How Formula 1 Helps This Sports Investor Turbocharge His Business

Forbes

António Caçorino, the CEO and cofounder of Apex, sat down with Forbes to detail how Apex leverages its unique community of over 100 athlete investors—who act as active Limited Partners providing network and industry insights—to strategically deploy capital.  Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/justinbirnbaum/2025/12/10/investment-firm-apex-is-raising-350-million-to-target-european-sports-assets/  0:00 Introduction 0:15 What Is Apex's Investment Strategy?  02:03 Venture and Private Equity Strategies in Sports  04:11 The Modern Athlete Investor 07:48 The Strategic Value Athletes Bring 09:15 Why F1 Drivers Are Flocking to Apex 12:48 Assessing Sports Valuation Growth 18:35 F1 Revenue Streams and Future Investment Targets  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00I'm Justin Birnbaum, a staff writer at Forbes. Joining me today is Antonio Caccarino,

00:08the CEO and co-founder of Apex. Antonio, thanks for being here today.

00:12Thank you very much. It's a true honor.

00:14So Apex was founded five years ago. You have over 100 athletes invested with you guys. You

00:19also are invested in a slew of sports properties like the Alpine F1 team,

00:23Venezia FC in Italy, Bay City Golf Club, Tomorrow Sports, Baller League. Walk me through

00:29things here. What is the strategy? How did you guys kind of get started and what are you trying to

00:33accomplish? Yeah, it's what you're saying. The origin is exactly on a very unique athlete

00:41community that we thought we could build and getting them together to invest in sports.

00:47Today we are a sports investment manager like many others. We have definitely our kind of DNA and

00:53a couple of things that make us different and athletes are one of them. They are

00:59active LPs in our network that contribute beyond their money and their commercial value in our

01:06investments. They bring their network, they bring their industry insights. I think that broad community

01:12of athletes gives us quite a different way of looking at sports, of diligencing opportunities

01:17and adding value once we invest. Our European routes make us different as well. I would say most

01:23the kind of leading sports investors out there are US-based, even if they globally deploy. We are

01:31rooted out of Europe and I think that makes us quite different, particularly once investing and

01:37deploying in Europe, but also having a kind of an international set of eyes when we look at the US.

01:42And I think thirdly, the fact that we're really born out of the sports industry. So we're not an

01:47investment management business that was doing other sectors and then kind of decided to focus in

01:51sports. We were born to deploy in sports. And I think that kind of genesis is also quite different

02:01compared to others out there. Amid all these sports properties, you operate in both venture and also

02:06on the private equity side. I'm curious kind of if you could explain the delineation between those two.

02:11How do both sides of those strategies work? So we first started on the venture side.

02:16Yeah. Our first set of investors were the athletes themselves. So that was really what

02:21I wanted to prove that we could bring the athletes along and they could invest with us. Obviously,

02:27for the fact that we were working only with athletes, the ticket sizes were a bit on the smaller

02:32side. So it just made sense to look at the early stage opportunities, you know, smaller tickets,

02:37but where we could also be relevant in the cap tables and add value from the beginning.

02:41Yeah. So we started to look at sports venture, sports tech. And it was also we were privileged

02:49with timing. So it was really also when kind of the private equity movement began and definitely

02:54you started to have different kind of ownership at sports properties. So obviously, sports tech

02:58and innovation in sports is fundamental for those properties to be run efficiently and just better

03:03as a whole. So that also really gave much more a bigger opportunity for to focus in the venture

03:10side. So that's what we decided to do. And then obviously growing and growing the type of investors

03:16and the capital and their management. And just we started to look at the growth in private equity

03:19side of things as well and started to look at teams, leagues, IP, commercial rights, et cetera.

03:24Now, today, one thing that I really like, and again, also makes us different is the fact that we have

03:30both a venture and kind of a growth in private equity arms and how those two coexist. At the end of the

03:34day, having one of the strongest sports VCs, VC funds out there makes us a better invest in the

03:42private equity side. Because every time we're looking at something, we can definitely bring in

03:45that technology, that innovation, then enhancing how we add value. And the same way that we can always

03:50bring bigger clients and clients to our sports tech businesses, right? So when we find a founder

03:54that we like, that has a good idea, that has developed a nice product, but they want to roll it out in

04:00the sports industry. And obviously we can bring that network. And if we're invested, then obviously

04:06that makes it makes it even easier. So that ecosystem works really, really nicely together.

04:11So you mentioned obviously like dealing with athletes and starting out kind of

04:15more on kind of the early stage side, you know, smaller tickets. What are the tickets generally

04:19sit at now? What's the investment size? What kind of timelines do you look at? Because obviously

04:22if you're investing in sports teams, it's a much different timeline that you can normally operate on,

04:26whether it's venture or private equity. But curious, investment size, timeline returns,

04:30what are you guys targeting overall? Actually, when it comes to times,

04:34I would say we look at it quite similarly. So both our funds have a 10-year horizon.

04:41I think sports needs time. I think it's a mistake to have the pressure to kind of want to exit

04:48a little bit earlier than you should. I think the industry as a whole is still very, very nascent

04:52when it comes to institutional capital and professionalization around investors. So we look

04:57at it actually quite similarly. Obviously, in terms of ticket sizes, it's completely different. So our

05:01venture fund, we normally invest 1 to 2 million. So it's really early stage. So seed and series A,

05:08where we target around 5% to 10% ownership of the businesses.

05:12Yeah. On the growth private equity side, we'll invest anything from 10 up to 50 million. And there,

05:20we're targeting, I would say that the core focus there is strategic minority. So anything from 20% to

05:2745%, where we obviously have the right governance to add value on the commercial side, on the business

05:36side, on the media side, potentially, but not necessarily run the day to day.

05:39We're in the age of the athlete investor. So you think about like, for example, like you guys working with

05:44athletes, it's not uncommon in the sense that, you know, athletes want to find different ways to deploy

05:49their capital. They earn so much these days, they want to make their money go to work for them. I'm curious,

05:54you know, having this giant community of athletes, you've shown demonstrated success in terms of

05:58bringing them in and also kind of, you know, adding nuance to the table. What specifically do you bring the

06:03athlete investor? Why are they so interested and gravitating to you so much?

06:08I think the fact that we're not providing them a service, the fact that we're not a wealth manager,

06:13a financial advisor makes us a little bit different. At the end of the day, what we're

06:18telling them is we're sports GP and they should be, if they want to invest actively, be our LP. So

06:25they should invest in the industry that they understand, right? So I think what the athlete

06:29today wants, especially the modern athlete that has probably already an agent that deals with

06:35his or her career, then it has potentially a commercial agent that deals with kind of the

06:39commercial side of things and monetizes their brand and their IP. And then there's always the

06:44financial advisor that kind of takes the big bulk of their wealth and kind of deploys it. So obviously,

06:50once they retire, they will not have financial problems, but there's a kind of a new element,

06:55which is, okay, what can I do with my money as an investor? You know, putting your money with

06:59your financial advisor doesn't make you an investor. It makes you, you just made a smart decision to

07:03obviously do that. So you're preserving your wealth and potentially generating a little bit out of it,

07:08but at the end of the day, you're not becoming an investor. So if you want to become an investor,

07:11you should do it in a sector that from day one, you add value with network and with the industry

07:17insights. And that's what they can do in sports. So it's basically telling them that, and we mostly

07:22only work with athletes that really have already decided on their own that they want to be involved,

07:26right? So if they do that, just our value, our proposition to them makes sense. We work with them

07:31eye to eye. So again, we're GPs, they're LPs, we're in this together. And I think that model just works

07:37really, really nicely. And obviously by being also first mover and doing that particularly out of Europe

07:41and attracting the best European athletes. And obviously then also that made the right base to attract,

07:46you know, to almost 200 athletes that we work with today. What's the other side of that coin

07:50there? Obviously having so many athletes is kind of a unique market advantage. Does that open up new

07:54opportunities? Does that get you into different doors? I mean, what's the strategic value that they

07:59actually bring back to you? Yeah, I think it's really an eye to eye in terms of what they give and

08:05what we give. They obviously unlock a lot of access, right? Just the fact that they know that they are

08:11RLPs, that they're close to us, that we can bring them on board or anything, attracts a lot of

08:15companies to ABEX. I think one kind of unique thing is really being close with them. So what we don't

08:23have beyond just their money is really that we're close. We're one call away to getting their industry

08:28insights and their opinion on something. I think that is so valuable. When we're looking at a new sport,

08:33for example, we can definitely speak to athletes that are either part of that sport or know of that

08:37sport. And they can give us therapy and what makes sense, doesn't make sense. So that transfer of

08:42knowledge that they give us is quite unique. And I think that's even what they most appreciate is

08:47feeling that we appreciate their knowledge beyond anything else. And that's different than what

08:52they're getting on their day to day, right? Obviously, Formula One driver, he doesn't need you to tell

08:57you he's a good driver. He doesn't need you to tell you that he's got money. He doesn't need you to tell

09:01you that his image is worth a cool sponsorship deal. They'll know that mostly. But if you're going to tell

09:06them that you're his knowledge of something is going to be useful to a company that will go,

09:11that is quite different to them. And they appreciate it. I'm glad you mentioned F1,

09:16though, because you have a number of F1 drivers who are invested with you guys. Lando Norris,

09:20Carlos Sainz, if you count, you know, the Cadillac coming to the grid, Valtteri Bottas.

09:24I'm curious why you guys have gravitated. Why? Well, rather, why F1 drivers have come to you guys so

09:30much? Why have you been able to kind of take over the grid, for lack of a better term there?

09:34I think that goes down to our foundation. So, two of our early athlete kind of partners that

09:42believe in it from day one are drivers themselves. They're, you know, both some of the best Formula E

09:50drivers in the world. But at the end of the world, the racing world is very small. So, everyone grows

09:57up in the same kind of grassroots route. So, we knew that through them, we would be close to that.

10:05Ourselves, so the other partners and founders of Apex, we were also born in that world, just at a

10:10personal level. So, we knew a little bit of these drivers as well. And we saw that F1 was definitely

10:15a support that was on the growth. So, if we would be able to get these guys from the beginning, that

10:19would be really kind of a statement. It's a tough world to crack. Once you're in, you're in. Super small,

10:24there's only 20 drivers. So, we knew that that was a clear focus. So, yeah, you know, that's why today,

10:30you mentioned a few, but more than half the grid has done deals with us, has invested in our fund

10:35and just close to us. Tangentially, you also brought Red Bull's investment arm into your fund.

10:41Obviously, not like literally the racing team, but the fact that you're in that broader Red Bull

10:45ecosystem. I'm curious, how did that deal come together? What does that do for you long term?

10:49Like, what opportunities does that open? So, that deal came together through, you know,

10:54just being in the same world. The sports world is actually much smaller than people would think,

10:59particularly when it comes to investing. We always knew that we would have to go beyond

11:05athletes to scale on a capital standpoint, right? And I think what we knew would be that the next step

11:11beyond athletes would be a couple of family offices, a couple of high net worth individuals,

11:14but also some very interesting strategics within sports that saw our value beyond the fact that

11:19we're still a young investment business, but they really could validate our strategic value. It's

11:23much easier for Red Bull to validate that than, you know, maybe a huge fund of funds that doesn't

11:28know much about sports. So, we knew that there were a few of these that we could target. Obviously,

11:32Red Bull would be kind of, was the name that we most, you know, we would always idealize and the fact

11:38that it became true, it's incredible and we're super happy. But Red Bull is a brand that has

11:43demonstrated and it's a business at the end of the day that has always seen sports as a fundamental

11:51kind of sector for them to grow as a business. They've invested directly in sports and they own

11:57teams up and operate teams, you know, in various different sports, as we all know, but they had

12:01never done kind of venture investing. So they, and they also were very kind of humble to know what

12:08they know and what they don't know. And the venture space is something that they hadn't done,

12:13but something that they definitely see that they need to be closer, not only as an investment

12:17opportunity, but also to integrate within the broader ecosystem of Red Bull. So they set up

12:22this 200 million kind of venture, corporate venture arm, let's say, to basically bring in all this

12:29technology innovation within the ecosystem. And as any smart corporate venture should do,

12:35their first investment is directly into funds and experts within that venture space.

12:42And obviously they identified Apex as their experts in sports, which for us again, is a huge honor.

12:48I thought for a moment, you're going to say like any smart company would do invest through us, but

12:52let's broaden things out for a moment. You're sports investors. The industry has never been hotter.

12:57You know, just as an example, the 124 teams in NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLB collectively worth more than $450

13:04billion. I mentioned those because Forbes has tracked those for 27 years. And over those 27 years,

13:09the average team in those leagues has gone up about 1800%, which is an astonishing figure.

13:15What that makes me think is sports values have climbed so high. From your perspective,

13:19as someone who's buying it and kind of trying to get to continue to get returns,

13:23is there room to keep going? Are you going to still be able to get these market-beating returns

13:27going forward? Is the space going to stay as hot? And are we going to see this much growth going forward?

13:32When it comes to, you know, let's say the big four, as you mentioned, you obviously will not be seeing

13:39that level of growth, right? Yeah, I think it will continue to grow. I think that the fact, you know,

13:46all the macro trends are positive towards more people consuming sports, more people practicing

13:53sports. Obviously, there's a lot of questions around how that's going to be done, how people will

13:57participate, how people will consume. But at the end of the day, the trends are favorable for the growth of

14:02sports. And I think those that, you know, that are established within the big four and that have

14:06also a franchise element to it will keep growing, but obviously not at the growth rates that we've

14:12seen because that's also just natural. But at the same time, I think, you know, kind of the risk of

14:18these assets or, you know, these franchises, you know, kind of go down will also decrease. So I think

14:23it will just be perceived as a different kind of investment, not a growth equity, more private equity

14:27like. That's why now you see a lot of private equity investors looking at NFL teams and maybe

14:31five years ago, it was mostly kind of family offices. Even if you couldn't, you know, private

14:36equity wouldn't. So now there's always an element of risk, which has reduced, but also kind of that

14:40growth that we saw particularly looking at F1 kind of, you know, 10 times in the last 10 years, you

14:46know, obviously that will continue going. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to circle back on F1 in a moment,

14:52but to your point, you know, private equity and institutional capital coming into sports,

14:57especially in North America, not something we've traditionally seen. So I'm curious when you bring

15:02in this large scale institutional money, these big private equity outfits who can, you know,

15:06come in and make these minority investments in such a large scale, what opportunities does that unlock?

15:11How does that change the economics of it, especially, you know, as a fund like you guys operating in there

15:16too? You know, for us, the first thing that we see, obviously, it's an institutional validation

15:21of the sector that we've been, you know, bullish on and kind of selling on to a lot of our investors,

15:27right? So I think that's the first thing. I think what these institutional investors are seeing is

15:33that there's, you know, investing into sports franchises is actually investing as well into

15:39massive IP and into, you know, going beyond sports into entertainment, into health, into wellness,

15:45into community. And I think at the end of the day, that is something that every investor is looking

15:50for because that brings stickiness to the investor. You know, sports is the only or one of the few

15:55kind of sectors, only is obviously not right, but one of the few sectors that can truly say that

16:00is uncorrelated to public markets, right? And I think that is something that brings particularly

16:05to institutional investors that sometimes, you know, invest in kind of five, seven, eight,

16:09ten-year horizons they need to kind of tell them. I think in a moment where we're seeing a lot of

16:15geopolitical instability, I think sports shows that resilience has an asset class as a whole,

16:24and that obviously is very attractive to institutional investors.

16:27So back on F1, okay, when we put out our valuations in 2023, the average F1 team was worth $1.88

16:33billion, which was 276% up from 2019 when we had teams at an average of $500 million. I mean, obviously,

16:42you know, with the way stakes are changing hands now, like values are going up, things are getting

16:47going higher and higher and higher. I'm curious kind of what your expectation is for those teams

16:52to appreciate going forward, because this is kind of a little bit of a different case study than what's

16:55been going on in North American sports. The changes in Formula One are a little more sudden with the

17:01way the business model has evolved. So what do you see there? I think one of the main reasons why we

17:07saw this crazy growth was obviously, you know, in the last five years, we went from nobody really

17:14knowing much around how an F1 team operated and what is really F1, to now there being a massive

17:21amount of investors wanting to buy in. And obviously, there's a huge scarcity element. So obviously,

17:25that's just market dynamics. Now, if we look at the business models, if we look at just actually the

17:29revenues, the teams are going up steadily. Obviously, not at the pace that we saw, you know,

17:34franchise values and valuations going up, but we do see definitely, you know, you see a lot of these,

17:38you know, the big teams almost around 1 billion in revenues, many of them 10 to 20% profitability

17:45ratios. I mean, that's a real number. That's a real business. So I think at the end of the day,

17:49that will keep going. And I think suddenly, you know, the kind of the boom and that over demand for

17:55F1 teams will go down. One, because I think the hype will reduce it too, because I think a lot of the

18:00teams will also realize, a lot of the investors will realize that it's not so easy to actually

18:04invest. And once you're in, actually add value, it's still, you know, you still need to understand

18:08sports. It's not just something they're buying in and, you know, and have to passively wait.

18:12I think that those kind of investors are not ready for F1 years. So I think that will

18:17reduce that hype. And at the end of the day, then the valuations will keep going up,

18:22just because revenue streams will increase and revenue numbers will keep increasing. And a lot of

18:27the teams will keep going profitable. I mean, at the end of the day,

18:29the majority of the teams, if not all of them, you know, return money.

18:35So when you talk about like many sports leagues, the revenue streams are dominated by media rights

18:41in a lot of cases, like you stick the NFL or the NBA, for example, billions and billions of dollars

18:45on predictable media rights. And that's kind of what underpins a lot of this valuation growth.

18:49What streams are you most bullish on in F1 and kind of underpinning their growth going forward?

18:53Is media rights kind of the thing we should all be circling? Is it, you know, just sponsorship?

18:57Like where, where do we look at Formula One and see growth coming down the pipe?

19:01I think a bit of everything. Obviously, obviously media rights is the big one,

19:04especially for the big, for the big leagues, you know, the big four, you know, the primary league.

19:11Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's the, it's the holy grail. And whoever can also kind of know where,

19:17where these media rights are going to go. And obviously you'll, you'll know, you'll know the future

19:22of sports and, you know, everyone should, should follow that. It's hard to, you know, like I said,

19:26eyeballs will keep going, going up, I believe. I believe that, you know, F1 will keep growing

19:32into new demographics, touching more women, touching younger people, touching new geographies.

19:38But, but it's not an obvious translation that that will result into more media rights because

19:45you're not sure where they're going to go. Is it going to be streaming? Is it going to be on,

19:49you know, on pay TV? You know, is the traditional routes going to stay or not? I mean,

19:52that's the big question broadly that NFL would love to know, that European football would love to know,

19:58that Formula One would love to know. I think on the sponsorship side, that's something that

20:01definitely we see at a different pace, but consistently increasing and we're very bullish on.

20:05There's obviously then, and you know, new revenue streams that can be unlocked,

20:09you know, in terms of how you engage with different audiences, you know, that cannot maybe go to the

20:14track. And I think that's still all early days. And we see that a lot through our, our venture fund,

20:18a lot of very cool ideas out there in how to monetize better the fan and the experience. But

20:27I mean, that's still early days, but I do believe that that will go from being a nice to have to a

20:31real revenue stream to, to the Formula One. Looking here in the US, kind of the addition of the Vegas

20:36race, I'm curious what you thought that did to the calendar and how kind of that brought things

20:40forward. Calendar is always, you know, it's always tough to, to, to change because everything needs to make

20:47sense. You know, there's, there's the media rights that play in it. There's also, you know,

20:54the drivers and, you know, where are they going to go? You know, you want them traveling back and

20:57forth. So obviously trying to force something in, um, is always a challenge. You see it with other

21:03sports like tennis and how complicated is it doing it when you're looking at a, you know, at a tournament

21:08or something, you know, it's all, it goes down to calendar and it can be the big reason why an

21:12investment makes sense or doesn't make sense. But I think obviously with Liberty owning Formula One

21:17and taking that promoter risk, which they did, uh, with, with Vegas, I think just allow them to be

21:23able to take that risk. I mean, at the end of Vegas is the capital of entertainment and Formula One is

21:29becoming an entertainment business. So it just made sense, um, as a whole, obviously year one of Vegas

21:36is, is a worse experience than it is going to be this year. And going forward, you improve, you, you

21:42adapt, you learn. Um, and, and there was some cultural resistance, you know, the track isn't

21:49the most exciting track for, for, for a driver. But then at the end of the day, what is driving

21:55eyeballs to Formula One? Is it the racing product or is it everything around it? It's more everything

21:59around it than us. I think obviously the idea of having a race in Vegas does. So Apex is invested

22:05in the Alpine F1 team. I'm curious, uh, walk me through that opportunity. Why did it make sense

22:10for you guys? What were you seeing there and kind of what you're aiming to get out of it?

22:13The first thing that we saw is we still believed that there was, you know, the, that level of growth

22:19curve was still to be captured. This was 23. Obviously, you know, the first wave was there, but we still

22:25believed there was going to be an element of that. So I think just tapping into that wave made sense

22:30for us. Obviously us being so born in, you know, one out of motor sports, obviously it made sense

22:37for us to be in Formula One. We knew we could drive a lot of value, uh, into a Formula One team. We knew

22:43we could help with a lot of the elements also around politics. So we knew we could be just a very, um,

22:48strategic partner, um, in that deal. And we, we, we knew that, you know, in, in five years value,

22:54we were very confident that valuations were, we're going to keep, keep increasing. So I think that was,

22:59you know, a simple base, uh, around, um, around the opportunity that made us comfortable in

23:05investing. But then also, you know, we were, we kind of, we came in the deal with, with Otro,

23:09it was an American investment fund spinoff of, of Redbird that structured a very, you know,

23:14a very good deal, which I think was, was very good for Renault, also very good for, for the investors.

23:19So everything just kind of, uh, made sense together. And then we knew that if we were able

23:24to bring some very great athletes as well into the mix, like Anthony Joshua, um, or, or, or,

23:30or Rory or Zverev, uh, you know, just a group of, you know, Trent Arnold, the, the Real Madrid,

23:36uh, English, uh, fullback, it just, uh, it would add also our, the athlete DNA, the apex DNA into the

23:42deal, which would make it also a special one. Where do you feel that they fit in, in the grid in terms

23:47of ranking the valuations? Are they middle of the pack team? And also, do you see them kind of as,

23:52as a team that can grow out of that kind of tiers? Because valuations generally operate in tiers.

23:57And I'm curious where they fall for you in the hierarchy and how high you think they can go.

24:01So Alpine is, you know, is Renault team, right? Renault is a team that has won, uh, two world

24:07championships, uh, with, with Alonso in the early 2000s. It's a team that has a lot of F1 heritage.

24:12And I think that is fundamental, um, for a team. And if you have that, you can never be considered in

24:19the lower tier. Now, as we all know, it's, it's not hard. We can just look at the, the,

24:24the championship standing this year. Um, the engine has been tough and obviously the performance has

24:30been struggling. So obviously that doesn't help. And it, there is an element, a huge element of

24:33performance that needs to be there for you to be considered within the top tiers. But if you look

24:38at, you know, the history of formula one, we know it's definitely, you know, uh, I would say not

24:42a tier one or a tier two team that could compete with the Aston Martins, um, um, um, of, of today.

24:50And that's where the team should be, but obviously it's also not, not what things are today. So we're

24:53also realistic. So I would say, you know, we'll be in, you know, in terms of valuations sitting

24:58nicely in, in the middle. Yeah. But again, at the end of the day, it goes down to heritage,

25:03to infrastructure, to IP, um, and, and I think with all, with those three elements, obviously Alpine

25:12stands in a good position. Obviously nothing can go up forever, right? I, I know people throw

25:18around the term, are we in a valuations bubble? Are we in a media rights bubble? It seems like

25:21whenever that starts getting thrown around, there's a new team sale, like the Lakers sell

25:25for $10 billion. So there's a new media rights deal. Do you, do you see us as approaching kind

25:31of a ceiling to valuations? And also how do you evaluate as an investor? When is the right time to

25:36get out? I agree in, in the sense that things don't always go up. Um, is it a bubble? It's hard

25:47for me to say. I mean, I don't know the answer to the question, to be fair. It's also not where we,

25:51we deploy again. We're not, you know, we're not a large cap investor. We're not going to be

25:55investing in an NFL team anytime soon. So, so it's also not kind of where we are focusing our time

26:01in understanding really what would we be underwriting if we would be investing into an

26:06NFL franchise today. And are they going to keep going up? I think they'll keep going up for a bit,

26:10you know, obviously again, growth rates will keep, will go down, but, but it will go down to,

26:16you know, let's follow the revenues and let's follow the money in that sense. And if revenues

26:20keep going up and potentially valuations will keep going up, but that's not where we'll focus again.

26:26We'll, we prefer to look at a sort of small mid cap. That's where we feel that's the bit,

26:29there's the best opportunity to invest. That's what we know better. And there in terms of exits,

26:34we're, we're very, we're very confident that if we do the right job and in buying into a couple of

26:39these businesses and helping them grow potentially into becoming a large cap, then obviously I think

26:44selling a business that is cashflow positive and considered a large cap, there's a bunch of

26:50investors full of capital ready to, to buy us out. From the investor perspective,

26:57how do you see F1 continue to grow in terms of fans and popularity? You know, you had Drive to Survive

27:02that kind of got it into a, a popularity phenomenon here. You have these races in these new markets,

27:07like we discussed, how do you keep adding fans if you're F1?

27:12I think if you ask F1 and if you have Cleaver today, I think they're not necessarily,

27:19I think they've done a great job in unlocking a lot of new fans. You can keep doing it, you know,

27:22as any big sport still does. But I think they've showed that F1 can be appealing to every kind of

27:30person and fan in the world, be it women, men, be it younger people, older people, you know,

27:36from the Middle East, Europe. So there's potentially a couple in, you know, regions where they can unlock

27:43a bit more. But at the end of the day, what I think where the growth will be is then how to monetize

27:49better. These new fans, you know, some of the fans might be watching, but might not be,

27:55you know, kind of getting the experience that they want, might not be, you know,

28:01spending the amount of money that they would be willing to if the product would be adjusted in

28:04that sense. So I think that's, they are more concerned today, Liberty and Formula One as a

28:09business thing is more concerned in how to find new ways to give a better experience and then monetize

28:16better, kind of, already they're huge global fans and they're potentially just growing. I think

28:20there is ways to grow, but they've done a great job already in, like I said, making Formula One a

28:25truly global business. From the Apex perspective, what sports are you most bullish on going forward?

28:30What sports, leagues, teams, where do you want to go in the future? So there's a lot to answer that

28:38question. I think we're very bullish women's sports. I mean, everyone talks about women's sports

28:42today, but I think looking at leagues in particular is something that we're very keen. I think there's

28:49tons of opportunities on the commercial side of women's sports. So really understanding where

28:54house brands are looking at women's sports and we really are very bullish around kind of the

28:58commercial rights of women's businesses and sports going up. So we're very bullish that we're very

29:04bullish. A lot of, you know, a lot of this kind of emerging leagues, emerging IP as, as we did with

29:09tomorrow sports, you know, bring a new kind of media product into golf as we saw with Baller League.

29:15That's that kind of investment, not within a particular sport, but broadly a disruptive

29:21concept around certain traditional sports, something that we are very keen on. And then in particular,

29:26tennis, we think is an exciting moment. So the same way that golf a couple of years ago was,

29:31and you saw a lot of things happening, we're feeling the same kind of movements. There's going to

29:35be a lot of good ways to lose money in tennis, but for sure now we feel that there's potentially

29:40some opportunities to also invest directly in the sport, which maybe five years ago we wouldn't

29:44be so certain. Antonio, thanks for being here with us today. Thank you very much.

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