- 3 months ago
Forbes Staff Writer Suzanne Rowan Kelleher joins Forbes Talks to discuss the fallout from the government shutdown on essential infrastructure and the workforce. She explains the immediate impact on business continuity as unpaid air traffic controllers and TSA agents lead to flight delays and airport chaos. They also cover the financial strain that pushes essential personnel to seek side hustles for survival.
Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/10/24/air-traffic-controller-sick-calls-flight-delays/
00:00 Introduction
00:33 The Shutdown's Immediate Impact on Air Traffic Controllers
03:20 How Sick Calls Lead to Ground Delays
05:50 Will Travel Chaos End the Shutdown
08:10 Clarifying the TSA Versus Air Traffic Control Difference
08:55 The Knock-On Effect at Major Hub Airports
11:13 Advice for Travelers with Booked Trips
16:11 The Shutdown's Threat to the Air Traffic Control Pipeline
20:09 Final Travel Advice and Mitigation Strategies
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Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/10/24/air-traffic-controller-sick-calls-flight-delays/
00:00 Introduction
00:33 The Shutdown's Immediate Impact on Air Traffic Controllers
03:20 How Sick Calls Lead to Ground Delays
05:50 Will Travel Chaos End the Shutdown
08:10 Clarifying the TSA Versus Air Traffic Control Difference
08:55 The Knock-On Effect at Major Hub Airports
11:13 Advice for Travelers with Booked Trips
16:11 The Shutdown's Threat to the Air Traffic Control Pipeline
20:09 Final Travel Advice and Mitigation Strategies
Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript
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Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com
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More From Forbes: http://forbes.com
Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, Senior Editor at Forbes.
00:06Flight delays are expected to mount this week as air traffic controllers miss their first paycheck because of the shutdown.
00:16Joining us now to talk about the situation is my colleague, Suzanne Rowan-Kelleher.
00:21She is a staff writer who covers travel, transportation, and all the most essential information that we need right now.
00:28Suzanne, thank you so much for joining us.
00:31It's good to be here.
00:32So you have this story that published yesterday that talks about air traffic controllers will miss their first full paycheck Tuesday.
00:40That's today, October 28th, due to the government shutdown.
00:45I have so many questions, but starting with the government has been shut down for a number of weeks.
00:50How was it that air traffic controllers were paid up until this point?
00:54So they get paid every two weeks, and two weeks ago on the 14th, they got a partial paycheck for work that was done before the shutdown started.
01:05So there was a lag.
01:07They got paid on the 14th for everything worked before October 1st.
01:12This is the first paycheck that they're seeing a zero paycheck.
01:16And what are we seeing at airports?
01:20You reported on delays at certain airports around the country.
01:24Can you take us through some of the most major airports and what we know about flight delays right now?
01:29So what's happened?
01:32Okay, so just sort of if we back up and we kind of give a little grace to air traffic controllers, even before the shutdown, I think we've discussed this.
01:43There's been a shortage of air traffic controllers.
01:46They have been working 10-hour days, six days a week, with four days off every month.
01:53And that was before the shutdown, and now they're not getting paid.
01:57So I've been talking to quite a few air traffic controllers.
02:01They are stretched thin.
02:03This is a very fatigued workforce already, and now you've got this stress on top of it.
02:10So what happened in the last shutdown in 2018-19, we're starting to see happen again, where air traffic controllers, and this happened also with the TSA workers who missed their first paycheck last Friday.
02:25They, hitting that first paycheck is a big gut punch, and they start doing a lot of soul searching.
02:34I've heard from air traffic controllers who are driving Uber, and for DoorDash, on their four days off, they're calling in sick to grab an extra shift on Uber because they can't pay their mortgage or their childcare or whatever.
02:52I've heard from air traffic controllers who told me that they went into debt the last shutdown because even though they get back pay when the shutdown ends, it comes in one of those lovely lumps that gets taxed at a higher rate, and they get made whole.
03:09You know, it gets sorted out when they file their taxes next April, but in that meantime, they're short, and so there's a lot of stress.
03:18Yes, so we do see that air traffic controllers are, FAA has been putting up what they call staffing triggers, which is when there's an insufficient personnel level at a facility, they put out a staffing trigger, and that sometimes they can mitigate and just kind of work around it, and sometimes it leads to ground delays, ground stops, and other types of mechanisms to slow traffic down.
03:48And that causes delays.
03:51So, essentially, and I do have this statement from Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy that you referenced, we have more people calling in sick, more people not showing up for work.
04:00He said this on Sunday Morning Futures.
04:03And so, when you have people calling in sick, a certain number of air traffic controllers can be out and operations can continue as normal, but eventually it gets to the point that ground stops happen.
04:18What else happens when too many air traffic controllers don't show up for work?
04:22Yeah, before a ground stop, there would be something called a ground delay, and basically that is where they don't stop traffic completely in and out of an airport, but they slow it way down, and they slow it down so that they can manage it.
04:37So, it's, you know, air traffic controllers, their job is to sequence flights so that everybody, all the planes get in that orderly line that we know when we're in a plane or either kicking off or landing.
04:49They want to keep distance between planes, they want to keep distance between planes, that's the biggest thing.
04:55So, they have to know where everything is, and if there aren't enough controllers, they need to mitigate and slow traffic down.
05:04That causes delays.
05:05A ground delay, what that does, let's just say there's a ground delay in Newark, it means that planes coming into Newark are delayed.
05:13So, what they'll do is they'll hold your plane, say you're flying from Charlotte, they'll hold the plane in Charlotte, and then you'll, you know, it might be an hour, it might be two hours, however long it is.
05:27My husband had a colleague flying from Texas to New York over the weekend, and it became what should have been like a two-hour trip.
05:37It was like a nine-hour day, stuck in airports, and, you know, and that, we're going to see some of that in the next, if the shutdown keeps going, we're going to see more of that.
05:50What do your sources say about the continuation of the shutdown?
05:54Are you having anyone telling you that this air traffic control issue, which is crucial for American transportation, is that putting any pressure on the government to get back to work?
06:05You know, that's what, that's what basically broke the shutdown in 2018-2019.
06:14There was a day when 10 air traffic controllers called in, you know, there were a number of airports along the eastern seaboard that basically came to ground stops, and they, you know, Congress suddenly, or President Trump during his first turn suddenly, you know, kind of had a come to Jesus moment,
06:32and ended this, the shutdown.
06:36I don't hear anybody saying that now.
06:39In fact, I think I read something this morning where the Republicans that had been floating this idea of paying some federal workers, including air traffic controllers, are now walking that back.
06:50So, it does not feel like we're getting closer to a resolution of the shutdown, but what will happen is that the air traffic controllers are going to get more and more stressed out, and more fatigued, and you're going to see a lot more of, you're going to see a lot more sick calls.
07:11And, you know, I think that people have to realize that these sick calls, I mean, they can be for legitimate reasons.
07:18Like, one air traffic controller told me that his kid was sick, and he's like, I cannot afford babysitting right now, because I don't have a paycheck.
07:28So, what is he going to do, leave his seven-year-old home by himself?
07:32Like, there's, you know, I think we're putting people in these situations where, for legitimate reasons, people talk about, you know, the illegitimate reasons people will call in sick.
07:43But what I'm hearing from air traffic controllers that I talk to is that people, they really, they want to be at work, but they have life, you know.
07:53They have things going on, and they need to take some time.
07:57So, I think, you know, it's going to, we're just going to see more sick calls.
08:03And then you mentioned that TSA agents went without their first paycheck on Friday.
08:09And before we started recording, you said you think there might be some confusion or general misunderstanding about the difference between the paychecks going to the TSA versus air traffic controllers.
08:20Would you like to clarify that confusion that you've been seeing right now?
08:25Yeah, I mean, I don't, I think that a lot of people, they understand that both TSA workers and air traffic controllers are both federal workers, but they work for different agencies.
08:36So, TSA is under Homeland Security.
08:39It's a security force.
08:41And the air traffic controllers are under the FAA, which is under the Department of Transportation.
08:47So, what happens when TSA workers call in sick, and they're doing that as well, is that you see longer lines of security, right?
08:58So, if they can't open, if an airport can't open up a lane or two, every other lane gets longer.
09:04We've all been there, right?
09:06So, that is happening.
09:08And then also, now we have the air traffic controllers having missed their first full paycheck.
09:16And when they call in sick, that's when the flights are actually delayed.
09:21If a TSA workers call in sick, it doesn't delay flights.
09:25It delays, it causes congestion inside the airport.
09:28If an air traffic, if a bunch of air traffic controllers call in sick, that causes the flight delays.
09:35And one thing that I'd like to say, though, that is what I've noticed in the last, certainly since Sunday, is if you look at the airports that are having the call-outs, they're the biggest airports in the country.
09:47You had Atlanta yesterday, 800 flights in and out of Atlanta delayed, 800.
09:54You have Denver, the fourth largest, the fourth busiest airport today.
10:02LAX, I think, is number five on Saturday or Sunday, I think.
10:06They had a ground stop because of staffing.
10:09These are the biggest airports that are being affected.
10:13Right now, there is a staffing trigger at the Philadelphia TRACON, which is a terminal.
10:20There are three types of facilities, but it's the facility that basically oversees Newark Airport.
10:29And that has a, that TRACON has a staffing trigger right now.
10:35So, you know, Newark is, I think, the seventh or eighth, you know, busiest.
10:40So, you have, you have a lot of the busiest hubs having this happen.
10:47And that, then, there's a knock-on effect, right?
10:50If you, the hubs tend to be where a layover happens.
10:54So, if you're flying from A to B, you're probably actually going to end up at some other airport for a layover.
11:01And if that airport has a staffing trigger or a ground delay, guess what?
11:08Your whole day now is ruined.
11:11What is your advice to travelers?
11:14I guess there are two buckets of travelers.
11:16Folks who've had long planned trips, booked their flights months, weeks before the shutdown began,
11:23before, before we reached this situation.
11:26So, you have people who have these, these tickets and weren't expecting the situation.
11:31And then there's the bucket of people who might need to travel in the coming days,
11:34haven't booked their tickets yet.
11:36Let's start with that first group.
11:37For folks with long planned trips, what would you tell them right now?
11:42So, first of all, I get asked all the time, is flying safe?
11:46And I would say it is safe.
11:48Because, like I said before, what they do is they just slow everything down.
11:53So, it's not, you know, the FAA is not going to allow, you know, they'll have a ground stop
12:02before they allow an unsafe situation.
12:05What travelers are going to find, though, is a lot of hassle.
12:10They're going to get to the airport.
12:11There's going to be probably longer lines for security.
12:14They're going to have to get to the airport sooner in order to just, you know,
12:19they're not going to know maybe until they get there.
12:20TSA used to have a, they have an app that you can look up the wait time.
12:25Guess what?
12:26That's not being monitored during the shutdown, right?
12:29So, there's very, you know, you could call the airport, I suppose.
12:33But, and, you know, watch for alerts from your airline.
12:36But it's, you know, prepare for a long spell at the airport.
12:42And then, so, back to your question, I think if you have your flights booked and you, I
12:49would say, do you have travel insurance?
12:51Are you able to maybe, it depends on your level of tolerance of hassle, right?
12:58Are you prepared to spend the whole day maybe traveling when you thought it was going to
13:02be a four-hour, you know, experience?
13:07If you have travel insurance and if you've, if you can maybe postpone the trip, maybe that
13:13would, personally, that's what I would do.
13:16I've been telling people, you know, if it's like an eight-hour drive, why don't you just
13:21drive?
13:22Because you'll probably get there faster than you would, you know, very possibly if
13:28you flew.
13:30So, I mean, I think it's, it's really, it's just going to be a very awful, hassle-filled
13:38experience at airports until this gets resolved.
13:43You answered my second question there.
13:45So, if you can drive or take other means of transportation, that is, that's your advice
13:50to folks who are planning trips right now.
13:52Yeah, it's a personal thing, but I mean, I would much rather be in a car.
13:56I know the safety, you know, that the track record for safety for air travel is a lot,
14:01I get every aviation, you know, expert, don't call me.
14:06I know the stats say that it's much more dangerous to fly, to drive, but honestly, you know, I feel
14:13better when I'm moving than when I'm just sitting in an airport lounge.
14:19So, yes, like I would say, start to kind of like think these things through.
14:25I heard from Hopper yesterday, which is like a flight booking app that they're seeing a
14:31huge uptick in people booking travel insurance so that they can pull the plug if they, if they
14:38need to, and the, the thing is, you know, we don't know how long this is going to go on.
14:45You know, we're already almost at the longest, we're already the second longest shutdown.
14:51We, we're not too far away from being the longest shutdown.
14:54I've heard some politicians say it could go through Thanksgiving.
15:00That would be horrendous, like absolutely horrendous for, well, the whole economy, but also just
15:09for travelers.
15:11The US Travel Association says we're losing, you know, $1 billion a week in tourism revenue,
15:18which is basically how they calculate that is what people spend when they're, you know,
15:23on vacation or on trips and people spend money.
15:27Obviously, when you're away from home, you need a hotel, you eat out of restaurants, all
15:31those things that's not happening as much.
15:34So it's a, it's a huge issue for the entire economy.
15:38And, you know, I think I'm hoping that it ends quickly.
15:43I've, I've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks speaking with TSA officers and air
15:48traffic controllers.
15:50I have a lot of sympathy for their predicament because they, um, they're not getting a paycheck
15:55when the Congress people who put the shutdown on the map, uh, they are getting paid and they're
16:01not even, the house members aren't even in Congress right now.
16:05It is very hard to not see this as an unjust kind of situation.
16:10And your comments there made me bring up a paragraph from one of your stories where
16:16transportation secretary was talking about the hiring supercharge that he had been talking
16:21about earlier in the year.
16:22As you noted earlier in this conversation, the ongoing shortage and pressure of and on
16:29air traffic controllers has been one of the key storylines in American aviation this year.
16:34Do you think that this shutdown will diminish the number of people who apply for these jobs
16:42for folks who were thinking about it and they're watching what's going on?
16:46Do you think we'll still see them working to become air traffic controllers?
16:51So I do.
16:53I remember, I think, uh, the FAA is afraid of that.
16:56I think, um, Sean Duffy, transportation and secretary Sean Duffy said as much when he was on
17:03Fox News over the weekend, he said, what happens is there's a pipeline, right?
17:07So you have kind of cadets that are in the pipeline.
17:10They have to go to the economy at Oklahoma city.
17:13Then they get assigned to an air traffic control facility somewhere else in the country.
17:19Um, they're being trained.
17:20The instructors right now are not being paid.
17:23Um, so, and they, from what I've heard, I also have talked to a lot of, uh, the trainees,
17:30the training, um, staff, and they don't feel like they're paid enough anyway, and now they're
17:36not being paid.
17:37But what happens is that the cadets are getting, they, they get a stipend and that's running
17:43out in like another week.
17:45And, um, even when they start, um, you know, like air traffic controllers, when they're, um,
17:52when they're seasoned, they can make, you know, a good six figure income.
17:57But when they start, they're just like any other entry-level, uh, employee, not, not being
18:02paid anywhere near what the experienced, uh, top level people are.
18:07And, um, I, and, uh, Sean Duffy said, you know, people are going to wash out of the system.
18:12Like that we've, they've already invested getting them to a certain part in the pipeline.
18:17It takes like three or four years to train, uh, an air traffic controller until they're certified.
18:22And if partway through that pipeline, we're pulling the plug, they were, they're pulling
18:27their own plug because they're like, oh my God, you know, and of course they're, they're
18:31talking to people who remember the last shutdown.
18:34People have muscle memory.
18:36And so they're, they're hearing their colleagues say, oh my gosh, this is like last time.
18:43And I had to sell my car or I had to, you know, and I think there's a lot of people rethinking
18:49their choices, um, it's just not a good situation, um, at all.
18:54If you're trying to attract talent and, and air traffic controllers, there's a very specific
19:00type of person that can be an air traffic controller.
19:04Um, I've heard people say it's like a short order cook mentality.
19:08You know, things are flying at you all the time and you just have to stay calm and keep
19:13things moving.
19:13Um, one air traffic controller, a very senior, um, guy told me that it's gamers, right?
19:20People who can just kind of have a lot of, uh, stuff happening on the screen and, and they
19:26kind of just kind of keep either the calm duck on the surface that just keeps paddling.
19:32Um, that is not, you know, that is a very, a lot of people who start the process to become
19:38an air traffic controller, wash out.
19:40They wash out because the FAA washes them out because they're, they're, they don't have
19:44the right, um, probably temperament.
19:48Um, you have to, it's an incredibly stressful job and to be able to do it for 10 hours at
19:55a time and then expect to do it without pay, I think is, um, you know, it is a huge, just
20:05huge stress on top of an already stressful job.
20:10You took the words out of my mouth.
20:11It is an incredibly stressful job, a very important job.
20:15And one that has been made 10 times, if not 20 times harder due to the ongoing government
20:20shutdown.
20:21Suzanne, we've covered a lot of ground.
20:23Is there anything else you want the Forbes audience to know about how the shutdown is
20:28affecting air traffic controllers and air travel in the United States?
20:32I would just, uh, tell people if you are traveling, definitely get to the airport early, like way
20:39earlier than you were planning on it.
20:41Um, be, just breathe, be prepared for disruption because it's, um, it's either going to happen,
20:49I think it, you know, on the TSA side where you're having a, you know, you're encountering a longer
20:55line in the airport or your flight might be delayed fly early in the morning.
21:00If you possibly can, um, even in good times, like on a clear blue sky day, um,
21:07a morning flight is a lot less likely to be disrupted, to be deflated or delayed or canceled.
21:13Uh, those things tend to, you know, ramp up as the day goes on.
21:17So, um, you know, make it, give yourself the best odds for, you know, having a, a clean kind of journey.
21:25Um, and, you know, if you can, um, if you, if you can maybe think about delaying your trip
21:33until, you know, maybe even a week, maybe it'll be over by then.
21:38Uh, I think, I think a lot of people are making those kinds of calculations and I think it's probably
21:43not, uh, unwise. I mean, you could, you could be looking at spending half a day or an entire day
21:50at an airport. Suzanne, thank you so much for joining us and giving us this advice. Thank you
21:56for your coverage. For folks who want ongoing updates, should they follow you on Forbes? Should
22:01they follow you on social? Where should they find you? Sure. They can follow me at Forbes.
22:06Follow Suzanne at Forbes. Suzanne, thank you so much for joining us. You're welcome.
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