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00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, editor of Forbes Women. 2025 has been a rather rough year

00:10for women, especially women in the workplace. At this point in December, we have seen nearly

00:16half a million women pushed out of the workplace entirely. And new reporting from McKinsey and

00:23Lean In show that fewer companies than ever before are supporting women's ambition. And they're also

00:30finding a bit of an ambition gap between men and women. Joining us to discuss these findings and

00:36also what she's seeing at her own organization is the CEO of Chief, Alison Moore. Alison, thank you

00:43so much for joining us. Thank you for having me, Maggie. So I framed this as kind of a rough year

00:49for women or women in the workplace. You run Chief, which is a terrific resource for senior

00:56executive women. How would you describe this year as it relates to women in the workplace or women

01:03in the C-suite? I think this year has been, has had no shortage of volatility, change, uncertainty,

01:14certainly in the world as we speak, but in the, in the space of business and creating, you know,

01:24trajectory for whatever business women leaders are running. It's been tumultuous. And I think when

01:30I think about the women in chief, when I think about the women in my own, you know, social circle,

01:35many of whom are in chief, some are not, the word that keeps coming back to me is resilience

01:40for women leaders. And, you know, the recognition that, you know, the tumult is, are things that

01:48we are going to have to always face as leaders. That's always been the case of any leadership role.

01:55There are things that are thrown in the way that it seemed to be a lot of things in the world right

02:00now that are causing change. There are things that are just crazy things that are going to shift

02:06the future of work dramatically. I think about AI and I think about what is happening just in the

02:12presence of AI or the, even the knowledge of a different kind of evolving presence of AI that

02:18has crossed so many different industries. It's all one common red thread across all. So, you know,

02:24it's just a juggling ball. It's a juggling ball for anyone in a leadership role for all the reasons that,

02:30you know, we've discussed in the past for women, it's just another added layer of volatility along

02:37with everything that comes from being a woman leader and the responsibilities at home, the

02:43responsibilities at, in their job, the responsibilities in their career track and what

02:49they have as aspirations for themselves. You have to add it all to the pot. And so you need to have

02:54a modicum of resilience, I think. Just a little bit. Now, one of the things that this new report

03:01from McKinsey and Lean In found is that fewer companies say that they are committed to promoting

03:08and advancing women's careers, or at least calling that a priority. About four or five years ago,

03:14some 90% of companies said, yes, absolutely. Diversity, equity, inclusion, women's advancement,

03:20this is a priority. That number has dropped to just a bit above 50%, which I think and suspect

03:27reflects the political climate that we're in a little bit. But in talking to the women who are

03:33chief members, have you talked to them about employee resource groups or mentoring groups or things

03:39they're doing within their own workplaces to support women? And do you have a sense that those

03:44types of efforts have taken a hit this year? Yeah. So two parts of that. From the women-in-chief,

03:50I think there's always been a recognition for, you know, women leaders who gather together and in

03:56conversation and leading teams of younger women, more junior women, that you, there, those sort of

04:02informal networks of promoting and supporting and pushing together and, you know, pulling,

04:08pulling up something from the ground up, that, that is a constant mindset. You know, a lot of

04:15conversations in chief around mentoring, a lot of conversations around, you know, helping connect

04:19folks to interviewing. So whether it's for mentoring for, you know, more junior folks or even

04:25colleague-wise, you know, folks in job transition, there's just more, I think, of a very centered effort

04:35to help and create those networks for help and, and for coordination and collaboration. So that,

04:43that is, I think, present. And I think that spirit has gotten even higher in what have been some,

04:49you know, changes in the business landscape with respect to the declared state of support for women

04:58in, you know, as you were mentioning in development programs. I see there are changes that have

05:06happened there, but in many ways, I think it follows the bell curve. There are companies that

05:11perhaps did not want to be investing that much in support for women executives or support for other

05:17kinds of groups executives. And I think they've decided that they are no longer going to do that.

05:22And then that's their decision. I would say that's a smaller group of people. Frankly, that's not,

05:27those are not organizations that we interface with. There are a lot of organizations, I think about

05:32Elf, I think about Costco, I think about others that are embracing and doubling down on investment for

05:38women leaders and women executives. And that is happening too. The lion's share, I think, of companies

05:43that are in this, you know, thinking about, and perhaps, you know, did say to that report,

05:50we're not backing women specifically, but we are still backing, you know, development programs in

05:57which women are supported. And I think it's the, my question is like, what is the original question?

06:04You know, what are the nuances behind the answers? And for us, we have tons of corporate partners that we

06:12sit down at the table and think about, okay, what are your objectives this year? And how can we co-create

06:17something that meets your objectives to support the women leaders and the executives that you're

06:22seeing in your company? So I think it's a diverse patchwork of answers and maybe not as monolithic

06:27as it was a couple of years ago when it was one big rousing answer.

06:33That's a fair point. And any sort of career development program that is offered to an entire

06:37workforce will by nature benefit women, but you also mentioned kind of the informal networking

06:44and mentorship that can happen. So what's your sense of how important that type of informal

06:50networking is for someone's career path? I think it's deeply important. And I think it's

06:57deeply important for women. And intrinsically, it's always, you know, women who are in leadership

07:00positions, 15, 20 years of experience, they've gone through this already. Women are less apt to

07:07have sponsors in companies. You know, in many ways, you get sponsorship from the people in the

07:12rungs above you that often look like you, you know, and this is well known in the dynamics of human

07:19behavior. And I think there are women do get fewer sponsors. And fewer sponsors or like less sponsor

07:27backing, I will say does affect, you know, it can make it a little harder to make, get a promotion.

07:32It does perhaps make you more subjected to less job security. You know, there are, there are

07:38consequences of that. You don't get the juicy kind of stretch assignments and you don't get the kind of

07:44anointment to kind of push yourself. So in that sphere that I think has always been something that

07:50women in companies and in corporations and women executives have worked against, there is this

07:56more informal tagging, right? There is an informal understanding. And I have always felt this at

08:02every company I've been through, you know, HBO, NBC Universal, like, you know, there, there's a

08:07women's networking, looking out for promoting, pushing, not at the crazy advancement of others,

08:15but just in the recognition that some people, there might be a different kind of like shoulder to lean

08:20and on and, and, and thinking about that in terms of mentorship or your junior teams or your colleagues

08:26that might be struggling. Like it's just an informal network and it, I think it can be very powerful.

08:31So I think women do give a little more space to that because we've had to.

08:37That's a very good point. It, it bubbles up informally almost everywhere, almost regardless of

08:45what year we're in. Yeah. I want to move to the idea of ambition because this, uh, women in the

08:54workplace report has some, the headline findings are that there is a gap in ambition as defined by

09:02the search for a promotion between women and men. And I just want to read a few statistics from this

09:07study. The most, and this comes directly from McKinsey and lean in the gap is most pronounced at the

09:14entry and senior leader leader levels where 69% of entry level women want to promotion versus 80% of

09:23entry level men. 84% of senior level women want to be promoted versus 92% of men, senior level men.

09:33So Alison, what do you make of that data? And again, the, there's probably nuance in the question.

09:40I have no idea how many years the women polled have been in their position. And if someone has

09:47just gotten a promotion, I can imagine saying, no, I don't want a promotion. I just got one this

09:52year. I need another year under my belt. Or if it was, you know, I would have to pull up the appendices

09:57to see how this was worded, but just in general, what do you make of the gap that this data found?

10:02Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great nuggets in that, in that report. And I, I certainly

10:09can appreciate the question and the, and, and, you know, how they were kind of getting around that,

10:17that point. But I, I honestly don't think it tells the whole story. And in fact, when it,

10:22when ambition is measured strictly inside corporate structures, which have its own sort of,

10:27you know, ecosystem, and then also defined by solely this idea of a desire for promotion.

10:35Yeah. There is a gap between men and women, but then, you know, if you widen that lens, it, it's,

10:42the gap is not ambition between men and women per se. It's ambition and how it's defined.

10:47And I, and that, you know, for us, we are seeing a much more expansive definition of what ambition

10:54means for women today and a more modern take on it. And I think what, what the report assumes is that

11:03the ambition can only be defined through a linear ladder climb in which promotion to the next hierarchical

11:10rung is the, the best next step. And if you are not wanting that, for instance, but perhaps you are

11:19looking for a lattice move, that's what we call it, you know, across a different division, same industry,

11:27different, you know, same title, different industry, different company. It doesn't account for that

11:31mobility of, that comes from what an oftentimes is a woman defining her own career track, like a more

11:40personalized career track versus this linear ladder climb. And that was the thing that just didn't sit

11:47true to us at chief based on, you know, what I see in the chief membership for sure, but also based on

11:54a survey that we did, you know, which actually asked the question beyond the ladder and trying to look,

12:00okay, we, you know, the quintessential framework is the ladder climb. Well, what's underneath that?

12:06And that was a set of research that we did a couple months ago before this research came out

12:11from McKinsey, um, with women leaders and women chief leaders and found something very different.

12:15And 86% of the female leaders that we queried in this research, and we did with Harris Poll,

12:20uh, say that they are more ambitious than five years ago. And when you just think about that,

12:26and then you juxtapose that with the, the report coming from McKinsey, I, I, the McKinsey report

12:34reflects corporate America dynamics with a broad, broad brush in my view, you know, and again,

12:39through the prism of, of promotion only, but truthfully, you know, the, the space for women

12:46leaders, you know, there have been so many more options over the last five years. I mean,

12:50I would actually say the last 10 years, you know, um, for women, um, in terms of different kinds

12:57of job modes. And these are for senior women leaders. So solopreneurs, investors, portfolio

13:02careers, I mean, shoot content creators. I, I can't even imagine jumping out of my job to be a content

13:08creator. That would be a terrible day for everybody involved if I did, uh, not having those skills,

13:13but fractionals, you know, we're very different than consultants. You're coming in at a precision

13:18layer at top levels and you're utilizing this wealth of experience you've had from behind.

13:22So that, that playing field has changed. And those are the things that dynamic and taking advantage of

13:29it is what's contributing to these 86% of female leaders who say I'm more ambitious because I see

13:34more opportunities for me to grab, grab the wheel, have a personal trend, you know, career track,

13:40have more agency, um, over what it is that I do and, and how I kind of run my career and more control.

13:49Um, a lot of benefits come from that. So no, you know, no environment, corporate and, or solopreneur,

13:54everything has its hardships and its ups and downs. I mean, that's, as my grandmother used to say,

13:59that's why they call it work. Um, but I, I think to look at it as that one environment and make this

14:06broad statement that women are no longer ambitious is, it's not the full picture.

14:12Now the Harris polling or the collaboration that chief did with Harris polling found that women

14:21rank financial success, decision-making power, time and flexibility, autonomy, and agency above job

14:29titles, which I think parlays almost exactly into what you were just saying. So can you talk a little

14:36bit more about how ambition showed up in your own research and how you think of ambition as it

14:41relates to women's careers? Yeah, I, you know, I think when we unpacked the data and looked at,

14:49it just, it, it, it sent a, um, it gave a sense of optimism, I would say in, in this, in the great field

14:59that we already talked about of chaos and change and the unknown in the future of work. And, you know,

15:0596% of the women that we surveyed had made bold career moves navigating major transitions. And 71%

15:13of those people had made that, those big changes by choice. You know, the, the usual thing when you

15:20hear about women, particularly senior women stepping out of careers is that they were forced out and

15:24there, you know, there's definitely a lot of changes going on, you know, uh, just in the landscape of

15:30everything with the economy and everything that's happening again with AI. And as you get to the tippy

15:36top of roles, that air gets a little thin up there. So there, I, I certainly want to acknowledge that

15:41there are people who have moved out of those and made transitions, not by choice, but with 71% saying it

15:47was by choice. I think, uh, that was a very interesting stat and surprised me. And I think the other piece that

15:53was very surprising to me, which leads to your question is that 92% of the women said that they feel

15:59emboldened, not scared to create their own career paths. Like, I don't know that we would have seen

16:06those, that kind of data a few years ago. And there is something about this combination of different work

16:12types that align with what, where we've, we've seen as a, as a, you know, business culture, if you will, over the

16:18last 10 years, and then also the kind of cognizance of what the future of work might bring. There is

16:24this, you know, there is this disruption, but it does bring opportunity. And I, I think women are

16:32seeing this reacting to disruption, seeing future disruption. And instead of putting their head

16:39under the sand, they are saying this actually might be an opportunity. And I feel pretty excited

16:43about it because the last stat I'll just share with you is 83% of the women that we talked to

16:50agree that the playbook they were handed 20 years ago, no longer suits. And so I, you know,

16:57certainly there are, there are, there are women who, you know, I think would, and we, we have many of

17:05these women in chief, they are stay within corporate. They have full plans of being within corporate and

17:09navigating within corporate, but even the toolbox that you have to navigate corporate is different

17:14today. And in addition to that, there are other opportunities outside of corporate that are rich and

17:23robust and utilize all the leadership experience that you have accrued over time. And that is exciting to

17:32women, not daunting.

17:34I have so many follow-up questions. I want to start with the toolbox that you referenced. How

17:39what is the one or maybe two biggest ways that the toolbox for women navigating the corporate

17:46ladder, the corporate landscape, how has that changed in the last five to 10 years in your view?

17:52I think, um, and being a, being a person of a certain age, I think there was always this perception

17:57that you could get into a corporate environment and, you know, again, back to the ladder, um, image,

18:03you know, you step in the wrong, you do the good work people, you know, you work hard,

18:08you get recognized, you move up. And truthfully, you know, that conveyor belt of assumption has not

18:16really always been true for women. Um, some of that have been changes in the landscape and in,

18:23you know, the business landscape. But when you think about the idea that most often a woman's sort of

18:32life intercedes with her career plans track, right? So there are childbearing years. And frankly, there

18:40are childbearing and caring years, right? And then there are frankly, parent caring years. And as soon as

18:48you leave one, you kind of end up in the other. And those responsibilities lie, and I can say this

18:54broadly, disproportionately with women. There are certainly many examples of men doing, you know,

19:00balancing the same thing. But if you looked at it on a chart, I would say it was predominantly women

19:04that kind of balanced those two pieces. And so these realities have become even more, I think, acute

19:12in COVID and post COVID areas, right? So looking at that, what does that tell us for the toolbox?

19:20You must be, you may have the intention to stay somewhere for a very long time.

19:27I'm not sure you can always assume that the company will keep you there for a long time.

19:33No animus, not antagonism, just reality. And so in the face of that, what is it that you do for

19:41Maggie Inc., Alison Inc., to widen your toolbox outside of just doing an incredible kick-ass job,

19:48which you should do, because everyone should be bringing their kick-ass job, sorry, I probably

19:52shouldn't be cursing, to the job. But what it makes me think of is, you know, don't be afraid of

20:02being of bold moves. You know, think about when you're in a corporate environment, think about

20:07the places that you've been doing this for a long time. What if I worked on this other division?

20:11I cross-trained across lots of different places. Part of it was a curiosity. Part of it was a hunger to

20:19do some new things. And I always brought whatever I was just doing into that new space. You know,

20:24so opening up mindsets to those bold changes. Recognize what I said earlier, that disruption

20:29provides opportunity. And so what does that mean for you? When you look at the toolbox, what can you

20:33open your doors to more readily to get you better trained and ready for what's coming next? Because we

20:40don't know. And, you know, I, I think networking, and networking in, in a business sphere. So I'm a

20:48mother, I have lots of friends that I met through my daughter's school. Those are, those are my mama

20:54friends, many of them work, some of them don't. But when I think about networking, and for business for

21:00Allison Inc, I'm thinking about other women in other businesses that I'm just learning and curious,

21:04you know, curiously figuring out and learning from them. You know, and I think that is when I say

21:10changing the toolbox, that's what I mean, like opening up the aperture about what it is that you

21:15need for you as a business leader and climbing your own career track. What does that mean today? As

21:21opposed to just assuming that you jump on the conveyor belt and it, it moves as long as you do a good

21:26job. I just, I think the story is a little more complicated than that. What you're describing is

21:32actually having an entrepreneurial spirit, even if you are within a corporate ladder,

21:36in my view, that's how I would. I agree. I absolutely agree with that. Yeah. And I think

21:41that that is something that was, and my probably just, you know, based on my age, I think that

21:47language was thrown out many years ago, like an entrepreneurial spirit, an innovator in the, you

21:52know, in, in, in the corporate environment. I think all that's true, but I don't know that women

21:58were creating new toolboxes with that spirit. They were maybe imbuing that spirit mentally,

22:03but when you turn that into action, you may have to act, move, think a little bit differently in

22:11order to imbue that benefit of the entrepreneurial spirit back to yourself. The other follow-up question

22:19I had based on what you said a few minutes ago, that 70% who've chosen to, to make a big leap or to,

22:25to make a change. We've talked a little bit about the growth of AI, the tumultuous economy,

22:30the growth of the creator industry. Is it any one of these things that you think is spurring

22:37people to make big changes, or is it just the, the alchemy of everything kind of happening and

22:43maybe having the example of other women who've struck out on their own and, and instead of having

22:48just one job in corporate, they are a consultant, they are an author, and they've become

22:53a content creator. And through those three lenses have three different income streams now.

23:00Yeah, I, it's a great point. I think some of it is just, um, a reflection on

23:06the, the behaviors are already starting, which are, you know, they are thinking of themselves as

23:14Maggie Inc., Allison Inc., and what else am I doing? So they are doing portfolio things,

23:18even if they're in seat in a job, right? They're maybe an investor, they're sitting on a board.

23:23Um, I think, so that, that idea is opening up, um, mindsets a little bit more. I think, um,

23:32there's not, I don't see, we don't see like one, everyone's becoming a content creator. It's just,

23:37to your point, the field has opened up and the myth of playing it safe has, you know, kind of started

23:46to erode, which in an exciting way, um, women are getting, I think, and women leaders particularly

23:52are getting more crisp on the, the reasons that they want to create change and, and for them,

23:59for their career track, and in many ways, these are big, big, big reasons of change. Not because

24:04I'm looking for a bigger title or more salary, everyone will take more salary, but looking for,

24:08like, whatever, um, corporate accolades, what they're looking for is growth, meaningful impact,

24:18value alignment, right? Autonomy, like you were mentioning. These are, these are big drivers,

24:25you know, with like financial and title change coming actually on the back end, which is interesting

24:31to me because I think that that is just a reflection societally of what, and, and, and again, I,

24:39where we have come and in many ways, I don't, I see that as a, as a sort of raw optimism.

24:49I mean, in the face of chaos, I mean, understandably, and it's not optimism, like,

24:53wow, it's, you know, everything seems so easy now. No, it is optimism with the very simple term is,

25:00I can, and in many ways, the optimism of saying, I can do this, that's half the battle.

25:08You led right into what I was planning to be my, my final question, which is seeing the data from

25:16McKinsey, but from your own polling with Harris, do you have predictions for women's employment or

25:22advancement in 2026? Do you think we will see more solopreneurs? Do you think we will see more

25:29women redefining ambition in their own terms? Have you thought about what next year could bring

25:35as it relates to executive women, senior women? Yeah, I, you know, if you take this, the idea that

25:42the average woman leader now holds the three professional identities, some of what we just

25:47talked about, and the idea that, and the response we've had from this, you know, kind of clarion call

25:59for chief and the sort of, you know, in the partnership with Harris, but it was also just

26:03this idea that, you know, women's careers are never linear and being okay to say that,

26:08in that the recognition that success is, does not only have to be defined by a linear path,

26:14you know, and again, that can be linear in the same job in corporate, you can go to other corporate

26:19places, or it could be this sort of other mix of solopreneur, entrepreneur, that kind of thing,

26:23but whatever, wherever field you're playing in, it's multi-dimensional, and it has, you know,

26:30with the two or three to more identities in your professional identity, it's portfolio-based,

26:35and so I think we will, and then you, you, so you, you pair that optimism, that mindset,

26:40that idea that I can, along with a business environment that, you know, is a compendium of

26:50corporate, executive, small business, founders, solopreneurs, fractionals, it just becomes this

26:57different prism, I think, and then you see the future of work is changing, and we don't know

27:03where it's changing to, and whether it's AI, or whether it's, you know, economic environments,

27:07whether it is generational shifts and change, all we know is that the volatility seems endless,

27:13and so you put those kind of three buckets together, I think you will see more women to

27:19be emboldened to create their own career path more than ever before, and again, wherever that might be,

27:28corporate, solopreneur, independent, or otherwise, I think that you'll see more of that into next year,

27:35too, and I think that the thing that will be the undergirding part of that is that how do I,

27:39how do I make my toolbox much more robust for me in the field of that, and that's, I do think,

27:47it's not networking, it's networks. Networks are the next power source for, you know, next year and

27:55beyond. Women collaborating with other women leaders, thinking about new ideas, excited about,

28:01you know, fueling their own ambition. Yeah, 94% of the women that we queried said that being around

28:07other ambitious women fuels their own ambitions, ambitious ambition, you know, proving that boldness

28:15is courageous, and so if you're taking leaps and bounds, like these networks, these power sources

28:20to kind of like soak up what's happening, and then go out and create your path, I think it's just going

28:26to be, you're going to see more of that into next year and beyond, particularly in the face with AI

28:30and technology, and it's just, it's a, that human connection is that counterbalance to what is,

28:36you know, invariably, it's coming, it's not, we're not stopping, and in fact, we have to embrace a lot

28:40of the AI and technology pieces, obviously, as leaders, it's part of my thinking every day, but what's

28:46the counterbalance, and those power sources will be good to feed sort of journeys for women, I think,

28:52next year and beyond. I love the idea that ambitious is, ambition is contagious. Allison Moore, CEO of

29:00Chief, thank you so much for joining us, we so appreciate your time and your insights. Thank you

29:05so much, Maggie, for having me, I appreciate it.

Is There Actually An Ambition Gap Between Women And Men?

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