- 2 months ago
Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Ollie Leader, joined by the Labour Deputy Leader of Ashford Borough Council, Cllr Diccon Spain, and Conservative's Cllr George Hold of Dartford Borough Council.
They discussed Reform UK's suspensions within Kent County Council and the possibility of Virgin Trains bringing back international rail travel to Kent.
They discussed Reform UK's suspensions within Kent County Council and the possibility of Virgin Trains bringing back international rail travel to Kent.
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TVTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Kemp Politics Show here on KMTV,
00:28the show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:31I'm Olly Leader and it's been another bumper week for chaos at County Hall.
00:36Another suspension and threats of libel action from an expelled member
00:40capping off more sound and fury at Kent County Council.
00:44It was the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, who perhaps caused the biggest stir nationally,
00:49when she made a swipe at the Reform UK-run Council.
00:53Now, my opponents will tell you that they could do more.
00:57Reform. Who promise savings from our public services.
01:01And yet, in Kent County Council and councils they run across Britain,
01:06apparently they can't find a single penny.
01:08And instead, going to increase council tax for more than two million people.
01:12The Chancellor is clearly flailing. She hasn't got a clue.
01:16She pushed the budget back to the latest state possible,
01:18because things are really, really bad with the national finances.
01:21That does not bode well for us here at local government level.
01:24But we will deal with whatever we get, because we have to.
01:28We have no choice. And we have fantastic staff here at KCC.
01:32We have fantastic councillors who are looking at this.
01:35We will find a way through it.
01:38Well, we will dive into what the Chancellor said earlier this week
01:41in a tone-setting speech ahead of a budget many speculate
01:45could contain manifesto-breaking tax rises.
01:48But let's keep it local for now, because last week the rail regulator
01:52made a landmark decision that will allow Virgin Trains to operate continental train services.
01:58Now, we all know rival Eurostar hasn't stopped in Kent since March 2020.
02:03But there is renewed hope that a decision made by the Office of Rail and Road
02:07could change all of that.
02:09You may be seeing the recent report by Good Growth Foundation,
02:14who identified 2.2 billion could be generated over a five-year period
02:20if international trains return to South East.
02:24So, it is quite clear, so many businesses moved in in the past to Ashford
02:29and surrounding areas because of that connectivity.
02:32So, it is a huge impact economically for the region and nationally.
02:39But on its own, the Virgin is going to invest 700 million to get this service,
02:46for this service, and going to create so many new jobs as well.
02:52Well, joining me to discuss all of this is Labour Councillor Dickon Spain,
02:56the Deputy Leader of Ashford Borough Council and Councillor George Holt,
03:01the Conservative Lead Member for Youth at Dartford Borough Council.
03:04And Dickon, I have to go to you first.
03:06You've been relentlessly campaigning on all things Ashford International
03:10and Esfleet International.
03:12Is this actually going to help bring services back?
03:15Well, it's a fantastic big step forward.
03:18So, we're in a situation now where the monopoly that Eurostar has held for about 30 years now
03:24will be broken, which is great news.
03:26So, we will get another service in.
03:29Obviously, there is commitment to Ashford and Esfleet, but there is a condition to that,
03:34and that is that the stations are reopened.
03:37So, the next task really is to look at focusing on getting those stations reopened.
03:42We've got a fantastic commitment from Peter Lord-Hendy, the Rail Minister,
03:46who has said that the Government will champion the reopening of those stations.
03:51So, what we need to do is make sure that those words turn into actions.
03:56George, I'm sure that when you're commuting from Ebsfleet International,
04:00you see the empty ticket offices.
04:02What would this mean for residents in Dartford and in your ward?
04:06Well, Ollie, first off, I actually commute through Dartford, not Ebsfleet,
04:09but it's going to be fantastic for the whole borough and for Gravesham also.
04:14I think Dickon and I are going to be pretty much in alignment on this issue.
04:18It's an issue that's got huge cross-party support.
04:21Everyone's in favour of this.
04:22We have to get over the line and make sure it serves both Ashford and Ebsfleet.
04:27Virgin say that reopening the stations to be able to accommodate international services
04:32requires commitment and resources from all parties and operators.
04:36But if the stations are open, Virgin will stop in Kent.
04:39In plain speak, aren't Virgin effectively saying,
04:42if someone else pays for the stations, we'll stop there?
04:46I think, Ollie, that's a fair assessment.
04:49They are, in fact, saying that because they're very tightly financed
04:52on just getting the service going and running that service.
04:55So, they've gone to their shareholders or the prospective investors
04:58and said, look, this is the package we're going to put forward.
05:01And that is the thing that won them access to the depot.
05:05So, it won that Office of Road and Rail bid to get in there.
05:10But the investment to get it reopened is relatively small in comparison to the benefits
05:16that it can generate for Kent and the whole of South East.
05:20We are talking about £2.7 billion just on the visitor economy over five years.
05:26So, it's a huge amount of money coming in from a very small investment.
05:31We think, with my other hat on, I'm the spokesperson for Bring Back Eurotrains,
05:35the campaigning group trying to get services back.
05:38We think that an investment of about £4 million will get, say, Ashford open
05:43and a similar amount would be required for Epswoody as well.
05:46But when you get £2.7 billion over five years, it's a fantastic investment.
05:51You're going to pay for that investment within a few months.
05:53So, I think what needs to happen now is government needs to facilitate –
05:57I'm not necessarily suggesting that government pays for it,
06:00but government needs to facilitate the reopening of stations.
06:03So, it would be a commercial ask from an operator to –
06:07not one of the train operators, but a station operator –
06:09to get the stations open. But it's all doable.
06:12Well, isn't that what Eurostar's big concern was the economic feasibility,
06:16particularly with entry-exit system checks.
06:19Surely the government's going to have to step in on this
06:22because it is such a costly investment with border checks.
06:26That's very small. Included in the £4 million would be
06:29all those checks required. So, I know this has been a big sort of bugbear for people.
06:33And it's – I think people have been unnecessarily scared about the EES systems.
06:38When you look at what Getlink have done with the Channel Tunnel,
06:41they've got that all in hand and that's going through
06:44and that's really worked well.
06:47So, I think within that £4 million, you've got all those costs contained.
06:50So, it's not actually as bad as everybody thinks it might be.
06:54And, George, what do you think the government should be doing
06:57to help bring this forward? Because, obviously, EBS fleet does benefit from it.
07:02Obviously, we already have high-speed rail passing through the station on a regular basis.
07:07What do you think needs to be done?
07:09Well, it's important to remember that the earliest this is going to open is in 2030.
07:14So, we do have five years to be preparing for it and getting the finances ready.
07:18The government should be finding a way to front the money,
07:20but they also should be coming to local authorities like KCC and asking what they can be doing.
07:24As you know, KCC have been very vocally supportive of reopening international rail.
07:29And they claim to have made millions of pounds of savings.
07:33Wouldn't it be great if they could point those savings towards bringing that international rail back to Kent?
07:38Because, obviously, as a deputy leader of council,
07:41how much influence do councils actually really have in this process?
07:45Because it's all great to sit here and talk about bringing services back.
07:49What can politicians here in the county actually really do on this?
07:53Well, I think what's really pleasing to see, Ollie, is the number of people that have been working together on this.
07:58And it has been cross-organisational work.
08:02So, borough councils like Dartford and Ashford have been working together with other organisations.
08:08Obviously, Bring Back Eurotrains, we've been working on this for two years.
08:12You've got Kent County Council have also pitched in as well.
08:15And a number of other organisations are all involved in it.
08:18And really, it's having a massively strong voice, putting forward the benefits of it.
08:23And that has actually, I think, really put government, certainly Department for Transport,
08:29under a huge pressure to actually make sure that something happens.
08:32And I think you can see the benefits of that in terms of the commitment from Peter Lortendi
08:37to actually champion the reopening of stations.
08:39Keir Starmer talking about it in Prime Minister's Questions.
08:42And it's got cross-party support as well.
08:45So, there's huge pressure and that has benefited, I think, the whole campaign.
08:50Cross-party pressure is one thing, but we have seen challenges with borders at the moment.
08:56Entry-exit system in Dover has been deferred.
08:59Obviously, there's biometrics, there's facial scans having to be delayed a tiny bit because of teething issues.
09:06And that doesn't necessarily bode well for stations that are not in operation at the moment.
09:12They're going to have costs being put in to get them up and running.
09:15And may have an operator who hasn't had the experience of operating stations on that scale and volume.
09:21Doesn't this not really bode well for the feasibility of these services?
09:25Well, I think you're going to find actually, and I think that the words you use, teething problems, are exactly it.
09:30So, there's always going to be minor problems when you start systems up.
09:34My impression from all the industry players is that these are sort of initial teething problems and they will be overcome.
09:41In terms of an operator running the station, there's a number of people that could do that.
09:45And one of whom would be Southeastern Rail, who actually run the domestic side at Ashford.
09:51So, they could just as easily run both sides of the station as a provider, much like an airport runs where you get multiple airlines.
09:59Somebody like Southeastern could run both sides of the station and smoothly provide that service to the train operators.
10:07So, all of this is absolutely doable.
10:09George, what do you make of that?
10:11Do you think that Southeastern or another rail operator in Kent can step in on this?
10:15It's completely possible and Dickon's right there and there's been huge cross-party support for bringing back services at Ebsleet and Ashford.
10:22It's absolutely critical that we do it and we've got five years to work out these teething issues and the barriers,
10:27particularly the financial barriers and working out what's going to happen with the borders.
10:30When Ebsleet International opened, I think I must have been about eight or nine years old and we renamed our football team for it as well.
10:37It was this huge, fantastic thing for our community.
10:41It meant that people could have short, affordable holidays via the Eurostar.
10:45I remember being quite young, we went to Paris for the day.
10:49The case which is perhaps put forward by some that this isn't a viable business is completely incorrect.
10:54I think once this reopens, you're going to see a huge surge in interest.
10:57Both ways, we're going to see people from the continent want to come and travel here and spend their weekends in Kent and London.
11:02I think it's a net win all round.
11:05Well, I think we could talk about Eurostar and Virgin Trains all day.
11:09It's one of the biggest issues for people in Ashford and Dartford.
11:13Unfortunately, you're saved by the break.
11:15We'll be back with you in just a few minutes.
11:17But don't go anywhere because we'll be talking all about the budget and potential tax rises.
11:24Could you be paid more to the government in the coming months and years because of this budget?
11:31Or could this be the thing that saves our public services?
11:34All that and more after the break as well as a look at the Eden Bridge Bonfire Effigy.
11:40You won't want to miss it.
11:54We'll see a bit later.
11:55Good morning, everybody.
11:57We'll see you next time in the next summer.
12:00We'll see you next time in the next summer.
12:05We'll see you next time.
12:10See you next time.
16:15How are we going to pay for the services that we receive?
16:19Well, George and Dickens still join me from the first part.
16:23And George, I'm going to go to you on this one first.
16:25What do you make of this?
16:27This would be a sizable U-turn from the government if they were to increase income tax?
16:32Well, yeah, it's important to know that the budget hasn't happened yet, so we really don't know.
16:38And I do want to acknowledge the challenge that Rachel Reeves and the government have here is enormous, but also it's a challenge they largely made for themselves.
16:46When Rachel produced her budget last year, she said this is a one-off, we're going to come raise taxes, we're going to collect your money, it's going to be a one-off and it's all going to be all good from here.
16:58During a general election before that, she said that they would not raise income taxes, they will not raise taxes on working people.
17:05Funnily enough, Labour still can't tell us what a working person is or how much they earn or where they live.
17:11It's not good, as you saw from the video earlier, there is such a depressing anti-politics mood in this country.
17:22People are not optimistic about their future and I'm really concerned if the Chancellor does raise taxes, where do we go from there?
17:31Do promises mean anything at all?
17:32You can't blame Labour entirely for this, because obviously the Chancellor is saying that issues like Brexit, the financial inheritance they inherited from your party's government brought us to this situation.
17:45Obviously, we heard a lot last year about the £20 billion black hole and obviously this is in part due to OBR forecasting that has wiped out her fiscal headroom on borrowing.
17:55She's kind of being torn apart by external factors, isn't she?
17:59No. Rachel Reeves is the Chancellor, Keir Starmer is the Prime Minister. The buck does stop with them, I'm afraid.
18:04In regards to the black hole, they actually never were able to present any evidence to support that as well.
18:10It's been widely discredited from everywhere you go.
18:14And as I said, they made these promises. They knew what they were inheriting.
18:19Obviously, the previous Conservative government had so many challenges with COVID, having to raise spending and taxes for that.
18:24And Labour knew what they're inheriting.
18:28And as I said, it is a challenge.
18:31But if they knew it was a challenge, why did they make all these promises?
18:34They've really boxed themselves in and they're going to be forced to go back on it.
18:39Dickon, you would have been out on the campaign trail, potentially campaigning on a manifesto that didn't include income tax rises, taxes on working people.
18:52How do you feel?
18:54Well, of course, as George says, we haven't seen the budget yet and we will get to that point and obviously know what's in that budget.
19:01I have to say, I would echo Lucy Powell's word, the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.
19:07And I think that we should meet the commitments we made.
19:11So, I would not want to see income tax, VAT or national insurance go up.
19:19Those were the commitments we made.
19:21And I do absolutely support what Lucy Powell said about that in terms of not raising those things.
19:27I think that's very important.
19:29There are other things that Rachel Reeves could do to raise considerable amounts of money,
19:34which would actually plug whatever gap that the OBR model predicts there might be.
19:40I would say one of those things is the relief on pension contributions, which is not progressive.
19:48At the moment, if you're a higher rate earner on pensions, you'll get a 40% top up from the government.
19:53If you're on the lower rate of 20%, you get a lower top up.
19:56And I would see that as an opportunity to get rid of that difference.
20:01Everybody should have a 20% top up.
20:03And that creates, for example, £14.5 billion of extra revenue.
20:08And there are other things that the government could do to avoid actually hitting ordinary people
20:14with extra taxes and extra costs.
20:18So, I would like to see that happen.
20:20What happens on the Budget Day, we don't know.
20:22But I certainly echo the words of Lucy Powell, the Deputy Leader,
20:26in terms of we should try and meet our commitments.
20:29On that, obviously, Labour has a reputation of not just being on the side of pensioners
20:35with things like the winter fuel allowance cuts.
20:38Wouldn't putting all this money onto something like taking away certain people's pension credits
20:44rather than an income tax that, you know, is scalable income tax,
20:48tends to be viewed as a progressive tax in and of itself.
20:51Isn't that more, particularly, he's likely going to raise around £6 billion in taxes.
20:56Which is not insignificant either in the grand scheme of things.
21:00Well, I think there's much more, there's more fairness in actually not doubling the reward
21:05for higher earners.
21:06So, everybody, I think, should get the same top up from government.
21:09So, I think that's a very fair way of treating everybody.
21:12And it's a much better way.
21:14Other things that we could do, for example, we could invest in HMRC.
21:18And I think that's important.
21:20Whatever government was in, I think HMRC should have further investment
21:24so that it can actually tackle very complex tax avoidance that's going on in certain big companies.
21:31A billion pounds of investment in that would actually generate, according to the figures,
21:36£12 billion in return.
21:37So, we'd get £12 billion more revenue back from actually supporting the HMRC
21:43with highly trained people and systems to actually identify where that avoidance is going on
21:49and get it back.
21:50So, there's all sorts of other things that we can do that actually don't mean that we hit ordinary people
21:55and we do actually generate a lot more revenue.
21:58And I would like to see some of those things tried.
22:00Obviously, the Conservatives have been calling for changing things such as the inheritance tax changes
22:06that impacted farmers last year in the budget.
22:10What sort of things would you be interested in as a Conservative that you think
22:14would potentially fix some of the government's budget issues
22:17while not impacting working people in this way?
22:22You can't tax your way into economic growth.
22:24If small businesses, large businesses, individuals are paying more tax,
22:29it means your economy is now less mobile, people can have less money to spend,
22:34we need to essentially start freeing up money in people's pockets.
22:39The primary way we can do that, abolish stamp duty.
22:42It's our party's flagship policy.
22:44It's fully costed.
22:45It's going to also have the upside of addressing a lot of the issues
22:49with house purchasing that we have in this country as well.
22:52I think that is a fantastic way to get us moving again.
22:56One thing I do want to talk about before we go to something that's a tiny bit more fun
22:58is local authorities.
23:00Obviously, part of the budget, it will dictate how councils,
23:05such as Kent County Council, they say they can't really outline their budget
23:08until they know what money they're going to be getting from government.
23:10What would be the difference between a good budget and a bad budget
23:13for Ashford and Dartford borough councils?
23:16Well, I think we need to know exactly where we are with the budget.
23:19So, obviously, we'll find out when the budget happens.
23:22But we need to make sure that local authorities are properly funded.
23:26I mean, they do provide some really important frontline services,
23:30both at current county level and at borough level.
23:33So, we do need to have a fair arrangement of funding for local authorities, definitely.
23:39And do you think that's likely going to be forthcoming, George?
23:42I think Dickon's correct.
23:43But is it forthcoming?
23:44No.
23:45It's not likely we're going to get that fair funding settlement for local authorities.
23:49And what you have to remember about the current structure of local authorities in England
23:53is that it's broken.
23:54It doesn't work how it is right now.
23:56It's not, you know, the costs for SEND, the cost for adult social care.
24:02It means that councils in this country, particularly larger ones like county authorities,
24:07are essentially set up to fail.
24:10So, yes, I would welcome additional funding in the short term.
24:13But what we really need to see from this government is a restructuring as to how councils are run
24:18and what powers they have and what they're responsible for.
24:20Well, there's a real disconnect, I think, as we both mentioned earlier on,
24:26about politicians and people living here in Kent.
24:30I think that's best epitomised by the Edenbridge Bonfire Society.
24:33Let's take a quick look at this clip about what they chose as the effigy this year.
24:38There were plenty of options for who was going to be the Edenbridge guy this year.
24:42But for the people of Edenbridge, the answer was obvious.
24:45It's Starmer.
24:46Starmer the Farmer Harmer, as seen on his badge on his chest just there.
24:49Now, there are other people in the running, including the name that's been on everybody's lips.
24:53We did have Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.
24:55He came in a very, very close second.
24:57We had other nominations.
24:59I think people have suggested Angela Rayner, Andrew Tate, Rachel Rees.
25:03I love the fact that he's got the traditional Guy Fawkes hat and the frilly rough on
25:07because it sort of brings the whole story round back to Parliament,
25:11which is what, obviously, Guy Fawkes was trying to blow up in the first instance.
25:14We feel that Keir Starmer's doing quite a good job by himself
25:18of sort of causing the destruction of it.
25:22Obviously, it's a bit of fun.
25:24It's a bit silly seeing something like that.
25:26But it does raise some serious questions about how people feel
25:30when they're erecting effigies of the Prime Minister for their Guy Fawkes knives.
25:35What do you make of this, George?
25:36What is going on in this country, Oli?
25:39It terrifies me.
25:41As I said earlier, there is such a pessimistic and a doomy mood.
25:50I've got no love for Keir Starmer, as I've said before.
25:54I think his vision for this country is completely the wrong one.
25:56I don't think he's a good Prime Minister.
26:01To be a year and a half in your term
26:04and for people to be burning effigies of you
26:07suggests not just the failure of Starmer,
26:12but also something that's going seriously wrong
26:15in the structure of our government.
26:18I'll bring Dickon in quickly
26:20because we only have a few seconds left of the show.
26:23What do you make of it?
26:24Obviously, they do it every year.
26:25It's a bit of fun, but obviously, it does have a serious message.
26:27It's interesting what George was saying
26:29about the atmosphere in the country.
26:31I think politics in general,
26:34we've got to snap out of this miserable approach to things.
26:36We've got to have a much more positive vision
26:38of where we want to get to.
26:39If we've got a map of where we want to get to,
26:41we've got a chance of getting there.
26:43I think that cuts across all parties at the moment.
26:46We've got to get that vision.
26:47And let's end on that positive note.
26:49See you next week.
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