00:00Mr. Epstein and his death. So, you were not, obviously, at the MCC during that time, correct?
00:11Thanks.
00:13I thought you were giving it to me.
00:15I think I thought something blew up my nose.
00:17Just take some water, it's okay, no problem.
00:21You were not at the MCC during that time, correct?
00:24I was not.
00:25So, you're going to tell us what you believe, but I just want to make sure I understand your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen, and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew him, right?
00:43Actually, there's a third component.
00:44Okay.
00:45The answer to that is yes, and there's a third component, which is having experienced now the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
01:03From BOP.
01:03Yes.
01:04Okay, fair.
01:05Okay, so, you know, what I do want to be careful about is, you know, asking you to speculate, because anybody can do that, and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion.
01:23But, do you think that, the third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of, there's an OIG report, there's an STNY investigation about that.
01:39Do you, so you think he was, he was, he did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about?
01:45I do not believe he died by suicide, no.
01:47And do you believe that, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
01:55I, no, I don't.
01:57And I ask that because, if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail, or that he had kind of a list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him,
02:14why would somebody kill him, why would somebody kill him in prison?
02:18Well, in prison, where I am, they will kill you, or they will pay, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary.
02:45It's about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
02:50So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement, or the shortfallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
02:59Yes.
02:59Which is a little bit different than my question, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside what could happen on the inside,
03:12on the outside of prison, who would, who wanted him dead so badly that he would have, or she would have, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside?
03:22I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why, and I don't believe in the blackmail, or in any of this.
03:33I don't think Epstein had a hit on it like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.
03:40Yeah, so you're not, you don't have any reason, first hand knowledge, or even speculation it sounds like, to think that, um, that he was, that he was killed to kind of silence him,
03:54or to keep him from going public about people he, he knew about.
03:58I don't. No, because I, I, I think that is just part of the story that's been created, that started back in 2008, 9.
04:12Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's the point. Like, I, I don't want, I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's, there's been a lot of, there's a lot of information about what happened, you know, at the MCC, and, and, but what is important to me is,
04:24is whether, you know, if, if, is the idea that, that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing, but if, if, to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet,
04:39or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I, do you have any reason to believe that that's true?
04:46I do not, I have any reason to believe that, and I, I also think it's ludicrous, because if that, I also happen to think,
04:53if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.
04:57And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target.
05:07In the time, so, we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 2009-10, and then your, your, the time that, after Mr. Epstein was arrested,
05:16when's the last time you spoke with him?
05:28Maybe 2016, 2017, maybe 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017, in that area, I believe.
05:38And what, what, when you're thinking about that last time, was that, you had talked, been talking to him a lot, and then you stopped,
05:46or was that a one-off time, and it was infrequent at that point?
05:49I, I, I really wasn't in communication, the only communications I had with him was in, with regards to the civil suits,
05:56that, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in.
05:59I needed, I needed help, I needed information, and I, I didn't have what I needed, and, so, that was really what, it was,
06:13that what drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which I, ultimately, led to where I am today.
06:21And, so, when, when, when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that,
06:28I think he was, I thought he was angry with me anyway, he didn't like what I did, and he, I wasn't, wasn't interested in what he had to say to me, and.
06:36What, what, what did you think he was angry with you about?
06:38I think he was angry that I had even said that, uh, I had referred to, to her being a liar.
06:45He said I should have not said anything, but.
06:50Um, wouldn't,
06:51All right.
06:54All right.
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