00:00That kind of felt like the natural point for me for those conversations maybe heating up.
00:06Like, I agree that if they win, it's probably not as much of an issue.
00:11But I think if they lose and they lose their third straight and they're sitting at 5-5 at that
00:16point after being 5-2,
00:17and you like what you saw from Shador and you know you're a team that has to know what he
00:22brings
00:22because you have some quarterback questions that you really have to answer going into this offseason,
00:27then, like, I do wonder if that conversation internally during the bye week would heat up
00:31because the bye weeks are always sort of a natural reset point for NFL teams.
00:37Ashley Bastock at Cleveland.com and the Orange and Brown Talk podcast
00:41joining us in the previous segment as she does every single Wednesday.
00:45We do have Ross Tucker coming up in about 15 minutes as well.
00:48We'll talk with Ross, obviously, about the Browns quarterback decision
00:51and whether this is the beginning of the slow descent into caca football.
00:58That's Ross in about 15 minutes.
01:00We'll talk a little trade deadline as well.
01:03She's right that for a lot of teams, especially where the bye week is,
01:07that that's a natural point of self-assessment.
01:11I also think she's right from the fact of I think that there will be people in the organization,
01:16if the Browns lose this game, ready to move on from Deshaun
01:20so they can get a better look at Shador, I would really caution against it.
01:26And the devil's in the details here.
01:29Okay.
01:29But I still think 5-5 with the Raiders coming up after the bye,
01:35I know that there's a case to be made for giving Shador two full weeks
01:38to prep for the Raiders game.
01:40I also look at this and go, Deshaun Watson versus Fernando Mendoza,
01:44and that defense, to me, feels like a real win right now.
01:46Yeah, so the Raiders game I think is so pivotal in all this
01:49because the Raiders game feels like either a get-right game for Deshaun
01:51or if you want to position it from the Shador side of things,
01:54it'd be a, all right, you're going to launch off in a positive direction.
01:57Because the one thing I do know out of this is that if you go to Shador,
02:00you then can't go back to Deshaun.
02:02The moment you go to Shador, that's got to be either him the rest of the way
02:05or then it's Dylan Gabriel or Taylor Green or somebody else.
02:08Once you go to Shador, Deshaun's, that's it for the rest of the season.
02:11And so you've got to really make sure that launching point is the right one
02:15and the Raiders would be a prime opportunity for that.
02:19But ultimately, Nick, where I stand on it is I feel like what I believe is different
02:23than what the Browns will do.
02:24You know, like what I believe is at 5-5 going into the bye week
02:28and seeing what we've seen, that would be enough for me to be like,
02:31all right, go to Shador and let's see what you can do there.
02:33I don't think the Browns look at it that way, guys.
02:35Oh, see, that's interesting.
02:36I think the Browns is carrying a lot there.
02:38I think maybe Todd Munkin sees more where I'm at with this.
02:42I think the front office is probably closer to where you are.
02:45I don't think they look at if the bottom falls out of it,
02:49if that's the concern about going with Shador, if the bottom falls out of it,
02:52I don't think they're that concerned about that.
02:54Whereas I think Todd Munkin would be and should be very concerned
02:58if the bottom falls out with Shador.
03:00I mean, it's tough because, again, I'm the person telling everyone,
03:03it's an analytical front office.
03:04They care about these rankings.
03:05They care about where the quarterback production actually lies.
03:08I just got – I've gotten nothing from them to suggest
03:11that they're unequivocally in love with Shador Sanders.
03:14I think the Browns – I actually have the end date in mind for Shador, by the way.
03:19I do.
03:19Sorry, the start date?
03:20The start date in mind.
03:21Okay, what do you got?
03:22And this is completely dependent on what is the Browns record when this happens.
03:27I think Deshaun should be the starter through the Atlanta game.
03:30That's four more games, five more weeks.
03:31And the idea is you've got Houston.
03:34That's probably the toughest – this and Cincinnati are tough draws.
03:38If you split those two games, Vegas and Atlanta are incredibly winnable games.
03:43Incredibly winnable.
03:44Like the path to the playoffs here, even if you just go 2-2,
03:47and you're – that would make you 7-6.
03:50I lucked out on that one.
03:52You can be 7-6 in five weeks.
03:54And going into the, what, second-to-last week of December,
03:59that's an insane win in terms of trying to develop guys,
04:03even if I don't think the offense is going to look that much prettier.
04:06Yeah.
04:06I know it's a good spot.
04:08I just – I don't know if they're going to – here's the big question.
04:11Would they put Shador in to try to save the season because they think the playoffs are there,
04:17or are they going to wait until they think the playoffs are completely out of reach,
04:20and then we're just in fact-finding mode, and that's all we're looking at.
04:23And I think the difference in that answer is where a lot of people are ending up
04:26with different answers to the biggest question to begin with.
04:29I do think that there's a nuance to that answer in –
04:32it depends on if the offense looks functional with Deshaun.
04:38I think in Tennessee it looked functional, right?
04:41Actually, that's as good as it's looked in Tennessee.
04:44But, like, if it looks closer to that over the next couple weeks,
04:47and you're winning, Shador might not see the field this year.
04:50If it looks closer to the Pittsburgh game and you're kind of winning 500 ball,
04:55I think that's when it gets to be really interesting.
04:57Like, is there a moment where you're in the playoff hunt
04:59and you actually go to Shador because you think it might spark a better chance
05:04to win because of the explosions?
05:05Yeah, I mean, think about it, and that's the important part, the explosives, right?
05:08And this is why this is such a fascinating thing for myself.
05:10Like, if you're the Browns and you're thinking about this,
05:12am I going to take five explosions of game,
05:14or am I going to take, I don't know, 40 competent throws?
05:18That's really what you're asking against right here
05:20because what do we know about Shador?
05:21We know he can give you four to five explosive plays in a game.
05:24We just don't know what's going to happen the other 30 times he throws the football.
05:27But what do we know with Deshaun?
05:28Deshaun, for 30, 35 passes, is going to give you competent football
05:31and is not going to turn the ball over and is going to move the chains.
05:34You've got to get better in the red zone.
05:36I think everyone acknowledges that.
05:37But, like, that's what you're weighing right now.
05:39You're weighing the five explosives versus competent play for across the game.
05:43Now, I disagree with Ashley on Spencer Fano.
05:47Long term, I think Spencer Fano is going to be a starting offensive lineman for this team.
05:52I think the question is, where will he start?
05:55I actually agree with her on the sentiment that Zion Johnson is not helping him,
06:00that the other penalties on the offensive line aren't helping him.
06:03Yeah.
06:03And they might be holding both rookies back.
06:05At the same point, in four of the last five weeks,
06:09Spencer Fano's pressure rates have been 13.5% or more.
06:13The one game that was really good was the Tennessee game, and that's not –
06:17they don't have a great edge rusher.
06:19But against Chase Young, Alex Highsmith, Nick Herbig, and Trey Hendrickson,
06:24Spencer's really struggled.
06:26And this year, to me, was always the audition for Spencer at left tackle specifically.
06:31So, it's not like – again, if he fails the left tackle test,
06:35I think he'll either be your center or a guard next year for you.
06:38And I still think he'll be a really good football player.
06:41But if he wants to stay at left tackle, I think the next eight weeks are critical.
06:46Yeah, eight weeks are critical games is what I meant.
06:49They are critical for him to actually stick in there because I think we should be on alert with this.
06:53He's got to get a lot better.
06:53As of right now, between just tackles in the NFL, he is dead last as far as quarterback pressures are
06:59concerned.
07:00And by the way, not great for Titus Howard.
07:01He's also sitting in the top five of this metric as well.
07:04So, like, between the two sides, your right and your left, you've just been getting destroyed.
07:08And Spencer has just been – it's just not consistent.
07:12It's not good.
07:13But we've talked about this before.
07:14Leading into when you drafted him, the whole conversation was what?
07:18Yeah, he gives you a left tackle.
07:19Yeah, you give him this year to see if he can do it.
07:21And then next year, if he can't, you push him inside, and then you make that run that way.
07:24I mean, Coach Riz was pretty adamant, based off everything he was watching in the preseason,
07:28that he's going to end up being a guard one day.
07:30One way or another, it's going to end up happening.
07:32Yeah, we're adamant, by the way.
07:34Sorry, we're adamant.
07:35We all know the quarterback is concern number one, offseason need number one with a bullet.
07:41It's not even – whatever's going to be two is going to be fascinating.
07:44Between left tackle, maybe center with Elton Jenkins and how he's played,
07:48right tackle, edge rusher, certainly more maybe running back.
07:54Yeah.
07:55I think there's a lot more questions on this team answered than we realize,
07:59but there are also some still big fundamental pieces.
08:03That's why – and it's not – so the next eight games aren't just huge for Spencer.
08:07They're huge for the Browns, too.
08:08No question about it.
08:09I think it's a little easier to find a third-round center that maybe where Spencer could move to
08:14and keep your left tackle than flipping that.
08:16I mean, I think for the longest time we all envisioned if you wanted to go up and get a
08:19quarterback,
08:19just package the other first-round pick with the Rams and maybe throw in another pick here and there.
08:23And we're just going to – that's how we'll get the guy.
08:25And you look around and you're like, guys, we have a lot of help we need on this team.
