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Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by local Labour councillor, Alex Paterson, and local Conservative councillor, John Davis.
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00:00Welcome to the Kemp Politics Show on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey.
00:25And this week, Sir Keir Starmer hit the reset button on his glitch in government.
00:30He says we're living in a brave new world full of digital ID cards and virtual doctors.
00:35So are you concerned about immigration? Fed up of long NHS waiting lists? According to
00:40Labour, there's an app for that. But can gadgets and technical trickery really solve
00:45the problems facing Kent's residents? Finn McDermid found out.
00:53The government's plans for a mandatory new digital ID have been announced, with two main
00:57purposes to deter illegal migrants from coming into the country and to streamline public
01:02services. And although the government has promised face-to-face support and alternative routes
01:07for those who might struggle to access the scheme, people in Rochester seem concerned for older
01:12people who might not be as technologically skilled.
01:14I worry how the old will interact with this card. My mother's 93, doesn't have a computer.
01:21Yeah, I help out, I'm a nurse though, I do, even though I'm a paediatric nurse, I help out
01:26my old elderly neighbours and people like my nan. They already struggle as it is going online
01:31and I have to generally do it for them.
01:33Like, elderly people, they're not used to the technology which is now. I mean, in the
01:38last ten years it's been such a boom in technology.
01:40I think that could be a big struggle and a worry for them. There's still a lot of older
01:46people that cannot access it online.
01:50Now the digital ID will only ask you for some very basic information. Your name, date of birth,
01:55your nationality and a photo of you for biometric security. And that's one of the concerns, security.
02:00But the government assure us that just like a contactless card or your NHS app, all this
02:05data will be stored on your phone. And experts say that with this security concern and the
02:10ease of using it, especially for elderly people, examples of it being used in Australia,
02:15Estonia and Denmark are good examples of why it might be actually quite easy to adopt.
02:20Personally, I don't think that will be an issue and particularly because this has been
02:24widely used in many other countries and this such accessibility problem have been well
02:29considered elsewhere. The security standards and practices of securing things like that
02:38has been pretty much matured. And again, I have to refer to other countries again, European
02:45particularly, unions.
02:47According to Prime Minister Keir Starmer, digital ID is an enormous opportunity for the UK.
02:52It will make it tougher to work illegally in this country, making our borders more secure.
02:56And it will also offer ordinary citizens countless benefits like being able to prove your identity
03:01to access key services swiftly rather than hunting around for an old utility bill.
03:06However, there is a petition arguing that the government shouldn't go ahead with the ID cards.
03:10It currently sits at more than 2,600,000 signatures, with areas of Kent contributing as well, especially
03:17the East Coast, with Dover and Deal contributing the most signatures in the county.
03:22The government will be launching a public consultation later this year to make sure the ID is as inclusive
03:27and accessible as possible, especially for groups like the elderly or the homeless.
03:31And while many might be worried for their older relatives, experts say the concept that's been adopted
03:36well overseas shouldn't be dismissed too hastily.
03:40Finn McDermid for KMTV in Rochester.
03:44Well, joining me in the studio is Labour's Alex Patterson, Cabinet Member for Highways and Community Safety
03:50in Medway, and John Davis, the Conservative shadow leader of Thanet District Council.
03:55Thank you so much for joining me. Alex, this is the greatest hits of New Labour coming back, isn't it,
04:01with Keir Starmer under pressure. Tony Blair tried to make digital ID cards work 20 years ago.
04:08He couldn't do it. What makes us think that this is going to work this time?
04:12Well, you know, I have to say that I wasn't the greatest fan of that plan 20 years ago,
04:18but I do recognise we're in a different digital world now than we were in 2005.
04:25So I think it's really important to accept that the world has moved on
04:31and acknowledge that, for example, Amazon know more about me than the British government right now
04:38in terms of having the best part of 30 years of purchasing history that they can look back through.
04:45So I think the idea, the sort of conspiracy theorist angle about people knowing too much about you,
04:50I have absolutely no chuck with that. I think that that's pretty daft and actually it's frustrating.
04:56Yesterday I had to apply for a DBS certificate and create a brand new government logo
05:02and different to the one that I have for HMRC and for the NHS.
05:06So I think something that tidies that sort of situation up is probably a good thing.
05:11For me, though, the jury is still out in terms of the impact of this on some of the things that it's been promised to tackle.
05:19But I'm open to being proved wrong on that.
05:23Because that's the interesting thing about this.
05:25It's being sold primarily as the solution to immigration and all these other benefits of
05:30it will make your life easier in all these ways kind of come in.
05:33Is it going to stop the boats, John?
05:36I'd like to see how.
05:38I think I must make it quite clear because we have a position that we don't agree with digital ID cards.
05:47But I want to add to that statement, which is that I have no problem.
05:51And I think any reasonable person has no problem with carrying an ID card.
05:56In fact, most of us, as has been said, we've got driving licences and there's the technology that could be used to produce an ID card.
06:05Just that. It's the digitisation that causes the problem of this.
06:10And it also I hear exactly what Alex is saying.
06:14And there's too much duplication within the civil service and processes that is waste.
06:19And therefore, we need to find ways to eradicate it.
06:22The social implications of digitisation, I believe, and certainly nearly three million.
06:29I think it's the fourth biggest count on a parliamentary petition ever.
06:33It just cannot be because, you know, Orwell, famous socialist, warned of this.
06:41It's 1984.
06:42And it can't escape our attention as well that Tony Blair tried to introduce this.
06:47Let's look at the name of the director of the company that's bringing this forward with the government.
06:52Oh, Tony Blair's son.
06:54At what point does this nepotistic will impose this cease?
06:59Because it is such a dangerous, dangerous policy, both for practical considerations, for social considerations.
07:07Because the elderly, my mother, 90 years old this year, she's no fool, but she does not use technology happily.
07:17And many of her friends, you know, they use it, but they get to a point.
07:21There's also the eggs in one basket.
07:24And if you want to see the danger of relying totally on digital and so on, just ask M&S or Jaguar Land Rover and the people in their supply chain.
07:33Because surely having all of these portals into it.
07:37That is the problem.
07:38People talk about Russian hacking and all of this kind of stuff.
07:41Can this really be secure, Alex?
07:43Well, I think that I absolutely hear those concerns about the need for some people not to engage with this in a digital way.
07:50But that would be to ignore the fact that underpinning any system, driving licences, NHS systems, passports, is a digital system anyway.
08:00So to pretend that that doesn't exist, you're kind of kidding yourself.
08:03It's not 1984, but equally this is not 1948 when George Orwell wrote that book.
08:08Times have moved on.
08:11And so I think, you know, I compare this to what we're doing in Medway.
08:15So I'm in charge of a programme called Medway 2.0 where we are trying to rethink the services that we offer to our residents from the ground up.
08:22Recognising that our council has essentially evolved over the same period as the internet happened.
08:28And so we have lots of disparate systems that don't talk to one another.
08:32And bringing them together, I think, is a good thing for our residents.
08:35But what I'm also very clear about to elderly residents is they will continue to be able to engage with our council the way that suits them best.
08:43So whether that's by post, by snail mail, by telephone or face to face.
08:49People will be concerned about the mission creep here, won't they?
08:53They'll be concerned that what begins as something which is, you only have to show this to prove you can get a job,
08:58and it's really just there to stop people who are entering the country illegally get work,
09:02will suddenly become, well, unless you have got one of these, you can't vote.
09:05Rob, that's the danger is, you know, and there's, for instance, who's to say that in time to come
09:12you won't suddenly be told you've used up your carbon credits, you can't travel.
09:16Who's to say? Now, I know that's not there today.
09:18You know, your party is the one who actually reduced access to voting by requiring people to carry ID.
09:26You made it more difficult for people to vote, despite the fact that voter fraud was vanishingly small.
09:32We're talking about maybe one case per election, two cases.
09:35But we're talking about, again, identity at the time there.
09:40What I would propose, and as I say, it's the only way it will have an impact on, because the problem,
09:47yes, the problem is people coming in, but it's not just the boats.
09:50There's a migration problem, full stop, in terms of people accessing it.
09:55So the only way that could work is if we had a stop system anyway,
09:59so the police would have to become far more robust in their approach to things
10:03instead of pussyfooting around certain situations.
10:06But I don't think any reasonable person, I certainly wouldn't mind being challenged,
10:09have you got your ID?
10:11It's the use of that to manipulate society, potentially, or to reward or penalise someone.
10:19And it's already happened in, you know, I know we're not China, but it's happened in China.
10:23But why was it a good idea when your party brought it in for elections, but not any other circumstances?
10:30But it wasn't a digital control system. It was simply a means of proving your right to vote,
10:38which again is important, because although the figures suggest otherwise,
10:43there's a lot of people believe that voter fraud is far more widespread.
10:47Unfortunately, it's not about feelings. The facts matter in these things.
10:50And we can only deal with the data at hand.
10:52It wasn't a problem. It wasn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It was a sledgehammer to crack something that really didn't exist.
10:58But we aren't.
10:59So when it's convenient, I think this is political expediency from the Conservatives,
11:03who actually introduced ID for something much more fundamental.
11:08I really don't have a problem with someone attempting to streamline this.
11:13I share any concerns about mission creep.
11:15I don't like the idea of, you know, stop and search and people being asked to show their passport and papers
11:20like we're in some bad World War II film.
11:23But, equally, I just don't, I think it's humbug for the Conservatives to criticise this,
11:28when actually they were the ones involved in restricting that most fundamental of British rights.
11:33We've only got a very short time left. Come back in, John, very quickly.
11:36I naturally wouldn't agree with that, but I think we've got to say, you know,
11:41also politics is about the people, by the people, for the people, and 2.6 million people don't want it.
11:48We need to stop there for a short break. When we come back, we'll be talking about the NHS. See you soon.
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15:03Bye.
15:05Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show on KMTV.
15:09On last week's show we discussed abuse directed at KMTV journalists
15:12while covering anti-immigration marches in Kent.
15:16Two senior reform councillors at Kent County Council liked a Facebook video
15:20which showed a reporter being targeted.
15:23Well, the reform leader at Kent County Council, Lyndon Kemkeren,
15:26sent us this video in response.
15:28Well, I think it's a fundamental right of everybody in this country
15:31to be able to go out and protest peacefully
15:33and non-violently.
15:35And as long as people follow those two very fundamental rules,
15:38I have no problem with people exercising their right to protest.
15:41As far as the social media posts you're referring to,
15:43I've spoken to the two councillors.
15:45They weren't aware of the full extent of the clip.
15:47They've both taken their likes off of that post.
15:50And do you think this behaviour that we've seen in these protests,
15:52except we obviously say it's been about peaceful protests,
15:55but we have seen a lot of quite strong language, strong behaviour,
15:59calls to say, you're not safe.
16:01Surely that doesn't come under the bracket of peaceful protests.
16:05Would you condemn that from these protesters?
16:07Well, obviously I condemn anything that isn't peaceful and legal.
16:10Anybody sensible would.
16:11That was Kent County Council Leader there, Lyndon Kemkeren.
16:16Now, as soon as 2027, sorry, as soon as 2027,
16:21your medical appointments might involve a trip to a virtual hospital.
16:25Sir Keir Starmer says a new NHS app will allow people to see consultants on screen.
16:30He claims it will cut waiting times for many common conditions.
16:34But other than saving a fortune in hospital parking charges,
16:37will it benefit Kent residents?
16:39We got reaction from our health expert, Julian Spinks,
16:42alongside Ashford MP and former nurse, Sojan Joseph, earlier this week.
16:47We have to take all comers, anybody who makes a request in the day,
16:51we have to give a response that day.
16:53Now, it's not necessarily the definitive thing.
16:55It might be, yes, we'll book you an appointment.
16:58There is a danger we're going to have to move clinicians away from seeing patients
17:02to actually answering those queries.
17:04And that may reduce the number of appointments and actually make the waiting times longer.
17:09And there's concerns amongst my colleagues, but we really don't know.
17:12It's very early to know whether it's going to be very negative or a positive thing for people.
17:17The people will not lose the opportunity to have face-to-face meetings with their doctors.
17:24We will still have all that.
17:26This is addition to that.
17:27Using the technology, when you need a doctor,
17:31not all the appointments need to be in face-to-face.
17:33You can't talk to a specialist somewhere in the country.
17:36That will transform.
17:38We don't have to wait for weeks and weeks for a specialist appointment.
17:41This is brilliant news.
17:42And still with me is Labour's Alex Patterson and Conservative John Davies.
17:48Well, this was one of the big announcements of Labour's conference.
17:52John, do you think it's fair to raise expectation levels among people out there
17:55that this change will mean that you don't have to wait?
17:58I don't think it's fair if the resources aren't there to back it up
18:04because it's easy to promise the earth and deliver dirt.
18:06There are staffing issues within the NHS,
18:11but it's interesting that you've got medical professionals supporting it,
18:15but obviously there will be medical professionals,
18:18a number of them supporting it.
18:20I actually had opportunity to discuss this with a GP yesterday,
18:26who I happen to know.
18:28And knowing I was coming on here and it was on the topic,
18:32I asked them their response.
18:34And they told me that they and many of their colleagues
18:37are absolutely horrified, particularly...
18:40It's not so much the hospital...
18:42If anything could be done to flow that, great.
18:46But it's the GP online system that they're trying to bring in,
18:50and it's got a branded name...
18:52Animal, I believe.
18:53No, there's some other name on it.
18:55But the devil's in the detail with these things
18:58because it guarantees 100% contact on the day.
19:02It guarantees immediate triage.
19:05We don't know who's doing that triage, of course.
19:07Excuse me.
19:09However, underlying it all, asterisk,
19:13further down the page online, because I looked this up,
19:17is a statement saying that if you register for an appointment
19:20with the online GP to get prompt service,
19:24you are deregistered from your physical GP.
19:27So this is not a backup to smooth things
19:29and effectively reduce waiting times.
19:32That means it's simply an attempt to massage numbers
19:35because if you are taken off of that GP's list
19:38and in this virtual, you've got no point of contact.
19:42But in terms of actual care,
19:44in terms of interaction and an understanding,
19:48I'm very lucky.
19:49I have a GP, I have multiple health issues
19:51which I hope don't show
19:53and that's thanks to amazing medical support and treatment
19:56from the NHS.
19:59However, if that personal contact is lost...
20:03And that, by the way, has changed in the last couple of years
20:05because the practice that I'm registered with
20:08have started giving a much broader scope of care
20:11using pharmacy practitioners and so on
20:14to back up the GP's.
20:16But what they're doing is getting an overview
20:18on the individual.
20:20This depersonalises it
20:21and if anybody...
20:22You know, we're people.
20:24We have names, not numbers.
20:25And unfortunately, this is again...
20:26Alex, the GP's themselves have been talking
20:29with concern about the GP element of this online move
20:32that it might result in people presenting with urgent symptoms,
20:35putting them into a website
20:36and then possibly not getting a fast enough response.
20:39Do you think that this is too much too soon?
20:42I mean, I have the greatest of respect
20:44for any learned people, GPs,
20:47who are expressing an opinion on this
20:49and they probably know an awful lot more about it than me.
20:51But I would caution that...
20:53I was at the National Theatre a few weeks ago
20:55watching the production of Nigh starring Michael Sheen
20:58about the launch of the NHS
20:59and there was no more vociferous opponent
21:02of the NHS bill at that time
21:05than the British Medical Association.
21:07So, at every stage, Labour governments
21:10have had to fight the medical establishment
21:12to bring in transformative change in the NHS.
21:16So, I think we need to take that with a pinch of salt
21:19because fundamentally, the way things are now isn't working.
21:23You know, for all that...
21:25We talk about promising the earth and delivering very little.
21:28But actually, at the last election,
21:29Labour promised an extra 2 million appointments
21:31in the first year of the Labour government.
21:33They've delivered 5 million.
21:35They've delivered 1,500 more GPs into the NHS
21:38since October last year.
21:41Those are tangible changes
21:43which will improve the patient experience.
21:46But the reality is,
21:47when you try and phone for a doctor's appointment
21:49at 8 o'clock in the morning,
21:50they're usually all gone.
21:52And I don't think that any amount of triaging
21:54really impacts that.
21:57So, having some sort of guarantee
21:58that there will be a review
22:00of what you're phoning about
22:02within 24 hours
22:04sounds like a very good start to me.
22:07There's a danger, though,
22:08because take, for example...
22:10Take Greg McKinley,
22:11prime case in point,
22:13ill overnight,
22:14with no symptoms prior to that.
22:17If it wasn't for Cotty, his wife,
22:21insisting to the ambulance crew
22:24that they took him to Medway Maritime,
22:26he would not be with us
22:27because within 30 minutes of arrival,
22:29he was completely blue
22:30and in full septic shock.
22:33Had that been an online...
22:35And the ambulance had attended following...
22:38Yeah?
22:39But they had to push and push
22:41just to get that.
22:43And the ambulance crew at the time,
22:45even with that face-to-face,
22:46had said,
22:47well, see your doctor later
22:48if you still feel rough.
22:50I'm not blaming anybody.
22:51What I am saying is
22:52there was one solution
22:54to keeping him alive
22:55and that was eye-to-eye personal care.
22:58And then at Medway Maritime,
22:59they said,
23:00we cannot deal with this here
23:01and he was transferred into London.
23:03That's one case.
23:04But if you look at the media,
23:06sepsis is a huge thing at the moment
23:08and it's affecting an awful lot of people.
23:12This is really dangerous.
23:14The GP I referred to earlier
23:15said to me,
23:16this will kill more people
23:17than any pandemic
23:18and it is that deadly serious.
23:21People will remember
23:22that the last Conservative government
23:23made a pledge
23:24to build 40 new hospitals
23:26and obviously not one of those
23:27has been built yet.
23:28Is this a better system than that?
23:32Difficult to answer again,
23:34not being...
23:35I'll refer to Alex's point.
23:36We're not medical practitioners
23:37and I would always defer
23:39to the majority view
23:41with those specialists.
23:43I do have a background
23:44having had an in-law for many years
23:47who was quite an eminent GP
23:49and things.
23:50So I'd like to think
23:51I've got a view
23:52from both sides of the divide
23:54as well
23:54because, you know,
23:56GPs tend to be fairly socially minded
23:58rather than just focused
24:00on the bottom line
24:01and that's where, again,
24:02a lot of the time
24:03the problems come
24:04is, you know,
24:05it's too fragmented.
24:07So yes,
24:08things that streamline
24:09the service and everything,
24:12absolutely fabulous.
24:13I've had online consultations
24:15as have friends
24:15and we're very happy with them.
24:17But to take people
24:20off of their physical GP's list,
24:22I think,
24:23is certainly a step too far
24:24and there needs to be mitigation
24:27for the dangers
24:28that are in there.
24:29But as I say,
24:30it's the fact,
24:30why take them off
24:31of their own GP's list
24:33if they can actually
24:34relieve the pressure
24:35on that GP's list?
24:36I don't know about that detail
24:38and that's...
24:40Well, again,
24:40the devil's in the detail, Alex.
24:42Absolutely.
24:43But the reality is
24:44that people who work
24:46away from home,
24:47it's not necessarily
24:48convenient for them
24:49if the doctor was able
24:50to offer them an appointment
24:51to take time off work,
24:54you know,
24:54commute back from London
24:55for a doctor appointment.
24:56So actually,
24:56in terms of the convenience
24:57that this potentially offers people,
24:59I think that's a massive opportunity.
25:01And again,
25:02what I was saying earlier
25:03about what we're doing
25:03with Medway 2.0,
25:05what I would hope
25:06is that there is a recognition
25:07that there are still people
25:09that would expect
25:10to be able to see
25:12someone face to face.
25:13And I think that
25:14delivering the sort of service
25:15that people want
25:16as they want it
25:17is more appropriate.
25:19I'd actually be much happier
25:20getting a quick online appointment
25:22because very rarely
25:24when you go to the doctors
25:25do they even touch you.
25:26You know,
25:27there's very little
25:28that's ever happened to me
25:29at a doctor's surgery
25:30that couldn't have been done
25:31down a Zoom call.
25:32So,
25:33and that's not to say
25:34that there aren't
25:34other examinations
25:35that have to be done
25:36face to face,
25:37physically.
25:38I absolutely accept that.
25:39But the experience of this,
25:40for example,
25:41at Moorfields Eye Hospital,
25:42I know that they've been
25:43working on
25:44a new online
25:46sort of consultancy
25:47for elective care.
25:48They managed to cut
25:49the number of people
25:50who had to come into Moorfields
25:51in half,
25:52essentially.
25:53That's, again,
25:55got to take pressure
25:56off staff
25:56and make life
25:58a lot more convenient
25:59for patients.
26:00Well, this week
26:01has really been defined
26:02by Keir Starmer
26:02trying to redefine
26:04and rebrand
26:05his government.
26:06Alex,
26:06will he still be
26:07Prime Minister
26:07this time next year,
26:08do you think?
26:09I have no reason
26:10to think not.
26:11I mean,
26:11I think that was
26:12a barnstorming
26:13conference speech
26:15and I know that
26:15like a lot of
26:17Labour Party members,
26:18I left conference
26:19in Liverpool
26:20feeling more energised
26:21than I had going into it
26:23and that's,
26:24you know,
26:24down to some of the
26:26things that,
26:27you know,
26:27I'd like to think
26:27that Keir has been
26:28taking a leaf out
26:29of Medway Labour's book
26:30in terms of
26:31taking the fight
26:32to the common enemy
26:34that I think we have.
26:35We'll have to end there.
26:37Thank you so much
26:37to both of you
26:38for joining us.
26:39That's it for the
26:39Kent Politics Show
26:40this week.
26:41Stay tuned for Kent
26:42Tonight,
26:43which is coming up next
26:44and we'll see you
26:44next week.
26:57Bye.
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