- 7 weeks ago
Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by Cllr Shane Mochrie-Cox from Labour, and Cllr Bill Barrett from Reform UK.
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00:00Welcome to the Kemp Politics Show on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey.
00:24This week's headlines have all been about queues and delays. New EU entry checks could make you wait six times longer at Dover for your next trip to France.
00:34That's coming up later. But first, Chancellor Rachel Reeves wants to avoid delays to the new Lower Thames crossing.
00:41She wants to shake up planning rules to ensure the £10 billion road isn't held up by legal challenges.
00:47Local democracy reporter Olly Leder explains.
00:50The Chancellor in Kent with the Dartford crossing in view and NIMBY's in her sights.
00:57Flanked by local Labour MPs, Rachel Reeves pledged to cut down the number of legal challenges to big infrastructure projects and how long they take to go through the courts.
01:10Projects like the Lower Thames crossing, which has taken the best part of two decades to get moving while traffic in the local area has slowed to a standstill.
01:23We're reducing the time that judicial reviews take by six months to make it easier to get projects started, to get the spades in the ground.
01:32And of course, Lower Thames crossing has been talked about for 16 years.
01:37There's 350,000 pages of planning application. That's longer than the complete works of Shakespeare.
01:43And we want to make it easier to actually get these projects started.
01:47The announcement will see judges with planning expertise appointed to cases and set court dates designed to pin down those involved.
01:57For the man leading the charge on the Lower Thames crossing, the proposals are welcome, though hints it won't get the tunnel built any faster now it's been given the green light.
02:09Every major infrastructure programme in the UK now has to deal with big judicial reviews or legal challenges.
02:15Luckily, actually, on the LTC, we didn't, but every other programme will.
02:18So what the Chancellor's doing will definitely make life easier.
02:21It's coming. It will take a while, though. So, you know, don't think of anything quick until probably 2034.
02:28But the local MP for Dartford does say the plans could prove pivotal in the early stages of other future projects.
02:37It's all part of that big agenda for the government to get infrastructure built as quickly as possible and to shorten the planning timescales.
02:46And it's brilliant that she's chosen the Dartford crossing and the Lower Thames crossing as her example of the way government can speed up these really important projects.
02:54Regular commuters here in the local area will still face years of congestion before the Lower Thames crossing is complete.
03:03The real backdrop to an announcement that only holds some of the answers for getting Kent building.
03:11Olly Leader in Dartford.
03:14Here with me is Labour's Shane Mockery-Cox, the Deputy Leader of Gravesham Council, and Reform's Bill Barrett from Ashford, the Kent County Council and Ashford Borough Council.
03:25Thanks very much for joining me.
03:26Shane, we're talking about a £10 billion road, the biggest road project currently on the books in the UK, the biggest road tunnel ever built in the UK, and one that has been controversial for many reasons in terms of its location, its environmental impact.
03:40Is less oversight a good thing here?
03:42I don't think it is less oversight, but it's right that such a project with all of its money has a level of scrutiny.
03:47But not only did this government get elected on making sure infrastructure is in place, all of our residents, no matter which party we're a part of, has always said they want infrastructure in place first before any other development takes place.
03:59And this is a fine example of making sure we have an infrastructure first approach to things, which is just by dissing into residents.
04:05Gravesham Borough Council was an opponent to this scheme.
04:08Yes.
04:08Is that something you've now kind of come to peace with?
04:12Is it is happening that your chances to possibly challenge it in the courts have been gone?
04:18I'm on the record, as over many years, of saying I don't think it's in the right location.
04:22I still would love to see it in Dartford and my friends in Dartford, including Jim, who've put on the VT there.
04:30We disagree, and it's OK to disagree.
04:32But lots of promises have been made for the Low Thames Crossing, and I think what we've got to do now is make sure that those promises that were made are held to account and make sure that this infrastructure delivers for local residents as well as the wider national infrastructure.
04:46Bill, we'll come to you.
04:46I mean, reform has kind of grown in popularity partly on the basis of saying we're going to strip out red tape.
04:53That's been one of your big messages.
04:55So are you in favour of this approach?
04:58Yes and no.
04:58Yes, because obviously I think that the way we do things in the United Kingdom is too slow.
05:03I don't think it should have taken this long for the consultation period to get to the point where next year we actually begin construction of this.
05:10But no, we have to be aware and understanding of local communities and the local environment before we do projects like this.
05:16One of the things that really concerns me is the amount of time that this is going to take, even though the end product for it I am supportive of.
05:23And obviously I'm just a backbencher and my views today are not necessarily those of KCC, reform at KCC.
05:29But I would just like to say that I feel that if we don't do this project at some point we'll get to capacity on the major arterial roads in Kent.
05:36So this project has to happen.
05:37I just think that possibly we need to be able to do these types of projects quicker.
05:40There's an interesting point there about road capacities because one of the objections to this scheme is that although it will relieve in the short term, what it will do is actually increase demand and the roads will just be as busy in the fairly short term anyway.
05:53Is that still a concern of yours?
05:55It is still a concern.
05:56I mean, traffic modelling, and I'm the cabinet member for planning at Crucian Road Council, traffic modelling is quite famously pie in the sky.
06:02You can model as much as you like, but actually you're dealing with real life and people's driving behaviour.
06:08You can only predict, but it doesn't mean to say it is with any sort of degree of accuracy.
06:12You only need to have a slight issue in another part of the county and it can cause trouble elsewhere.
06:18Bluebell Hill, a famous gridlock.
06:21Hello, Bill, I believe you travelled there this morning.
06:23I do indeed, yes, yes.
06:24You only need to look at Bluebell Hill and the infrastructure that's needed there.
06:27So one of the wider points, actually, I had done the Lower Thames Crossing, going back to the early days of this, is once they get to this side of the river, or even the other side of the river, they've got to get to their destinations.
06:38So if they get to Gravesend on the A2, are we going to seriously say they're going up to the M25 to go down to the M20, or are they going to tackle Bluebell Hill, which is why that needs some additional infrastructure to do that.
06:50And I'm delighted to see KCC are looking at that now.
06:54KCC actually has a policy of supporting the Lower Thames Crossing under the previous administration, to be absolutely fair.
07:00So it has had county support, if not Gravesham support, primarily because of the impacts that Bill has rightly mentioned.
07:08But we've got to make it work.
07:10The original vision for it was effectively taking the traffic from the north and making them go to the south easy.
07:14It was M11 to M20 with ease.
07:17So over the years, all these consultations have shortened to almost be in the tunnel.
07:20So in some ways, I would have liked to have seen the greater vision for this be done, because actually it needs to have that wider impact.
07:29But these are things we can continue to keep fighting for to make sure that actually there is as little disruption as possible,
07:35and that the infrastructure that is put in place works for everybody.
07:38And I think that's going to be such a crucial thing moving forward.
07:40But you used to have the transport brief at KCC.
07:43I mean, there is a bigger network of problems here, aren't there?
07:46Obviously, the connections between the M2 and the M20, for example, generally are a bottleneck for transport across Kent.
07:54Shane's making the point that there does need to be additional work if you really want to smoothen out.
07:59But the money's not there, is it?
08:01I mean, KCC doesn't have the money for those kind of projects.
08:03Well, KCC doesn't have the type of money that we need for those types of projects.
08:06I mean, our road network is in such a poor state that we need £600 to £700 million next year just to bring all the roads in Kent up to a safe standard,
08:15let alone what you want to do next.
08:16So, no, KCC does not have the money for those types of projects.
08:19Most of these major infrastructure projects are obviously funded from DFT.
08:23We bid for the money and the funds come through.
08:26So, what I'm hoping, Dan, is that when this project is complete,
08:29that KCC can, in the process of its completion, bid for monies to improve infrastructure around it to aid to the connectivity from it into Kent and into Essex.
08:40Because Kent is the gateway county.
08:42This will allow smoother transition from Kent into Essex and then up into the rest of the United Kingdom.
08:48And I just think it's really important that everything we do, we do in a homogenised, wide-ranging type of approach so that other things benefit, not just this.
08:57So, you know, the interconnectivity is the key point here.
09:00I mean, look, we only have one high-speed route in the United Kingdom, and it's 2025.
09:04And that goes from the south of England up to London.
09:07You can get on the train at Ashford in 38 minutes and be in St. Pancras, but we just have one.
09:11I mean, the Japanese had these decades ago.
09:14The French had these decades ago.
09:15Why have we just got one?
09:17Why has high-speed two just been such a mess?
09:19Why is it so difficult and why does it take so long to do anything in this country?
09:22These are the things that go through my mind before I even come on a programme like this.
09:27This is what really concerns me, the time it takes, you know, and this is needed.
09:31If we don't do this, we only have the other option to tell new people that want a car, you can't have a car, because otherwise the roads will be chock-a-block.
09:37So unless we're going to provide more public transport, more buses, more trains, make it cheaper, the only option is to expand the road network.
09:43And that appears to be, at this point in time, the general consensus going forwards, with a move to, obviously, greener forms of transport as the years go by.
09:51Shane, this is the principle at the heart of this.
09:53This is a test case, effectively, in Darwin for trying to make things simpler.
09:57But obviously, as we know, with HS2, there was a big demand for it to happen quicker,
10:02but there was also a lot of concern from the communities that were in the path of it that it was going to cause problems.
10:08Are we looking at a Labour government which would sacrifice an element of democracy for growth?
10:13I don't think sacrificing democracy for growth, I don't think it's as binary as that,
10:17because actually, if you work with residents, if you work on a more nuanced basis,
10:23we would live in such a polarised political world at the moment that it is either black or white.
10:28I actually think people don't work in that, lives don't work in that.
10:30And I think if you can engage in a positive way and explain the benefits and get what those, you know, local residents,
10:39if they are having infrastructure, and the Labour government and the Chancellor have been quite clear on this,
10:43those that host the infrastructure should have benefits from that infrastructure.
10:47And I think the lower terms of crossing, hopefully, is a test case in that.
10:50But for HS2...
10:51The other test case for that, of course, is Eurostar,
10:53where a big part of Kent Countryside was dug up on the basis that we would benefit.
10:57And, of course, Ashford now doesn't benefit, Epps Fleet now doesn't.
11:00Absolutely.
11:01So do we have a right to be a bit suspicious of this?
11:04I think Epps Fleet and Ashford did benefit,
11:08and, unfortunately, the services have not been restored.
11:11And I think there's an absolute cross-party consensus wanting to see Eurostar restored at Ashford and Epps Fleet.
11:18There is no separation between anyone here,
11:21because it helps the Kent economy at all parts of the county to be a success.
11:26I think the announcement, I think it was this week,
11:29that there is going to be a challenger to Eurostar,
11:32that other people can use the tunnel,
11:34which HS1 only operates at about 50% capacity.
11:37So there's lots of room, headroom there,
11:40to make sure that there can be international services restored.
11:43We have to take a short break at that point,
11:45but when we come back, we'll be talking about new EU entry checks at Dover.
11:48Stay with us.
11:49Stay with us.
12:19Stay with us.
12:49Stay with us.
13:19Stay with us.
13:49Stay with us.
13:50Stay with us.
14:49Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:10This week the EU started to phase in new entry checks for UK passengers headed to Europe.
15:15Travellers will have to provide fingerprints and a photo before they can board a ferry
15:19or the Eurostar.
15:20Coach and freight passengers are already affected and the same rules will apply to car and foot
15:25passengers from November.
15:27At the Port of Dover terminal they warned it might take six times longer to pass through
15:32the control booths.
15:34First, we have a brief explainer of how it will work using Folkestone's Eurotunnel terminal
15:39as an example.
16:09Where travellers will have to disembark and submit some biometric details.
16:13The process is relatively simple.
16:15Scan your passport and your fingerprints, get your photograph taken and then head to regular
16:18passport control which should, if all goes to plan, now be a lot quicker.
16:23While your data will be stored for three years by the EU, you will need to at least have your
16:27photograph taken at one of these terminals every time you enter or leave the block.
16:33And still here with me is Reforms Bill Barrett and Labour's Shane McCree Cox.
16:37Bill, you were the transport lead at KCC at a time when this was being talked about.
16:44How was Kent preparing for the potential disruption that this could cause?
16:48Well Dan, obviously we were knowledgeable that there was going to be some disruption.
16:52You can't introduce a new system like this and there not be disruption.
16:56But an awful lot of it is, to a large extent, out of our hands.
16:59Obviously, the port of Dover and St Pancras, these are in essence separate entities completely
17:05from KCC, even though we liaise with them.
17:08From our perspective, it's more looking at things from an Operation Brock perspective,
17:13in case there's delays on the road network.
17:15If things happen, then obviously we've got the Kent and Medway Resilience Forum, who
17:19we can liaise with in case things then cascade out.
17:23So really, we're a supporting agency to other organisations that will be implementing this.
17:28My own personal opinion on this is how many decades and decades have we had passports for?
17:33How many decades and decades have we travelled in and out of this country to foreign countries
17:37without this? Why do we need this now?
17:39My own personal opinion is it's another layer of red tape, it's another layer of bureaucracy,
17:44and obviously after the introductory period, then I believe that what will occur will be
17:47the EITAS, and from that point onwards then everyone will charge €20 that will allow you
17:52to travel in and out of Europe from the United Kingdom, as obviously we are now no longer
17:56in the European Union with just a fingerprint and a facial recognition.
17:59I think it's overdone, I think it's overcooked, and I personally am against it.
18:04A few things to pick up on there, but let's start with the mention of Operation Brock because
18:09that would have put fear in the hearts of some people around Kent when they heard that.
18:14We spent the first half of the show talking about transport and the smooth transport from
18:19the coast through Kent. Of course one of the biggest problems that we have is how often
18:23the M20 has to be completely locked down to cope with the capacity problems at Dover.
18:28Does it worry you that this is going to just mean that that continues even going on indefinitely?
18:32I think there hasn't been a solution to Operation Brock for a very long time now, and I think
18:39this will cause some initial delays for sure. I think there's been some investment, I think
18:45£10 million has been invested to make sure that this could go as smoothly as possible,
18:49but as the video package said, this is a requirement from the EU, we're not part of the EU, and this is
18:57their requirement to enter the block, and that's up to them to decide. All we can do is make
19:02sure it is as smooth as possible, but it is going to require some long-term solutions, working
19:07with all partners, including Kent County Council, to make sure that this is as smooth as it can
19:12possibly be.
19:13Operation Brock can't be the answer forever, can it, Bill?
19:15No.
19:16So there have been a lot of failed attempts to try and create a more permanent solution
19:21to that. Where do we go from here?
19:23Primarily, Dan, we need a large lorry storage facility somewhere in the Dover outline area,
19:31OK? So the lorries aren't parked on our motorway. A motorway is a throughport. You can't use
19:36that as a lorry park indefinitely. We need government investment to secure a large lorry park so that
19:42when emergency situations occur, the port of Dover backs up, there's problems on Eurostar,
19:47whatever, so people can actually just drive into the lorry park in the HGVs, be fed, use
19:53the toilets, and then come back out again and access the terminals when ready. That's what
19:57we need. We need investment on a larger scale than it's possible for ABC, KCC or any of the
20:02surrounding councils to possibly do, and that can only be led by the government, I'm afraid.
20:06I remember being on this show talking to David Brazier, the former cabinet member for
20:10transport at Kent County Council, and he made a very good point actually about wider investment,
20:14not just in Kent. We have, as an island nation, we have many, many ports, but we seem to have
20:20a bottleneck where everything goes through Dover. And the reason is normally because it's the
20:25cheapest crossing, I suppose, but one suggestion that David come up with, and actually talking
20:30of making sure that everyone benefits from this level of infrastructure, is that we need
20:35to look at some of our other ports and make sure it's as cost effective, I suppose, to
20:39make sure people cross wherever it is. Rather than coming through Kent, why don't we use
20:44other ports? I just thought it was an interesting point. Actually, the issue is because we have
20:49the smallest crossing point of about 20 miles, the shortest route, but actually, if you could
20:54go from ports up and down the coast, across to the continent, at the same cost basis, then
21:01surely that would be better for everybody, and including local economies up and down the land.
21:05While I want to support the Kent economy, actually having Operation Block constantly in place,
21:10harms the economy and harms local residents.
21:12Yes, I fully agree. I fully agree with Shane there. Ultimately, though, the problem we've
21:16got, Shane, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, is that this is our problem. Our problem is
21:20a lorry park on our own main arterial motorway in Kent. And I generally believe that unless we
21:25get some form of governmental investment or directional steerage to enable us, Kent County Council
21:30as the strategic authority, the district councils, to purposely build a large lorry storage facility,
21:37a lorry park, which I believe there are conversations already ongoing.
21:41Is this an example of where the kind of streamlining of planning process that we were talking about
21:46in the first half could happen? Possibly, yes.
21:49Where they're talking about you're being able to bring something like that through. But then,
21:52of course, the danger of that being then that there have always been communities down in that
21:57kind of coastal area around Dover who have been very concerned about having this thing on their
22:00doorstep. I think the thing is, Dan, this hasn't just occurred in the last six months. We've had
22:05years and years and years of this. And what you need is you need all the top minds around the same
22:08table asking the same question, how do we cure it? How do we make it better? And the way we make it
22:13better is by not storing them on the M20 and seeing as they're physical entities, a HGV, they have to
22:18be stored somewhere else, e.g. a lorry park. That's the most natural solution. They drive off the M20
22:23into a lorry park and they drive back on when they're able to or directed to. Unless we do that,
22:27we keep using the M20. It's just that simple. And that comes down to one thing, money.
22:30And, of course, this isn't just about lorries. So 10 million passengers a year use that port.
22:35They do. And, of course, we're going to be looking at times of the year where maybe not over the course of
22:40the winter. But when we get into the summer when more people are going over to France on holiday
22:44who haven't yet done this check, it has to be done once every three years,
22:48we could see huge bottlenecks arising just from passengers as well, couldn't we?
22:52A hundred. It could get slightly out of hand for a little while. I don't think it will get
22:56completely out of hand for a long time, but it could get slightly out of hand for a little while.
23:00And that is why I say right now that the leaders of Kent, the leaders of the district councils and
23:04His Majesty's government need to start considering a solution to this rather than always going back to the
23:09temporary failsafe, which is cheaper, but much, much more aggravating for the people of Kent.
23:14And we have to understand, when that motorway drops from 70 miles an hour to,
23:17effectively, 49 miles an hour because you have average speed checks,
23:21okay, that slows everything down. And, ultimately, that slows down the flow of money.
23:26And this is a capitalist economy. And if you slow the flow of money down,
23:29that slows growth, slows jobs, slows everything. We need a solution, Dan.
23:33I have to ask. I mean, obviously, we've had the Brexit word has come up a couple of times
23:37in the course of this. I said earlier reformers campaigned a lot on cutting red tape. But this
23:43is red tape that has been created by Brexit, isn't it, Shane? I mean, would that be a fair way of looking at it?
23:48I think it's an additional complication. I think anyone that's lived in the area will
23:52ever know that Operation Brock was in place and delays have been there since before Brexit.
23:58But I think it is an additional complication because we're not in the room to have discussed
24:03any arrangements into the EU entry-exit scheme because we gave up our seat at the table. And
24:09that was the democratic choice and that's that. But I think because this requires those additional
24:17checks, because it requires every three years, that is going to create, as Bill rightly said,
24:22an additional bottleneck. But I think it will – I think as long as the infrastructure is there and
24:28as long as people work with that infrastructure, it should be okay. But I think we've seen delays
24:33before this and we've seen delays continuously. It needs a long-term solution. But I think that
24:37long-term solution isn't just about a lorry park and Operation Brock, although that is one solution.
24:41It needs to be multifaceted. It needs to be long-term and multifaceted and that's going to require some
24:46long-term thinking.
24:47Well, some people might look at this, Bill, and they might say we're having to spend millions
24:50and millions on a lorry park, millions and millions on infrastructure for new security booths at Dover,
24:55creating an enormous amount of red tape and bottlenecks on Kent Road. This was a self-inflicted
25:01wound, wasn't it?
25:02I disagree, Dan. I disagree for two reasons. Well, first of all, the Brexit vote occurred
25:06and we've obviously left the European Union. So we've just basically got a man up and deal with
25:10the situation. Now, if we just take the M20 and Operation Brock for a second, if all we need is some
25:16leadership, some money and some joined-up thinking to create a solution to a problem that has been going
25:21on for years and years. And we, as English men and English women in the current age of 2025,
25:27cannot find a solution to that. I think we've got a bigger problem. We need to be able to troubleshoot
25:32big problems in this country and I don't think we're particularly good at it. This problem should
25:36have been sorted out years ago. This problem should have been sorted out when we knew it was going to
25:40happen when we left the European Union. There was always a chance that at some point there'd be further
25:44checks that this EES would come along. And sure enough, it has. And yet, oh no, we're worrying about
25:50it now. I want more productivity. I want more proactiveness. And I want the leadership in this
25:54country to say, right, we've got a problem. This is how we're going to deal with it. And I think the
25:58people out there want that as well, Dan. A bit of advice for people who are planning to travel to
26:02France. What should they be thinking about in terms of this new regime? I think they need to check
26:08before they travel. It's an age old piece of advice. But if you're not prepared, it's very
26:14scouts. And I love them working with the scouts organisation. If you're not prepared, then it can
26:20be trouble later on. So be prepared before you go. Have everything you need, because that's half the
26:25delay. If you actually know what the rules are, and you know what to expect, then it will make it easier
26:30going through. But I also know the investment is in there to make sure that there are people on hand to
26:35help, because that's going to be important. That's all we've got time for in the Kent Politics
26:38Show. Thank you to both of my guests for coming in. Kent tonight is coming up with all the latest
26:43news from around the county. So stay with us and we'll be back next week.
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