00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now
00:07is my colleague, Justin Conklin, the Deputy Director of Editorial Operations. Justin,
00:12thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me.
00:15It is a huge day. If you are a Swifty, Taylor Swift's latest album just dropped,
00:20The Life of a Showgirl. And you've lifted before for Forbes the curtain on the pop mogul.
00:25She's a billionaire who continues to be part of the zeitgeist.
00:28And even if you were on social media last night, you saw people waiting in anticipation for
00:34midnight for this album to drop. People were live streaming their reactions as they were
00:37listening to this. People are breaking them down. People have been figuring out what Easter eggs are
00:43where for the past months and really for the past years, ever since Taylor Swift became an artist.
00:48I mean, why do you think and how is she able to stay so relevant even when she's had a career
00:53that has spanned now close to 20 years? Well, I think a lot of things go into it,
00:58right? So she's reinvented herself so many times. I think part of that was stemmed in
01:03the fear of being replaced by the music industry. So she had to keep being something new with each
01:08new album release. At the same time, she's come across as relatable, especially across her social
01:13media presence. And she's given people music that's granted the permission to feel their
01:17emotions and kind of, in the words of Dr. Ramsey from Penn State Berks, who taught a course on
01:23Taylor Swift, giving people the vocabulary to know what they were feeling. She's also extremely
01:31relatable outside of her music. And I know that's hard to imagine with a billionaire celebrity. But if
01:38you think about some of the celebrities that you see in paparazzi photos, they're wearing like
01:42$8,000 t-shirts, right? I'm never going to be able to afford that. But if you take a look at Taylor,
01:47especially from this past summer, you might see her in a dress that retails for around $200.
01:53That's affordable. That's relatable. People could buy that dress if they like it
01:57and kind of emulate Taylor Swift's style in that way.
02:01And the things that she talks about in her songs are extremely relatable.
02:05It doesn't matter if you're a billionaire like Taylor Swift or you're just an everyday person.
02:10I mean, you can relate to things like heartbreak, like friendship changes, things like that. And
02:16I want to get to that point of reinventing herself because sometimes artists do that and it's not as
02:22successful. I mean, when you look at Taylor Swift, she started out in country. She's every album has a
02:28different flavor to it. How do you think she's able to reinvent herself so well? And why do you think
02:35people resonate with that so much? Why do you think people don't get sick of her yet? Because
02:40I mean, every year she's released a new album in the past couple of years. She went on that massive
02:45Eros tour. She is continuously a major cultural touchpoint. I mean, her appearance on the New
02:53Heights podcast with her now fiance, Travis Kelsey and his brother smashed records. Why can't people get
02:59enough? I think it goes back to the, you know, relatability. I think that it's not necessarily
03:07about the genre of music that she's currently putting her records in or through. It's the words
03:13that she's using and the feelings and emotions that she's expressing and the scenarios that she's
03:17painting with words, with her songs, with her lyrics that people are resonating with. They're
03:23seeing themselves in pieces of Taylor that she's chosen to share with her audience.
03:29And how do you think specifically that reinvention has helped her bottom line because she's a
03:35billionaire? She is. I mean, it doesn't hurt, right? Like, you know, that with each new album,
03:43you're going to get something completely different and something completely unexpected. And I think
03:47that life of the showgirl is no different. We just had a double album anthology release with
03:53the torture poets department, which was kind of depressing, you know, if we're being completely
03:59honest. And this one is the antithesis of that. It's poppy, it's bright, it's fun, and it's
04:06quick. So I think people are going to be able to listen to this on repeat and not get bored
04:10of it anytime soon.
04:11I want to touch on her fan base a little bit. The Swifties are extremely loyal. If you were
04:15scrolling on social media last night leading up to midnight, or even this morning and beyond,
04:20people were waiting up for the album release. They're listening to it right at midnight.
04:24They're recording their reactions. Some videos, people were recording themselves crying, talking
04:29about the album as they were listening to it in real time. I mean, she generates this fierce
04:35allegiance with her fans. They consistently shell out a large amount of money for merch,
04:40for the album. The air tour tickets were not cheap. They're constantly looking out for Easter
04:46eggs that could or could not be in her music, in her social media, in other marketing, and seeing
04:52what that means, trying to predict the future for Taylor Swift. How lucrative do you think
04:57this really rabid fan base is for her bottom line?
05:01I mean, very, right? If people weren't going to her shows, weren't buying whatever merchandise
05:06she's dropping, weren't buying the records and all the variants, she wouldn't be a billionaire.
05:14I would point out that her billionaire status really came about because of the air was tour.
05:19It grossed over $2 billion in ticket sales alone. And fans were spending an average of around $900
05:26to travel to these shows and dropping around $50 on average for merchandise. And a lot of people did
05:32that multiple times.
05:34And I mean, I saw things on social media of fans going around the world, leaving the country,
05:41making an international trip out of seeing Taylor Swift. Forbes pegged her as a billionaire in October
05:47of 2023. So just two years ago, how was she able to reach that status just through her music? Because
05:53when you think about ultra wealthy artists, I'm thinking of Selena Gomez, I'm thinking of Rihanna,
05:58they all they have different companies like Fenty, like Rare Beauty. Taylor Swift, it seems has just made
06:04this on her music alone.
06:07Yeah, she became a billionaire with a combination of cash earned through touring and selling merch,
06:12movie tickets, things like that, and the value of her music catalog that she now owns.
06:17When it comes to Taylor Swift, I think it's really important to remember that the product
06:20that she's selling is Taylor Swift. I don't really see her creating something that isn't music or arts
06:25related. Do I need a Taylor Swift branded tequila? No. Would I buy it? Probably. I mean,
06:31it would be very aesthetically pleasing.
06:33To that point, though, I think a lot of celebrities from what you see, do we need an X branded this
06:41product? The answer is no, but they'll still put their face all over it. And Taylor Swift doesn't
06:47do that. Do you think that's really helpful to her brand?
06:50I think so. 100%. I think any merchandise that she releases, I'm thinking specifically about like
06:56the cardigans that she released along, you know, with her with her albums. It's more about the
07:01aesthetic. It's more about the vibe. It's more about the feeling. And it's not so much about
07:06putting her image on that thing. It's about making that thing a part of her world.
07:13And I think something that you said about Taylor Swift at the beginning of this conversation
07:17is her relatability. And people relate to these lyrics. I mean, once again, if you scroll on social
07:24media, you're seeing people dissect those lyrics and kind of put them and compare them to their own
07:30lives. And it seems like whenever Taylor Swift releases an album, you almost get a window into
07:36her life. Like you said, the tortured poets department, that's was a different vibe than
07:41this one. You can tell that she's in a really fun era of her life. It might not be as serious as
07:48folklore or another album like that. This seems really fun, really light. What do you think the
07:54life of a showgirl will ultimately do for her fortune? I think it's only going to increase it.
08:00I mean, she's she's already released around nine different vinyl variants. The cardigan comes along
08:07with the CD and that's going to bump her unit sales as well. And so I think we're just going to see her
08:12continue her trajectory of of more. I think that the majority of her earnings in the future is going
08:19to come from her music that she's she now owns. She owns all of her masters. And I think if she
08:25goes on tour again, that's going to hit big numbers. Taylor Swift has been really part of the national
08:30dialogue for almost 20 years. People love her. People have criticized her music. We have a really
08:37interesting perch at Forbes looking at the money component of Taylor Swift, as well as Taylor Swift,
08:43the celebrity. As a fan of her music, what do you think from the position you're in at Forbes, knowing
08:49the money component behind it? What do you think is missing from the national and really international
08:54conversation when it comes to Taylor Swift? I think we need to focus less on whether we like her or hate
09:03her and really appreciate the businesswoman that she is and the acumen that she brings to her business
09:09because at the end of the day, Taylor Swift is a incredibly smart businesswoman. She went after
09:14her masters. She re-recorded all of the masters that she was missing to essentially devalue the ones
09:23that were sold out from underneath her. And so at the end of the day, she decided she was going to win
09:28and she did. To that point, what type of businesswoman do you think Taylor Swift is?
09:33I think she's incredibly savvy. I think she has given us a masterclass time and time again
09:38on not accepting the answer that's given to her if she doesn't like it. She was not afraid to pull
09:44her music off Spotify when she felt that artists weren't being paid an appropriate amount of money
09:48for streaming. She re-recorded her masters when they were sold out from underneath her
09:53and essentially devalued someone else's investment. And so I think she's very protective
09:59of what is hers and I think rightly so. And I know that she just went on that massive
10:06ERA's tour recently. Do you think we're going to see any type of stadium tour, perhaps
10:12in ERA's another round with the life of a showgirl?
10:15I'm not sure what to expect. I mean, if you pay attention to what's happening on the internet
10:21and TikTok, creators are definitely speculating about what's next for her. I've seen rumors
10:26that she's going to have a Vegas residency or perhaps a show at the Sphere. I don't think
10:32we're going to see a tour until after she's married. I think the ERA's tour was incredibly
10:37long and incredibly well done. And she herself has said in interviews that she doesn't want
10:42to go on tour again unless she can do it incredibly well.
10:46Justin Conklin, I appreciate your insight here. Thank you so much for joining me.
10:51Thanks so much for having me.
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