Why Great Leaders MUST Get Their Hands Dirty | Debbie McKinley on Leadership, HR & Company Culture

Name: Why Great Leaders MUST Get Their Hands Dirty | Debbie McKinley on Leadership, HR & Company Culture
Uploaded: 2026-10-27T10:09:16+00:00
Duration: 53 min 36 s
Channel: Workforce Alchemy

00:02Welcome to the Workforce Alchemy Show. I'm today's host, Mason Dukacek, and this episode

00:08is brought to you by WorkforceAlchemy.com, where business leaders discover practical ways to select,

00:14engage, and retain their best employees. Debbie McKinley has led people in organizations

00:19where leadership has to work at scale. A U.S. Naval Academy graduate and former Marine Corps

00:26officer, she later spent more than two decades at the Home Depot, a company with roughly 500,000

00:32employees in more than 2,400 stores across the United States, Canada, and Mexico, ultimately

00:38rising to the Vice President of Human Resources. Today, she is the Chief People Officer at

00:43Hershend Enterprises, bringing lessons from the military, frontline operations, and the C-suite

00:49to one of America's largest family entertainment companies. Debbie, welcome to the show.

00:53Thanks, Mason. Thanks for having me. So you did not simply ask for a seat at the table.

00:58You built a career that eventually put you in major operating and strategic leadership roles.

01:03What did you do differently that caused senior executives to see you as someone who could

01:07contribute beyond traditional HR? Well, I think there's a short list there. It's not a simple

01:13answer. But what I would say is what I did differently is, I'm going to use a catchphrase,

01:20I learned to dig a ditch. And so what I love about my career is in the Marine Corps. I

01:26joined in a time

01:27when I had the opportunity to not just fix aircraft, not just, you know, get out there and tell folks

01:33what to do. But I was given the opportunity to go turn wrenches with my guys. And it was just

01:38the time

01:38I served being a female and going on deployment. So I was able to get out there and do the

01:43things.

01:43With Home Depot, I worked in stores. I was a cashier, right? I had a low volume store. My first

01:51location was in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. So just given the blessing of having a very low volume

01:56store with not a lot of employees, man, you just go do the things, right? You pack freight yourself.

02:02You go be the cashier yourself. You go help customers on every aisle. And so as I grew my career,

02:08when I got here to Hershen, I go out and I make the corn dogs and I run the rides

02:14and I group

02:15families. They're called groupers. If you ever go up to coasters and how they put you in the cars and

02:20I do those things. And so what I think made me more recognizable as an HR professional to my

02:28operational partners was they understood that I knew the business and they saw that I was willing

02:34to go do the things because to be the voice of your employees, you got to know your employees.

02:39And so in many cases, I just happen to be blessed to be able to be them. And sometimes it's

02:46fun and

02:47sometimes it's not, but that doesn't matter. You just go be, you go do.

02:50So let me extrapolate for those watching and listening. We've been connected to our social

02:55channels for some time and I created mention to your posts and you, one day you posted and you were

03:00in a

03:01housekeeper's uniform. And I asked you offline, I said, did you really do the housekeeper job?

03:09And so for how long? And what did you tell me?

03:12Mason, it nearly killed me. Yes, sir. I did it. And we have several resorts. And I, a couple months

03:19ago, I went down and I served as a housekeeper and there is a magnificent team down there.

03:26Carolina is the head of housekeeping. And I went and worked for her and I said,

03:30Carolina, I need you to put me to work. Let me tell you, friends, I can make a hospital corner

03:34like no other. You and I both, we know how to, right? Like make your rack. First thing you do

03:38every day is make your bed. And in the military, I mean, living aboard ship, living in the barracks,

03:43living wherever you're living, I mean, you can make a good rack. I will tell you to do that on

03:48a 16 inch

03:49luxury mattress. Let me tell you what it does to your back after about three rooms and six beds and

03:55you're ready to die. And these ladies, they work their tails off. And it gave me great appreciation.

04:00If I am the chief people officer, I got to know my people. I got to know to be their

04:05voice in

04:06strategic decisions for the company, to be their voice when there's competition for how we're going

04:10to spend dollars. I got to know what they do. And let me tell you, they're amazing. Housekeeping is

04:16no joke. And I think I told you the story where we, the last thing that happens in any,

04:23in any hotel room anywhere, and you've seen it if you've ever traveled, is you vacuum your way out

04:28of the room, right? So that's why when you open your door to any hotel room, it looks beautiful and

04:33you can see the stripes and you walk in and there's, there's no nothing on the carpet. And that's nice.

04:39So there we are. We finished the beds. I'm stretching, recovering from my back being so sore.

04:44And we're, we're dusting and we're doing all the things and we're cleaning the bathrooms and all

04:49the stuff. And then she said, Debbie, last job, vacuum your way out of the room. And one of the

04:55other ladies kind of showed me how to do it. And so then I helped her with that first room,

05:00but I was really assisting. But I saw her halfway through the room, unplug the vacuum cleaner.

05:05It had a 12 foot cord. No, no, no hotel room in the world is only 12 foot wide. So

05:10she unplugged the

05:11vacuum, had to plug it back in, go back over a little bit of what she had just done and

05:15kept going. And of course my old timey Six Sigma brain was like, okay, this doesn't make any sense

05:20to me. Why are you doing that? And so then I did it myself several times and ended up asking

05:25the

05:25ladies, I'm like, Hey, why do your vacuum cleaners have such short cords? That seemed to not make any

05:33sense to me, but they looked at me and they just kind of put their hands up and they said,

05:37well,

05:37these are the vacuum cleaners that management got for us. And I said, well, this is a little

05:42crazy. I said, you would save yourself a lot of time and it would be much easier if you had

05:48another

05:4812 feet on that cord and you could not have to unplug it and turn the vacuum cleaner off and

05:53on.

05:53And it seems silly, but Mason, I would have never known that had I not done the things, not gone

05:59to

05:59dig the ditch. And so I, that day we went down to the hardware store. We bought a bunch of

06:05extension

06:05cords, products safe, extension cords, nobody worry. And then I let Carolina know, Hey, next time you're

06:11procuring vacuum cleaners for housekeeping, get the ones with the 24 foot cords. It's that simple.

06:17You wouldn't know that unless you went and did the things. And so that's just something that I do.

06:22We all try to do at Herschend. It's actually mandatory for all of our executives to go work

06:26the front lines. I love it. And that stuff you don't learn by looking at a spreadsheet or sitting in

06:32an

06:32car. No, you got to do that stuff too, but no, you got to get out and you got to

06:36make time on

06:36your calendar to get out. Not mutually exclusive events, but it's a both and. Right. Yes, sir.

06:42And you know, what's fun is I feel like because all of us get out there and do it, we

06:47did it at

06:47Home Depot too. Actually you had to work in a store. And so when then you sit and look at

06:52the

06:52spreadsheets, all the voices that are required to be heard at the corporate table. So your finance

06:58voices, your operator voices, your host or employee voices, right? All of us can bring that to the table

07:04as executives, but with a little bit more credibility, I want to say, if you're working

07:09for the right company with the right culture, you bring a different credibility when you've

07:12actually gone out and made the guest experience, done the things that are your guest experience,

07:18are your customer experience facing activities. I think you bring a different credibility to the

07:22table if that's, if that's something you've done. It's funny because obviously you and I both had

07:26military backgrounds and I remember being in Panama in 91 and 95 and I was part of a combat

07:32engineer unit and we were building roads and bridges and the jungle. And I can remember having

07:37units attached to us with soldiers who didn't know me or any of the troops in my unit when we

07:44first got

07:44there. And I can remember going up to some equipment operators and then saying, Hey, how long do you

07:49estimate that it'll take to do X? And they would give me some grossly exaggerated time frame to take

07:56their time. And I would ask them as a civilian, do you have any experience with this? And they'd be

08:01like, well, yeah, I, I'm a professional equipment operator. I do this in the civilian world too.

08:06Right. Great. I said, I am not, but I do know how to operate that vehicle. And I can do

08:13that in about,

08:14oh, 25% of the time you just quoted me. Yeah. And the guys would look at me and then

08:19they would kind

08:20of see if I was bluffing or not. And then they'd look at my troops like, is, is the Lieutenant

08:25for

08:25real? Can you do it? And they'd be like, you can, cause I did the same principle you driving is

08:33when I

08:34had time to learn how to use that equipment, I didn't just sit in an air conditioning office. I went

08:38out, I invested my time to learn how to operate a front end loader or a C or a greater

08:43as a side note, my pistol belt is buried somewhere in front of the Missouri army national guard

08:50headquarters in a field outside there, Missouri to this day, because while I was learning to drive

08:56a bulldozer, uh, it fell off and got buried. And to this day, I'm sure. Why is the laughs about

09:03the

09:04Lieutenant? You have good days and bad days, good days and bad days. Oh, I completely relate and

09:10appreciate. And I hope that those business owners and executives listening, take to heart the message

09:16of what you're describing. It's like, get out of your office, go understand what's on the front line.

09:21That's right. And there's a lot of social science around aging and how we learn and that, that

09:27tangential learning piece and that, you know, traveling just to travel is not fun. There are

09:33plenty of responsibilities we all have, you know, here in the office, in the meetings and all the

09:38things, but from a tangential learning, know the business and see how your customer and see how

09:43your employees are evolving. Don't believe, you know, what you learned two or three years ago.

09:49You got to be out there fairly regularly. So it's, it's something I, I very much believe in.

09:54And decisions are only a sound effect on which they're based. And if you're just relying on

09:59secondhand knowledge from people who have a vested interest in making sure the boss doesn't hear bad

10:03news or then you, you by default are incapable of making the best decisions because the bad news is

10:12either covered or watered down in a lot of cases. And I'm not taking on anybody in particular. That's

10:16just human nature. Yeah. And unless you're willing to go and dig a ditch and go to the front line

10:24and

10:24find out for yourself, you might never know. That's right. And experience, firsthand experience

10:29does make you be able to be more truthful in your feedback, in your decision-making because you're,

10:37it was a holistic response experience intake. And so you will be more, you'll be stronger and you'll

10:44have a more informed decision at the table when it's your job to be that voice. You might be the

10:50voice of operations. If you're an operator at Home Depot and you're the division president or the

10:56regional vice president, as an operator, you've got to be the voice of operations. As the HR person,

11:01I'm the voice of the employees. And so I just think you've got to have some passion and willingness

11:06to be truthful. And I think you're absolutely right. When you're out there doing the things,

11:10your strength of your voice and your strength of your opinions and your opinions being

11:15well-informed makes you a better executive by far.

11:19And as a word of caution to those who are listening, one of the questions I did ask you

11:23was, did you work a whole shift? And your answer was, yes, I did. And because I think it can

11:30-

11:30Don't show up and work two hours and leave. Because then you're the pain in the neck, right?

11:34Then you're typical. Then you're typical management and that stinks. Don't do that. Don't do that.

11:39My army unit was the first unit in the state of Missouri activated for emergency flood duty in 1993

11:45when the great flood hit. They sent us to St. Genevieve, Missouri. And I can remember more than a few

11:49politicians that came along with cameras to roll up their food and take a few pictures. And it's not

11:57my nature to call those guys out. But I won't. But you don't think for a second that all of

12:02those

12:03voters there saw them roll up in their air-conditioned vehicles, roll up their sleeve,

12:08grab a shovel, load two shovelfuls worth of sandbags just long enough for the pictures to get

12:14taken. And then off they went. And you don't think for a second that everyone there knew that

12:18they were being used as props and taken advantage of. It was not a legitimate, I'm here to give.

12:25And I'm not saying they didn't go out and lobby for resources and things like that.

12:28For sure. It wasn't their way to help. Yeah.

12:31Right. But-

12:32It wasn't as authentic as you'd want it to be, maybe.

12:35Correct. It left a bad taste in the mouth of the people who are trying to save their city.

12:39If you're trying to develop trust, don't even pretend to do what you're not really going to do. Do the

12:44things that you need to do. Do the things you do well. But if you're really not going to chip

12:49in

12:49a rope their sleeves, that's okay. But don't pretend to do it. Yeah.

12:53So how does an HR leader know whether the problem is that the CEO will not let them operate

12:58strategically or that they have not yet demonstrated the business judgment required to

13:02be treated as a strategic partner?

13:04Yeah. So one, I'm going to back up and say, I think really critical in HR right now is to

13:11define what we mean by strategic partner. Because everybody's moving from the transactional model

13:15into the strategic partnership model, into the business partnership model. And I think we've

13:20got to be really careful because strategic partner, strategic business partner can get big

13:24and it can get undefined. And I know we're all trying to avoid tactical. We're avoiding being

13:32the ticket takers that maybe our function started out being, right? Because it was necessary. It's

13:37more administrative. But for me, the strategic partner piece means that you have to be two

13:43things. The first thing you have to be as a frontline advocate. So any organization, the

13:48top of the pyramid, it's upside down. The top of your pyramid is your frontline host, your

13:52frontline employee, the people who are touching your customer and making the experiences or the

13:57things happen. And if you are at the strategic table where it is, right, a tug of war over

14:04dollars, you only have a certain amount of money to spend at any company. That's true. You either

14:10going to, you know, there's, there's always that, that tension of does the dollars go to the

14:14operations? Does the dollar go to the shareholders? The dollar, where the dollars go? If the dollars

14:18need to come back to the hosts and that's going to drive your business, you've got to be their

14:23voice and their advocate at the table. And so you've got to know, I don't mean go out there

14:27and work as a frontline employee all the time. It's good to do that. But then come back and figure

14:32out what are the most important topics? What are the most important things that you need to advocate

14:37for so that your business will be most successful? You are not going to win on all battles. You're not

14:44going to get everything you want, but you got to pick and choose just like marketing has to pick and

14:48choose, just like your, you know, creative or, or your development side has to pick and choose just

14:54like all the other functions in your business. So first and foremost, you are that host advocate

14:59at the strategic table to fight for the processes and the dollars you need to be successful.

15:05The second thing I would say is you've got to be a great coach. I need every leader at my

15:09company

15:09being their best selves every day. I don't need my CEO having more than a few bad days here and

15:14there.

15:15That's hard. The pressure that are on, that's on executives today is just very, very high.

15:20They should feel a ton of responsibility, right? To all the employees of the company,

15:26to all the shareholders of the company and to the public to, to give to them whatever the services

15:32and products are of the company you're serving. So for me, strategic business partner means you've

15:36got to be a great coach and you got to say, you know what? You did great in that meeting.

15:40Here's a

15:40couple of things I think we missed. You got to be able to say, you know what? That meeting

15:43didn't bring your best self here and you missed or you lost a couple of these folks. Maybe you

15:49circle back and have another conversation with this person or that person. To be the coach,

15:56I think a sports analogy is honestly, Mason, like I'm a big football fan, but in the sports

16:00analogy is to be the coach on the field. If you're in the middle of the game, you don't see

16:04the coach

16:04go into the locker room and chill out and have a cup of coffee, right? They don't do that in

16:08the

16:08middle of the game. When you're in your moment, when you're being a strategic business partner

16:13as an HR professional, you've got to know when to bring your best coach to the table and you got

16:20to stay at that table till you're done. And so for me, when a CEO isn't allowing me or someone

16:27on my

16:27team to be the advocate for the priorities that we've set as our strategy within HR, when that CEO or

16:34that

16:34business partner, that operator, whoever it is, is not allowing my folks to, or me, myself, to be that

16:41coach in that moment and bring up different points of view, we're not all going to agree. I'm not going

16:47to win all the time, but I've got to be able to be a voice at the table. So if

16:51I'm uninvited or not

16:52invited at all, I don't play well that way. If I'm, if I'm expected to not voice the, the host

16:59concerns in the conversation, uh, or if I'm actually just the host concerns are never even

17:06considered in the conversation, I got to bring them up. And so for me, it's, it's almost like

17:11there's a, your question being about how do I know which is the problem? First things first for every

17:16HR out there, we're all kind of redefining or defining how, what, who we are as a strategic

17:22business partner. And so for me, I keep it really simple. It's those two things. And then I don't blame

17:28my operators out of the gate for not allowing me to be that person. If they've always had

17:34a transactional HR, I got to give them time to adjust. I got to define for them who I am

17:39and

17:39what I'll do for them. I got to tell them how that tactical stuff's going to get done. We got

17:43ERPs and

17:44we got AI and we got stuff that's going to do all that transactional stuff for us today. We can

17:48let

17:49that go. And that's a beautiful thing, but then I've got to give them time to, to learn who I

17:53am at

17:53the table. And I've got to prove I got that seat. I've got to prove I'm going to be valuable.

17:57I've got to

17:57prove that there's a business ROI to what I bring to the table. And then once I get through that

18:02transitional period, which I got through Home Depot, I was there as we switched and we were in the

18:08business partner model for gosh, the entire time I was in HR there. And then here at Hershen, we have

18:13switched over and we've given enough time. And now everybody regards HR as a true business partner

18:20and it's, and it's refreshing. It's lovely. I was having a, I really like what you're saying about

18:24the coaching part because I was talking, I had a conversation with Marlene Chisholm. She's the

18:28author of the book from conflict to courage. And she's a friend of mine. We talk a pretty regular

18:32basis. And literally just a few days ago, we were having a very similar conversation. She goes a lot

18:38of, we were talking about how many managers or supervisors are thrown into a management or

18:43supervisory role because they were an outstanding individual contributor. They get promoted to management

18:48and they're not trained on leadership or management. And what happens is it was, she was

18:53describing, she's like, I see a whole bunch of managers run into HR to solve their problems for

18:58them because they don't know how to, and they don't know how to prevent them because no one's ever taught

19:02them and no one's ever coached them. And now HR becomes the lifesaver to go in and fix all of

19:08this

19:08stuff. And what I like about what you're talking about is no, I'm not going to do your job for

19:14you.

19:14I'm going to teach you how to do it yourself and I'm going to coach you so that you can

19:18solve

19:18these problems in the future before they occur and get the experience of how to handle it right

19:22now. And that, those actions, not words, I believe are one of the key differentiators between someone

19:29who has a parent like yours and someone who doesn't. That's right. And I, and I think it's

19:33super interesting. It's a choice we have to make as HRs, but you have to really coach yourself after

19:39every occurrence where you coach someone else. It's a never ending cycle, but thinking back to,

19:45you know, bringing it back to a football field, if you will. So I'm a Pittsburgh Steelers fan,

19:50so I won't apologize for that. But say back in the day when every time Ben threw the,

19:54threw the wrong pass, right? Like the wrong pattern was run by the receiver or, you know,

20:00both receivers, one was obviously getting beat by the DB, the defensive back, and one wasn't,

20:06but he kept throwing to the one that was getting beat. Tomlin didn't say,

20:11Ben, that's all right. You're good. Don't worry about it. Never. A coach would never be like,

20:16Saban would never be like, Kirby would never say, oh, that's okay. It's fine. That's all right.

20:21That interception. Oh, that, that incomplete pass. Well, we're fine. It's okay. No, no, no.

20:26They would say, hey, Ben, what did you see? Did, how did you miss this? Did you not go all

20:32the way

20:32through, right? All your looks? Can you, can you not tell, right? You're seven foot 12 or whatever

20:38he is. He's really tall. Like you can't see that that defensive back is all over that receiver,

20:44but this receiver is open. Like, can you not see that? Like I want you to, so it's, it's not

20:48that

20:48you can say nothing. It's not that you have to go in and rip them and say, okay, pack your

20:52stuff,

20:53get out of here. You're fired. It's not that people make mistakes. People don't know. You see all the

20:59time supervisors who get promoted because they were great employees. They don't have any

21:04supervisory experience. And then my favorite is when they become good leaders of your frontline.

21:09And then we promote them to be leaders of leaders. And we think their leadership skills

21:14are going to be, oh, they've already got leadership skills, friends. When you start leading leaders,

21:19those are totally different leadership skills. That's a different coach, right? That's a whole

21:23another ball game. And so as you continue to, to coach different levels in the organization,

21:29as you grow your career, or as you're an operator and you're leading different teams,

21:35all that is continuously fluidly changing. It's a beautiful thing, but you've really got to be

21:40conscientious about keeping your leadership. I mean, I'm sorry, keeping your coaching skills

21:44current and relevant to the group you coach on a daily basis.

21:49And I want to draw a distinction when you're talking about coaching, what those watching,

21:53listening, I hope they're picking up on is she didn't describe a situation where the coach just

21:59says, Hey, do this or Hey, do that. They're not giving them the answers. Exactly. What did you see?

22:05What were you thinking? How do you process that? I'm not going to throw the ball. Yeah, no, no,

22:09no. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, I'm not the QB. I'm the coach. And I say that

22:13you can ask

22:14anybody who works with me. I'm like, okay, leaders got to lead. I'm not going to do your job for

22:17you,

22:17but I am so happy to come and talk you through what's going right and what's going wrong. And

22:22what's probably the most important next thing you can do to help it productivity improve.

22:26So I think there's a lot of folks that will, will make the transition to just, well, just do this

22:32or just do that. And what they're teaching the employees is to become dependent upon leadership

22:38as opposed to independent and on their own. And early in my HR career, when I first switched

22:44from being an operator, I was a store manager. I was an operator in the Marine Corps and I was

22:47a store manager at Home Depot. I was a district manager. I ran the West side of Boston. I ran

22:53most of the state of Maryland outside of Baltimore for years. And so I was an operator running P&Ls

22:58and I switched into HR because my mentor said, Debbie, I got an idea. I was like, that's a terrible

23:03idea. And he's like, no, I really think you'd love it. And of course he was right. But when I

23:07first

23:07switched into HR, I may, I would make the mistake of either doing the things, right? So I'd see what

23:14I think I, that should be done as an operator. I was judging my operator based on my operator brain,

23:19not on my HR brain. And I would step in and do too much and often the wrong things because

23:24I got to

23:25let people lead their own way. But the second thing I would do is if I, I would hold myself

23:29back from

23:30doing the things as, but as an HR person, we tend to be empathetic. And as an empath, then I

23:35would feel

23:35responsible for the success, but more often the failure of leaders around me. And I'd be like,

23:41oh my God, they're failing. And so I would take that stress on myself. And I'm like, wait, you're

23:44not a great coach. If you absorb all the failures instead of staying objective and continuously focused

23:52on ROI and operational improvement and, you know, the outcome for your, for your customer, there's,

23:57you know, almost an MPS blinking light in my head that said net promoter score. How is my customer?

24:02What's my guest experience at Hirschen? We call our customers, our guests. What's the guest

24:08experience here? And is the outcome good for them? And if the answer is yes, then however the leader's

24:13doing the things, they're winning. And so, you know, don't do it the way I would do it. And don't

24:19take on the stress if it's not done well. Those are hard, hard skills to develop as an HR person.

24:23So what are the biggest mistakes aspiring chief human resource officers make when they're trying

24:28to prove they belong in strategic conversations with CEO and our senior executives?

24:33Yeah. First and foremost, I would say not knowing the business well enough. And so I do think there

24:40is power and understanding both operationally and financially how the business works. You don't have

24:45to be a CFO, right? You don't have to be a COO. You need to be the CPO. You need

24:48to be the CHRO.

24:49So, but you need to understand the goals of the business and how people create success for those

24:59goals. So you got to be able to use the language of the goals of the organization, the goals of

25:05the

25:05shareholders, you know, your goals of your board of directors, the goals of your CEO and, and your

25:11language. I always say there's the four ways we make decisions and there's lots of models that

25:16describe them, but you either make them for the people, you make them for the future, you make

25:20them for the process or you make them for the money. And so you got to be able to take

25:23all that

25:24and not be overly people languaged. Is that a fair way to say that? You got to be able to

25:29bring the

25:31people perspective to the table by knowing the business and the operations. So number one, big mistake,

25:36they don't take enough time to get out of the function of HR, to put really solid ROI and metrics

25:44and business language and, and returns on investment for the business to, to the work that we do. And I

25:51think once you can start to really do that consistently, it's great. The second thing is

25:55push, pull, jump, skip, get yourself up to that table and be at the table. And some meetings, a lot

26:04of meetings, if you don't, you know, have to be a loud voice, then don't waste people's time. But I'm

26:09not

26:09saying speak just to be heard. I'm not saying attend meetings that just waste your time, but my

26:14goodness, make yourself a present influencer in the decisions the company's making, because only then

26:22can you be a real advocate. I think some people get scared of how loud, how consistent, how present

26:30to be as an HR professional. What's interesting, I'm very, very blessed at Hershend. It's expected.

26:36You're supposed to be here. At Depot, we, you know, we ebbed and flowed. There was times where

26:41HR very much had a seat at the table. There was time where it was kind of, when convenient. I

26:46think

26:46for HR professionals who are really aspiring to be, to do great things for employees of companies in

26:54this great country, we got, we got, we got to elbow our way in and, and we got to recognize

27:01who we need

27:01to be at that table. So I don't think you can emphasize enough how important it is to understand

27:09the other, the way the business works. I, let me give you, let me give you an example. It's popping

27:14into my mind because I have conversations with people a lot of times that my specialty is employee

27:19selection, engagement, retention. Like I, I can help companies identify the, the ones that are likely

27:25be high reward and the ones that are high risk. But one of the biggest challenges I hear people

27:31come to me and say, well, that sounds great, Mason, but we don't, we can't get enough applicants.

27:34We can't find people. We don't have applicant pools. We have applicant puddles in their money.

27:39And I, and I get it. But to what you're saying about going above and beyond, instead of just,

27:44well, I can only help you pick out of the ones you got. We're going to do what we can

27:47with the best

27:48we got. No, no, no. I believe in what I have seen and what I'm witnessing is strategic level HR

27:54folks who have done what you're talking about and understand the business. They really, in a

27:59situation like that, view themselves as the second sales force. And what I mean by that is they're

28:04actually using sales and marketing strategies. It's sales and marketing tactics to compete for the

28:10talent, just like their sales department competes for clients or they compete for customers.

28:16And it's not a complicated thing. I mean, I was at a session, I was speaking in Rochester,

28:24Minnesota about two or three weeks ago at a group of tire and auto center owners. We're talking

28:30millionaire business owners who were all very successful and smart people. And they were

28:34struggling with this. And when we laid it out to them, Hey, identify what, who's your ideal target

28:40market? Just like a sales force would. Hey, are you looking at interns? Are you looking at

28:46retirees? Are you looking at recent graduates? All of those categories of targets, what problems

28:51they have. And it wasn't that complicated to figure out what problems an intern might have

28:55would be like, Oh, I have no experience. I might not have a professional wardrobe. I have difficulty

29:00finding a place to work because I have a class schedule, et cetera. Blah, blah, blah. Those are

29:04the problems they have. That's right.

29:06What's good to be able to offer? Well, guess what? We're two blocks from campus. So you don't need a

29:10car.

29:10We provide you with uniforms. So you don't need to have a budget for that. We'll provide you

29:14with experience. We'll provide you with contacts. Okay. Those are the solutions. And then the

29:18benefits column is, well, what this means to you is, Hey, you can develop contacts and find out what

29:24you get experienced and find out what you do best and like to do most before you invest years in

29:28a

29:29career that is not rewarding to you. And then what surprise, surprise, you market to those people

29:35in those niches with those messages. And guess what? Your message to retirees is going to be very

29:40different because they have a different problem. That's taking the time to understand the business.

29:45And guess what? You take the time to get to know your DPS sales or marketing.

29:50They might collaborate with you to say, Hey, how can you help me?

29:54They will collaborate with you. That's right. Ops will, marketing will, commercial will,

29:58development will, strategic business planning will. You're absolutely right. And you're reminding

30:04me that I am also just a monstrous advocate. You're going to laugh at this of defining the

30:11problem. And Mason, I can't make this up. Once a month, I make someone on my team, we have a

30:17meeting

30:17and it's our eight, my direct reports and my HR team. And it's a SMEAC meeting. I promise you,

30:24I've taught them all SMEAC. So for folks listening, for military people, that rings bells to us.

30:30If you're not familiar with the term SMEAC is Situation, Mission, Execution, Admin,

30:35and Logistics and Communication. And it's, and it's how we do a five paragraph or it's how we

30:40plan a battle, you know, or, or a plan of attack for, you know, winning a battle and whatever we're

30:47going to do in the Marine Corps or in the army or, you know, whatever service. And so when I

30:51first came

30:52to this role and I told my team, look, I want to look at things. I want you to think

30:57big. I want you

30:58to think in the four ways of thinking of things. I want you to think for the future. And so

31:02I'm

31:03going to give you time to really be strategic, get out of the weeds. I'm going to give you a

31:07topic and

31:07I want you to go big with it. And I want you to do a SMEAC. But, but the reason

31:11I make them do that

31:12is like you described, go in and define the problem, go in and really look at the situation.

31:17What's everything I know. So right now we're next week, I'm doing one for a war rewards and

31:23recognition. That's hard to say rewards and recognition of our associates, because I don't love

31:27what we're doing from the center at Hershen. That's a lot of our properties are doing great,

31:31but we're not really providing great tools and, and, and guidance from the center for rewards and

31:37recognition. You know, should everybody have employee of the month parking? Should everybody have,

31:41you know, birthdays and anniversaries shouted out? Oh, what does that look like? So I signed

31:45in to a member of my team and said, look, how do we know everything we've ever done in this

31:49space?

31:50Go figure out the situation. What do we currently do? Who does it well? Who doesn't do it at all?

31:54What does our employee survey say? What's other companies doing? Go benchmark it. Like to your

31:59point, like go figure out all the things. And then using all that, look hard at it and say,

32:05what's the problem we're trying to solve? That's the mission. That's the SMEAC. And tell me the

32:10mission. Tell me the problem we're trying to solve. Maybe you're going to say, Debbie, there's no problem

32:14to solve. Maybe you're going to say no time and energy needed. Maybe you're going to say, oh, we should

32:18do

32:18a playbook because really what's happening is our brand new leaders aren't leaning into recognition. And so

32:24they're losing their workforce and have to gain them back. Maybe. So then execution, of course,

32:30is the plan. Admin and logistics, whose help do we need? I got to go to Carl, my COO, and

32:34say,

32:35hey, Carl, I'm going to be doing some of this. It might be disruptive at some of the properties when

32:38I'm hanging out, you know, some digital bulletin boards to shout out some hosts. And are you cool

32:42with that? And I go and I talk to marketing and I say, hey, can I get your help? What's

32:46the best

32:47format marketing wise to do internal marketing for this recognition? And then communication,

32:51communicate, communicate, communicate. So I, believe it or not, I make my team once a month

32:56do an old school SMEAC on a topic because to your point, you know, your point around recruiting and

33:02making successful people. And it's not that you have not enough people. It's that you're not finding

33:07that you're not matching the candidate skill, the opening. They're out there. And it's not a round

33:13peg in a square hole. It's they're just they haven't met yet. They haven't meshed it all together. So

33:19same thing, but it's really, really about defining the problem and then coming up with the plan of

33:25execution that makes the most sense. And what I find fascinating about your answer here

33:29is you've described throughout our whole conversation, the importance of demonstrating

33:33your financial acumen, your business acumen, your other skills, your knowledge of things,

33:38and everything you talked about is interacting by the nature of the tasks,

33:43you to interact with sales, with marketing, with operations, with finance, so that they get to know

33:49you and your actions speak louder than their words. And they don't have to guess, oh, does Debbie know

33:54what she's doing? They see. Sometimes they still do.

34:02So along those same lines, can you maybe remember a moment when you contributed to a business decision

34:07outside the traditional boundaries of HR and senior leadership began looking at you differently?

34:11If so, you know, what'd you do and what can other executives learn from it?

34:15Yeah, I think there's been several along the way at Home Depot. We had, I think the best examples for

34:22me always come in terms of payroll and in labor and in labor management, because for any organizations,

34:30right, that's your largest expense. So when you think about the impacts you can make with payroll

34:35and staffing and looking at it and you go, hmm, how should this work? I think one of the things

34:40at Home Depot, we were looking at, should we level, should we add a level in the organization

34:46in our stores? 2,700 stores in the U.S., Mexico and Canada, you know, more like 2,200 here

34:53in the,

34:53in the years that I worked there. And, you know, so you got a lot of people, but you went

34:57straight

34:58from frontline worker supervisor right up to assistant manager. And, and it felt like there was a gap in

35:04the middle. And the operators were saying, look, my guests, my, my customers are telling me that our

35:09scores are, are slowly declining. And what we think we need is a lot more staffing. We need more people,

35:16right? Nobody, there's never enough orange aprons and I get it. I still, you know, now that I'm purely

35:21outside the company, we all say the same thing. I've never seen enough orange aprons. So, but they, by the

35:26way, have spoiled us. You don't say that as much in a Walmart or in other retailers because you're not

35:31spoiled by the knowledge that, that Home Depot gives you. So, huge fan. So, everybody kept saying,

35:38okay, how are we going, where are we going to find the funding? Where are we going to make cuts

35:42so that

35:42we add aprons? Long story short, the solve as an HR person was, again, go walk the store, go walk

35:51different stores in urban stores, rural stores, go walk at night, go walk in the morning, go walk

35:56different categories, when the pros are in the stores, go see what they see. Because of course,

35:59their average ticket is so much higher than your, your $50 average ticket from you and I, who are

36:03DIYers. If you're a contractor, you go in average tickets, $500, right? There are 10x what you and I

36:08are. So, do all the things, go see the things, go talk to a few operators, go look at your

36:14labor

36:14modeling, go look in your system, look at the data. I can't say that enough. I probably haven't said it

36:19enough. Data, data, data, right? That's how our, our sales folks, our marketing folks, our operators,

36:25you know, all the people, you know, especially your, your shareholders, that's all they think.

36:29So, go look at the data. And we did. And what we saw was, you have enough aprons, but where

36:34are they?

36:34And, and so they may be new. And what they are most comfortable doing is downstocking the widgets

36:42because I don't have to talk to a customer. I can just go deep into this aisle and downstock the

36:48widgets. And I'm doing something that I'm supposed to be doing and I won't get myself in trouble,

36:52but this is something I think I can do and nobody's telling me to do otherwise. So, I'm

36:56going to go downstock the widgets. Maybe they're cashiers and, and there are three out in garden

37:01and one on the line, but it's raining and we should really have more on the line. Point,

37:05how we solved the problem was we proposed basically an air traffic controller. Should we only add one

37:13person? And by level, they'd be somewhere between the supervisor and the ASM. So, compensation-wise,

37:20it gives you a growth role or two or three in every store. You could say, okay, supervisors,

37:25the best of my soups, I'm going to promote you to this air traffic controller position.

37:29And your job is to, you know, and so they, they're a higher comp. So, it's a financial growth,

37:35but it's also different kind of leadership. You got to lead it by influence. Your job is a racetrack

37:40manager. You continuously do laps around that store. You, you go back and check on freight,

37:46you check on your front end and all your critical parts of your store, of course, but you're

37:49constantly walking in circles and you're marrying up guests with hosts, right? Guests with, with the

37:56associate and helping the two come together to solve whatever problem the customer has. And it may

38:02not be, it was not nefarious. It was not people hiding out. It just, the stores are big, 110,000

38:08square

38:09feet and lots of aisles and lots of boxes and lots of things to pack down and, you know, over

38:1340,000

38:14SKUs or whatever the number is now. And the HR solution was, we can, no, don't go hire 15 more

38:22associates and for three shifts a day at 2,200 stores can, I mean, do the math, holy smokes,

38:29that's going to skyrocket your payroll and the return that you've got to get from a sales aspect

38:35to pay for that. No, no, no, that, you know, on a margin of call it 25%. Nope. Nope. So

38:40what we did is

38:41two people per store during your busiest times to basically marry up the orange apron and the,

38:47and the customer that's like, oh my goodness, I need an apron to help me.

38:51I love that. I love that. Because as a consumer, I don't go to the hardware store because I need

38:57a

38:57drill. I go to the hardware store, I need a hole.

38:59You have a problem. Right, right.

39:01The problem's broken. And I, and if I want, if I just needed a part, I could go to the

39:06internet and

39:06get it. That's right. So if I'm going to take my time to drive to the store, I talk to

39:12someone

39:12there who's knowledgeable and skilled about what tools and how do you need to do it? What is the

39:17best course of action and what tools do I need to accomplish the goal of solving my problem?

39:22And we did career development, succession planning, all in the same solution, right?

39:27I love it. That's an excellent example.

39:31I love, love, love those kinds of solutions. They're very fun.

39:34So there's sometimes a temptation for HR leaders to lead with policies, constraints,

39:39or reasons something can't be done. How can an HR executive protect the company from legitimate

39:45risk while still becoming known as someone who helps the business find a way forward?

39:49Yeah. So I always say AI is my intern. I'll never write another SOP as long as I live. And

39:56let me tell

39:56you, I'm throwing a party because of that. I love it. I will use, I love my attorney friends and

40:02my

40:02legal department because they help me out, right? Employment law is, is constantly changing. Change

40:08is accelerating. Change is constant and definitely in the space of employment and employment law. So

40:15I get it. We got to stay very connected at the hip with our legal teams. We got to stay

40:19very connected

40:20at the hip with our ERMs and, and the systems, HRS systems that we have today versus where we've been

40:26over the past 20 years. Absolutely incredible. Let UKG Workday, whatever system you use, let,

40:32let it do its thing and maximize its capability. And so I would say there's always, always use your

40:39advisors to make sure you're minimizing risk in that way. AI, I got to tell you, I, every single day

40:48I'm

40:49using it and I love it and I'm asking questions and it's helping me guide, um, conversations that

40:55I'm having. But beyond that, I think it goes back to what we already talked about at the table. When

41:01the problem comes up, become great at asking questions, become like practice asking questions

41:10for clarity because what you're trying to clarify is the problem you're trying to solve. Tell me the

41:16problem I'm trying to solve and then let's throw all kinds of possible solutions at it. I'll use my

41:21partners to do the, the back check and the risk work, but be that person instead of the constant, I

41:28don't think we can do that, police. Why don't we say, okay, very, very clearly let me know the problem

41:34I'm solving. Step one. Step two, okay, let's get creative. What's just super whiz bang silliness? And, and so

41:41be known for both clarity and creativity, but keep some partners very, very close to you and use the AI

41:47as your intern. I don't know about that. Does that answer your question? It does. So with your

41:53background, I'm going to be a little, go a little bit on the personal side. With your background, you

41:56had the experience and credibility to be very selective about your next chapter. What was it about

42:01Hershen, its leadership culture? And what, what was it about that opportunity that made you say,

42:06hey, this is where I want to be? If you can believe this, our culture is called heart

42:10spitality here at Hershen. It's hospitality with a lot of heart. And I am no spring chicken, Mason.

42:17I didn't start from scratch. So when I got to Home Depot, I had already served 11 years on active

42:23duty.

42:23So I, I, you know, I was still trying to do my reserve work and working in the stores and

42:28so forth.

42:28And so I didn't start right out of college is my point. And I knew my career, I know my

42:34end date.

42:34And so 2033, by the way, it's my end date. And I'm going to give the rest of my years

42:39to,

42:40to personal stuff. So timeline wise, I went to my mentor at Home Depot and he was the CHRO of

42:49Home

42:49Depot at the time, a guy named Tim. And I said, Tim, I, I think I'm going to go to

42:53sit in a CPO seat.

42:55I said, I got this incredible offer, cold call from a company that has an incredible culture.

43:03And you and I both know we as HR people, we don't answer our phone. If you don't know the

43:07number

43:08that's calling you. And even if you know the number, you usually don't answer. So for some

43:12god, godly reason, I'll call it divine. I answered my number, this, the phone that when the cold call

43:18came and, and I had a couple of conversations and it was the heart's brutality that hooked me.

43:23We ask our leaders to lead with love and we mean quite literally agape love, love in action at this

43:30company is very real. And we have nine behaviors. We ask every leader to ground themselves in and we

43:36hold you accountable. Your review as any leader, any salary leader in this company, you get graded

43:42on if you are patient and how to improve your patience, if you're kind, how to improve your

43:47kindness, if you're trusted, if you're respectful, if you're, if you forgive, if you're dedicated, if

43:53you're truthful, it's the hardest one. But they set this all out for me. I thought this has to be

43:57kind of like make-believe. And then they sent me up to Dollywood to walk one of the properties. We

44:01own Dollywood and there it was. I could see it in action. I could see the love in action and

44:06I could

44:07see the way the leaders treated their hosts. And I could see that the hosts truly love their jobs.

44:12So I went back to Tim and I said, I have this offer. And do you know that Tim's response

44:16to me

44:16was, Debbie, if you're running away from me or from Home Depot, I will fix whatever you're running away

44:22from. Wow. But if you're running towards a dream and if you're running towards a career plan,

44:28and I know you, and I know you probably have your career plan laid down. If you're running towards

44:31a dream or something that I can't fulfill for you, I will stay your mentor. And do you know,

44:36he's still my mentor to this day. Wow. And so the combination of having someone who cared enough for

44:42me and honored my career, respected my career and me personally enough to have that reaction instead

44:49of your typical corporate, get the heck out. You don't love us. So bye. That was not. And that's

44:55real. That's how it goes down. But that was Home Depot's reaction. I'm still dearly connected to that

45:01company and to many of my friends and coworkers and points of contact. And, and Tim has helped me

45:07because of course I have a different role now with the board of directors than I had at Home Depot

45:10and

45:10working with the board and working with strategy. We have, we've doubled in size since I've joined

45:15Herschen. And so a lot of the M&A work and a lot of the acquisition work that you do

45:20and

45:20integration work of two companies coming together when we bought Palace. People think I'm crazy for

45:25leaving Home Depot, but really, truly what hooked me was the culture here. And it's the most authentic,

45:33caring culture that I've ever seen, that I've known, but I will tell you, it's not easy. It's not nice.

45:40It's not a bunch of shiny, happy people running around, hugging each other. We live,

45:43we lead with love, but there's a lot of pressure with that. A lot of pressure to stay truthful and

45:48to stay. Sometimes love is tough. There's a, there's the phrase, it's a flow. Friend, let me die

45:53up. Forgiveness, trusting, respect. It's hard. Yeah. So what can other CEOs learn from Herschen

46:00about creating a company where exceptional people genuinely want to do their best work? Because

46:04that's what it sounds like. There was a, I had a guy on my podcast a few months ago, his

46:08name's Norman

46:09Wolf. And he wrote a book called The Living Organization. And what he talked about, he said,

46:13people aren't, and I'm paraphrasing the whole book, but people aren't machines. They're living

46:17organisms. And you, your job as a leader is to create an environment where people can do their

46:22best work. That's right. And I'm, I'm just curious what other companies in your opinion can learn

46:26from the way Herschen does it and hopefully apply in their particular situations. Yeah. I think culture

46:33can't be a poster on the wall. Got to be real careful with that. And, and you've got to hold

46:37your folks

46:38accountable. You've got to have as much feedback about how a leader is behaving as their financial

46:43results. And we definitely were 50, 50. So 50% of your reviews, which are quarterly are about our

46:49culture and your behaviors and you get graded on all nine. And by graded, I mean, just real good

46:55feedback, right? You can't be good at all of them all the time. I'm not always patient. I'm not always

47:02forgiving. You know, sometimes it takes me a minute. And Andrew will say, you know, Debbie, look,

47:07I got to tell you in that meeting, you know, it kind of showed you were upset. And I was

47:11like,

47:11oh, you're right. I was. And then half of my feedback is around financial performance or goal

47:16achievement. And so for us, we, we define the behaviors we want to see. So CEOs out there,

47:23define those behaviors. What do you want to see out of your leaders, but match that up super duper

47:29critical with a purpose and make that purpose consistent across the board. Don't have 16 purposes

47:34across your company. Okay. I want my logistics chain to do this. So I want major people to do

47:38that. I want my operation properties and warehouses to do this or my stores. One purpose. The purpose

47:43at Hershend is bringing families closer together by creating memories worth repeating. And we're very

47:50intentional. Bringing families. We are family entertainment. There is a reason why the Harlem

47:54Globetrotters and Kennywood and Dollywood and Silver Dollar City feel the way they feel. And we're

48:00buddies with Disney and Universal and the rest, but we purposely want you to come to our parks in years

48:07two, three, and four. And what I mean by that is families, it takes them five years to save up

48:11to

48:11take their entire family to Disney. And we know that. And Disney knows that. And so you're going to

48:16save for five years. So in year one and five, go to Disney or Universal. And in years two, three,

48:22and four, come to us. We're your middle park. And so bringing families closer together by creating

48:30memories worth repeating. And so we believe that customers trust us with their time, their dollars,

48:36but most importantly, their memories. And it's not just a line. It's not just stuff we say. And so CEOs

48:41who really want to make their culture real, they got to combine purpose and behavior together because

48:48one without the other, I mean, then it's what you do versus how you do it. It's going to fall

48:54apart.

48:54And the outcome, we always say those two things put together equals impact and joy. Impact are the

49:01things we can measure and we do measure. And by the way, Hershen's pretty darn good at, you know,

49:07making money long term. And we've been around for 75 years and we're in the long game and it's going

49:13just fine. But the, and joy. So impact what we measure, the outcome of our culture are, there's

49:20moments of joy you can't measure, but you got to capture them. And I do think with the generations

49:25in the workplace today, it's really important to capture them somehow. Videos, TikToks, testimonials,

49:31whatever that looks like. But make sure you remind your people the outcome of what you do,

49:36the outcome of putting those behaviors and that purpose together is financial success and things you

49:42can measure that go well, right? Happy customers, you know, lots of employees who get paid at least a

49:48fair market wage or better. And moments where you change in the planet. Moments where you're giving

49:54people back something greater than what you took from them. Moments where this is why we matter.

50:01And so those moments of joy, I really think if you want it to stick, the stickiness of Hershen's

50:07Culture is that joy. And, and we are very, very, very intentional about capturing them, talking about

50:14them, video them, sharing them, making sure we celebrate that. And so it's, if you don't have a

50:21holistic view of your culture and you don't make it central to everything you do, then it's just a

50:27poster. Love it. So if there was just one piece of advice you could give to anyone listening today,

50:32and I'm talking about business owners, CEOs, operations leaders, HR execs, and people who

50:37aspire to those roles, what would be the most important piece of advice you could offer and why?

50:41That's a hard one. But my answer is what I call UHR. And UHR is something I live by because

50:50people

50:51be peopling, friend. I'm in HR and I love it. So are you. We love it. But people be peopling

50:55and people

50:55can be really, really hard and messy and trying. They can wear you out. But UHR stands for

51:02unconditional high regard. And what that means is every single time I interact with you,

51:08and I might see you today, I might come back and see you tomorrow, I might see you a month

51:12from now, and you and I might disagree about something today. So when I come back and I

51:16see Mason tomorrow, I'm going to start every single time with unconditional high regard. I

51:23am going to start every time I interact with every leader, every host, every time, that

51:29person that, man, when you see them coming and you want to turn and walk the other way,

51:33you're like, oh, not Debbie again. It happens. It happens. UHR. It works in your household. It

51:39works, by the way, for road rage. It works in the C-suite. It works all around this corporate

51:45office. UHR, unconditional high regard. You will get, you will be blessed so much more if you can

51:51accept people and their greatness, right? They're perfect. You're perfect. We all bring something

51:57great to the table. And rather than just continuously building up this frustration

52:02index that pours over to people you actually like and respect, UHR. And I talk to myself very

52:09regularly and I tell myself all the time, a big sign on the wall, if you could see it, it's

52:13over there

52:13and it says UHR. And what that means is unconditional high regard. You were made perfect. I was made perfect.

52:19Every time we interact, let's at least start there and let me understand what you're passionate about

52:25so you can understand what I'm passionate about. Let me understand what you bring to the table

52:29and why we're here and spending this time together so that you can understand what I want to bring to

52:35the table. I can learn from you. I can be grateful for you. You can learn from me and be

52:39grateful for

52:40me. And that is the highest calling, I think, in human resources. And so my one bit of advice is

52:46to

52:46think about that one person that you're like, Debbie, there's no way. I can do UHR with everybody

52:51else, but not that one person. All right, friends, if you're listening, UHR for that one person and

52:57coach yourself. That's the, there's your Sabin moment. There's your Kirby's Marma. UHR for that

53:02person. Challenge yourself, every person. Start with, start and maybe even end every interaction that way.

53:09Debbie, thank you so much for your time today and your wisdom and your energy and your enthusiasm.

53:14It's been an absolute pleasure. And I just hope those people listening and watching

53:19enjoyed this as much as I did and learned as much as I did. I appreciate it. And thank you

53:24so much for joining us. Thank you, Mason. Thank you for having me. It's great.

Why Great Leaders MUST Get Their Hands Dirty | Debbie McKinley on Leadership, HR & Company Culture

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