard related to that.

35:23Let's take action on it.

35:24Now, good thing is all those other things that you talked about, what might happen next week, are bubbling in the back of their brain.

35:30The likelihood of that incident happening in the next week is almost zero.

35:35You do it again the next week.

35:37And the next week.

35:38And the next week for two or three months.

35:39Now, guess what?

35:41After three months, what's that doing to the mindset?

35:45They're focused.

35:45Doing to the mindset.

35:47They're focusing on what's going to possibly cause an accident next week or maybe tomorrow.

35:53You can do the same thing with quality.

35:56Where are we going to break down in quality?

35:58Next week.

35:59I like the sense of urgency because a friend of mine once told me, he said, and he runs a business, a very successful one.

36:08He told me, he said, people blow stuff off because they think, oh, there's just a one in a million chance that'll happen.

36:13Well, if you're in business and you do a large amount of transactions, that means after you hit a million transactions, it's going to happen once.

36:20Now, when that is, you don't know.

36:22But we want to be prepared, especially if that event is catastrophic.

36:25If you just think about that'll maybe not never happen, but there's a one in a million chance.

36:29But to take, like you said, the focus down to what could happen next week.

36:34Yeah.

36:34Now you're not talking about things that are one in a million and virtually impossible.

36:38It is not hypothetical.

36:40So I didn't mean to interrupt you.

36:42You talked about how the principle applies in quality improvement, quality control.

36:46Yeah.

36:46Same thing.

36:47You know, basically, where are we likely to have a quality breakdown next week?

36:51Same thing.

36:52So looking ahead, what timeless principles do you believe will only grow in importance over the next five, ten years?

36:58So, yeah, I don't know if it's going to grow.

37:00It's like it's always been there.

37:01You know, it's like, first of all, let's make sure that we're looking at systemic change when we're trying to engage people.

37:08What's systemic and substantive?

37:10And don't get caught up in the program trap.

37:12I really make sure that if we're interested in getting employees engaged, we're interested in engaging them in systematic continuous improvement.

37:19We're interested and committed to getting them supported and inspired to create a high-performance culture of trust by allowing them to do their best work and their best selves.

37:32I mean, anything that we can do in that regard.

37:35Those three imperatives that I told you about, what people want.

37:39They want to be informed.

37:40They want to be heard.

37:41They want to be valued.

37:42They want to have some control.

37:44Going to be increasingly important, I think, just as a recognition of human beings.

37:50I came up with the phrase a long time ago.

37:56And it may sound a little reductive, and I apologize if it does.

38:00But getting employees really totally engaged is as simple as A, B.

38:04A, they want to achieve, B, they will want to belong, C, they want to contribute.

38:10Anything you can do to really make people feel that they are able to satisfy those three driving needs is going to be critical.

38:22Constructive accountability.

38:23I cannot emphasize enough how important that has always been, is now, and always will be.

38:29And then I also have a model for organizational communication.

38:36Everybody knows it's really important, but there are some basic criteria for effective organizational communication that are critically important.

38:47Number one is kind of what I talked about before.

38:50It's interactive.

38:51You know, I always kind of joke with people when they say, well, we need around here is more two-way communication.

38:57You know what I say to them?

38:58What the hell of a kind is there?

39:00And they say, well, you know, we send out messages, and we put on presentations, and we do our town hall meetings, and we present stuff.

39:08And I'm saying, oh, you mean message distribution?

39:11I thought you were talking about communication.

39:13So that's one.

39:14We also have to understand that speed is important.

39:18Can't just, you know, do these orderly reviews.

39:21Let's make sure that people have the information they need spontaneously, immediately, when it's essential.

39:29We have to make sure that it is, let's see, what are some of the other key criteria?

39:34We have to have the right kinds of processes in place, the thing I was talking about before.

39:38We have to make sure that we are listening to the things that really matter most to people.

39:45So I actually have a seven-point model, and I'm kind of rambling a little bit around it right now.

39:50But I'm more than happy to share that with people as well.

39:53So those are some things that are going to be critical.

39:55I'm going to make sure that everyone knows how to get a hold of you and find you on the web and all that good stuff.

40:01I've got just a couple more questions for you quick.

40:03Yeah, sure.

40:04If a CEO came to you today and said, we're losing our best people, what should I do first?

40:09What would your answer be?

40:10Boy, I'm going to go back to my communication thing.

40:13You've got to listen, and you've got to listen in a variety of different ways.

40:17I mean, you can do surveys.

40:18You can do focus groups.

40:19You can do one-on-ones.

40:21We only find out, we do exit interviews sometimes in organizations to find out, why are you leaving?

40:26How often do we do stay interviews?

40:29Talk about that.

40:30Stay interviews.

40:31What is keeping you here now?

40:33What might keep you from staying here?

40:36And what can we do to make sure that you do stay here?

40:39Because we value you.

40:42That's a stay interview.

40:44Too often we wait until people are angry or walking out the door to say, oh my God, no.

40:50What can we do?

40:51And then we do all kinds of things to try and keep them, right?

40:54We say, oh, we'll be nice to you, or we'll give you this, or we'll give you more money, or whatever.

41:01And you know what people are thinking?

41:03Oh, crap.

41:04Yeah.

41:04And I can tell you a personal example.

41:08The woman who cuts my hair.

41:11You like the job she does?

41:12Yeah, I don't have that problem.

41:13The woman who cuts my hair worked for this one hairdresser for 20 years or so, and they kept cutting back on support things, like a helper to do the washing of the hair before she could actually do the cutting, and a variety of other things.

41:32I don't want to get into the details.

41:34But there were a whole bunch of things that she kept saying, well, why are you doing that?

41:39And, of course, she was a real high performer, and finally, she was looking around, and she found this other place that really had all of that stuff already built in.

41:48They didn't have to convince her.

41:50And so, as soon as she said, I'm leaving, guess what they said they would do?

41:54All that stuff.

41:55Everything she wanted.

41:57And you know what she said?

41:59Bullcrap.

42:00Goodbye.

42:00Yep.

42:02So, I know that you're a fan of big slogans.

42:08As you've so clearly communicated earlier about signs in the walls and stuff, if you could put just one sentence on every company wall, what would it be?

42:20Yeah, it's a tough one.

42:21I'm kind of torn, but I think I would have to default to the one I said before.

42:26Always treat people as a source of the solution, not the cause of the problem.

42:30Okay.

42:31Fair enough.

42:32Les, I really appreciate you.

42:34I've known you for a very, very long time, and I love your culture assessment.

42:38I thought it was ahead of its time when I first saw it, and I think the timing of it right now is probably excellent.

42:44Yeah.

42:45It can help a lot of businesses do a lot of good quickly without wasting time, talent, resources, or energy.

42:52I've had the privilege of seeing it, so I know it's very, very, very powerful and gives amazing focus.

43:00I appreciate all your wisdom.

43:01If people want to know about you and the work you do, what's the best way for them to connect with you or to find out more?

43:07Yeah, you know, I want to share a couple of quick things with you before we do that.

43:11One is this does not require a transformation engagement that, you know, creates a lot of burden, a lot of distraction.

43:20They're very simple things you can do, like the ones that I was talking about.

43:23So, take small steps that can really make a difference, but make sure that they are process-oriented, not one-off activities.

43:31The other thing that I want to do, because I think you actually talked about this in our conversation when we were preparing for this podcast.

43:39What kind of impact does this have on customers?

43:44And I want to share an example with one of my clients.

43:47It was a private duty in-home care service nationwide, but this was the St. Louis franchise of this nationwide organization.

43:55And when we implemented this stuff, and I'm going to grab this because I want to make sure I have the numbers right.

44:00They were having some problems with their core processes functioning, and their financial performance had been flat over several years.

44:08And after we implemented a lot of these activities that we're talking about, the result after one year, I'll give you some numbers.

44:16The revenue was up 14%.

44:18Profit was up 39%.

44:20Caregiver satisfaction scores went up from 79% to 93%.

44:27Client satisfaction scores went up from 83% to 91%.

44:33And this was all the result of this continuous improvement engagement model.

44:38Employees generated over 300 implemented improvements that resulted in those results, or that produced those results.

44:49And here's the thing I love about what the president said.

44:52I'll never forget this quote.

44:55She said, nothing ever goes fast enough for me.

44:58But if you had told me that we would get the kind of results we've gotten, the kind of engagement I've gotten from my team, the kind of performance that they're demonstrating in just six weeks, I would have never believed you.

45:09That's pretty cool.

45:10What size company was this?

45:11How many employees are we talking about?

45:13About 150.

45:15Okay.

45:15That's solid.

45:16So, how do people find, if they want to accomplish the same type of stuff, the same principles and whatnot, and they want to learn more about you, your books, website, what's the best way for them to connect with Les Landis?

45:30So, obviously, you can have my email address, which I will give to you.

45:36I don't have it on the screen, but it's Les Landis.

45:39And let me spell Landis because everybody gets it wrong.

45:42It's L-E-S-L-A-N-D-E-S at LandisAssociates.com.

45:49And you can always go on my website.

45:50There's just tons of information, ways to get connected with me on there as well.

45:54And that's just www.LandisAssociates.com.

45:58Are you active on LinkedIn?

45:59Yes.

46:00Not terribly.

46:01I do some stuff on LinkedIn, but not a lot.

46:04But usually, if somebody is trying to contact me by LinkedIn, I'll get a notification by email.