Employee Theft & Fraud: What Business Owners Miss | Dr. Willie Ng

Name: Employee Theft & Fraud: What Business Owners Miss | Dr. Willie Ng
Uploaded: 2026-11-12T17:19:41+00:00
Duration: 47 min 44 s
Channel: Workforce Alchemy

00:08Welcome to the Workforce Alchemy Show.

00:11I'm today's host, Mason Dukacek, and this episode is brought to you by WorkforceAlchemy.com,

00:17where business leaders discover practical ways to select, engage, and retain their best

00:22employees.

00:23My guest today, Dr. Willie Ning, has spent more than 30 years making decisions where

00:29mistakes can have serious consequences.

00:31He served 22 years with the San Antonio Police Department, worked on a U.S. Secret Service

00:37Task Force, led criminal investigators at the Bexar County District Attorney's Office,

00:43and built Blue Armor Security.

00:46Today, we're going to find out what that experience can teach business leaders about judgment,

00:52preparation, accountability, and leading when the pressure is real.

00:56Dr. Ning, welcome to the show.

00:59Thank you for having me.

01:01So, you spent years in law enforcement making decisions where you couldn't wait until you

01:06had perfect information.

01:08When a CEO or business executive has to make important decisions before all the facts are

01:13available, what do you look for first to keep urgency from turning into recklessness?

01:19I would say the key thing there is preparation.

01:22I mean, you've got to be prepared.

01:24You have to have gone through some type of programs in the what-ifs, right, of the industry.

01:29You know, law enforcement, we thrive on tactics on the what-if circumstances.

01:34What if this should happen?

01:35What if that should happen?

01:36And we practice that repeatedly over and over again.

01:40You know, we go to the shooting range multiple times a year.

01:43We do tactical drills multiple times a year.

01:45So, that way, whenever we have to make that split-second decision, we already have that

01:50muscle memory, right?

01:51We already know what would be the appropriate response.

01:54And we don't get it right every single time.

01:56But at least we have something that we can say, I was prepared for something similar to

02:01this.

02:01And this is the actions I took.

02:03That's why first responders are called first responders, not first reactors, right?

02:07We don't react to things.

02:09We respond appropriately based on our training.

02:12And that I took from that into the private sector with my business, is I looked at the

02:17what-if situations in my business.

02:19And then I trained myself, and I learned, and I took courses and everything else, prepared

02:25myself.

02:26So, that way, again, if something should happen, I'll respond appropriately to those circumstances,

02:31whether it's a staff issue or a client issue, whatever the issue may be, I've kind of been

02:36prepared.

02:37I've prepared myself for that.

02:40That's a very good reminder.

02:41And I'm not going to oversimplify that, but I can relate to what you're talking about.

02:45I remember, you know, this was way over 30 years ago, but I remember going to the U.S.

02:49Army Airborne School.

02:52And the first week, all we did was learn how to fall in sawdust pits where we hit soft tissue

02:58so we're not going to break ankles or knees or arms or whatever.

03:04And literally, we just practiced falling from the left, falling from the right, falling, coming

03:08backward, falling, coming forward.

03:10And then week two, they put us up in these harnesses, and it was tower week.

03:14And they let us feel what it was like, and then we would land with the harness, and they

03:18dropped us from, I think it was a 250-foot tower.

03:20So when we got in and we jumped out of 34-foot towers to simulate exiting the plane so that

03:27when jump week came, we didn't have to think about anything.

03:31Everything had been drilled in us so much.

03:33Just like you'd say, it was, I don't know what were the exact words you used, but the

03:37general gist of it was, it wasn't something we had to think about.

03:40It was a natural reaction because it had been drilled into us so much.

03:45We didn't have to think about what to do.

03:47And I assure you, there were lots of people standing in the doors of an airplane, perfectly

03:52good airplane, 2,000 feet in the air, thinking, hey, this is stressful.

03:58And we didn't have time to think.

03:59We already had been drilled into us so that we didn't have to.

04:02So I think that's excellent advice.

04:05And that's a really good example you gave there.

04:09And I didn't know that, right?

04:10I didn't serve in the military, just law enforcement.

04:12But to that point, they train you for those what-if situations, right?

04:16And if you're going to have to jump, at least you have like a muscle memory that when you're

04:19jumping, you already know how you're going to fall and how to prevent injury from falling.

04:24There's no difference than running a business.

04:26How do you prepare injury from your business?

04:28How do you prepare losing a client?

04:31How do you prepare from losing an employee or other direction, right?

04:36How do you hold that employee accountable where you have to take some kind of disciplinary

04:41action?

04:43In police work and criminal investigations, you learn to notice things that other people

04:47miss.

04:48What warning signs inside a business tell you that a small problem is about to become a

04:52bigger one?

04:53You know, the thing is this.

04:55You've got so the biggest issue I've seen with entrepreneurs and business owners is they

05:02have their blindfolds on, right?

05:05They're biased and they have their blinders on and they only see one way.

05:09And that's it.

05:10And you know in the military, when you're especially at the shooting range, they have this thing

05:13called scan down scan.

05:15What that means is, yes, there's a threat in front of you, but you've got to temporarily

05:20look other ways because there may be another threat coming, right?

05:22So you can't just get tunnel vision onto the threat.

05:27Well, you can't get tunnel vision onto the issue that you're dealing with as an entrepreneur.

05:32Take the blindfolds off and start looking different directions, right?

05:35What else could it be other than what I'm dealing with?

05:39Sometimes people hang out, especially entrepreneurs, they hang out into the symptom of the issue instead

05:45of doing a biopsy, right?

05:47And find out what is the cause of this issue.

05:50Is it my employee's behavior?

05:54Is it intentional?

05:56Or was it just a mistake that they made?

06:00Or looking within yourself, which is very difficult for leaders and entrepreneurs to do, is have

06:05self-awareness.

06:06And is it a weakness of mine?

06:08Is it a policy that I need to create?

06:11Is it better training that I need to do?

06:13Um, but a lot of entrepreneurs don't do that, right?

06:16Because they don't have self-awareness or they feel that if they identify a weakness and

06:21admit to it, that they are going to fail at their business.

06:24That's where you fail is not having self-awareness.

06:27You're not going to know it all.

06:29I learned from employees that I just bring on that are brand new in the industry with less

06:33than a year.

06:34Why?

06:35Because they may have experienced something that I have never experienced.

06:38And that is where we grow our wisdom from, right?

06:41Is our experiences.

06:41So if I never experienced a typical issue, but then I don't have any wisdom in it, but

06:46somebody else may have that has less time in the industry.

06:51What are some of the biggest mistakes leaders make when they know something is wrong in their

06:55organization, but they delay confronting it because dealing with it's going to be uncomfortable

06:58or painful?

07:00That is the biggest mistake, delaying it, right?

07:03That's the biggest thing is, is, is they don't address it head on.

07:06Look, there, there's some times where I have to go sit down with the client and, and I got

07:11to take responsibility and I've got to say, this is the issue and this is how we're going

07:16to address it.

07:17And these are the corrective actions.

07:19A lot of leaders and entrepreneurs want to hide that.

07:22They want to conceal it.

07:24They want to, they don't want to deal with it, right?

07:26Because it may get out and expose the business for whatever reason.

07:30I'm telling you right now, if you do not biopsy your issues and address them, it's going to

07:36spread.

07:37And I use this analogy and I know some people got offended initially when I talk about biopsies,

07:42but then it realized that I battled stage four cancer in 2017.

07:46I had stage four throat cancer.

07:49And I remember going to the doctor and going to the doctor and saying, Hey, look, I got

07:53this little lump right here.

07:55There's something wrong.

07:55I feel fine.

07:57The blood work was excellent.

07:58And the doctor kept saying, you're fine.

08:00Here's some antibiotics, you know, take the antibiotics.

08:03You'll be okay.

08:04The bottle of antibiotics was empty and I still had this lump, no other symptoms, just this

08:08little lump.

08:09And I kept telling him there's something there.

08:11There's something wrong.

08:12So he did a CT scan and he did an ultrasound, which that's going to tell me what I already

08:17know, right?

08:18There's a little lump there, a little mass.

08:19So finally I pushed for the doctor and said, we need to do something.

08:23He goes, well, the only other thing to do is a biopsy.

08:25Okay, well, let's do the biopsy, right?

08:28So they do the biopsy and they find out it's cancer.

08:32By the time I get to my CT PET scan, it's spreading.

08:36It's now in my jaw, my right side of the jaw, it started in my throat.

08:39Now it's spreading to my left side of the jaw and the bone.

08:43So I tell people, use that, my situation and apply it to your life.

08:52Because whether it's a marriage, whether it's a business, whether it's your career, if you

08:58hang out into the symptom of your issues and you never do a biopsy to find out what is

09:04the true cause of them, just like cancer, it's going to spread and it can kill whatever it's

09:10infecting, right?

09:11Whether it's a human, whether it's your marriage, whether it's your career, whether it's your

09:15business.

09:16If you do not biopsy it and find out what is the cause, it's going to die off.

09:21Look, I didn't want to know that or for the outcome to be that it's cancer.

09:26I didn't want to know that.

09:29But as ugly as it was to find out and it's hurtful and stressful, at least I knew what the

09:34issue was.

09:35And then the next now, once you identify that issue, how do we address it?

09:39How do we fix it?

09:41How do we restore the marriage?

09:42How do we restore the business?

09:43How do we restore the career?

09:44How do you restore your health?

09:46And that's why they call them difficult conversations, because if it was easy, then there wouldn't

09:51be a reason to delay it.

09:52I'm going to give a shout out to a friend of mine.

09:54Her name's Marlene Chisholm, and she wrote a book called From Conflict to Courage.

09:59And I read it.

10:00I had a long flight and I read it not too long ago, and it literally addressed that exact

10:06topic of how to have those difficult conversations and not get derailed.

10:11And once I read it, I felt much more comfortable and competent in my ability to have a productive

10:19conversation and a very necessary one sometimes, for the reasons that you're talking about.

10:27It can only get worse if you let it grow.

10:31Absolutely.

10:31So you led 54 investigators and a staff at the Bexar County District Attorney's Office.

10:38How do you create accountability among highly experienced people without making them feel

10:42that leadership is constantly looking over their shoulder?

10:45Yeah, you know, it's always how you articulate your response, right?

10:49And you also got to identify some of the issues you handle.

10:52Was it a mistake or was it misconduct?

10:54Because there's a big difference in those two, right?

10:57And so I always looked at each one.

10:59How do you handle each other?

11:01I'm sorry?

11:02How do you handle a mistake and how do you handle misconduct?

11:04So the mistake obviously is not intentional, right?

11:08And so you address the issue and you talk about how are we going to take corrective action.

11:13And it may be also that it's a policy issue, right?

11:16So you've got to look at all sides of it.

11:18You can't just look at the mistake itself individually.

11:20You've got to look at, okay, what was laid out prior to policies, procedures that led to this

11:27person, that this person should know how to address it.

11:30And then what did the mistake happen?

11:32What did the failure of communication happen, right?

11:34Because mistakes mean non-intentional, right?

11:36Now, when you're talking about misconduct, misconduct obviously is now you're talking about a disciplinary

11:41issue.

11:41This was intentional.

11:43This person knew it was wrong and this person took the action.

11:46Now, depending on what type of misconduct it is will determine how you handle it.

11:51Is it a write-up?

11:53Is it a suspension without pay?

11:55Is it counseling?

11:57Is it further training?

11:58Or do you terminate?

12:00Because some of these mistakes, I'm sorry, some of these misconducts are so egregious that

12:06you have to terminate.

12:08This person could be poison to your organization.

12:11It could hurt your business.

12:12It could hurt your customers.

12:14And so there's going to be times where you have to make that tough decision where you're

12:18going to have to terminate someone so that way you remove that cancer from your organization.

12:24And a lot of times you've got employees or customers are both looking to see how you

12:29handle that so they know what is and isn't acceptable there.

12:32Exactly.

12:33Yeah, we've had some tough, we've had some, I mean, I've been in the business for 23 years

12:37now and we've had some tough things that I've encountered that I've had to take some really

12:45real aggressive action.

12:48And the clients appreciate that.

12:51And one of them, I'm fortunate to say this, it was only one incident, but we had to get

12:57law enforcement involved.

12:59And the justice system had to come in and take over for accountability for the actions

13:04of a staff.

13:05But even with that, the client was super happy and said, look, you went over and beyond.

13:12You helped us and you even helped us get justice in this particular situation.

13:16And that spoke volumes to that client.

13:18And, you know, 15 years later, there's still a client.

13:22Right.

13:23So you worked investigations involving repeat offenders, financial crimes, fraud, and organized

13:30criminal activity.

13:30What did those experiences teach you about trusting people without becoming naive, especially

13:36when someone's credibility, resume, or confidence makes them appear trustworthy?

13:40Yeah, that was pretty tough, right?

13:42I mean, because some, and I learned really, really, really young in this investigations,

13:49because when I first promoted to a detective on the police department, I went into this repeat

13:55offenders program, it's called ROPE, and it's undercover.

13:58And so you're dealing with a lot of informants.

14:01And some of these informants are very convincing.

14:04I mean, obviously they're, that's, some of them are very good at what they do.

14:08That's why they do a lot of this fraud, right?

14:11Because they really believe, people really believe in what they say.

14:15And it was, you really have to separate that, right?

14:18Your emotions from the work.

14:21And so I really had to learn to not trust anyone at that time when I was working undercover and,

14:29and put the benefit of doubt though in some of them, but also kept that distance.

14:34And where I understood that, Hey, this is person is, is not a good person.

14:38That's why I'm actually dealing with them to begin with on undercover status.

14:41Um, and then, but, but once you learn that, right.

14:44And you start to read body language and you start to understand that, uh, then I kind

14:48of took that from the law enforcement side of it into the private sector.

14:52Uh, I, I, I, you know, I studied it.

14:54I studied body language.

14:56I studied when you ask a person a question and direction, different directions.

15:00They look, whether they're trying to come up with a response, uh, honest response,

15:04or if they're going to lie to you, uh, you're talking about NLP there about how, where people

15:09look like, look upper and left to visually remember stuff they saw.

15:13They look straight left to remember stuff they heard, uh, upper right.

15:18If they look upright, I think they're looking for, they're creating or making up what they

15:23think, what they say they saw or look direct, right.

15:26If they're making up what they said, someone said, is that the kind of stuff you're talking

15:31about?

15:31That's exactly it.

15:32That's exactly it.

15:34And then you'll, then you'll have those that you ask a question and all of a sudden they

15:37sit back in the chair and they do this right now they're guarded.

15:41Now they're no, they, they feel like their backs against the wall.

15:44So now they're kind of, they're going to try to create a barrier between you and the person,

15:49you know, the suspect or the person you're talking to.

15:51You could use those same skills in law enforcement into the private sector, right?

15:56If you're addressing an issue with, with, with one of your coworkers or your staff members

16:00or your, your subordinates, and all of a sudden you see that, right?

16:04That block and they're pushing back and they're trying to create distance.

16:08You should, that's a sign, right?

16:09And to your point, the different directions are looking, looking down right away, looking

16:13away from you.

16:15You know, they're going to answer you, but they look away and we're answering you because

16:17they can make contact in a lot of those situations.

16:30So a couple of thoughts on that.

16:32Number one, for those who are watching and listening, the best book I've ever read about

16:35that kind of stuff is by Tony Robbins called unlimited power.

16:38And he talks about how to be able to realize when people are telling the truth or when they're

16:45creating what they saw or heard.

16:50It's his book of limited power.

16:51It's fantastic.

16:52I would hope.

16:54And I think that most businesses realize where your work was you're dealing with a criminal

16:59element and it's probably best to be guarded and not trusting me when you're dealing with

17:03a criminal element.

17:04I would like to think that in the civilian context, most people, most business owners

17:12are much more trusting and I would argue they should be, but I'm not, I don't have your

17:19experience, but I would hope that I would attract the right kind of people and build a

17:23culture where honesty and truthfulness is the rule rather than the exception.

17:28But I was just curious if you had any tips on that.

17:30And I didn't expect that answer from you, but it was a very good one.

17:34And I hope that if people are dealing with some people that they're not sure what to

17:40believe or if they should believe them, the NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming techniques

17:46you're talking about featured in Tony Robbins' book, Unlimited Power, are awesome and could

17:51be put to good use.

17:53I'll shift gears a little bit.

17:55You founded Blue Armor while you were still working in law enforcement.

17:59What was the hardest transition you had to make from thinking like a police officer to

18:04thinking like a business owner responsible for payroll growth, customers, and employees?

18:08Yeah, it was a big shift.

18:11It was an eye-opener.

18:12And I did, you know, like I said, I had self-awareness.

18:14I knew I was struggling at the very beginning because just as you mentioned, I'm going from

18:18I don't trust anyone to, okay, now I've got to lead these individuals, these staff, and

18:25I have a big responsibility to them, to the employees.

18:29I've got to provide work for them so that way they can put food on the table and support

18:32their family.

18:33And so it was a really big shift for me.

18:36And I'm glad, though, that I had that attribute in law enforcement.

18:39The law enforcement side of it, obviously, in the security industry really helped.

18:44It brought a lot of credibility to the company.

18:46When people came to me and said, tell me about your business, and they knew I had law enforcement

18:50background as an investigator and, you know, a bunch of accolades of the things that I've

18:55done in the agency, it brought a lot of substance to the organization, to my business.

18:59And so it opened a lot of doors.

19:01But now I've got to learn to lead, right?

19:04Because in law enforcement, especially at the district attorney's office, as you mentioned,

19:08I had over 50 investigators plus several civilians that were under me.

19:12And I was responsible for, you know, budget and everything else.

19:16I mean, that's a government entity, right?

19:19So they will follow the leader because they have to, right?

19:23They don't have a choice.

19:26That's their job.

19:27That's what they get paid to do.

19:28In my business, it's a choice.

19:31If my employees don't like the way I lead or if I don't treat them right, they can resign

19:36and go work for another security company really easy.

19:38There's so many security companies out there.

19:40And so that was a challenge, right?

19:43It's like, hey, now I'm in a position where they don't have to follow me.

19:47It's a choice.

19:49And the choice is going to be made determined on how I lead.

19:52So, and I understand, I understood very early on, especially with my administrators, I told

19:57them, our employees are far more important than we are.

20:00I said, because, for example, when I was battling cancer, you know, I was out for a long period

20:07of time going through chemo and radiation.

20:09And because I had great employees and great leaders, the company ran and continued to run.

20:16But if someday all my employees say, you know what, we're out of here, you're a horrible

20:22leader, we're gone, we're resigning, my company would fail.

20:26There's no way that myself and my leadership could run all our contracts.

20:32So as an entrepreneur, you need to understand and admit that your employees are far more important

20:37than you are in terms of executing the daily operations.

20:41And some leaders don't think that way.

20:43Some entrepreneurs say they feel like it's them, that they're the most important.

20:48And it's not.

20:49Being a business owner, it's a big responsibility, especially as your company grows and as you

20:54have more and more employees, your responsibility grows.

20:57Now you have more employees you have to provide for training and keeping your clients, keeping

21:04them employed, keep driving that workforce.

21:06It's very critical.

21:08I'm going to go back just a couple of minutes.

21:11I missed an opportunity to piggyback on something you were saying.

21:14I completely missed it and I shouldn't have.

21:17For those watching and listening, Dr.

21:21Ning and I were talking offline.

21:22He was a police officer in San Antonio.

21:25And the company I bought, I bought from an industrial psychologist in San Antonio.

21:31And his specialty was helping companies with the integrity issue.

21:38And he did a bunch of different pre-employment tests and psychometric tests.

21:42But one of them he did measured integrity, honesty, work ethic, reliability.

21:47And we were talking about, hey, I don't know if I should trust these people.

21:50These industrial psychologists are not just the one that I bought the company from, but other

21:53industrial psychologists are masters at helping companies identify high risk employees.

22:00Because obviously so much of your business is built on trust and reputation, et cetera.

22:05But to give you an idea of how good these guys are, years ago, there was a company president

22:11and head of HR, and they were using one of these integrity tests.

22:15And they called me in and the HR guy was like, hey, I really like this applicant.

22:19He's super good.

22:20He's got references from other people in our company that we like.

22:24But this assessment is showing that he's got some high risk attitudes, and I don't believe

22:29it.

22:30I got the industrial psychologist who created that tool on the phone, and he said, and this

22:35was literally like a two minute conversation.

22:38There's a hundred something questions in there.

22:40But one of the questions was something along the lines of, do you believe the average person

22:45will steal or take something that doesn't belong to them if they're certain there's no way

22:48they'll get caught?

22:49And the applicant's answer was yes.

22:52Then there was another question down the road, you know, probably 20 or 30 questions later.

22:56Do you believe the average employee is justified in taking something that doesn't belong to

23:00them because the employer expects so much and pays so little?

23:04And he said yes.

23:06The third question near the very end of the survey said, how would you rate your honesty

23:12compared to most other people?

23:13Far above average, above average, average, below average, or far below average?

23:17The applicant said average.

23:19The industrial psychologist simply said to the employer, this person says the average

23:25person will steal.

23:25The average person is justified.

23:27Oh, by the way, I'm average.

23:28Put those three things together.

23:29I will steal and I'm justified.

23:31And that was all it took.

23:32These industrial psychologists are amazing at being able to get at that kind of information.

23:38And when you can get information about whether or not someone's honest before you hire them,

23:42I'm a huge fan of this, obviously.

23:45How do you reduce fraudulent workers comp?

23:47You hire people who won't lie about being hurt.

23:49How do you reduce employee theft?

23:50And I'm not talking just tangible theft.

23:52I'm also talking time theft, cheating on reports, et cetera.

23:55You hire people who have a conscience and their identity is that of I don't steal because I'm

24:00not a thief.

24:01I mean, you can solve a whole bunch of business problems before they occur just by finding out

24:06if people are something as simple as honest.

24:08And you have spent a career dealing with people who aren't honest and you know firsthand way

24:13more than most of the people in society what those consequences are because you've dealt

24:17in that criminal element to such a degree that naive people have no concept of the depth

24:22and amount of nonsense that goes on out there.

24:28You have special insights there.

24:30Yeah.

24:32Yeah.

24:32No, I really love that you brought that up because there's a lot of, especially law

24:37enforcement, you know, I have consulted with some law enforcement agencies and I talk about

24:41these assessments and I talk about these surveys and, you know, it's interesting to find out

24:45that a lot of these administrators, chiefs and sheriffs, they're terrified of these things.

24:50Why?

24:50Because they don't want to know some of these issues.

24:53Because what does that mean?

24:54As you mentioned a while ago, it's difficult to address them.

24:57But not just that, now to them, they see it as weakness.

25:02If we do a survey and the majority, which has happened here locally, if they do a survey

25:08and the majority of the subordinates say there's a leadership issue, well, it's difficult, right,

25:13for the leaders to digest that.

25:15And some will maybe become defensive or some may think that, oh, there's people relying

25:19on the survey.

25:21So a lot of these agencies and businesses also, they stay away from surveys.

25:24And I don't know why, because they're so, they're very valuable on how to prepare for

25:32changes, but also to your point, being proactive and do these surveys and these tests to maybe

25:39prevent from hiring someone, as you mentioned, the example you gave, someone who's more than

25:44likely going to steal at some point when he finds that opportunity to do so.

25:48Well, I can actually give you the response.

25:51I didn't expect the conversation to go this way, but it's okay since we're here.

25:53But I can give you a response to those people who are worried that someone can trick the

25:59assessments.

26:01The best industrial psychologists build these tools with what they call a lie scale or distortion

26:06score.

26:07And those are trick questions that are built into the assessment to tell you as the employer

26:10that someone's trying to fake good or tell you what they think that you tell you what

26:15they think you want to hear as an employer.

26:17I will give you one example.

26:19An assessment might ask a question like, I've never argued with my parents.

26:25Now, someone who's trying to fake good will look at a question like that and they'll say,

26:30what answer can I give that's going to make me sound the best like they would on all the

26:33others?

26:34And they'll say, well, gee, if I admit that I argue with my parents, they might think I'd

26:38argue with my customers or my coworkers or my supervisors.

26:41I don't want them to think I'm argumentative.

26:43So I'm going to say no.

26:45Now, if you're being real and answering it honestly, you're going to say, of course, I've

26:48argued with my parents.

26:49Mom, can I stay out a little extra late?

26:51Hey, can I have an extra slice of cake when you're a little kid?

26:54Or whatever it may be.

26:56Can I, you've argued, oh, why can't I have my friend Timmy over?

27:00Whatever.

27:01Of course, we've argued with our parents.

27:02But someone who's trying to fake good, they look at every question and they say, what

27:06answer can I give that's going to make me sound the best?

27:08And they trigger those distortion scores.

27:10And these psychologists are smart enough to build those things into it that they can

27:14tell you as an employer if someone's trying to fake good and whether or not that was a

27:20creative writing exercise for them.

27:22So if you have folks out there in your neck of the woods that are saying, hey, I don't

27:27know if I can trust these results.

27:29Oh, yeah, you can, because these things are, there's much more to them than the casual

27:35observer would think.

27:36Right.

27:37And as you mentioned, you know, you got over 100 questions.

27:40So they can also articulate other questions very similar to that one.

27:44And where actually you'll see, right, the discrepancy of, well, you answered this one

27:48and you answered this one differently.

27:50And they almost have the same meaning because people don't think that they're focusing on

27:53each question at a time.

27:55And there's so many of them.

27:57And so, yeah, I trust them.

27:59I think they're very valuable to at least experiment with and see, do you need to make

28:05some changes within your administrators or is it your staff?

28:09I think they're great.

28:10It's a great tool to utilize.

28:14So, sorry for the little diversion.

28:16But when I heard you talk, because sometimes I forget, like you're, in this case, I didn't,

28:20almost did, but you have a different perspective than most people running businesses because

28:25you have seen the underbelly of our society up close and personal for many, many years.

28:30And you're not naive to what can and does happen where a lot of this people running businesses

28:37don't realize that until it happens to them and they can't believe that it happened to them.

28:41And this conversation, I hope, at least brought a word of caution to some people that at least

28:47be aware.

28:49Right.

28:50So, what should a CEO put in place before growth accelerates so that standards that created

28:58the company's reputation don't disappear as more people are hired?

29:02You know, number one, complacency, right?

29:05You can't be complacent.

29:06I mean, I know some businesses grow and I even hear them.

29:09I just talked to one last week.

29:11His business is so, he says it's so big and it's running itself.

29:15All he does is travel.

29:17Well, you become complacent, right?

29:18You've got to stay engaged.

29:20It's your business.

29:20It's your name.

29:21Stay engaged.

29:22And you've got to have those checks and balances.

29:25And you have to, you as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, regardless of how big your

29:29company is, you've got to be engaged.

29:31You've got to monitor those checks and balances.

29:33That person there, I gave him that same advice.

29:36I said, look, I'm glad that you're blessed and you're traveling, you're having fun, but

29:40you've got to stay engaged.

29:41I mean, because I've experienced that on the law enforcement side of it.

29:45You know, this big builder and homeowner guy who's all over Texas calls me up one day

29:51and he says, my books are a mess.

29:53Something's not right here.

29:55And so, we hired a financial auditor and he went in there and looked at it and he was

30:01missing $2.5 million.

30:03See, this is what I'm talking about.

30:05You have seen this stuff where a lot of the stuff gets covered up or hidden.

30:10Like, I know one of my friends was an executive at a major beverage company and they found

30:14out that this person was diverting.

30:16They didn't know who it was, but they saw truckloads of product missing, like big money.

30:22And for months, they investigated and couldn't find out where it was.

30:25So, they realized it had to be someone who'd been with the company a long time who would

30:28know the inner workings to be able to do this without detection.

30:32And they ended up finding out months later, after absorbing huge losses, that it was an

30:38employee nearing retirement.

30:40Did they arrest him?

30:42Did they perp walk him?

30:43Did they make an example of him?

30:45No, they threw an early retirement party for him.

30:47And that person could go because they didn't want the media attention.

30:50They didn't want the exposure in the community.

30:52They covered it up.

30:54And that individual could go work for another company and no one would know the difference

30:59at all.

31:02By not holding someone accountable, again, you mentioned it earlier and I'll say, keep repeating

31:06it because it's true.

31:07Those difficult decisions, right?

31:09That difficult thing that, okay, I have to hold this person accountable, even if it means

31:13there's media on me, regardless of what the circumstances are.

31:16Because what you do is you enable that behavior.

31:18Now you just gave that person get out of jail for free pass to go and victimize someone

31:23else.

31:24Literally.

31:26Yes.

31:27So your security work is built around recognizing danger before an incident occurs.

31:31What is the business equivalent of threat assessment?

31:34And how can a leadership team systematically identify risks that everyone else has been

31:38too comfortable to notice?

31:41Well, as we mentioned, the surveys is very critical.

31:43But also, I guess, as I mentioned, staying engaged in checks and balances, look at your

31:48doing your, do your audits.

31:50Do it, even if it's not just your annual financial audit with your, your, your tax person, I'm

31:55talking about audits, your staff, your, your materials and audit money coming in and going

32:00out.

32:00Where's this money going to?

32:01Because I can tell you this right now, I would say 99% of the money laundering cases that

32:06I handled, they didn't catch it till one, two years later, three years later.

32:11So we have issues with that, right?

32:13Also statute of limitation and how much we can, you know, pursue criminal charges because

32:17it's been happening for such a long time.

32:20And I'm trying to work with legislators here in Texas to increase that limitation, the statute

32:25of limitation, because, because some of these financial crimes are so well hidden, it takes

32:30a while for them to find out why, because we have entrepreneurs and business owners and

32:34CEOs that are not engaged and they don't have the checks and balances and they become

32:38complacent.

32:39So you've got to be engaged.

32:41You have to look at these different things.

32:43You have to look at the money going in and coming out.

32:45And some of these suspects are pretty smart.

32:47They're not going to go and hit you for thousands of dollars at a time.

32:50They're going to hit you for a couple hundred bucks here and there and you're not going to

32:53see it.

32:54And they're going to continue and continue and continue.

32:56And before you know it, now you're at thousands of dollars while the increment of what's being

33:01stolen is only a couple hundred bucks because it's not going to be as obvious.

33:05It's funny because here's a tip for people who are listening that I learned from one of

33:09my clients and it was in alignment with what you're saying, but it's a simple thing that

33:14anybody can do.

33:15This happened to be a retail sporting goods chain, but what they would do is some of their

33:20store managers every once in a while, when it came to counting the cash box at the end

33:27of the day, they throw a little odd number of extra money and they're like $7 and 36 cents

33:32extra in there.

33:33And they would have their staff come and they would wait for someone to say, I've gone over

33:39this thing three times and we're $7 and 30 something cents off.

33:43And if that didn't happen, they knew there's not attention to detail here.

33:51Something else like what other days are things not matching up?

33:54And how many times do you think they had to do that before the word got out through the

33:58chain that on any given day, the boss could have dropped some extra money in there to see

34:03if you're honest and to see if your attention to detail and to see if you're paying attention

34:09and they didn't have to do it very often.

34:11Word got out.

34:11And let's say, well, Tom Peters, you, you, you have to inspect what you expect.

34:15And that's simple.

34:17Just dropping some extra money in the, in the, in the till at the end of the day and

34:21seeing if it balances at the end of the day, or if someone comes up and says, I've done

34:25this three times or what, four times.

34:26And I don't know why we have this extra.

34:30Right.

34:31And, and what we did with this, we did with another builder is we did exactly what you

34:35just said, but in terms of money, it was materials.

34:38So we said, let's leave with order additional materials.

34:41And then when, when they go in and count this, when they're doing an audit or inventory, are

34:46they telling you, Hey, we've got an extra pallet of these tiles, or we've got the extra pallet

34:50of this, the wood, the two by fours.

34:52And if they don't tell you anything, and then later on, it's not accountable for.

34:56Okay.

34:56Now, you know, there's, you know, there's depth.

34:59Again, you can't be complacent.

35:00And I know you don't want to live in that, in the world of not trusting everyone, but you

35:05also have to do your due diligence to protect your, your, your, your

35:08business, but also your, your other employees, your honest employees, because if somebody

35:12steals from you so much, did you have to file for bankruptcy?

35:14And I've seen that happen.

35:15Now you have all your employees that don't have a job.

35:18That's why I say being a business owner, entrepreneur, or a leader with an organization,

35:22it's a lot of responsibility.

35:24And you need to take that serious and understand what that responsibility is.

35:29There was an industrial psychologist out of Las Vegas by the name of Greg Luce Ignat.

35:33And he was a mentor to me early in my career.

35:35And, and he always said, you can't judge a crook by their cover.

35:39And I've had conversations with him and other industrial psychologists, Neil Johnson as well.

35:44And those guys, and I asked Neil Johnson, the industrial psychologist, I asked him, I said,

35:50you know, when you're doing these assessment tools, how do you, I said, wouldn't people just

35:55know what the right answer is?

35:57Why would people admit to stealing or doing drugs or whatever, if they're applying for

36:02a job, it seems to me to make sense that they would put on their best foot, put their best

36:06foot forward.

36:07And he looked at me and he smiled and said, Mason, have you ever broken the speed limit?

36:11I said, well, of course.

36:12He goes, why would you admit that to me?

36:14You're admitting to breaking the law.

36:15I go, well, everybody speeds.

36:17And then he waited for the light bulb to go off above my head for me to realize that, oh,

36:21people haven't been taught values and think everyone lies, everyone cheats, everyone steals,

36:25and everyone does drugs.

36:26He goes, my purpose on this plan is to help employers identify those who think that way

36:31from those who don't so that they can select the best and avoid the worst.

36:35But he goes, the worst literally don't know any better.

36:38They don't feel any more guilt or remorse admitting to stealing or doing drugs than you

36:43or I would feel about breaking the speed limit.

36:45And that was a wake up call for me.

36:47And I've never forgotten that conversation.

36:50Yeah, it was kind of like you mentioned when you're going through that survey and how the

36:53person would justify stealing because he's underpaid.

36:57You know, that whole ideology of I deserve it because of I'm not getting paid or I deserve

37:06it because where I came from.

37:08And as before you and I came on air, we talked about my upbringing, right?

37:12I grew up on the east side of San Antonio in a 600 square foot home.

37:15And there was my younger brother, older sister, my mom and dad in this little home.

37:19I mean, we didn't have much, but I didn't allow that to make me feel like a victim.

37:25I didn't allow that to make it feel like somebody owes me something.

37:29It just meant that all the things that I want in my life, I was going to have to work

37:33harder

37:34for.

37:35You know, I wasn't the best and smartest student in high school.

37:38You know, I had trouble passing back then.

37:41We called it SAT score, you know, in algebra.

37:44And I had to go to remedial training and after school training and lunch to pass that so I

37:50can graduate.

37:51But now I'm sitting here now, blessed and humbled.

37:55I got a PhD.

37:56It's not because I'm smarter than you or anyone else, but I sacrificed my time.

38:02I worked harder.

38:04Um, I had trouble reading books cause I would get distracted and my mind would go off on

38:09somewhere else.

38:09And I still do.

38:10It just meant that instead of reading the book once and knowing everything, I probably

38:14had to read that book five times to know it as well as someone who read it once.

38:19Sacrifice, right?

38:20If you don't sacrifice your, for anything in life, you're not going to be successful at

38:24anything.

38:24If you don't sacrifice for your career, you don't sacrifice for your, your, your business.

38:30You don't sacrifice for your marriage.

38:31If you don't have any type of sacrifice, if you're not willing to sacrifice and put it

38:35in the work, you're not going to be successful.

38:37And if you're not successful, don't think that somebody owes you anything for it just because

38:41somebody else is successful at it.

38:43Now they owe you something for it.

38:44No, it doesn't work that way.

38:46I love it.

38:47So many companies have emergency plans, cybersecurity plans, succession plans, and crisis plans

38:53that look really good on paper, but they've never really been tested.

38:57How does a CEO know whether the organization is genuinely prepared or simply just has good

39:01paperwork and documentation?

39:03Execution, right?

39:04Like to, to what you just mentioned earlier is, is put those plans in action and see how

39:11it works.

39:12A lot of people don't look, they, a lot of people like to do it, especially on proposals

39:15on RFPs, right?

39:17They have these, all these things, accolades that they took to let the customer, I think

39:21made the customer a potential customer to think, wow, this company's got it together.

39:24But then they're, but they're not, they're not implementing any of these policies within

39:29their daily operations.

39:31It's just a fluff.

39:32It's a soundbite to get more contracts.

39:35And so, but it's going to, it's going to eventually catch up with them.

39:38If they're not implementing these policies and checks and balances, they're going to see

39:43their company hurt.

39:44And then they're going to wonder why, right?

39:45Why, why is this happening?

39:46And again, I see all the time on the criminal side of it.

39:49And also on the consulting side of it, we have to, we have to implement these things.

39:55Don't just say that you have these things and don't just, and you know what I'm seeing

39:59a lot, Mason, a lot right now?

40:01AI.

40:02That's what I've been asking.

40:03I was getting ready to ask, like looking at workplace safety and organizational risk

40:06today, what threat are business owners underestimating because it doesn't yet feel urgent enough

40:12to demand their attention.

40:13And I think AI might be where you're heading with that.

40:16Well, I will say this.

40:18I've seen a lot of people will use AI to create these policies and security measures

40:25in terms of language, right?

40:28They're using AI and they're saying, Hey, give me a proposal or build me a proposal or

40:32build me a program that I can respond to that helps employee theft or leadership.

40:38And AI will spit it out and they'll take, they'll take that information and they'll copy

40:42and paste it into their proposals or their policies.

40:45Just because fluff, it looks good, but they're not implementing it at all.

40:50They're not actually doing these things that they're saying that they're doing or implementing

40:53and some of them don't even know how to.

40:55They're just taking this AI information and they're plugging it in.

40:58So you got to be very careful with that.

41:00I know a lot of businesses are using that.

41:02A lot of people are using it for their resumes.

41:03To your point.

41:04Some of them have great resume, great bio.

41:07Man, this is articulate.

41:08It's written really well.

41:09Well, it wasn't written by the applicant.

41:13And then you do a survey, as you mentioned, and the applicant fails it miserably.

41:18So again, there's, again, checks and balances.

41:20You can't just take one thing and say, and let your emotions tug on you and say, I like

41:24this person because whatever reason, you've got to be complacent.

41:28You can be complacent and you got to check all the boxes to make sure this is a good

41:31employee or this is a good policy.

41:33Is it even logistically possible to implement this policy?

41:38A lot of people want to do these things and logistically they can't for whatever reason,

41:42whether it's administrative issues or whether it's financial issues, whatever it may be.

41:46Be, again, self-awareness, understand your weaknesses, understand your strengths.

41:52I love it.

41:54It's, I've always thought that the employers have a responsibility to do everything within

41:59their power to gather as much job-related information as they possibly can before they

42:03make an offer.

42:04I'm talking background checks.

42:05I'm talking drug testing.

42:07I'm talking assessment tools.

42:08I'm talking interviews.

42:09I'm talking all of that stuff.

42:12And a lot of times people get, I see people get in a hurry and they skip some steps and

42:19it's almost like agreeing to play Russian roulette without checking all the chambers of the

42:22weapon first.

42:25You nailed it.

42:26And I tell people that, that my, what I always tell people, they don't bite more than you

42:31can chew.

42:31You know, so many people want to grow right away.

42:35They want everything tomorrow and it's going to hurt them.

42:38You know, and I say, look, take baby steps.

42:41Let's get you on first base.

42:42Then let's get you on second base.

42:44Everyone will try to hit that home run right away.

42:46This is wicked.

42:47We can round the bases and get you on home plate the right way.

42:52And this baby steps, let's not try to bite more than you can chew.

42:55Don't try to say you could do something and then you fail at it because then it's going

42:58to hurt your business.

42:59I said, so don't over promise.

43:01Be realistic.

43:02And to be honest with you, a lot of these clients like that.

43:05A lot of these clients say, hey, Willie, can you provide this service?

43:08I can't.

43:09I can research it.

43:10I can find someone who can, or I can figure out how to implement it.

43:14But at this moment right now, I wouldn't be able to logistically, logistically wouldn't

43:18be able to do it.

43:19And they like that honesty.

43:20People like that, you know, you just being honest with them.

43:26You and I could hang out.

43:28Like I, we are very much of like mind in this area.

43:31So after three decades in environments where preparation, judgment, and accountability have

43:36real consequences.

43:37What is one practice that you think every CEO should put into place now before they discover

43:42they needed it during a crisis?

43:45Well, again, every industry is different, right?

43:47And so every industry has different what ifs, you know, so I would look at whatever industry

43:53you're in and what ifs, what are the possibilities of things that could occur and prepare yourself

43:58for that?

43:59I mean, you know, like, like, like, for example, in law enforcement.

44:03I mean, I've been in some very, very split second decisions where I couldn't call my sergeant

44:08to say, this is what I have, what do you want me to do?

44:12You know, I mean, I was involved in a shooting in 1998 with three suspects that were armed

44:16and had drugs and everything else.

44:18And it all started off with me just getting a coffee at a local gas station and somebody

44:23walking in and saying, I just left this house and this is what's going on.

44:27And so the house was literally walking distance.

44:31I mean, as soon as you drove out of the parking lot of the gas station, the house was right

44:34there to the right.

44:35I didn't have time to get on the radio because the suspects were leaving to say, hey, Sarge,

44:40I've got this information and the suspects are leaving.

44:44And what do you want me to do?

44:46No, it was like, I've trained myself for this.

44:48I've prepared myself for this situation.

44:50And so now I got to respond appropriately.

44:53It's the same thing with private sector.

44:54You've got to look at the what ifs in your business and you've got to say, okay, how

44:59am I going to address these?

45:01How am I going to identify these things?

45:03What am I going to do to correct?

45:05What are the corrective actions?

45:07Be prepared.

45:07Think about all those things.

45:08A lot of people just are so focused on chasing the dollar and they don't understand the importance

45:14of the foundation of your business.

45:17You know, and that's your foundation.

45:18I mean, you know, if you ever see a house that has horrible foundation, what happens?

45:24It starts to shift, right?

45:26Windows don't open anymore.

45:28Doors don't open and close anymore.

45:30There's issues, cracks, right?

45:33And so then now you have to rebuild everything.

45:36But if you build your business with a strong foundation, yes, you're going to have some

45:40structural issues throughout your career, your business.

45:43What do you do?

45:44Knock it down.

45:45Rebuild it.

45:46Because you have a strong foundation, you can do that.

45:49But if you don't have your strong foundation initially, whatever you put on top of that,

45:53your business, however you build the growth, it's going to start to crack.

45:56It's going to start to crumble.

45:58So do your foundation first.

46:00Put all those irons and make it strong.

46:03And look, you're going to have some issues throughout your career.

46:06I have in 23 years.

46:07Sure.

46:08But what do I do?

46:10I knock some stuff down, remove some stuff, and just build it back up again.

46:15If people, first of all, I appreciate all your time, your wisdom, and your insights.

46:19If people want to know more about you and your work, what are the best ways for them

46:21to connect?

46:23I say the best way is my website.

46:25So it's all one word, drwillying.com.

46:30They can reach out to me there.

46:31It sounds like N-I-N-G, but it's just N-G.

46:34Correct.

46:35Yes, sir.

46:35So it's D-R-W-I-L-L-I-E-N-G.com.

46:40Perfect.

46:40And they can reach out to me there.

46:42There's a link there.

46:43They can reach out to me.

46:44I can call them, give them my cell phone, email.

46:47We do some consulting stuff, and we do it all.

46:51So I want people to be successful.

46:53I want to plant those seeds into people of hope and skills and leadership, and then let

46:59those seeds harvest sometime and let them be successful.

47:02Because if they're successful, then the city they're in or the county they're in is going

47:05to have economic development, economic workforce growth, and prosperity, and that's what we

47:09want.

47:10Awesome.

47:10Hey, before we wrap up, I want to leave people listening, we're watching, with one practical

47:14next step.

47:15If you want less turnover, less workplace drama, and more discretionary effort from your existing

47:20team, I want to invite you to apply for the Workforce Alchemy Challenge at WorkforceAlchemy.com,

47:25where you can get expert training and have the opportunity to qualify for up to $1,000 worth

47:29of the tools that you can actually use.

47:32It's been a pleasure.

47:34Thank you, Dr. Ning, for joining us, and for those watching and listening, we're glad you

47:37joined us today.

47:39Yeah, it's been an honor.

47:40Thank you very much.

Employee Theft & Fraud: What Business Owners Miss | Dr. Willie Ng

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