- 1 day ago
Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by Conservative Kent County Councillor Harry Rayner and Councillor Charles Gibson, Liberal Democrat for Faversham.
They discussed the government axing Police and Crime Commissioners and Kent County Council's reaction to the BBC Trump speech edit.
They discussed the government axing Police and Crime Commissioners and Kent County Council's reaction to the BBC Trump speech edit.
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00:00Welcome to the Kemp Politics Show on KMTV.
00:27I'm Rob Bailey and it's been a dramatic week.
00:30Police and crime commissioners have been scrapped.
00:33Kent County Council revealed a £50 million overspend on adult social care
00:37and its leader was branded Captain Chaos by firefighters.
00:41All of that to come.
00:42But first, a crisis at the BBC.
00:45A row over an edited clip of Donald Trump has cost its director general
00:49and their head of news their jobs.
00:51In the aftermath, Kent reform councillors pulled out of a documentary
00:55claiming that a bond of trust with the BBC had been broken.
00:59Here's KCC leader Lyndon Kemkaren.
01:02I have a genuine dilemma.
01:05Laura Koonsberg is making a documentary about the rise of reform
01:08and I've had her documentary crew following me about for the last month,
01:13filming my speeches, filming me in meetings, doing interviews with me.
01:17How do I know I can trust what is going to happen in that final edit?
01:23Will they splice together things that I've said to make me look bad?
01:28Will they try and misrepresent me?
01:30I've given them a lot of access and they want to come down
01:33and do some more filming later this week
01:34and I genuinely don't know whether I should allow them in anymore
01:39because the BBC has broken the trust of the entire nation.
01:42But what does all of this mean for Kent's voters?
01:46Well, here with me is Harry Rayner,
01:48leader of the Conservative Group at Kent County Council
01:50and Charles Gibson, Liberal Democrat for Fabersham.
01:54Thank you so much for joining us.
01:55And there's been obviously an awful lot going on with this story.
01:57One billion dollar suit threats from the US president
02:01against the BBC and all the rest of it.
02:02But that bond of trust comment that was being made there by the KCC leader
02:07really gets to the heart of this.
02:08Do you agree that a bond of trust between journalists and politicians
02:12has been broken here?
02:14It's clearly an issue.
02:16I mean, I'm personally quite surprised that Reform are attacking the BBC
02:19that, to my mind, seems to give them wall-to-wall coverage non-stop.
02:22They seem to be close allies and supporters of them.
02:25We in the Liberal Democrats have long campaigned for the BBC to do better
02:28on its political balance and justice in that picture.
02:32You know, if the Liberal Democrats have 72 MPs, Reform have five.
02:35And yet, if you were to watch the BBC, you'd never work that maths out.
02:38Nigel Farage never seems to be off our screens.
02:40We seem far fewer of our elected Liberal Democrats.
02:44So, for me, there is a real issue with the BBC's approach to political balance.
02:48But we need impartial news and reporting more than ever
02:53with the colossal amount of disinformation, misinformation out there
02:56from bad actors abroad and at home.
02:59It's more important than ever that we have reliable journalists
03:02and reliable news sources nationally and locally.
03:05You know, we're really lucky in Kent to have you guys at the KM Group,
03:08but also BBC South East and BBC Kent working really hard
03:11to keep our democracy vibrant in Kent.
03:14And that's an important part of this, isn't it?
03:16The transparency.
03:17I'm sure you spend a lot of your time around County Hall.
03:19You may have seen the BBC cameras following your Reform colleagues around.
03:23Well, what?
03:23You're not colleagues, you're Reform fellow councillors around.
03:27Do you think that there's a problem here when Reform pull out of a documentary like this?
03:32Is transparency being damaged?
03:34Well, you know, I found that clip at the top of the programme there
03:39with Lyndon Kim Carr really interesting.
03:42Here is a former BBC journalist and correspondent
03:45who's turning around and saying that she cannot trust the BBC.
03:50Having invited them in at the very beginning of her regime,
03:55bringing them in into the council chamber even,
03:59not undertaken before,
04:01and now she finds she can't trust them.
04:04Well, you know, this actually goes not just as far as
04:07the relationship between Reform and the media,
04:11but it goes, I think, also to the difficulties
04:14that Lyndon Kim Carr is having.
04:16She's having difficulty with her own members.
04:18What have we got now?
04:19Nine, is it either expelled or suspended?
04:25It's not just a matter of trust with the media,
04:28it's a trust of the leadership of KCC.
04:33This is not just about a relationship with the media,
04:36it's about a relationship with the public, isn't it?
04:37If you refuse to speak to journalists anymore,
04:40and I should say at this point,
04:42we asked Reform, as we do every week,
04:44to come onto the show.
04:45They haven't come on,
04:46and an open invitation at any point if they want to.
04:49But if you stop talking to journalists,
04:51effectively you stop talking to the public, don't you?
04:53Absolutely.
04:54You know, we have a much more complicated media system
04:57than we used to,
04:57but traditional media plays a really important role.
05:00There are loads and loads of residents across the country,
05:02I know many in my ward in Faversham,
05:05who are not digitally accessing news.
05:07They're not on social media.
05:09They do get their news from local TV,
05:10local radio, local newspapers.
05:12And if politicians refuse to speak to those people,
05:15we're cutting off a huge segment of our society
05:17who deserve to be engaged just as much as those people
05:20who are scrolling on Twitter or X,
05:22or reading news on Facebook.
05:24And coming to your point about the transparency there,
05:27I mean, one of the things that was really interesting this week
05:29is that a deputy cabinet member at KCC from Environment,
05:32Dean Burns, has disappeared from the front benches,
05:34sitting on the back benches, and no-one really knows why.
05:39And do you think that that's...
05:41Does the public have a right to know that?
05:42Is that a part of this problem as well?
05:44Oh, I couldn't agree more.
05:46It goes to the lack of transparency within reform.
05:49All of this has tried to be hushed up, covered up,
05:52don't tell anyone.
05:53But, you know, going back to the original point you made there,
05:56when I stand for election, in whatever position,
05:59as a parish councillor, as a county councillor,
06:02or as a borough councillor,
06:03and I've served in all three,
06:05I expect...
06:07I expect to turn to, for the media,
06:10if they want to interview me,
06:13if they want to ask me questions,
06:14as I do for any member of the public who elect me.
06:17That goes with the job.
06:19If you put yourself forward and you are elected,
06:22then you're the representative of the people
06:24for whom you are elected,
06:26and it's part of the job these days
06:28to turn to, like this morning,
06:30and come along and answer questions from you
06:32for the benefit of the public at large.
06:36And the situation now with reform
06:39simply goes to the root of the issue with them.
06:41They weren't prepared.
06:43They are naive in their approach to this,
06:46naive by ignoring the media, for example.
06:49They are wholly unprepared for...
06:52They were and remain wholly unprepared for office.
06:56And the evidence of all this
06:57is the numbers of people
06:58that are being expelled
07:01and suspended from reform.
07:03Charles,
07:05one of the interesting things we've seen this week
07:07with the bigger kind of crisis in the BBC
07:08is Donald Trump,
07:10obviously the most prominent, powerful politician
07:12in the world,
07:13threatening to sue the BBC,
07:15putting an enormous amount of political pressure on them.
07:17If he was to try and sue for an amount of money
07:20that he's been talking about,
07:21a billion dollars,
07:22that would have an enormous consequence
07:24on the BBC's ability to do its job.
07:27And we're talking about something
07:27that is an existential crisis
07:29to our national publisher.
07:31Do we see that as political interference?
07:34Do we see that as an attempt
07:35to kind of reshape British democracy from America?
07:39I think we've got to be really concerned
07:41about these threats to our BBC
07:42and the nature of our local democracies
07:45and our journalism.
07:47You know, it is really important
07:48that we protect that at all costs.
07:50You know, it is far from perfect.
07:52I already listed some of my complaints about it,
07:54but it's the best we've got.
07:55And it is our obligation
07:57as politicians locally and nationally
07:58to stand up for the BBC and protect it.
08:02But there's certainly some attempts
08:04to interfere from over the pond.
08:07Personally, I fail to see how there can be a case.
08:10Donald Trump did win that election,
08:11so he clearly didn't lose out financially
08:14or politically on the basis of a clip,
08:16which was clearly an error of judgment.
08:18But the impact in America
08:19are clearly pretty limited.
08:21Were you surprised that reform
08:22were echoing Donald Trump's language
08:24in the statements that they've given this week
08:27in attacking the BBC?
08:29Not really.
08:31You know, for me,
08:32this is not just an isolated issue.
08:35You can take the whole Palestinian reporting issue as well.
08:40For me, it's quite clear that there are...
08:43It isn't just the odd correspondent
08:45who is giving difficulties,
08:47the odd people who spliced tapes here and there.
08:51The fact is that the BBC as a whole
08:54has clearly lost its ethos.
08:57It's clearly gone astray.
09:00And frankly, for me,
09:01it wants really significant reform.
09:04And I have to be perfectly frank with you
09:05and say how the...
09:07I really don't see how they justify
09:10continuing with the licence fee.
09:12For me, that's a text by another name on TV.
09:15It's an interesting thing.
09:16Obviously, there's been talk about
09:17the fact that former Conservative
09:19kind of linked people
09:21have been involved in
09:21in some of this kind of information
09:23coming out about how the splicing happened
09:25and trying to accuse
09:27of agitating against the BBC, essentially.
09:29I mean, we're now at a point
09:30where the BBC has to choose
09:31a new director general.
09:32It has to choose a new head of news.
09:34It's that big kind of...
09:36kind of rebirth of itself
09:38that you're both kind of talking about there.
09:40But to what extent
09:41should political influence play a part in that?
09:43Should Conservatives, Labour,
09:44even Liberal Democrats,
09:45play a part in shaping what the BBC is?
09:48Well, it will naturally come to that.
09:50All the while there is a tax-type situation,
09:54then politicians naturally get involved
09:57because they are the disbursers of...
10:00or the distributors of that tax,
10:04the so-called TV subscription,
10:08a licence fee.
10:10So, naturally, if you've got a situation
10:12where you are, in effect, taxing people,
10:15then politicians are bound to be involved.
10:17For my money,
10:18I would like to see it made completely independent.
10:22I don't think it should be a licence fee.
10:23I think I should be allowed to float away.
10:26After all, we've got Disney, Sky,
10:28any amount of...
10:29KM, for that matter,
10:32that you can turn to
10:33without any payment
10:36that you don't want to make.
10:37If I don't want to pay for Netflix,
10:39I don't pay for it.
10:41And I really don't see why
10:43the public should be taxed
10:44in the way that they are.
10:46This is a remnant of the past century,
10:48of the 20th century.
10:50We're 25 years into the 21st century,
10:52and this should be reviewed
10:54and, in my view, overhauled completely.
10:57Not a lot of time to come back on that,
10:58but all news being commercial?
11:00No, I have to disagree.
11:01There's a real value to a public service broadcaster,
11:03and the BBC is a great example of that.
11:06I do agree we've got to look
11:07at how the political balance is set up.
11:10It is clearly untenable
11:11for Robbie Gibb to remain in his post.
11:13He's clearly connected to this,
11:15was appointed by Boris Johnson
11:17at having served for Theresa May
11:18in a government now long forgotten.
11:21God knows how many prime ministers ago.
11:22We've lost count.
11:24So it is clearly important
11:25that we change that
11:26and reflect a more modern,
11:28practical political balance,
11:29but a public service broadcaster
11:30is of vital importance to our nation.
11:33Well, that's all we've got time for
11:34for the moment,
11:35which is time for a short break,
11:36but when we come back,
11:37we'll discuss why Kent's
11:38adult social care bill
11:40is £50 million in the red,
11:42and why did firefighters describe
11:44KCC's leader as Captain Chaos this week?
11:47Stay with us.
12:04Thank you very much.
20:37You're a part of the
20:59Obviously, under the Conservatives, when you faced financial difficulties in the past, there was a big review of waste disposal sites.
21:05There have been big reviews of the children's centres, areas where there is some flexibility in what the council can deliver, very controversially at the time.
21:13Are we thinking about some of those things being reopened again?
21:17Yes, in my view, quite possibly.
21:19You're quite right to say that the mandatory services, adults' services, children's services, SEND services, are pretty mandatory.
21:29But there are still savings to be made there if there was the competence in the administration to do it.
21:35But you're right. It's the discretionary services, all those that you've mentioned, but you haven't mentioned libraries, for example.
21:42I wouldn't be at all surprised to see libraries come under pressure.
21:46I certainly wouldn't go back to the point you made there.
21:49Household waste recycling centres is another that will be high on the list for review.
21:54And I think lots of others as well, including children's facilities, anything.
22:01And, of course, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see reductions in public transport.
22:07Public transport, buses in particular, is another area that you can imagine the Reform Administration asking the question,
22:16do we need to keep continuing to put over £20 million a year into bus subsidies?
22:22Charles, obviously, this is the dying days of the local authorities as we know them in Kent.
22:28The future is going to look very different.
22:29We're looking at unitary authorities being set up and taking responsibility for all of these things.
22:34Do you think that's going to solve these problems or just make them worse?
22:37I mean, we've seen from the business case that I've published that the financial benefits of this reform of local government are quite a long time coming.
22:46You know, it's going to take a number of years to pay back the disaggregation costs, the enormous debts accrued by councils.
22:51There certainly isn't a silver bullet that's going to solve those problems immediately.
22:54There are some benefits to having one council making all those decisions, but actually removing statutory responsibilities and moving those around means residents lose out on some of the stuff they really care about.
23:07Just last night at Swale Borough Council, we were talking about closing some of our public conveniences, a thing our residents are passionate about and really, really important, particularly to our most vulnerable residents.
23:16And that's not a statutory service at Swale Borough Council.
23:19It won't be at any future whatever size of Kent unitary we end up with.
23:24And so that pressure on those non-statutory services will continue however we're structured, whether it's libraries, public conveniences or whatever.
23:32Kent's always been regarded as one of the more, a very complex local authority, a very big local authority, geographically and in terms of population.
23:40And that's partly where this problem comes with adult social care, one authority having to care for so many people.
23:45But breaking that up, Harry, effectively loses some economies of scale, doesn't it?
23:49Does it help or does it hinder?
23:50Oh, it hinders.
23:51No question about it.
23:52And the more you break it up, the more the disaggregation costs are, but also the operating costs.
23:58If you have five unitary authorities or four unitary authorities, you end up with four directors of adult services, four children, and right the way through the whole gamut of local authority.
24:11The situation there is also that you lose out, and at the moment there is a cross-subsidy between West Kent and East Kent.
24:21East Kent are the largest drawers, East and North Kent are the largest drawers on adult services, on children's services and SEND.
24:29So there is, in effect, a cross-subsidy arrangement.
24:32And that's one of the reasons why the Home Office did not permit Kent to go on the fast track for local authority reform and devolution.
24:43Earlier this year in February, they pulled the plug at the last minute because they were very concerned as to whether an East Kent authority, for example, would be able to manage the unaccompanied asylum-seeking children problem,
24:56which at the moment Kent as a whole, the size it is, struggles with alone, but if it ended up in an East Kent authority with a much lower income,
25:08the impact on the Home Office and on those responsible there would put the sustainability of an East Kent council at threat.
25:20Well, obviously you're looking at a borough council level at the moment, but you would be kind of moving up to a unitary authority. Does that kind of thing worry you?
25:29Yeah, absolutely. It's a huge part of the decisions we're making.
25:32You know, Swale sits at the very heart of North Kent.
25:36We look in a number of different directions.
25:38Our residents face different ways, and it's a real concern, you know, whether our council tax would increase for our residents,
25:44whether we'd be able to afford to look after the children arriving unaccompanied and the children already in our county.
25:52You know, we've seen the rampant incompetence of reform.
25:55We mentioned the firefighters' problem.
25:57They had the exact same problem with the travel to school panel months ago, which they've still not resolved.
26:03You know, there are still children awaiting appeals to get their transport to school, and reformer failed to fill those seats.
26:08They've not solved those problems, and there's no reason to believe that we'd get through that quickly,
26:14and East Kent would really struggle financially in that situation.
26:17I mean, reform at KCC are really struggling at the moment.
26:21They've got rid of, I've forgotten whether it's nine or ten members now, through either suspension or expulsion.
26:28And those were amongst the active.
26:30If you look at the situation within reform, 57 people were elected last May, but there are only around 20 who are really active.
26:37Very little time there, so thank you so much for joining us.
26:39That's all from us here at Kent Politics Show, but stay tuned, because Kent Tonight is coming up next with all of the day's news,
26:44and we'll be back next week.
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