- 2 years ago
Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Gabriel Morris joined by Claire Pearsall a Conservative commentator from Sevenoaks and Labour's Cllr Shane Mochrie-Cox, Deputy Leader of Gravesham Borough Council.
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00:00Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live here on KMTV.
00:29I'm Gabriel Morris.
00:30Coming up, it's been another bad week for the Conservatives.
00:33Just before Prime Minister's questions this week, the Dover MP, Natalie Elphick, defected
00:38to the Labour Party, shocking both sides of the House.
00:41And it comes off the back of the local elections, where across Kent, Conservatives have made
00:45losses with the Liberal Democrats taking control of Tunbridge Wells Borough Council.
00:50But first, let's start with what's turned out to be the biggest political story of the
00:54week.
00:55The Conservatives were just saying quitting the Conservative Party, joining Labour benches,
01:00saying the government is failing to keep borders safe and secure.
01:03Natalie Elphick says the Prime Minister has broken promises and abandoned pledges, and
01:08says the modern Labour Party looks to the future.
01:11Local Conservatives have described Miss Elphick's defection as disloyal, with others saying
01:15it's like being stabbed in the back.
01:17I warmly welcome the new Labour MP for Dover to these benches.
01:24For a moment, the Dover MP defected to Labour, just as Prime Minister's questions began.
01:30The Tory MP for Dover, on the front line of the small boats crisis, says the Prime Minister
01:36cannot be trusted with our borders, and joins Labour.
01:41What is the point of this failed government staggering on?
01:45Well, Mr Speaker, can I actually join him in welcoming his newest MP for Blackpool?
01:53And in the Prime Minister's response, nothing on Natalie Elphick leaving his party.
01:59It's another blow for the Conservatives, following huge losses in last week's local election.
02:05Congratulating all new and paying tribute to all former councillors, PCCs and mayors
02:09across the country.
02:11And in Dover, the defection has been the talk of the town.
02:15The Conservative Party are finished, unfortunately.
02:18The party wasn't any good, but I don't hold up much hope for Mike Tathaiver.
02:24Labour aren't very good, haven't been since the Blair years.
02:29Going into the general election, do you know who you would be voting?
02:31Labour.
02:32Labour, for definite.
02:34I think from my personal point of view, I just want to change.
02:37I think it's wrong.
02:39She probably knows because of the situation, what happened with the 800 workers that were
02:45sacked, that this seat could possibly go to Labour.
02:49So she's probably jumping ship before it sinks.
02:52That's the way I look at it.
02:55The town has been at the centre of many national stories.
02:58Here's Natalie Elphick being heckled two years ago following mass P&O sackings.
03:04And of course, Dover is one of the locations where asylum seekers head to.
03:08I mean, it's obvious, isn't it, that the Conservative Party are not handling it very well.
03:13It doesn't matter what side of the situation you sit on, everybody knows that now.
03:16So from that perspective, I can fully understand why she has made this move.
03:22Since I became Prime Minister, small boat crossings are down by a third.
03:26That's because we've doubled MCA funding.
03:28Back in the Commons this lunch, a more defensive Prime Minister referred to his pledge to stop
03:32the boats.
03:33And, Mr Speaker, when it comes to border control, there is a crucial difference between us.
03:40We want secure borders.
03:42Who's happy with open borders?
03:45The shock announcement now sees Kent with two Labour MPs.
03:48And a year ago, Dover District Council flipped to Labour.
03:51Well, I know her better as an opposition MP than I do as a current Labour MP, I'll be
03:57perfectly honest.
03:58I mean, I think the issue is not going to be perfectly honest.
04:00We welcome her.
04:01She's joined the Labour Party.
04:03And she's actually said that she believes quite rightly that we're the party that can
04:07take the country forward.
04:09I know and I have a lot of friends that will distrust her going forward, but I'm not aware
04:14that she's seeking to stand anywhere else.
04:17As PMQs finished, Nathalie Elphick walked out alongside her new Labour leader.
04:22But she's fought to stand down as an MP whenever the general election is called.
04:31Well, joining me on the sofa this week is Clare Pearsall, a Conservative from Seven
04:34Oaks and former Special Adviser to the Minister of Immigration and Labour Councillor Shane
04:39Rockery-Cox, who is the deputy leader of Grecian Borough Council.
04:43Welcome both to the show.
04:44Clare, I'll come to you first.
04:46It's been a pretty crazy week in politics.
04:49Nathalie Elphick leaving the Conservative Party, going to Labour.
04:54She's pretty far to the right of the political spectrum.
04:57Did you ever see this coming?
04:58No, not at all.
05:00And it doesn't matter who you speak to.
05:01Shane and I have been having a chat about it.
05:04Nobody on any side saw it coming.
05:06Now this is Nathalie Elphick, who is a member, was a member of the ERG, which is a very right-wing
05:12group within the Conservative Party, and also found a member of the New Conservatives, who
05:16were also fairly right-wing in their views.
05:19So to think that she had gone to Labour rather than someone, say, like Reform, I think came
05:24as a huge surprise to all of us.
05:25Do you think she actually believes in Labour policies, or is this just a stunt?
05:30I can't see that she can.
05:32When you look at all of the things that Nathalie Elphick has put out over the past four years,
05:36they have been so diametrically opposed to Labour's policies on anything, but especially
05:42on immigration.
05:43So I can't see how you can square that away at all and cross the floor to go to a party
05:48who you have just laid into for the past four years.
05:51Shane, you've got another Labour MP now in the county.
05:56Do you welcome her vote to the party?
05:58The only way Labour's ever going to win a general election is when people change their
06:02mind.
06:03So I welcome Nathalie to the party.
06:04She's clearly changed her mind, but actually she's just one of several people.
06:08We've got to change the mind across the country.
06:10Several thousands of people have got to do it.
06:11So if Nathalie's changed her mind, welcome, but we've got to convince far more than just
06:15one person to change their mind to come to Labour, and we're on that mission, on that
06:19journey to do that.
06:20So far it's working.
06:21If we've managed to convince Nathalie Elphick to join the party, which is fantastic, we've
06:25got a lot more to do and to take more than just one vote.
06:29We've got to win the entire country over to this.
06:33It just feels a little bit like Keir Starmer would take these people for the numbers, because
06:38how can you put somebody in your party who has been absolutely against everything?
06:44When you look at the Marcus Rashford campaign for free school meals, for example, and Nathalie
06:48Elphick was against that and suggested that he might like to stick to football, whereas
06:52Keir Starmer's Labour Party believed in it very much and fought for that to come through,
06:58and rightly so in my view.
07:00I just feel I don't know what Labour gets from this other than sheer numbers, and it
07:05does feel a little bit like almost, yes, we'll take everything just to have a pop back at
07:11the Conservative Party.
07:12I don't think it is.
07:13I don't think it's as cut and dry.
07:14Don't forget only last week, the week before, Dan Porter joined and crossed the floor because
07:19of the NHS, and he's believed that things need to change in that regard.
07:23Nathalie Elphick's come over because she doesn't think that the Conservative Party meet the
07:27current needs and concerns of stopping the boats, or indeed housing, which is actually
07:30her really big passion in this regard.
07:34She's not staying as the MP for Dover, so she's not been promised any other position,
07:39so this is, when someone crosses the floor of the House, you do wonder if it's to save
07:43their career in this way.
07:46Nathalie Elphick has not saved her career by doing this, and will be stepping down as
07:49the MP, and we've got Mike Tabb as our candidate in Dover still, and will continue to hopefully
07:54be a really good MP, subject to the will of the people.
07:57Shane, do you think, ever how long Nathalie is a Labour MP for, because as we say, she
08:01is going to be most likely stepping down, Mike Tabb taking, well, if he is elected as
08:05the next MP for Dover, do you think Nathalie Elphick would make a good, will make a good
08:11Labour MP in Dover?
08:13She's now got to represent, she has to represent the people of Dover anyway.
08:16When you elect a Member of Parliament, you do not elect a party, political person, that
08:22can only represent those of a particular party.
08:24You elect a representative to represent your entire constituents.
08:27Nathalie has had to do that as the MP for Dover, as a Conservative, she will have to
08:31go and do that as a Labour MP as well.
08:33You are a Member of Parliament first, and party second, and that is what has to happen
08:38for any elected politician.
08:40So she'll have to carry out that role, as she has done, and will continue to do so,
08:43one hopes.
08:44It feels very disingenuous though, to the electorate, who voted for a Conservative candidate
08:50in the 2019 election, which happened to be Nathalie Elphick, she signed up and stood
08:55on that platform as a Conservative, and it feels like she is just letting her electorate
08:59down by saying, whatever you voted for, don't worry, I've gone the other way, but it's okay,
09:03don't worry about it, because it will all be fine.
09:05I really think in these circumstances, if you are going to fundamentally change your
09:08party in this way, there should be a by-election.
09:12We elect Members of Parliament, we elect Councillors, we don't elect Presidents, we don't elect
09:17people on party basis.
09:18We elect the individual, that's how the democracy system works.
09:22But only because she was in the party that the people of Dover and Deal believed in the
09:27policies that she was selling at that time.
09:29They could have voted for the Labour candidate, but they chose not to.
09:32So it would look at that point as though the majority of those people wanted a Conservative
09:37Member of Parliament.
09:38So to suddenly change and stand up there with a red rosette and say, don't worry folks,
09:41it's all the same, doesn't cut it.
09:44I think the people of Dover are going to get a choice in the very, very near future to
09:47have their say and I hope they choose Mike Tapp to represent them as their excellent
09:52MP.
09:53Well, the Labour leader was down in Dover today unveiling his plans to deal with small
10:00boat crossings.
10:01It's important to say he didn't say to stop small boat crossings.
10:04He is promising something called a border security command with counter-terror powers
10:09ending the Rwanda scheme.
10:11Claire, do you think his plans will work?
10:14His plans are actually incredibly similar to what is in place.
10:18We have the special boat command service or something along those lines.
10:23I forget the words now.
10:24We come up with so many iterations on how to deal with the boat crisis.
10:29But what Keir Starmer has put forward is essentially what we have in place at the moment.
10:33I think with the added benefit of further MI5 officers being embedded.
10:39But until you see that real detail come out, yes, it's a nice idea.
10:44Yes, it's already in place.
10:46It's not working.
10:47It is one of Rishi Sunak's five pledges to stop the boats.
10:50That hasn't happened.
10:51Do you think voters actually care about that at all?
10:55I think the voters care that the government has thrown a lot of money at something which
10:59hasn't worked.
11:00And I think it depends where you are in the county as to how much this affects you and
11:04how much this is going to be your number one priority.
11:07Now I live in northwest Kent.
11:09Yes, there's a little bit of conversation about it, but not very much.
11:13But I think as you go down the county, that landscape changes.
11:17And Shane, what do you think needs to be done on this issue to tackle it and to deal with it?
11:22Well, first, the only boats the Conservatives managed to stop is the Gravesend Tilby Ferry.
11:26That's the only thing that's managed to be stopped so far.
11:29It's an issue that needs to be tackled.
11:30But it needs to be tackled because what it is about is those criminal gangs that are
11:34trafficking individuals.
11:35And you've got to remember that is at the heart of those.
11:38There are people there and they are being trafficked by the criminal gangs.
11:41That is the thing that needs to be tackled to stop the boats you need to tackle and smash
11:44those criminal gangs.
11:45If you can get to the heart of that and then sort out the backlog in the immigration system
11:49that we currently have, we've had a huge set of immigration rules for some considerable
11:53period of time.
11:54Well, we're going to have to go to a break now.
11:55We'll carry on talking about this after break as we continue to discuss local elections
11:59as they happen this week.
15:11Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live here on KMTV.
15:15Well, it's been a week since votes were counted in Kent.
15:20Following the polls, Conservatives have lost nearly 20 seats in two of our districts following
15:24last week's local elections.
15:26Liberal Democrats have managed to take Tunbridge Wells Borough Council out of no overall control.
15:30It can't be said for Maidstone where there's a nearly equal split between the parties.
15:35Although the Conservatives held the Police and Crime Commissioner, it's been a bad weekend
15:39for the party, as I've been finding out.
15:44A mixed bag for the parties this weekend across Kent.
15:47Liberal Democrats taking control of Tunbridge Wells.
15:50But in Maidstone, the council remains under no overall control.
15:54Before, there was a Conservative leader.
15:56The party retained the largest number of seats, but losing 12 councillors has dashed any hopes
16:02of a majority.
16:03We live in the borough, we work in the borough, so I'm really proud of our team.
16:08Obviously, today was not an outright victory for us, but we were not in a majority administration
16:13anyway.
16:14Parties will now be scurrying to find coalitions to form the biggest administration.
16:20It looks like we've got the biggest political grouping.
16:22We've got ten Greens, four Independents that we work closely with, so we're going to form
16:27a Green and Independent political grouping on the council.
16:31I think that makes us the biggest group, which means we'll be in a good position to negotiate.
16:38Matthew Richard Scott is duly elected as Police and Crime Commissioner.
16:42Some success for the Conservatives as they manage to cling on to control in the Police
16:46and Crime Commissioner elections.
16:49We deliver.
16:50Conservative Police and Crime Commissioners deliver for their communities.
16:53I'm delighted that we've been able to retain so many Police and Crime Commissioners.
16:56We've bucked the trend nationally.
16:58We've been able to secure more PCCs than I think maybe some people anticipated, and that's
17:03a message that we can take forward.
17:05Conservatives can be trusted on law and order.
17:07We can be trusted on crime, and Labour and the Liberal Democrats have still got some
17:11work to do.
17:12But Matthew Scott lost almost 14% of his share since 2021.
17:17But I think as we've seen across the country, there's a turning of the tide to Labour, the
17:21positivity and hope that it offers, and we've seen that in this election.
17:25And if you look at those kind of coastal and estuary communities in the Medway towns, in
17:30Gravesham, here in Gravesham where we are, out across Thanet and in Dover and Deal, we're
17:36seeing a huge turn.
17:38We won the popular votes in those constituencies.
17:41The next time most of us vote will be in a general election.
17:44It's hard to make direct comparisons from these results, but they do support polling
17:49for a Conservative washout.
17:51Gabriel Morris in Kent.
17:53Well, still joining me on the sofa is Claire Pearsall, a Conservative from Sevenoaks, and
17:58Councillor Shane Mockrey-Cox, who is the Deputy Leader of Gravesham Borough Council.
18:02I'll come to you, Shane.
18:03We were both at the Police and Crime Commissioner election count on Sunday.
18:08I know you were working very closely with the Labour candidate, Lenny.
18:12Big progress for the Labour Party.
18:15Didn't quite get bare for sheer.
18:18What do you think went wrong for the Labour issue not to get over the mark?
18:21I think it was a very high-water mark to try and overcome.
18:2457% of the vote the Conservatives got in the last election, now down to 44%.
18:30And we got to 33% in this.
18:31And as Lenny said in that piece, and I was his agent, as you quite rightly say, we won
18:36the popular vote in quite a few constituencies, constituencies that we need to win here in
18:40Kent in order to form the government, including in Gravesham, my home area, but also in Fannett
18:45and in Dover and in Canterbury.
18:47So there's definite progress.
18:49But of course, Kent's 1.9 million people, approximately, in a very big area.
18:53So there's a way still to go to get the whole of Kent.
18:56But certainly, progress certainly has been made.
18:59Of course, Lenny being my good friend, he's very good, an excellent person.
19:02He would have been a fantastic Police and Crime Commissioner.
19:05And Claire, Conservatives lost almost 20 seats during the local elections.
19:11Only two districts were up for vote.
19:13But does this come as much a surprise to you?
19:16No.
19:17Put it very simply, I mean, I'm one of those very dull people that stayed up and watched
19:22the results coming in on the Friday morning.
19:25So let's think that this is a long weekend of election results for everybody.
19:29But it was quite interesting to look at what is happening within the County of Kent, because
19:34everybody's eyes were elsewhere.
19:36And Maidstone Borough Council looks to be a bit of a mess.
19:40I'm very pleased that Matthew Scott was re-elected as the Police and Crime Commissioner.
19:43He's done an exceptional job.
19:46But it is incredibly hard to see how you can get the momentum coming into another election
19:51to get people to back Conservatives.
19:53These were elections for lower-tier councils, so for things like bin collections, litter
19:58and improving town centres.
20:00Do you think those issues were really thought of when people went to the polls, or do you
20:04think it was actually national politics were at play there?
20:07I think it's pretty much a bit of both.
20:09And what we saw throughout the country, if you move away from Kent for a moment, if you
20:14look at what's happening up in the Midlands and places like Oldham, you've actually got
20:19a lot of independents standing on a pro-Palestine ticket, and you move sort of down the country.
20:24People are angry.
20:25People don't want the Conservatives necessarily.
20:27They're not massively keen on supporting Labour, and they're going off into looking at the
20:33Green Party, they're looking at the Liberal Democrats or independents, depending on where
20:36they are.
20:37There is an awful lot of anger.
20:38But I sometimes see the tribal politics that we've had in the past isn't necessarily there
20:43these days.
20:45Coming to that, Shane, do you think Labour's stance on the Israel-Gaza conflict will play
20:49an issue when we go into the general election?
20:52We do see pro-Palestinian protests across many parts of Kent.
20:57I think it will be one of a series of issues.
20:59People don't vote normally just on one issue.
21:01They vote for a range of issues for their families, for themselves, for their communities.
21:06To boil the entire election down to one issue, I think, wouldn't be right, but it wouldn't
21:11just be right for the country.
21:12We've actually got to look at the whole picture, and I hope really well that the people will
21:18judge the whole package of policies and then put their X in their box accordingly.
21:22Now, these elections were pretty much between Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives in
21:28the two districts which were up for election, Liberal Democrats taking control of Tunbridge
21:34Wells.
21:35Now, do you think the Liberal Democrats candidate could do it, maybe, in Tunbridge Wells in
21:40the general election, Claire?
21:42I think there is always a possibility.
21:45I think you should never say never in any election.
21:47Now, I would obviously like to see a Conservative MP returned.
21:51However, we need, as a party, to be able to give people those policies that they're going
21:56to turn out and vote for, because as we saw with the Police and Crime Commissioner election,
22:00it was not a great turnout.
22:02So I think, hopefully, come the next election, the party has got its act together and has
22:06put a set of policies out there that is going to excite people.
22:09We want people to come out and vote for the right reasons.
22:12What policies does your party need to bring to get people to change their opinions?
22:16They're not going to be taking any lectures off of me, but I think that we need to look
22:20at housing.
22:21I think that is the one area that we have ignored as a party and it's just to our detriment.
22:26We also need to look at healthcare.
22:28What are we doing for the NHS?
22:30People want to be able to go and see their GP without it being a problem and also schools.
22:34The education system needs to be spot on, especially in Kent.
22:38We are very, very lucky that we have a selective system, should you wish to access it, but
22:42all schools need to be brought up to an outstanding result.
22:46On housing there, you're from the Sevenoaks District, 93% of that land is Greenbelt land
22:51and we know that Sevenoaks District Council is going through their local planned consultation
22:55at the moment.
22:57Are housing quotas too high from the government?
23:02It's always very difficult because there are places where the Greenbelt is going to be
23:06a majority, but having said that, there is green space, not necessarily Greenbelt that
23:12could be used and I think that's what the district and certainly when I was still elected
23:15to it, that is exactly what we were looking at.
23:18How best can we use the green space, even if we did eat into some of the Greenbelt,
23:24you can do it in such a way.
23:25So no, I don't think housing targets are necessarily too high.
23:28I think that the problem is with the planning system and that is in urgent need of reform.
23:34Shane, is housing going to be a big issue do you think in Gravesham, whatever the general
23:38election may be?
23:39I think housing is a big issue anyway and I think it's not just about making housing
23:43available, private housing, I think housing tenure is important as well.
23:48When we had, before Right to Buy, there were 12,500 council homes in Gravesham, now there's
23:515,500 and we've got a few thousand on the waiting list.
23:54Imagine if we had just even half our council housing back, then some of our housing issues
23:59would be eliminated.
24:00This will be replicated everywhere.
24:02So actually, it's not just how many houses, it's the type of houses and making sure the
24:06housing is affordable.
24:07It shouldn't be to the highest bidder, it should be based on the issues of need as well.
24:11So it is, but it's about how we tackle that in a fair way, not just, and I'm glad to see
24:17we're talking about greybelt, as it's officially called, well done Claire, I'm grateful for
24:21the conversion to the greybelt nature, because there are parts of the Greenbelt that are
24:26car parks or are not quite fit for purpose that could be repurposed into really good
24:31housing for local people.
24:32Yeah, I don't think we can look at it as a complete shrine that we need to worship at.
24:37So I think we need to be realistic in what your housing needs and expectations are for
24:41a district and if you do need to step into that, then I think you should, don't be closed
24:45off to those ideas.
24:47Now we don't know when the general election is going to be.
24:50We know the working theory, as Rishi Sunak would say, is the second half of this year.
24:55We're heading towards that.
24:56The local elections are over.
24:57I'm going to ask you both, when do you think the general election should be?
24:59Claire, when do you think it should be?
25:00I mean, this is really bad, isn't it?
25:02Because I originally said May.
25:04I remember you telling me before.
25:06Exactly.
25:07So that's on the record.
25:08But right, for my second prediction, I think 14th of November.
25:13Would it be a winter election though?
25:14It would be a winter election, which will be awful for all of us, but that's when I
25:18think it will be.
25:19What about you, Shay?
25:20I think it will be as long as it can be now.
25:22I think it was going to be in the summer.
25:23I think everyone was predicting June, July, I think beforehand, but I think it's been
25:28put off now thanks to these results, and I think it will end up being towards the winter
25:31election that I don't think anybody in Lesotho wants, if you're a political campaigner.
25:35But we will go out there, I'm sure, on the streets to put our message to the people.
25:39And finally, Claire, Labour are 30 points ahead.
25:42Do you think the Conservatives can close that gap before the general election?
25:46Yes, I do.
25:47I mean, all right, there are polls.
25:50These aren't good, and they haven't been good for some time.
25:52So I'll stick that caveat on it.
25:53But I think that whenever you come up to an election, the polls will narrow naturally.
26:0030 points ahead is enormous, and I also don't think it would be great for democracy should
26:05that result come out, and you are only left with 13 Conservatives.
26:09To not have a proper opposition to hold you to account is not a good thing.
26:13Well, there we go.
26:14We're out of time.
26:15It's been a pretty long week in politics.
26:17A lot has happened, maybe by the next politics show.
26:20We'll know when the general election is going to be.
26:22You never know.
26:23But that's all we've got time for.
26:25Thank you both for coming on the show tonight.
26:27We'll be back soon.
26:28Abbie Hook will be here with Ken tonight, straight after the break, but there'll be
26:34more throughout the evening.
26:35Good night.
26:52Good night.
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