00:35Welcome to the Kent Politics Show, live on KMTV.
00:39I'm Megan Shaw and it's been a whirlwind week in politics.
00:42As Sakiya Starmer's hold on the Labour Party continues to crumble.
00:46Alongside potential leadership challenges from Wes Streeting, Angela Rayner and Andy Burnham,
00:52support here in Kent also has dwindled.
00:54Kevin McKenna for Sittingbourne and Sheppey, Tony Vaughan for Folkestone and Hyth
00:58and Neshaba Khan for Raynham and Gillingham are all calling for his removal.
01:02Let's hear from Neshaba now.
01:04Unfortunately, I do not think that the Prime Minister's position is recoverable.
01:10And rightly or wrongly, he has lost the trust of the British public.
01:14You know, I don't think changing leader is a magic bullet that will fix all problems that we might be
01:20presented with.
01:21I'm not suggesting that. And I do recognise that there is a level of risk when you do something like
01:27this.
01:27And I recognise the potential instability it can cause.
01:31And it's a full house today on the Politics Show.
01:34And I'm joined by Labour's Chattern and Aylesford MP, Tris Osborne, leader of Medway Council,
01:39Vince Maple for Labour and Co-operative and the Conservative leader of the Opposition at Medway Council,
01:44George Perfect. Thank you all for joining me.
01:48So we just saw the pictures on screen there, Vince, with you and the PM and Neshaba.
01:52So what went wrong?
01:54Well, let's say a couple of things right off the start.
01:57Last Thursday was a really, really painful day for the Labour Party.
02:02We had some terrible election results, no doubt of that.
02:05And it was good to hear Keir taking that responsibility, as you should do as a leader.
02:09And all three of us actually have been involved in local government politics for some time.
02:13So it's not just about, these are not just numbers on a spreadsheet.
02:16These are people often, you know, people we know from across the country.
02:19So really difficult.
02:21So that reflection of that was important.
02:24I was really pleased to be there on Monday when Keir gave his speech,
02:28reflecting back on the kind of what has happened so far.
02:31And I was pleased to hear some positive movement, positive recognition.
02:35Actually, we've got to improve collectively, both him as an individual,
02:40but collectively in government and across the Labour Party.
02:43You know, that feeling of making sure we're not talking about spreadsheets,
02:47but we're telling stories.
02:48We're telling the narrative of some of the great work that Tris
02:52and all the parliamentary team are doing up in Westminster,
02:54bringing forward really positive legislation changes to our country.
02:58But I think it's a fair criticism to say that that narrative telling,
03:03that storytelling, explaining how those positive things,
03:06like even the GDP, really good GDP results earlier this week.
03:11But what does that mean to residents in Medway?
03:13So I think it's about being better at that narrative telling.
03:16And clearly that narrative telling isn't going brilliantly, would you not say, Tris,
03:19when Medway seems split.
03:21We've got Neshaba calling for the PM and Lauren Edwards has been silent.
03:25What do you make of this?
03:26Well, I signed a letter this week to say that Keir should stay in place.
03:30And if we look at the last general election results,
03:32he won more seats in Kent than any Labour leader in my lifetime.
03:36It is not the right time during a King's speech,
03:39when you're setting out the platform for future years,
03:42delivering for the British people,
03:44that this leadership election happened at this point.
03:46And just lastly, this week has been a bit of a tale of two halves,
03:49because whilst we had those issues going on,
03:52and incidentally, they didn't have the numbers that Neshaba was claiming,
03:55and that there's no leadership election because of that.
03:57We also had the other tale, which of course is falling waiting lists,
04:0120% down in Medway Maritime, 0.6% growth.
04:04We've now had growth in every quarter under this government,
04:07a 40% reduction in boat crossings,
04:09and net migration falling after the Boris Wade period.
04:12So actually, we actually have a really positive story to tell the British public.
04:16It is only two years in.
04:18It will take five years to get that agenda fully delivered.
04:22So it's just very frustrating that we're deciding to become introspective.
04:26And that's the reason why I think we should focus with Keir
04:29on just getting through the legislative agenda
04:32so we can focus on the priorities of the British people.
04:35I mean, despite that, can you agree?
04:39I've never in my lifetime have I seen a Prime Minister so quickly,
04:42with so much, so little support, seem to stay in that position.
04:45Do you really think we will see those five years under Keir Starmer?
04:50So, when you say little support, there isn't a leadership race.
04:53So therefore, the rest of the Parliamentary Labour Party
04:56did not sign any letter or any action for there to be a leadership race,
05:01whereas Streeting has now stepped down and resigned.
05:04That's unfortunate because, as I've just said,
05:06we've just had a record fall in waiting times,
05:08which is going to impact Medway residents and those across Kent.
05:11So I think that we now need to govern.
05:13We now need to get on with delivering, challenging the cost of living crisis
05:17caused by an Iran conflict, which is going to make things worse,
05:20growing the economy like we've done this week,
05:22cutting waiting lists, controlling migration,
05:25and also working to improve the lives of our communities.
05:28And that's what I'm focused on every single day.
05:30So I don't think introspection is the right course of action.
05:33And that is why this week I signed that letter to say,
05:36let's focus on the priorities of the British people.
05:39George, I'll bring you in.
05:40This must seem a bit familiar.
05:41It wasn't too long ago when the Conservatives were trying to play musical chairs
05:45with the Premiership.
05:46Is this a familiar story for you?
05:48Well, I think absolutely.
05:50I think Kemi's been reflecting this week on the fact that
05:53exactly what TRIZ has just been saying isn't actually happening.
05:56I mean, the irony of the Member of Parliament here for Chatham and Arlesford
05:59sitting telling us that he thinks that the government is focused on delivering
06:03for the British people, well, it's focused on the complete opposite.
06:06You had this week a King's speech completely derailed by a Prime Minister
06:12literally taking in action.
06:14He had in the one morning just earlier in the week,
06:17we had the Health Secretary come into number 10,
06:20a 10-minute meeting in which we understand that the Prime Minister
06:23was told that the Health Secretary had lost confidence.
06:26Instead of being there and taking action and sacking him immediately,
06:29the Prime Minister goes down to the King's speech
06:31with the Health Secretary sat on the front bench,
06:34delivers a pretty poor speech in response to the Leader of the Opposition
06:39in the afternoon.
06:40And then the following day is humiliated when the Health Secretary resigns.
06:44And, of course, this is just the latest, this week,
06:47just the latest week of complete chaos.
06:49We've had, in recent times, we've had, obviously, Peter Mandelson
06:53being one of the most, one of the, seems to be the flagship policy
06:56of TRIZ's government.
06:58We then had, of course, cutting winter fuel payments.
07:00We've had declaring war on farmers.
07:02All we've had is constant problem and failure after failure.
07:06U-turn changes every other week.
07:09And now that is where they've ended up.
07:11This week, we've got three MPs.
07:13We've got the Member of Parliament for Rochester and Strude,
07:15who's silent, as always.
07:16We've got the Member of Parliament here for Chatham and Hours
07:18for telling us that he's pro the Prime Minister.
07:21And now we've got Nishaba Khan, who you might argue is,
07:24of the three MPs, seemingly having the most high-flying career
07:27as a PPS in the Cabinet Office,
07:28resigning and claiming that she doesn't have confidence.
07:30I mean, you're calling for him to resign,
07:32but is the Tories, are they still not struggling
07:34and trying to redeem that reputation
07:36after going through so many Prime Ministers?
07:37That's clearly damaged the reputation
07:39when you look at the local elections.
07:41Well, it has.
07:41And that's why you need to get on and deliver for the British people.
07:44And the advice that I would give to my colleagues here from Labour
07:47is that you need to get on and deliver.
07:49Look at the difference, actually, under our leadership with Kemi.
07:51The minute Robert Jenrick was found to be plotting to defect to reform,
07:55she removed him immediately.
07:56We've focused very much on the objectives of the British people.
08:00We announced an alternative King's speech this week,
08:02the only opposition party to do so, which we published online.
08:05And Kemi responded within the House of Commons very clearly and articulately.
08:09And I think we've demonstrated as an opposition
08:11that we're effective in holding the government to account.
08:13Meantime, the government is fighting itself.
08:15It's very unclear exactly where the government is going.
08:18We don't know who the next Prime Minister is going to be.
08:20And, of course, we then find out very late yesterday
08:22one of Tris's friends, I assume, and colleagues
08:25is going to resign his seat at huge cost to the taxpayer
08:28in order, hopefully, that apparently Andy Burnham's going to come in,
08:32possibly win an election, possibly then be Prime Minister.
08:35And apparently all of Labour's problems will be fixed.
08:37But as we know, it's their own MPs that are the problem.
08:40Yeah, so, first of all, absolutely,
08:42I'll focus on the privacy of the British people.
08:44This week we had a record fall in waiting times.
08:46That's 20% reduction in Medway Maritime.
08:48That's a local hospital here.
08:500.6% growth in the economy.
08:52Migration is beginning to head in the right direction as well
08:54with net migration falling.
08:56So, look, on all the key issues which are critical
08:58for people watching this programme,
09:01actually there is a positive news story to tell.
09:03And that's why I'm really keen to tell that news story
09:06and not the introspection.
09:07But would that story not be true under West Street
09:09and under Andy Burnham?
09:11Well, we're all part of a collective team.
09:14So, of course it would be.
09:15But let me just challenge the point of where Kemi...
09:17Kemi's name recognition at the moment is very low.
09:20Only 50% of the public can even recognise her name.
09:22This next by-election, they won't be on the page.
09:25It will be a reform Labour fight.
09:27And that is the next general election.
09:29The next general election is a right-wing party led by reform,
09:32nationalist in its intent, and a centre-left government.
09:35And that will be the decision that people in Medway
09:38next year will have to make in the local elections
09:40and in the general election in the time to come.
09:43The Conservatives, I'm afraid, are not on the page.
09:45And we'll see in the forthcoming by-election
09:47where they actually come.
09:49And I suspect they might even lose their deposit.
09:51And in the last two by-elections,
09:53Cliftonville and Gordon and Denton,
09:54we didn't see Labour coming in second.
09:56We saw the Greens winning and then reform,
09:59and Labour weren't down to the list.
10:00Are you not... Is there not a worry there?
10:02So, I reflected on this last night.
10:04The Labour 2024 coalition has fragmented.
10:08We've lost Liberal-left support that's going to the Greens.
10:12And we're losing working-class people
10:14concerned about cost of living,
10:16concerned about migration, going to reform.
10:19It is not going to the Conservatives.
10:21And so the next election,
10:22and this by-election that will come up,
10:24will be a reform versus Labour race.
10:27And that is what the next three years will be about.
10:29Do you want Nigel Farage in number 10,
10:31or do you want a centrist centre-left government?
10:35And that is where we're heading.
10:36I'm afraid, Kemi, she can say anything she wants in Parliament.
10:40She's off the page, and no-one's focusing on them.
10:42Vince, I'm sure a lot of our viewers,
10:44the next time Edway Council does have local elections,
10:47will be thinking about reform,
10:48after having seen, you know, this chaos.
10:51Well, I think you're right.
10:54Obviously, next time Medway will vote across Medway,
10:56will be next year, probably for our new council.
10:59So we don't know what that will look like yet.
11:01But I think people will look and go,
11:03actually, we've seen the chaos down the roads at Maidstone.
11:06We've seen, you know, an absolute year of chaos.
11:09You know, the only reason I've ever replaced a Cabinet member
11:12is when they got elected to Parliament.
11:14It feels like KCC under reform are changing Cabinet members
11:18more than I change the bins in my house,
11:20every week in Medway, of course.
11:22But I want to go back to the central point here,
11:24which is, of course, I wish we were talking about
11:28all the things that Trish has spoken about,
11:30all the things I was talking about
11:31at our annual council earlier this week.
11:33We spent the first half of the Kent Politics show
11:36talking about an internal Labour Party matter.
11:39And that frustrates me.
11:40And I'll tell you why.
11:41Because in 2023 and 2024,
11:44we had supporters who were generally supporters
11:47of George's party voting for us
11:50because they wanted to end the chaos.
11:51They wanted to end the merry-go-round of politics at number 10.
11:54And I'm frustrated,
11:55as a leader of local government here in Medway,
11:58that we've taken ourselves back to that.
12:00We've got more after the break.
12:02Stay where you are.
12:21We've got more after the break.
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15:19Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:23I'm Megan Shaw, I'm still joined by the MP for Chairman Aredford, Tris Osborne,
15:28am the leader of the Medway Council for Labour and Cooperative, Vince Maple, and of course, the leader of the
15:33opposition, George Perfect. I've just been told that r
15:36Andy Burnham has been given the go-ahead to go for the MP position, to go for the by-election.
15:42Do you both really have confidence, given the past two by-elections we've seen in this
15:46country, that Labour really could retain that seat and we've seen reforms sweeping the north?
15:51I mean, I'm very happy to answer.
15:53Very good news if that is the case, because Andy is, he's delivered from Manchester, he's
15:58been re-elected there several times with huge majorities.
16:01He's from that community.
16:02He was raised there.
16:04So this is going back home for him.
16:06And so I'm really pleased that that's been the case.
16:09But I just mentioned this earlier.
16:10This will be now a Labour versus reform fight and this is about the future of the country
16:16actually.
16:16I think this is a proxy by-election for where we'll be in three years' time.
16:20The last local elections, reform won every ward in that council.
16:24Will Andy be able to come back now and take that seat?
16:27It is a Labour seat currently.
16:29We feel very well in the locals.
16:30Will Andy be able to build that coalition again that we built in 2024 and win?
16:35And if he is, that will set the tone for coming back to Parliament and playing a massive
16:40part in supporting the Labour government.
16:43So I'm really pleased if that's the need.
16:44Vince, surely it's a risk for the mayoral position there in Greater Manchester.
16:48Well, you've got two big by-elections if Andy Burnham wins.
16:52And I, of course, I want him to win.
16:54I'm sure I'll end up going to knock on some doors as I did in the two other by-elections
16:59you've mentioned already.
17:00Would you back him over Starmer then?
17:01Well, no.
17:02I'd back him to win a by-election in Manchester.
17:05But you won't want him to go for a Premiership.
17:07As I said, I don't care who the opposition person is within our own party.
17:12I want to see Keir Starmer continuing to deliver.
17:15I think that's really important.
17:17Because again, going back to what we were saying earlier on, you know, I'll be out this
17:20weekend.
17:21I'm in WHO and Hempstead over the weekend.
17:24I know people will want to talk to me about what's going on in the community.
17:27The distractions of the Labour… No, I've never knocked on a door in Medway and people
17:32have gone, I'm going to vote Labour because you're arguing with yourself.
17:35When Jeremy Corbyn was struggling with retaining power, you also backed him.
17:40Did you just back the leader of the Labour Party?
17:42I think…
17:43Look, I'm a loyal Labour Party member, Labour Party representative.
17:47As a coincidental aside, I was re-elected for the 14th year unopposed.
17:52So again, I think loyalty in politics matters and people want to see that.
17:56People don't want to see their elected representatives arguing with each other.
18:01I think people want to see good leadership, effective leadership.
18:05Keir's recognised there's more to do.
18:07We heard that on Monday, particularly around telling those important stories of how these
18:13great policies are going to positively impact on lives.
18:17George, you must also be concerned about Conservatives in Manchester if Andy Burnham were to get
18:24that MP seat.
18:25Yeah, I mean, this isn't going to be a target seat for us, but I think my observation generally
18:29would be, look, this is a completely self-created crisis.
18:33You know, you've had an MP that's resigned for what reason we don't quite know to allow
18:36a potential candidate to be leader of the Labour Party in for what reason we don't
18:40quite know.
18:41All whilst the public sit back and watch and have to pay for all of this, residents have
18:45to pay for the cost of that by-election.
18:47And potentially, if we end up with a by-election across the whole of Greater Manchester, pay millions
18:51of pounds in order to pay for that by-election.
18:53And it comes back to a point actually that Tris was just talking about, which is, at the moment,
18:58we are in a system whereby we have got the Conservatives, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, you might argue,
19:03existing parties fighting against populists, both extreme left-wing populists in the Green
19:08Party and extreme right-wing populists in Reform UK.
19:12And the important thing that the public want to see is delivery.
19:15And part of the big challenge that we're going to continue to see whilst this merry-go-round
19:19goes round of whilst they're trying to work out who's going to be the Prime Minister, is
19:23at the end of the day, it allows those populists and extremists to continue to make the points
19:26that they want to make about why people should vote for them.
19:29And ultimately, it's people that are going to suffer.
19:31It can't be that extreme if they were voted into Kent County Council if that's what the
19:35people of Kent voted for.
19:37I think there are factions in both the Green Party and Reform that are extreme.
19:40And I think that people have to wake up and listen and hear some of the challenges and
19:45some of the things that those people are saying, particularly some of the things we've seen
19:48from the Greens recently, some of their candidates which have had to be expelled.
19:51The same for Reform UK locally and nationally.
19:54I think, yeah, I think it's really concerning.
19:56And people will vote for these parties all the time that mainstream politics isn't delivering
20:00for them.
20:01And what we're seeing here with this merry-go-round of Labour leaders absolutely demonstrates
20:05the real challenge that this country is facing.
20:08Gents, I'll put that to you.
20:08Well, I think George is right to raise the scrutiny that the two kind of insurgent parties need
20:16to be given.
20:17And that's happening, you know.
20:19And it's telling that, for example, one of the elected Reform councillors made some disgraceful
20:27comments, absolutely racist comments, that their deputy leader wouldn't condemn on television.
20:34I'm not going to repeat them.
20:35They are disgusting.
20:36People will know the comments I'm talking about.
20:39You know, if any of the mainstream political parties were to make those comments, that individual
20:45would be expelled instantly.
20:47I've no doubt of that.
20:48So from that perspective, it is about saying, actually, while we have this internal conversation,
20:54which, again, I've shared my frustrations about that, what that does do as well is take
21:00away from, rightfully, the spotlight being shown on an equal level.
21:03You know, these new parties are gaining power.
21:06They gained power last week.
21:07So with that becomes responsibility.
21:09And we've seen how some of those insurgent parties have failed over the last 12 months.
21:13But also, really importantly, that their vetting process is, you know, to stand for public
21:19office, there is a level of credibility, honesty and integrity.
21:24And we've seen that repeatedly failed by both the Greens and reform.
21:27I mean, in the Labour manifesto, it also says economic stability.
21:31Would you describe what's happened in the last two years, economic stability?
21:35Well, Trish can talk more about that.
21:37Very, very happy to.
21:38We've seen growth in every quarter.
21:41Growth in every quarter compared to the Sunak recession, of course, and inflation at 11.1%.
21:46The last government left people, for the first time in our recent recorded history, worse
21:51off at the end of their period than they inherited.
21:55And more importantly, the British people rejected them at the last election, thumping them out
22:02of office as a result.
22:03You are correct.
22:04We have seen global treasuries increase over the last three months as a result of the conflict
22:09in Iran.
22:10Incidentally, a decision that Kemi and Nigel would have gone into offensively.
22:14That is now having ripple effects across the economy.
22:17We can see that at the petrol pumps when you go.
22:19You can see that in the cost of energy increasing.
22:22Of course, this is not a conflict we wanted to go into, but we are all going to suffer for
22:26that.
22:27And just lastly, that is the reason why Ed Miliband's agenda to decouple us from oil and
22:33gas is so important because we have been on this rollercoaster ride for the last 30 years
22:39of relying on oil and gas prices.
22:41We suffered it in Ukraine when the invasion happened there, and we're suffering it now.
22:46And a renewable energy future with nuclear as a partner is a sensible forward step.
22:52And actually, that is, again, part of the agenda of this Labour government, that within
22:55five years, we will be in a position to say that our energy is cleaner, our communities
23:00are cleaner as a result, and we are decoupling from oil and gas, which, again, the Conservative
23:05party seem to be beholden to.
23:07This is about the future.
23:08And in my view, it is reform.
23:10It is Labour.
23:11That's the decision coming in the next election.
23:13That's the decision in the make-it-field by-election.
23:15But the party seems split.
23:15How can any of these, you know, what you described, how can we see stability there when the party
23:20seems torn?
23:22So, at the moment, there's no leadership election.
23:25There has been this week an unfortunate situation where someone challenged the leader to say
23:30that we need to improve.
23:31I completely agree with that.
23:33We need to look at our communications.
23:34Randy Burnham's just barred.
23:35As explained earlier, we have fractured our coalitions.
23:39Part of our coalition has gone to the Greens.
23:40A lot of it hasn't gone to the Conservatives.
23:42It's gone to reform.
23:44And therefore, we have to build that coalition back again.
23:46My argument is that two years is too soon.
23:49And we need to see that over five years.
23:51And I started this show by talking about...
23:53So, there'll be no leadership contest, is what you're saying.
23:56In my view, we need to get on with the job.
23:59Keep the waiting list down at Medway Maritime.
24:01So, there could still be one.
24:02Growth in the economy, controlling migration, and delivering for people on cost of living.
24:07And in my view, the King's speech this week, I know it was overshadowed,
24:11talked about all of these priorities.
24:13And if you're watching the show tonight, those are the people's priorities.
24:16And I'm confident, if we can get that through, this sideshow needs to end now.
24:20We need to move on.
24:22I mean, all evening, we've been talking about the Greens, the threat of reform.
24:26Surely, for all three of you, this is the end of two-party politics as we know it.
24:31Well, I mean, I think that's why we're getting up every day.
24:34That's why Kemi is fighting so hard.
24:36I think that's why we've got a very clear plan of what we articulated this week in the Shadow King
24:41speech.
24:42And, of course, also why Kemi's got the best favourability ratings of any leader.
24:47I mean, I understand here what Tristan's saying here about it being a straight fight between reform and Labour.
24:52But I actually don't think it is.
24:53If you look at most of the polling, it's going to be a three- or four-way battle.
24:56And we're probably going to end up at the moment, if a general election was held tomorrow,
24:59with a hung parliament, probably with a splattering of different parties.
25:02But what we need is we need strong leadership.
25:05And at the moment, we're not getting that from this Labour Party that's more focused now on fighting itself,
25:09and a few weeks ago was more focused on defending Peter Mandelson than getting on and delivering for ordinary people.
25:16Vince, did you defend Peter Mandelson?
25:18No, I think I was on this sofa where I said I would never have given him a job in
25:21the first place.
25:21But I'm not the Prime Minister.
25:23The people of Kent are probably quite happy about the fact that I'm not the Prime Minister.
25:27And so from that perspective, that has been a distraction as well.
25:30There's no doubt of that.
25:31And again, it's about making sure moving forward with the King's speech and the detail in there.
25:36That's, again, goes back to that point, that really frustrating point to say,
25:39actually, I wish we spent the last 26 minutes talking about the King's speech.
25:44Instead, we're talking about the internal machinations of the Labour Party.
25:49Trish is right, there's no leadership election yet.
25:51I hope there isn't one.
25:52And if there is one, we'll see what happens.
25:55And you're back, if there's a new leader, you'll back them too.
25:58Look, no one is going to vote for me because I'm having a row with my leader.
26:01Every two minutes in Westminster.
26:03Nobody wins from that.
26:04I want to be making the best case for us here in Medway with the Prime Minister,
26:08whoever the Prime Minister is in one sense.
26:10And I think, look, Keir's got the mandate of the public.
26:13He's got a clear mandate from two years ago when Trish was elected,
26:17along with more than 400 other colleagues.
26:19And we should be getting on with the job of delivering for the people here in Medway,
26:22Kent and across the country.
26:24George, for the time we've got left, you look eager to jump in.
26:26Well, I just think this is deluded, isn't it?
26:28I mean, with this group of Labour MPs, we're not going to deliver anything.
26:31And I think time will tell exactly whether or not Andy Burnham, Angela Rayner,
26:35Wes Streeting or maybe even Trish Osborne is going to be able to lead the country forward.
26:38But we'll have to wait and see.
26:39Anything we should know, Trish?
26:40Well, I'm not planning on running for leadership.
26:43So I'm very happy on the Public Accounts Committee.
26:45But, look, I started the show with the fact that we are delivering on people's priorities,
26:50weighting this down 20% at Medway Maritime, growth in every quarter,
26:53which is going to have an impact on cost of living.
26:55We are dealing with migration, which is the biggest concern.
26:58And I have to cut you off.
26:59That's all we've got time for.
27:00Good night.
27:01See you on the Kent tonight.
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