- 23 hours ago
John, Jenny, and Shelby examine how fundraising, staff fees, personal debt, and dependence on donors can shape life inside Youth with a Mission. They discuss reports of workers struggling to cover food, housing, outreach expenses, hygiene products, and other basic needs while financial provision is interpreted through ideas about faith, sacrifice, spiritual maturity, and divine blessing.
The conversation explores giving nights, public displays of financial need, unequal access to international donors, property expansion, organizational assets, and the pressure to give even during personal hardship. They also ask whether continual growth creates a permanent need for fundraising—and whether larger teachings such as the Seven Mountains mandate can reinforce a recurring sense of urgency that sustains the donation cycle.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:06 Where Does the Money Go?
06:20 Staff Debt, Public Shame, and Financial Vulnerability
11:02 The Economic Divide Inside YWAM
15:30 Poverty, Blessing, and the Financial Double Bind
20:06 “Living by Faith” and the Culture of Giving
24:33 Debt, Shame, and the Cost of Missionary Life
29:21 How Religious Fundraising Creates Perceived Need
34:32 Expansion, Property, and Financial Accountability
37:41 Is It a Pyramid Scheme? Drawing the Legal Boundary
41:09 Giving Nights, Pressure, and Financial Guilt
45:47 Does Missionary Success Require Perpetual Expansion?
49:11 When Growth Becomes the Mission
51:40 Does Urgency Keep the Donation Cycle Going?
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation explores giving nights, public displays of financial need, unequal access to international donors, property expansion, organizational assets, and the pressure to give even during personal hardship. They also ask whether continual growth creates a permanent need for fundraising—and whether larger teachings such as the Seven Mountains mandate can reinforce a recurring sense of urgency that sustains the donation cycle.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:06 Where Does the Money Go?
06:20 Staff Debt, Public Shame, and Financial Vulnerability
11:02 The Economic Divide Inside YWAM
15:30 Poverty, Blessing, and the Financial Double Bind
20:06 “Living by Faith” and the Culture of Giving
24:33 Debt, Shame, and the Cost of Missionary Life
29:21 How Religious Fundraising Creates Perceived Need
34:32 Expansion, Property, and Financial Accountability
37:41 Is It a Pyramid Scheme? Drawing the Legal Boundary
41:09 Giving Nights, Pressure, and Financial Guilt
45:47 Does Missionary Success Require Perpetual Expansion?
49:11 When Growth Becomes the Mission
51:40 Does Urgency Keep the Donation Cycle Going?
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-hosts, researchers, and friends, Jenny
00:45McGrath and Shelby Hoffer, former members of Youth with a Mission.
00:49Jenny, Shelby, it's good to be back and to talk about money.
00:54There's one aspect of Youth with a Mission that I find really fascinating, and it's the
00:59same question that my grandfather asked in his resignation speech whenever he and the
01:04entire staff of the Branham Tabernacle resigned.
01:07They said, where is the money going?
01:10And I want to ask that question, but I want to ask it very carefully because there are
01:15some legal issues with talking too deeply about money.
01:18I want to focus instead on some of the testimonies, and I think you have one that we can talk
01:23through, Shelby.
01:23Shelby, I was going to talk today instead about trauma laughter, which we'll put that
01:29into the queue and talk about it later.
01:32One of the comments is, I got this, I think, on one of your podcasts and also one with Pia
01:39Hugo, why do we laugh all the time?
01:41And it has to do with all of the trauma.
01:43And to be honest, it's because while we're having a podcast, we can't just go get a good
01:47drink, we start laughing, and that helps with the trauma.
01:52And speaking of drinks, Jenny came to share her trauma experiences with us over nice, fancy
01:59drinks downtown.
02:00And I got some pictures.
02:01I'll throw them up here on the screen.
02:03But we had quite a good time talking about all of the battle scars that we have of being
02:08in high-demand groups and high-control groups.
02:11And anyway, had a lot of fun.
02:13And Jenny, it was good to have you here.
02:16Absolutely.
02:17Thanks so much for having me.
02:18It was so fun to get to hang out and to talk about many of the things we talk about
02:23on
02:23here, but it was much more fun to do it over a good meal and with a nice drink.
02:29And the Red Yeti was like, we raved about that meal for days.
02:34It was like one of the best things we've eaten.
02:36So I so appreciate your time.
02:39I know our life is chaotic.
02:40We literally messaged you and we're like, we're in town, let's hang out.
02:44And you said yes.
02:46So, so glad it got to work out.
02:48Thank you so much.
02:50Yeah, it's one of my favorite places.
02:52There are multiple high-demand groups in this area.
02:55And what I found out is the Red Yeti statue outside scares them all away.
02:59So we can eat there in peace and then we can go into the real world of high-demand groups
03:03that are scared of Red Yetis.
03:05But anyway, we do have a serious topic today.
03:08The money.
03:09Like my grandfather said, where does the money go?
03:12And Shelby, you were telling me that you had some feedback from somebody who was listening
03:17and it tied directly into this conversation.
03:20So I'll let you kick it off.
03:21Yeah, we got some really helpful feedback from a listener.
03:26So when you guys send in your comments or emails to the podcast, it's really helpful.
03:32Always in perspective and just sharing other people's stories.
03:35So when we all read it, for me, it was really like, this person is exactly correct.
03:42This happens all the time.
03:44I certainly saw it in the various parts of the world that I was with YWAM.
03:49And I thought it could be really helpful to sort of read some of this feedback and then
03:54talk about the ways that we're seeing some of this and the why things like this are happening
04:00that are directly connected to YWAM's foundational values, as we've been talking about.
04:05So this person was wanting us to address what happens often.
04:12This person had been based in a majority world context, even though they were not from the
04:18majority world.
04:19And so they were saying, you know, some local usually staff, so people who are usually coming
04:26on staff from the local context cannot pay their staff fees.
04:30So when you go and you join staff or you join a school, you have to pay to go to
04:34that school.
04:35Or when you eventually join staff, there are what's called staff fees that are meant to
04:39often cover things like your rents or your food costs.
04:43Sometimes there's admin or internet costs in that, you know, insurance, things like that.
04:48So it's often sort of lumped into one sum that you're meant to raise yourself as a staff person.
04:54Um, some places will give a sliding scale based on the country that you come from.
05:01And some places it's the same across the board, but there comes a time when often these local
05:06staff cannot pay their staff fees and they end up in debt to the base.
05:10Uh, for some living on a base is an upgrade from their normal life.
05:15So whereas for some staff, it's a really significant downgrade in their living standards and move
05:19on to a YWAM base.
05:20But for many people, especially, uh, often in the majority world, it is an upgrade, uh,
05:25for them, uh, for some being on staff gives access to the possibility of raising international
05:32funds in a country where it's difficult to get jobs, uh, and where many people live in
05:37poverty.
05:38So YWAM often has insurance, uh, a safe building that will maybe withstand, you know, natural disasters.
05:45Uh, they have food, they have international friendships and a lot more sort of, um, benefits
05:51to being part of that group.
05:53So this tends to put some staff in a very vulnerable position.
05:57And this, I 100% agree with, and we'll talk about that, especially if they're not able to
06:03raise the needed funds for the fees and the outreaches.
06:06So if you are on staff and then maybe you're staffing a school, so a DTS or another course,
06:11and you have to go on an outreach as a staff person, you are often required then to raise
06:17your own funds for that as well.
06:19Uh, so sometimes that sort of those needs, those fundraising needs that leads to debt of
06:25months or years.
06:26This is absolutely true.
06:27I've seen people here in Switzerland, tens of thousands of Franks in debt to a YWAM base.
06:33Uh, what do you do with that?
06:36We're going to talk about that.
06:37Um, it also makes it close to impossible to leave the organization without also losing
06:43relationships or more.
06:45Uh, I heard a horrific story of someone in a, from a South American country going to another
06:51South American country.
06:52They got in debt at the base, uh, and the base leadership took their passports so that
06:59they could not leave that base before their debt was paid.
07:03Pretty sure that's illegal in a lot of places.
07:06Um, so this person says, you know, they had seen staff who aren't able to raise enough
07:10funds.
07:10They have years of debt.
07:11And what often happens, this is so true, is like the debt gets posted on whiteboards for
07:17the entire base to see.
07:19Um, so they'll say like, Hey, these are our prayer needs for the community, you know,
07:23so-and-so owes this much, so-and-so needs this much, you know, that's what that's that.
07:27And then as money comes in or people give, you know, it's erased and sort of updated.
07:33Um, and they're often, it's often framed as a way of like, well, if people don't know about
07:38the need, how can they give to the need?
07:40And so we're here to just pray for it.
07:42You know, we want it out there, but there's not consent actually in that it's, you need to
07:48sort of agree to, to have this up.
07:51Um, another problem is that people with debt are not as easily able to gain influence or
07:57leadership roles.
07:58Uh, fundraising is sometimes seen as a breakthrough.
08:01Like if money comes in, it's God's favor on you that, oh, finally, like there's been
08:05some spiritual breakthrough, spiritual warfare.
08:08Um, and then it's seen as maybe that God has blessed and anointed that person.
08:12So, uh, if there's a staff person with less funds, they somehow wind up living at the mercy
08:18of the other staff, uh, depending on them for covering their basic needs, such as laundry
08:23soap and hygiene articles.
08:25They're often more at the subject of prayer meetings.
08:28So they're required to sort of lay their personal details out for everyone, or it's done without
08:33their permission.
08:35This dynamic also leaves a higher possibility of Westerners with access to funds becoming
08:39influential, uh, or being in a position of defining the premises of who amongst the
08:47locals becomes influential.
08:49So I have money, I have power, I have whiteness, and I can actually say, you know what?
08:54I think that person, yeah, I know they're struggling financially.
08:56I think they'd be a great leader.
08:58Let's see if we can get their debt cleared.
08:59You know, let's see if we can do that.
09:01And those voices are often listened to more.
09:04So I thought that was a really helpful feedback, um, because this is something that is entirely
09:13common across the board.
09:15Uh, and if we want to talk about linking that into YWAM's foundational values, uh, value number
09:2216 says practice dependence on God.
09:26YWAM is called to practice a life of dependence upon God for financial provision.
09:31For individuals and for any YWAM team or community, this comes primarily through his, God's people.
09:38As God has been generous towards us, so we desire to be generous, giving ourselves, our
09:43time, and talents to God with no expectation of remuneration.
09:47And then there's a slew of Bible verses meant to, to back that up, um, in tandem with that value
09:55number 13 is being relationship oriented.
09:57And this is often where it's believed that you're supposed to be living in community in
10:02the way that YWAM defines living in community, which is most often in one sort of, you know,
10:08base situation.
10:09But it says YWAM is dedicated to being relationship oriented in our living and working together.
10:14We desire to be united through lives of holiness, mutual support, transparency, humility, and
10:21open communication rather than a dependence on structures or rules.
10:26And I just want to echo gratitude for people sending in stories because the more stories
10:35we have, the more we can talk about these different things.
10:38So, we don't take those lightly and we do read them and we do appreciate the different
10:43insights and directions that, that folks are sending in.
10:47So, I just want to echo a thank you for that.
10:49And as you were reading, I was thinking about one of the times I was in Africa and I was
10:56talking
10:56to a friend who said, you know, whosever idea it was to come up with living on support
11:03was not African.
11:04They clearly had people in their lives that they could rely on for support.
11:11And that really struck me because at the time, you know, I specifically did my School of Biblical
11:19Studies in South Africa because for me, coming from Colorado, it was affordable and I could
11:28leverage, I think part of it was like a savings account that my grandmother had started for
11:34me to go to college and I was like, well, this is the type of college that I'm going to
11:38do and so, I could use that.
11:41And I also had a lot of financial benefit from my parents, from my church, from different
11:47things that allowed me to do that.
11:49And I didn't always appreciate that and the privilege that I had to be able to fundraise
11:56around folks who were affluent, who had more than what they needed, who could give.
12:03And so, I think it does create a lot of disparity between how people live on YWAM basis.
12:11You know, on the same base, you'll have people that spend every day going to coffee shops
12:17or Starbucks or different things like that.
12:19And also people, like you said, that are struggling to pay for laundry detergent.
12:24And it's this facade that we're all in this together, but it is a microcosm of economic
12:32disparities that are across the globe, just really, really condensed into the different bases.
12:38So, from my perspective, it's not just youth with a mission that has this perception of
12:44a problem that exists with financials.
12:47Almost every group that we've examined that is a high demand, high control group, there
12:52seems to be some level of accountability issues, whether they are real issues or whether it's
12:58just perceived issues.
12:59And many members talk about this.
13:01We were in a high demand group with the Branham organization.
13:04And I remember there was a point in time when we were just about to make the decision where
13:10we were going to leave.
13:12And they were, at that time, collecting penny jars from the children to give to the organization,
13:18teaching them that it's good to give to God is kind of how they framed it.
13:22And it's really sad because as a parent, we had the perception that they needed a lot
13:27of money.
13:27And, you know, while these are penny jars, they take just a fraction of your paycheck.
13:33Well, if they're asking for pennies, they probably need dollars.
13:35And we gave them hundreds of dollars.
13:38I wish that I could take that back.
13:41But there was a point in time in which, after I left, the news media published the fact that
13:48they had $100 million in extra assets right while they were collecting all these penny jars.
13:55And I was thinking about that, and I was also thinking back about something that happened
14:00with my grandfather.
14:01My grandfather was a very humble man.
14:04He drove an old Oldsmobile to and from church.
14:07Everybody knew him as this guy that just wasn't really looking for money.
14:11And I was surprised when he died and his estate had millions of dollars in it.
14:16It just blew my mind because I had that perception of him.
14:20And I can remember being at his house with that perception and watching others who had
14:26that perception come and hand him large sums of money because they felt he needed the money.
14:32There's a point in time in which he did not drive the Oldsmobile.
14:36He did, for a brief period of time, have a Mercedes.
14:38And I remember the conversation clearly.
14:40He said, I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea, so I'm going to sell it and get
14:44another Oldsmobile.
14:47Now that I look back on that situation, it was all about the perception.
14:52He wanted to give the people the perception that he needed money because if he did, they
14:56would give him money.
14:57And that's literally what happened here.
14:59So when I hear things like you're telling and some of the others who have shared stories
15:04about not just Youth With a Mission but many of these organizations, they want to give
15:09that perception because there's a strategy behind it.
15:12So in some way, I have to believe, and this is my opinion, I can't prove it, I don't have
15:18their accounting records, but I have to believe there is a strategy of perception that comes
15:23with these high demand groups.
15:24I agree.
15:26And as you're saying that, I feel a little whiplash because I think the perception in YWAM
15:33is like this double bind where on one side, you're supposed to martyr yourself and Jesus
15:41didn't have a place to lay his head.
15:43And then on the other side, like Shelby was saying, like it's considered a breakthrough if
15:49you have your funds and if you have enough.
15:51And so it's this weird thing of like either way gets spiritualized, whether you are impoverished
15:58or whether you're quote unquote blessed, that there's this kind of really confusing whiplash,
16:06I think.
16:06And it sort of becomes such a powerful way to manipulate people in wherever they are in
16:15the socioeconomic spectrum.
16:18Um, and so I'm thinking about that too, where a lot of times it was like, I'm not doing something
16:25right because I don't have my fees, but at the same time, I'm so Christ-like because I
16:31can't afford a meal I want to have.
16:34Absolutely.
16:35There's such this sense of what we should, you know, almost like a poverty mentality in
16:41some, in some ways.
16:43But like you said, it's that double bind because on the other hand, if you have, you know, you're
16:47given more finances or you get more supporters, or you are trying to raise money to buy your
16:52own house, like I would love to buy a house, but I have to work for that.
16:56Um, you know, then you're seen as blessed.
16:59And, uh, one of the other YWAM books, uh, I've been re-looking through is Friend Raising
17:06by Betty Barnett.
17:07It's ubiquitous in the YWAM world with, this is how you raise funds.
17:13It's not fund raising, it's friend raising.
17:16And straight away in the book, you know, she's talking about these biblical principles
17:21and says, in short, conviction and attitude permeate everything we do in life, ministry,
17:27evangelism, and missions per se, and often open or close the door to God's storehouse of
17:34provisions for our missionary support, right?
17:37So there you have this really explicit formula that's saying like your attitude and the way
17:45that you think, just sort of the way that you are.
17:47If you have a bad attitude, if you're sad, if you have doubt, whatever, then you could
17:52be closing the storehouse door to God's blessing.
17:56Um, and as you get further in, I, even, I think it's the next page is as lack of confidence
18:03in what God has said, like in terms of your calling, if he's called you to missions will
18:07greatly affect our communication with others who will not want to support a missionary with
18:11an uncertain calling.
18:13Um, and I think when we're talking about perception, a lot of the feedback that I see in the comment
18:20section is people often, uh, defending YWAM or saying, well, that's just two people, you
18:27know, you've not, you know, it's not everybody and, and all of that, which is a real sort
18:32of straw man argument on its own, but you can read through the foundational values and be
18:37like, oh, those sound okay.
18:39That's, that's, that's not so bad.
18:41Right.
18:41But when you actually see the implications and the consequences of these being lived out,
18:48then you begin to see the harm, you know, so they can be this sense of, well, that sounds
18:54quite okay.
18:54I can, as a non YWAM or I can go and look at their website and I can see these
18:59are their
18:59foundational values.
19:00That sounds quite okay.
19:01Maybe I want to send my child, a young person to go join, you know, join this ministry.
19:06Um, and I saw a really, let's be generous and say naive comment on one of the episodes.
19:13I think one of the upcoming episodes by this time, it'll be out.
19:15Um, that said something like, oh my gosh, like people just need to be discerning and
19:21mature and, you know, not be caught up with this stuff.
19:25And like, we can't just go around canceling everybody and burning down a whole organization.
19:30Like people just need to do better.
19:33If, if only that were so that would be excellent.
19:37Um, but we're out here talking about these things because, uh, that's not the case.
19:42We don't live in a perfect world.
19:43We live in a very, uh, broken world in so many ways.
19:48So the, uh, perception and the reality, I think is so often missing each other, particularly
19:56when it comes to finances in the organization.
20:00And in some ways there's another part that goes hand in hand with the perception and you can
20:06tell me if it matches the, what you experienced or knew about youth with a mission, but in
20:12the Pentecostal style organizations from which all of this really eventually was birthed, there
20:18was this idea of living by faith.
20:21If you're a missionary, you basically, you don't have any centralized salary for the missionaries.
20:26There's no, there's no system for providing yet.
20:30Some of the organizations that are sending missionaries are holding these big conferences.
20:34They have lots of money.
20:35They, they, like I said, they're, they're sending out penny jars and they've got hundreds
20:40of millions of dollars and, and assets.
20:43Well, I knew missionaries who were out in the field.
20:46Some of them barely had food for their children.
20:50In fact, I've got one example on the website.
20:52The children were starving so much that there were, there were some issues that arose because
20:57of it.
20:58So while all of this money is flowing through the organization, they're telling people that
21:02this is a movement that's built by living by faith and your support comes from the churches,
21:08from the family, friends, donors.
21:10It basically creates a culture of giving.
21:13And if you can establish the culture of giving, people will give.
21:17That's part of the culture that was established.
21:20Yet at the same time, while they're proposing this culture of giving, they have the corporation
21:27structures that could actually provide for their people.
21:31And so you've got this opposing force of ideas.
21:35On the one hand, we want all the money so that we in the organization can live comfortably,
21:40but you're going to become a missionary and we're not going to supply you.
21:44God will provide your needs.
21:45And they go back to the verses in the Bible where, you know, they go into the field not
21:51having anything but the clothes on their back and the shoes on their feet.
21:54That's all well and good.
21:56But in that scenario, there wasn't a corporation behind those people being sent.
22:00It was just Jesus sending the apostles and disciples.
22:04So for me, it's like two opposing viewpoints.
22:07One is the corporation.
22:08One is the culture of giving.
22:10And they're two different worlds.
22:12What we're seeing when these groups go destructive is they start, those two worlds start to collide
22:18and people begin to wake up and realize, wait a minute, on this side of the equation, they've
22:22got a lot of money and they're living comfortably while I'm suffering.
22:25And on my side, everybody thinks that we have to give in order for me not to suffer.
22:30Why aren't they giving?
22:32So the two worlds begin to collide.
22:34This is what becomes really insidious about, like you said, joining those two things.
22:41Again, sort of quoting from this book, the author, you know, says that times will come when
22:47we and others will feel that we are so needy that we have nothing to give, nothing to be
22:51generous with.
22:53And then she says, this is our greatest test.
22:56So right here, you're trying, you're faking out a biblical principle, like God is going
23:00to test us.
23:01God may nudge us to give what little we have, even in extreme poverty.
23:05Um, and then she talks about like the impoverished Macedonians given to Paul, blah, blah, blah.
23:11Um, but then she talks about that, like Paul redefined receiving gifts as a genuine privilege.
23:17We often feel guilty for receiving donations and fail to understand God's hidden agenda.
23:23Um, talking about like honoring people when they give beyond their ability.
23:27And I see God blessing and honoring them as a result.
23:31So when you, this is sort of the understanding that you are steeped in where the, the, the
23:39idea is to always give beyond your means to, if I'm in extreme poverty, if I don't have,
23:45you know, whatever to give.
23:45And it's sad because you can take a beautiful concept of generosity and twist it into this
23:53prosperity gospel of when you give out of your extreme lack, God will bless you.
23:58God will give you more and more money, and that will be a sign of God's favor.
24:04And, and so it becomes this tumbler that people in extreme poverty give more and, you know, and,
24:11and I don't want to dismiss or disminate, diminish, you know, the ways that when that's working
24:18in a healthy way in terms of community and giving, you know, I have some, so I can get
24:22more, you know, sort of thing that can be a really beautiful situation, but that's unfortunately
24:28so often what doesn't happen.
24:31And then you see what this person who gave us, uh, you know, sent in this feedback was
24:35talking about the cycle that happens of shame and guilt and indebtedness and, and in YWAM
24:44people are, it's talked about that debt is, sometimes it's talked about that debt is a
24:49sin.
24:49You shouldn't be in debt.
24:50And if you are in debt, you're in sin.
24:52When you can't pay that debt, what do you do?
24:55Like you're just living in, in, in sin somehow.
24:58Um, or that, that is a sign that you're lacking God's favor, that you lack maturity, that you
25:04are not trying hard enough.
25:06Um, and when you see, like, I saw this being in Switzerland, people coming from the majority
25:10world, they pooled all of their family resources in order to get here, right.
25:15To get the plane ticket, to get the visa, um, to maybe if there's sometimes there's like,
25:21you have to put like a small down payment towards your staff fees so that, you know, you can have
25:25some time, like once you reach the ground and you can, you can start raising more funds,
25:29but it's this weird dichotomy of being told God will provide.
25:33So just come.
25:35And then now that you're here and God's not providing, well, you've done something wrong.
25:40There's something wrong with you.
25:42And then you just become in more, more and more indebted and all of the, um, psychological
25:48challenges that come from that, the emotional weight that that carries the guilt and the shame,
25:53especially if you're living in a different culture, um, it becomes just a big, ugly mess
26:00that we're requiring of people in order to, um, advance in the organization.
26:05Just the sad irony that if, from my perspective, the Bible has anything to say about this,
26:11there's a lot of, um, disparaging passages about keeping people in debt and what that means to,
26:18to have people in debt to you.
26:21And there's a lot that's like, don't do that, uh, live more justly and mercifully.
26:26And I keep having this idea in my head of like, where are those staffies even going to?
26:32What is that money even going to?
26:35If supposedly no one is making any money and you have all of these people paying school fees,
26:41that should be enough for the ministry to stay afloat.
26:46And so, I'm just kind of like, where is the money being siphoned to?
26:51And I know we keep asking this, but I feel like the, the most, and I, I know we've talked
26:56about
26:57this before, but it just feels like such a pyramid scheme where, where those who are on top of the
27:03pyramid have the most resources.
27:05You know, when I was in South Africa, there was months that our base didn't have enough money
27:11and we were eating nothing but lettuce and mayonnaise and bread and peanut butter.
27:17That was like the only food that was available.
27:19And then we, a group of us women from our school of biblical studies were invited to the house
27:26of one of these like international YWAM leaders.
27:29And she lived in this ginormous house by herself in a gated community.
27:35There was like baboons on her porch.
27:38I'm like, we're, what, how are we in the same world?
27:42And we've talked a lot about different acronyms of what YWAM stands for.
27:47And one of them is youth without any money.
27:50And, and that feels so true for the youth, but those that are holding the most positions
27:57of power, I, I personally have not seen base leaders or international leaders struggling
28:03for finances.
28:04I've seen them, if anything, pretty affluent and owning a lot of resources that are not
28:12the same for the folks that are continuing to try to invest into the pyramid scheme, the
28:20mission, however you want to put it.
28:22Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
28:27modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
28:33movements into the new apostolic reformation?
28:36You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
28:41william-branham.org.
28:43On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
28:49Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,
28:55and digital versions of each book.
28:57You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
29:03movements.
29:04If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
29:09contribute button at the top.
29:10And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
29:16to or watching.
29:16On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:22I've been researching these groups for quite a long time, and there's so many avenues of
29:27research that I have not yet published, some of which may end up in a book, some of which
29:32may just end up in my head, and when I die, it'll go to the grave with me.
29:35One of those avenues of research is something that I feel is strongly untapped in this religious
29:43arena that we're talking about.
29:45I'm a businessman.
29:47I know how business works.
29:48I know how donors work.
29:50I have been in business with nonprofit organizations.
29:53I've been in business with corporations.
29:55I have been in business doing consulting, and I've been on projects where the entire project,
30:03which was in the neighborhood of $100,000 budget, $200,000 budget, the entire project was for
30:10something that they didn't really ever expect to use.
30:13But the fact that they were building it created the perception of having something, even if
30:18it was never used.
30:19And so other people who might invest or might be a donor, they see that as an asset.
30:25Okay, they've got this thing, this project in progress.
30:27This is this wonderful thing.
30:29Let's donate to this company.
30:31Let's invest in this company.
30:32And so the perception from the donors is different from the perception of the workers.
30:37I, as a worker, kind of knew what was going on.
30:40I could tell you that something's a little bit off here.
30:44They're not really paying close attention to this project like they do the others.
30:47There's something's off.
30:49And then I find out later all of this stuff, right?
30:51Well, in the Pentecostal charismatic world, there came a point in time in which radio became
30:58big.
30:59They got into the radio.
31:00They got a radio slot.
31:01When you got a radio slot, now you are competing against other people who want that slot.
31:07So if you bring in lots of money, then you can be valid competition and you can keep your
31:12slot.
31:13If you stop bringing in the money, the radio is going to go to the other guy that brings
31:17in the money.
31:19So you have to create a culture.
31:21As a radio minister back in the day, you had to create a culture of giving because you
31:25had to have that money coming in.
31:28And one of the ways in which you do it is you give the people a sense of urgency.
31:33We need this now.
31:34We don't need this next year.
31:36We need it now.
31:37And with the sense of urgency came the doctrinal sense of urgency.
31:41The world is ending now.
31:43You're not going to need your money tomorrow.
31:44We need your money today.
31:46I mean, that kind of stuff was happening.
31:48And that was radio.
31:49Then it began to transition to television.
31:52Once it hit television, now the numbers needed are exponential because it's not just the religious
31:58world.
31:58It's not just the radio talkers.
32:00You're talking about programming that could be very expensive to produce and very expensive
32:05to fund.
32:06So you had to bring lots more money.
32:09And the money strategy, to be a religious person in one of the slots, you really had
32:16to have a massive operation of giving.
32:18And I'm not saying it's wrong.
32:20It's just part of the business.
32:21If you didn't have it, you were kicked out.
32:24You didn't keep your radio slot.
32:26There were organizations, I'm certain, and I can't prove this.
32:30This is where I'm still in the area of researching.
32:32But there were organizations where there would be missions, much like the business that I
32:37said, where they're building something that they're never going to use.
32:40Because if you create the perception of need, then the donors will give to that perception
32:47of need, especially when combined with urgency.
32:50And I've not told either of you this until this very moment, but part of my reason for
32:55wanting to dig so deeply into Youth With A Mission is I literally want to find out what
33:00it was.
33:01I know what it has became, but I want to know what it was.
33:05And with all of that background, I'm going to say that this podcast could get very interesting
33:10as we go.
33:11So, certainly, yeah, it's because I was in for almost two decades, which feels like a
33:19long time, but I think it's been around for like 60, close to 60 years now.
33:25And so, in terms of the longevity of the organization, it's a little bit different.
33:31But what's also interesting is one of the newspaper articles that you had put on your
33:37webpage about Lauren Cunningham when he had first started Youth With A Mission.
33:41He was telling the newspaper that their goal was to go and help the missionaries that are
33:46already there to sort of take off practical work from missionaries working wherever they
33:51were working.
33:51You know, they could just be the hands and the feet.
33:53They didn't have to have any special skills, although I think they were trying to have people
33:56who had certain skills like agriculture skills or carpentry or things like that, so that
34:01they could be a help to the missionary and the missionary, something to the effect of could
34:05do the real work, you know, the Lord's work in that sense.
34:08And I thought, you know what?
34:10If that's what it had remained, that would have been cool.
34:12Like, we're not missionaries.
34:14We haven't gone to seminary.
34:15Like, we don't know nothing, you know, but we can use the skills that God's given us,
34:19you know, to do this.
34:20So, I'm very curious how it went from that to we need to have our own university because
34:24clearly nobody else out there is doing it well enough.
34:28We need to do it better.
34:29And, you know, morphed into what it is today, but talking about just sort of that flow and
34:37the finances, I've seen two big projects recently, one for YWAM Argentina and then one for YWAM
34:43a base in France called Pont de Vie.
34:46And Pont de Vie is trying to raise 100,000 euros.
34:50And I want to say YWAM Argentina is trying to raise like 900,000 or something like that.
34:55Don't quote me on that, but it's a very big number.
34:58Um, and to, you know, get buildings or to fix buildings.
35:02Pont de Vie is to fix their building, you know, this massive property that they have
35:05there in this, you know, sweet French village.
35:08Um, and the way that it's framed is so fascinating because it is a lot of this give to us
35:17and
35:18like, you will be blessing future generations.
35:21You will make sure that, you know, missionaries are sent out that, you know, trained and sent
35:25out that the gospel is shared.
35:27And I'm like, can we see some numbers on that?
35:30Because how many people have actually gone out from your base over the last 20 years and
35:36become full-time missionaries living in a culture, learning the language, learning the
35:41culture, enculturating themselves, building a life in a location and sharing what they believe
35:46is, is the gospel.
35:48It's, it is like Jenny has said, and we've said multiple times, it has so much to feel
35:55of a pyramid scheme because there is so little accountability in my experience in YWAM.
36:01And even to my present experience with YWAM, there is often an aversion to outside eyes on
36:11the situation, on the reality, whether that's, you know, something like accounting, uh, or
36:17whether that's, uh, you know, some sort of other situation, you know, we don't want a
36:23mediator to be brought in to help with the, you know, situation with the locals or something
36:28like that.
36:28There's a, there's this aversion to even saying, okay, we need money to fix our buildings.
36:32So let's go get a bank loan.
36:33You know, we have millions in property, like let's go get a bank loan so that we can fix our
36:37buildings and things like that.
36:39They would much rather have private donors, you know, private loans, even I've seen that
36:45like loans and taking loans from people in the region, uh, so that they'll pay them back
36:50at some point.
36:51Not sure how, um, it's just, where does it end and where does it go and who has eyes on
36:58it?
36:58And who suffers the most?
37:02And, you know, if we want to even just say being a missionary is to go help people
37:07that live in that region.
37:08And if you are most harming people that are from that region, then in my book, you're
37:17really failing at the mission.
37:18And if the people that live there are being put in debt and human trafficked, if they are
37:27having their passports taken and just like very, very egregious things, then that's not
37:36really what mission should be.
37:39If that is something that you get behind, there's so much to explore.
37:43So on the first topic, the pyramid scheme, I want to talk through that just a bit because
37:49I do need to set some boundaries around where I go with my research.
37:54So pyramid scheme is illegal.
37:56You can't do it.
37:57And I have no evidence to suggest that they're doing anything illegal.
38:01So if somebody is listening to this and they think that John has said that youth with a
38:06mission is a pyramid scheme, I don't.
38:08I don't have any evidence to support that.
38:10I do see a culture of giving being promoted.
38:15Is that wrong?
38:16Technically, it's not.
38:17You can give to anything that you want.
38:19I could set up a hot dog stand and have all the neighbors donate to my children and give
38:23them money for their hot dogs if they wanted to.
38:26But here's where it gets a little bit problematic for me.
38:33There is the aspect of the legalities, and I don't see anything illegal, but there's also
38:38the types of things that you can do that aren't quite ethical or immoral, and those sit outside
38:46of the law.
38:47And interestingly, you can almost examine any church and you can find some little aspect
38:52that is just sitting there right outside of the boundaries of legalities.
38:56One of the things that I see that concerns me is that there are organizations who, whether
39:05they're doing it on purpose or not, they're allowing people who are serving with them in
39:12a religious capacity to go in need because people in need attract donors.
39:18Whenever they see somebody who is in need, oh my gosh, look, these people don't have much.
39:23Let's give them some money.
39:25Let's fund the organization so the organization can get the money.
39:29That's where it gets into the questionable area for me.
39:33It's not illegal.
39:33It's not anything that you could sue them for, but it creates that perception.
39:38And that's why I wanted to target the perception in this conversation.
39:42Think about the perception from the aspect of a person who might be in one of those organizations
39:47that's not being supplied what they need.
39:49They have the perception that the organization doesn't have much money from an organization
39:55that isn't very open with the books.
39:57I'll say it like that.
39:58I have no way of even knowing what they are.
40:01Now, I assume that you can go to the IRS and you can get some of the tax forms, etc.
40:06But remember, these are spread into multiple countries, and you can't see the ledger books
40:12within each country.
40:13I've tried to do this in multiple organizations.
40:16But in those organizations that I'm referring to, not Youth with a Mission, some of the others,
40:21they also have the same perspective.
40:24There are people who are really suffering in need.
40:27Let's have a donation drive.
40:29Let's give these people some money.
40:30Yet, I see some of the things that are happening in the organization, the corporations, and I'm
40:36seeing there's a lot of money here, and there's not much money here.
40:39Where's the balance?
40:41And it all goes back to what I said before.
40:44There is the religious perception to go into the field, take nothing but the clothes on your
40:50back and the shoes on your feet.
40:51But there's also the idea that once you start doing this, you will be supplied.
40:56God will supply your needs.
40:57That's what they're telling you.
40:58Well, if you've got two sides of the equation and God has supplied the need over here, shouldn't
41:04it be distributed over on the other side?
41:07That's really the question that I have.
41:08I think what we see so often is because of all of that perception and because of that
41:16sort of theology, if you will, or ideology that is explicitly and implicitly taught from
41:24the moment that you join YWAM, so from your DTS all the way through, because fundraising
41:29is a constant need.
41:31There will be people who have privilege and access to more resources, whether those are
41:38financial or other.
41:41And those people are continuously called upon to make up the lack for those who don't have
41:47access to those same resources.
41:50So that could be split across a cultural divide, as this person gave us feedback on.
41:56That's very, very true.
41:56And I think it's probably the most common.
41:59So you see that split across a cultural divide.
42:02And that can get really wearying for all parties involved, people who are giving, people who
42:08are receiving.
42:08The people who are receiving, often more on the receiving end, let's say they were given
42:14a computer or they were given a new phone or a camera or some new shoes or something
42:20like that.
42:21And YWAM regularly has these things called giving nights, where you come together as a
42:28community, whether like this person said, it's up on the whiteboard for everybody to
42:31see who needs what, or whether it's just, hey, we know we've got needs in our community,
42:36so we're going to have a giving night and we want everybody to pray and ask God what
42:41they should give.
42:42So again, if you go back to that person who maybe only has a computer in terms of an asset
42:47to their name or a phone or something like that, there's often a pressure for them to
42:52give that to someone else who needs a computer or who needs a new phone or something like
42:57that with a belief that because I'm following this concept of generosity and giving out of
43:03my lack, I will be rewarded and God will give me back something.
43:07And if he doesn't, then I have to wrestle with the fact that I guess I don't need a computer
43:12to communicate with people, supporters that I'm supposed to be raising money, or I don't
43:18need a phone, or I've done something.
43:21I've displeased the Lord in some way, so I'm not receiving this back.
43:26And it just creates this cycle of giving fatigue and I think there's so much shame that comes
43:34on both sides because if you are someone with resources and you give and you give and you
43:38give and you might become fatigued at some point to say, oh my gosh, I just got birthday
43:45money from my auntie.
43:46Maybe, uh, maybe I should give it to someone, you know, this person who is needing to pay
43:50their staff fees, but I really wanted to, you know, get this thing.
43:54And then there's shame and guilt that immediately chases that.
43:57So, well, I should, that's so selfish of me.
43:59I shouldn't want that.
44:01Um, and another aspect that I've seen play into that, that same thing is often the leaders,
44:07uh, at least in my experience would come and say, well, we've had it so much worse.
44:12Like your apartment may have mold in it, for instance, but we raised, you know, two babies
44:18in one room and look at how God's blessed us now.
44:21Now we have our own house, you know?
44:23So it's this in idea that you have to suffer in order to get to a certain point, then you'll
44:29be blessed.
44:29And the sort of lack will be no more that you won't have to deal with that anymore.
44:34So it's a perpetuating cycle.
44:36You know, the snake sort of chasing its tail that never ends.
44:40Like you said, there's always going to be a need that is put forth and there will, that
44:46need will never stop.
44:48Um, and I, I think that that can become extremely unhealthy for so many reasons.
44:54I'm not sure we have time to go into all the reasons and the implications of that sort of
44:58understanding, but you see people trapped, you see people in debt, uh, living below the
45:05poverty line.
45:05And I was living in Switzerland, living below the poverty line.
45:09So people think, oh, maybe you can live in Switzerland.
45:11Like, wow, that's amazing.
45:13Mm-hmm.
45:15Yes, I was living here.
45:16I was surviving as so many do.
45:18So whenever you were in the field, were you fully supported?
45:22That's something actually an extra point on perception, uh, is that I was living here in
45:26Switzerland and when I got engaged to my husband, who was not a missionary, he was not a YWAMer,
45:32I actually lost most of my support because people were sort of like, oh, well, you're
45:38going to be fine.
45:38You're going to be taken care of because your husband, you know, has a salary.
45:41And so we don't need to continue to support you living in Switzerland.
45:44And now I'm like, fair.
45:46The biggest question for me really goes back to that passage about, take no thought about
45:52being provided for, take the shoes on your feet, the clothes on your back.
45:57That model, I can understand.
45:59That makes sense to me.
46:00Whenever I see the two opposing worlds, one a corporation, one the people in need who are
46:07in the missionaries, the question that comes to me first is this, does success in the mission
46:14require perpetual expansion?
46:17Because look at what's happening with not just Youth with a Mission, but many of these
46:20organizations, once they show a little bit of success, well, now we need schools.
46:25Now we need campuses.
46:26Now we need more staff.
46:27Now we need more projects.
46:29Now we need to go after more nations.
46:31We just keep expanding.
46:33And here's where it gets really odd is once you start doing this, the growth itself is
46:39actually creating the permanent financial need.
46:42So anybody who's donating to the original cause, that might have been good.
46:47Well, now you're donating to the donation of a cause, if that makes any sense.
46:51It's a vicious cycle that never ends.
46:54Absolutely.
46:55Yeah.
46:55I think you, you would not have this version of YWAM if you didn't have the version of late
47:03capitalism that we live in.
47:06And it is this system that is dependent on expansion and extraction.
47:13And it is like you are on a treadmill that every time you just catch up, it speeds up a
47:20little bit more and you have to run a little bit faster and a little bit faster.
47:25And, you know, I've shared this before, but when I was in Montana, my work duty every day
47:31for two hours for a couple, like a portion of my time was stripping copper wire so that
47:39the base would sell this copper wire.
47:42And this was granted, you know, 15 plus years ago.
47:45And so a year ago, I took my husband to a YWAM community night that was open for the public
47:51to come to and I was blown away at the upgrades that existed on the base where I lived in
47:59a
47:59Montana winter and had cold, misty showers.
48:04And now they're, you know, they have like their own kind of studio space and all of this stuff,
48:10this entirely new, um, uh, like theater that was there for the services.
48:18And I was like, wow, uh, what if we had just had enough?
48:23Like what, what if we had had just enough and we could exist and it wasn't this expansionism?
48:29And I think that that's true.
48:30It's, it is always about better, newer, bigger, you know, in the, in the base in Colorado Springs,
48:40staff doesn't own it.
48:41It's in an old hotel, but staff that live there for years or decades, they might spend
48:47a lot of money hiring contractors to fix their bathrooms, to make an extra room for their
48:53kids.
48:54All of that then just adds to the capital that the base owns.
49:00And then when they leave staff, they lose everything because they don't actually have
49:05that equity or that ownership.
49:07It all, it is all owned by the organization.
49:11What's interesting is when you see this continuous expansion, like Jenny was talking about, and
49:18it's absolutely true.
49:20You see this across the world.
49:22Um, there's a lot of, you know, sort of like rejoicing and stuff when they acquire a new
49:26property, you know, because this is God blessing YWAM.
49:30This is how it's perceived.
49:30God blessing YWAM, um, by a growth.
49:34Growth and growth is defined by more properties, you know, hopefully more people in their eyes,
49:40you know, but, but certainly more, uh, assets.
49:45And then what you begin to see, like there was this, there was this big boom, you know,
49:50of this, I, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure when it was, if it was through the nineties and
49:54the early two thousands, you know, there was, we could certainly die into a lot of the social
50:00and cultural situations that were happening in those decades.
50:03Um, but then they've acquired all this property that they can no longer care for because they
50:11don't have the people coming in as they used to.
50:13They don't have the funds flowing as they used to.
50:17And this deep reluctance to let it go, to say, you know what, this has gotten too big
50:23for us.
50:24Now we're a much smaller team in this location.
50:26We should probably just sell this off.
50:29Um, and then we'll move to something smaller, you know, something more manageable for our
50:33team, because there's always this fear.
50:35Well, this is what I've heard and experienced.
50:37There's this fear of, but what if God has a big boom, you know, and all of these people,
50:42we have another revival or something.
50:44And then all of these people want to come to YWAM and we don't have the place to house
50:49them.
50:49And I'm like, well, then wouldn't that work if that happened, wouldn't God provide for
50:53that like again, or did he only provide the one time?
50:56So there's, there's a very deep reluctance in sort of letting go of those, of those assets.
51:02And I think there could be multiple ways that could be explored as to why that reluctance
51:07exists.
51:09But, um, I think when we talk about YWAM wanting to train and send out missionaries, unfortunately,
51:15what happens across the world so often is people are spending the vast majority of their
51:19time tending to these crumbling down buildings, uh, stripping copper wire for two hours a
51:27day, uh, to sell, to, to get some money.
51:30Um, I'm not entirely sure that's what God had in mind, uh, when he wanted us to go out
51:38and share about his love.
51:40So usually I end with some statement that makes everybody feel good, but I'm actually going
51:45to end this one with a question, because this is the question that I'm really, really driving
51:50at with this avenue of research that I'm doing with youth with a mission.
51:54Like I said, I was studying the prosperity gospel, how it worked, the radio slots, the television
52:00slots, as we talked about.
52:03And when you create that type of ministry, it relies on the donations without the donations,
52:09the whole thing fizzles out.
52:09It goes away and it created a culture of donations because everybody joined into this thing thinking
52:15that, oh my gosh, they need so much money so that they can have the radio program or television
52:19show.
52:20Well, that turned into the prosperity gospel because now let's fund the conventions.
52:24Now let's fund this, that, and the other.
52:26And what it does is it's almost inevitable.
52:29It creates these communication strategies where you have to have the urgency and you have to
52:35have the donations to continue the ministry, so you create this continual perception of
52:42urgency in the doctrines.
52:44It's inevitable that that's going to happen with this type of ministry.
52:47Here's where it gets odd, and this is the question that I'm going to leave you with, because
52:51I think we can drive to this point, hopefully, in the series.
52:56It is my opinion, and it's just my opinion, that the Seven Mountains mandate wasn't really designed
53:05as a doctrine so much as it was for something else.
53:09And I'm wondering, is that what this is for?
53:12Was the Seven Mountains mandate to create the perception of urgency so that it can feed the
53:20giving donation culture and keep the cycle going?
53:24Was that the whole reason why it was established?
53:28And I'm not going to answer that.
53:30Hopefully, we'll drive to that question.
53:31Thank you so much for doing this.
53:33I love that question.
53:34Thanks so much for having us.
53:36Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
53:39the web.
53:39You can find us at william-branum.org.
53:41For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
53:45from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:54You
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