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00:00Have you talked to David Coverdale recently?
00:02I mean, David formerly retired.
00:04We all kind of saw it coming.
00:05What a career with not only what he did with Whitesnake,
00:08but with Deep Purple and with Coverdale Page,
00:10working with Jimmy Page.
00:11He can do whatever he wants.
00:13He deserves it.
00:14Rock, metal, frog, and everything in between.
00:18Welcome to this episode of Talkin' Rock with Meltdown.
00:22Don't forget to follow the audio-only Talkin' Rock podcast
00:24on all podcast platforms.
00:26And now, it's time for today's conversation.
00:30Here's Meltdown.
00:31Hey, Joel, good to see you.
00:32Hey, great to see you as well.
00:34Thanks for having me.
00:35You know, you guys are coming through town on December 23rd
00:37playing the LCA Little Caesars Arena,
00:39which, of course, is the home of the Detroit Pistons,
00:41which I know you're a basketball fan.
00:43But do you know anything about hockey?
00:45Because we need a general manager for the Red Wings,
00:47and we don't have one yet.
00:48You know, man, I grew up in Chicago,
00:52so I grew up in the worst hockey town for an owner
00:56because that guy, Bill Wirtz, wouldn't even put them on TV.
00:59So none of us really became Blackhawks fans
01:02because they weren't accessible to us.
01:03I mean, history was if it was on TV,
01:06why would they come to the game?
01:07So, I mean, talk about a different era, man.
01:10So you want to talk about bad GMs.
01:13And I still, you know, look, when you grow up in Chicago,
01:16it's like Detroit, man.
01:17You got to stick with your team, right?
01:19So, like, yeah, I've been in New York now 25 years,
01:21but I don't root for the New York teams, man.
01:23I still root for the Chicago team.
01:25So we know everything about bad GMs in Chicago, dude.
01:29Well, there's some here right now.
01:31But, yeah, December 4th in Toledo,
01:33then the Huntington Center, that's for two big shows.
01:37You got December 23rd here at the LCA,
01:38two big shows, the 30th anniversary.
01:40Ghosts of Christmas Eve, the best of TSO.
01:43They say this one's going to be the biggest and the best.
01:45So what makes this the biggest and the best so far?
01:48Because it's always been big and great.
01:51Well, you know, the funniest answer to that,
01:53as far as the production goes, is I don't know.
01:56Because, I mean, the musicians,
01:57we don't really know until we're there at rehearsals.
02:00But I know our production team, they work on that.
02:03That's a 365-day-a-year gig, dude.
02:06I mean, the last notes are still hanging in the air
02:09from the last tour, and they're talking about,
02:11all right, what are we doing next year?
02:13And talking about what they're going to put together.
02:15So we usually find that out, you know, when we all congregate.
02:18And musically, we're at the phase right now
02:20where they'll give us a song list,
02:22and we start working on the songs.
02:23We go, okay, individually, at home.
02:26Getting it together, no, it's like,
02:29I'd say a little friendly competition
02:30on who has their act together the most
02:32at the first rehearsal and knows it the best.
02:36So, you know, that's where we're at with that.
02:38Now, as far as what makes it the biggest and the best,
02:41there's going to be some new musical arrangements.
02:42There's going to be some songs that are deeper cuts
02:45that if you're there every year
02:47that you're excited about to hear.
02:49You know, the show is constantly evolving.
02:52You know, it's a show that's steeped in tradition
02:56and that it's a holiday tradition for so many
02:59and ingrained in North American holiday culture
03:01and whatnot, but it is evolving all the time, man.
03:04And, you know, that Paul O'Neill philosophy,
03:07Paul O'Neill was the founder of TSO,
03:09for those that don't know, about bigger and better.
03:12I mean, bigger is better.
03:14There was no less is more kind of thing with TSO, man.
03:17So, you know, we want you to leave going like,
03:19that's the best show I've ever been to, period.
03:21That was what Paul was all about.
03:23Bigger, more bombastic, brighter, more fireworks.
03:26Yeah, I know that the bigger and the better it could be.
03:28So people don't know, or people may or may not know,
03:31and we've talked about this in the past,
03:32but for those that don't know,
03:33you guys congregate in an arena in the middle of the country,
03:36and is that kind of when you first see the production?
03:39Yeah, that's when we first see the production.
03:42Now, like I said, as far as the music goes,
03:44we're clued in a bit earlier.
03:46But, yeah, we usually are assigned more music
03:50to have together than we're actually going to be in the show
03:54because they like to debate, take a look at things,
03:56well, on stage with the full production
03:58and debate about which one is, you know,
04:01put together better as a whole,
04:03not just how it sounds musically,
04:05but how it looks with the production
04:06and what's stronger for the show, the flow of it.
04:09That's the kind of stuff that comes together
04:11when we rehearse.
04:12And they're very much production rehearsals, man.
04:15Like, you know, the musical end of things,
04:16you better have it together when you get in there.
04:19Yeah, by the time you get there.
04:20Now, most of these shows, I'd say 90% or so,
04:23you guys play two shows a day.
04:26How grueling is that?
04:29You know, I'm pretty used to it, man.
04:31I've been doing this since 2010.
04:32I feel like if nothing else has trained me
04:35so that when I do a normal tour,
04:36it feels like I'm on vacation, you know?
04:38Like when I would tour with Whitesnake
04:40and we'd play three, four shows a week
04:42or something like that, I was like, that's it?
04:44Like, we're not doing a second show tonight?
04:47Like, later or anything?
04:49So it just kind of makes everything feel
04:51a little bit easier.
04:52So, yeah, definitely used to it.
04:55And, you know, easiest answer is common sense.
04:58It's labor of love, man.
04:59If you love what you do, you know,
05:01people say it doesn't really feel like work.
05:03And I'm sure, you know,
05:04I'm sure you're one of those people, man,
05:06that has lived their dream.
05:07I'm sure, like, what you're doing right now
05:09for your job is what you wanted to do
05:11when you were younger.
05:12You hope it works out.
05:13And when it does, like, for someone like myself
05:16who just sat there as a kid with a guitar
05:18and going, you know,
05:21it's amazing, man, when it does work out for you.
05:23I'm sure you're grateful for your gig
05:24and there's times and challenges
05:26where it feels like work.
05:27But in general, you probably have that oversight
05:30to be like, you know what?
05:31I'm really grateful to have the opportunity
05:33to be doing what I'm doing.
05:34And that's where I'm at.
05:36And I think all of us, I could speak to.
05:39I mean, there's times where we still sit and marvel
05:40and be like, man, I can't believe that arena
05:42was sold out twice today.
05:44It's, like, crazy that we're going to get to do this.
05:46Yeah, I know.
05:47I talked to one of my friends the other day
05:49who plays in a pretty big band.
05:51He's been doing it for decades.
05:52And, hey, how'd the show go?
05:53Eh, it was a show.
05:55And I thought to myself, I'm like, man,
05:57you should be happy that you get to do this
05:59after all these years
06:00because there's a lot of people, like you said,
06:02that don't get to do what they like to do every day.
06:04Yeah, I think that TSO,
06:07it can push the boundaries
06:09in terms of, it pushes you to the limits
06:13with physically and mentally
06:15in terms of work in the rock world.
06:20Like, you know, I've often referred to it
06:21as the Marines of rock, right?
06:23It's like you, but it's like,
06:24there's like a badge of honor with it, too.
06:26And it's not just a badge of honor
06:28at the end of the tour.
06:29It's like every day, you know,
06:30you're like, made it through the day, man.
06:32You know, I didn't hit one wrong note today.
06:35Nothing bad.
06:35Like, everything was, you know, on point,
06:38it did it all.
06:39And, you know, because it's not just the two shows.
06:41It's a sound check.
06:42It's the signing line
06:44after we're done with the evening show.
06:47And that's something different.
06:48And I don't think we mentioned that yet
06:50in the interview.
06:51But, you know, it's basically a free meet and greet.
06:54I mean, who does that?
06:55Yeah.
06:56Every evening show,
06:57you get the whole band
06:58and we sign anything you want.
07:00You can come through the autograph line
07:02or whatever.
07:03And, you know, that's really allowed us,
07:05despite the success, you know,
07:07this commercial success that TSO has,
07:09it's still be kind of grassroots in a way, man.
07:11I mean, we're on a first name basis
07:13with a whole lot of the fan base.
07:14And, you know, that's that kind of
07:16working class attitude that, you know,
07:18I know certainly people in Detroit,
07:20you know, and Chicago,
07:22even though we have that rivalry, man,
07:24us Midwestern guys, man,
07:25we appreciate that,
07:26like that work ethic
07:27and that keeping it real kind of thing.
07:29You know, we're not these coastal
07:32blitzy people, you know,
07:33and it's like, you know,
07:35to roll up the sleeves
07:35and get it done, man.
07:37That is true.
07:37Yeah, yeah.
07:38There's a thing called grit for sure.
07:40So the show is, like I said,
07:41December 23rd, the LCA,
07:42and December 4th,
07:43if you're in Toledo
07:44at the Huntington Center.
07:45Hey, you just brought up Whitesnake.
07:46You know, David Coverdell
07:47just all of a sudden
07:48just kind of disappeared.
07:49Have you talked to David Coverdell recently?
07:52I mean, David,
07:52formerly retired.
07:54I mean, which we all kind of saw coming
07:56and, you know,
07:57he had put an end
07:59to the farewell tour
08:00kind of in the middle of it,
08:02more or less.
08:02And that's something I think
08:04we all more or less saw coming,
08:06but just were waiting on David
08:07to, you know,
08:09take his time
08:09and think things through
08:10and see what he really wanted to do.
08:12And he made a formal announcement
08:16regarding his retirement.
08:18And, you know,
08:18he's got my full support.
08:20I mean, I had a great time in the band.
08:22I love David.
08:22But he certainly earned it, man.
08:24What a career
08:24with not only what he did
08:26with Whitesnake,
08:26but with Deep Purple
08:27and with Coverdell Page,
08:29working with Jimmy Page.
08:30You know, I mean,
08:31great career.
08:32You know, he's a legend, man.
08:34So, like, he can do,
08:35as far as I'm concerned,
08:36he's deserved to, you know,
08:37he can do whatever he wants.
08:39He deserves it.
08:40Yeah, no doubt about that.
08:41You know, you're 100% accurate.
08:43But it's kind of funny
08:44because he retired
08:45from touring and whatnot.
08:46And then it really shocked,
08:48well, shocked me anyways.
08:48He's like,
08:49well, I'm done with social media
08:51because he was at social media
08:52all the time.
08:53And it's like,
08:53also, it's like,
08:54wait, wait,
08:55now you're really gone.
08:57Well, I think that,
08:58I think he really looked at that
09:00as part of what weighed on him
09:03on a daily basis
09:04in terms of, you know,
09:06just what it is to be a musician
09:08and interact with the fans.
09:10And I think he just wanted
09:11to really, you know,
09:13downshift.
09:13And he earned the right to do it.
09:15So, I mean,
09:15I think he's been stepping back in
09:17a little bit on social media
09:19and maybe backed off of that
09:20a touch just recently.
09:22I don't know.
09:23But, you know,
09:25I know he's active
09:26on our band thread still.
09:28We have a band text thread.
09:29So, I still get texts
09:30from David about every day.
09:32Just so happens to be
09:34the band lineup.
09:35So, you know,
09:35I mean, he's a great guy, man.
09:37And I tell you what,
09:38great boss to have,
09:40great bandmate,
09:41great, you know,
09:43great dude.
09:44So, I don't really have
09:45anything bad to say
09:46about the experience
09:47and time and what I say.
09:48And I think people will go,
09:49no, come on, really?
09:50And I'm like, no, for real.
09:51Like, I got nothing, man.
09:53Nothing bad to say.
09:54Like, people,
09:55I waved for some,
09:57you know,
09:58oh, it was just so difficult
10:00with it.
10:00No, it was great.
10:01I had a great time.
10:03It was a great experience.
10:04No, I've interviewed you
10:05several times.
10:06You seemed like
10:06a really good dude.
10:07David Coverdell,
10:08I interviewed a bunch, too.
10:09And I didn't work for him
10:10or know him
10:10in the capacity that you do.
10:12Shakes is my buddy.
10:13I don't know
10:14if you remember Shakes.
10:15But he had nothing
10:16but nice things
10:17to say about him.
10:18I can't, yeah,
10:19I don't think anyone
10:19would say a bad word
10:20about David Coverdell.
10:21I never met anyone
10:22that has, by the way.
10:23Yeah, well,
10:23there was a lot of turnover
10:24in the band,
10:25but a lot of that
10:26took place in the 80s.
10:27Right.
10:27And by the time,
10:28when you join a band
10:2930 years after that,
10:30people forget that
10:31people have evolved
10:32over the course
10:32of 30 years.
10:34And what's happening
10:35with the band
10:36has evolved greatly
10:37since then.
10:38So, you know,
10:38my tenure in the band
10:39and my time,
10:40you know,
10:40was a much different
10:41experience, I'm sure,
10:42than the people
10:43were experiencing
10:44in the 80s.
10:45Yeah.
10:46Well, I hope that
10:47the band thread
10:47doesn't include
10:48all the former members
10:49because that would be
10:50a long list of guys.
10:53You know,
10:54he's really,
10:56you know,
10:57been good about,
10:58like, you know,
10:58or was good about that
11:00in the time
11:00that I was in the band
11:01as far as people
11:02that would come up
11:03and play with us.
11:04You know,
11:04Vivian Campbell
11:05got up and jammed
11:06with us and,
11:07you know,
11:07we played with Def Leppard
11:08and Adrian Vandenberg
11:10would get up with us
11:11several times.
11:13Bernie Marsden,
11:14rest in peace,
11:15you know,
11:15got up and jammed
11:16with us several times
11:18in my time in the band.
11:20So, you know,
11:20the past members,
11:22there was a good
11:23relationship there
11:24with all of them,
11:25I think,
11:26except for,
11:27you know,
11:27John Sykes
11:28and they just couldn't
11:29see eye to eye
11:30for whatever reason.
11:31I don't know
11:32the specifics of that.
11:33I don't really want to know.
11:34Right.
11:35Well, you just brought up
11:36Adrian Vandenberg
11:37and I talked to my friend
11:38Bumblefoot earlier today.
11:39I know you were with him
11:40last night at this fundraiser
11:42for to fight teen cancer
11:44and I saw your pictures
11:44on social media.
11:45It was really cool.
11:46And as usual,
11:47I'll text my buds
11:48and I'll say,
11:48hey, give me a question
11:49for Joel Holkster.
11:50So his question
11:51from Bumblefoot is,
11:53would you rather play
11:54Believe or Here I Go Again?
11:56Which one would you
11:57rather play on stage?
11:58I'd rather play
11:59Here I Go Again, man.
12:01I mean, you know,
12:01like Believe is that
12:03that was a fun thing
12:05to be a part of
12:05the Cher gig
12:07and then the camp
12:09for the,
12:10you know,
12:10I really did the touring
12:11and residencies
12:13for a few years of that
12:14and then got to do
12:15a couple more
12:16high-profile things
12:17like play with her
12:17at her Rock and Roll
12:18Hall of Fame induction
12:19and the SNL 50
12:22homecoming concert
12:23that was obviously
12:24nationally televised as well.
12:26So,
12:26you know,
12:26it was all a blessing,
12:27but, you know,
12:28I didn't grab a guitar
12:29and start playing rock songs
12:31to necessarily envision
12:32myself playing it.
12:33You know,
12:35dance songs
12:35and things of that nature.
12:36But that being said,
12:38I had a great time, man.
12:39You know what I mean?
12:39Like you,
12:40when you get older
12:41and you mature in the business,
12:42you recognize like,
12:44all right,
12:44this isn't what I pictured,
12:46but it's an awesome
12:47life experience,
12:48you know,
12:48and you'd be dumb
12:49not to do it.
12:50So,
12:50yeah,
12:51nothing but good things
12:52to say there as well.
12:53Well,
12:53you may be surprised to know
12:54since I'm a rocker
12:55through and through,
12:56but I did see you on stage
12:57one time with Sharon.
12:58It was actually really good
13:00and you look like
13:01you're having a blast up there.
13:02So,
13:02as always.
13:04Yeah,
13:04man.
13:05I mean,
13:05look,
13:07you're lucky
13:08to have the opportunities,
13:09dude.
13:09I mean,
13:10what am I supposed to say?
13:11You know,
13:12it's like people,
13:14people online
13:14in the comment sections
13:16will occasionally
13:16have things to say,
13:18like,
13:18you know,
13:18snide remarks
13:19about playing gigs
13:20like that.
13:21It's like,
13:21man,
13:22we're just on different pages,
13:23man.
13:24I just wanted to be,
13:25myself,
13:26my only goal
13:27was to be a pro guitar player.
13:28So,
13:29when things work out,
13:30I've always had
13:31a pretty open mind
13:32in terms of what
13:32I'm willing to do.
13:34Like,
13:34you want me to go play that?
13:35Yeah,
13:36that's not exactly
13:36what I pictured
13:37when I started,
13:38but let's go see
13:39what it's about.
13:39I'm going to work hard
13:40to do the best I can at it.
13:42And I think because of that,
13:44my career has flourished
13:47and done well.
13:48I think,
13:48you know,
13:48just being open minded
13:49a little bit,
13:50man,
13:50you know,
13:50and making the best of it.
13:52Maybe it's not exactly
13:53what you pictured,
13:54but you can still find
13:56some really cool experiences
13:57through that.
13:58I encourage anybody
13:58to do that
13:59with what it is
14:00they're after
14:01and live in their dreams.
14:02You can't be too
14:04narrowly focused
14:05on what it is
14:06you're trying to do.
14:07You know,
14:07I think you need to
14:08branch out
14:10and interact
14:11and it's funny,
14:12you know,
14:13there's an old saying
14:14that work creates work
14:15or another one
14:16that the harder you work,
14:18the luckier you get.
14:19And for me,
14:21I've always been
14:22a little more interested
14:22in being a real world
14:23guitar player,
14:24like somebody who is
14:25doing gigs
14:25or recording.
14:28You know,
14:28it's not to
14:30say anything derogatory
14:31about,
14:32you know,
14:32the current generation
14:33of content creation
14:36because there's a lot
14:36of very talented people
14:37doing it
14:38and it is a tougher
14:39business these days
14:40to,
14:42you know,
14:43make a living
14:43in the real world
14:44with it.
14:45So I get it.
14:46But that for me
14:47is not as artistically
14:48rewarding
14:49as doing the things
14:49we're talking about.
14:50I love recording.
14:51I love making records
14:52and recording
14:53on other people's records,
14:55even if it's not
14:56my material.
14:57Like,
14:57I love that.
14:57I love trying to come up
14:58with the guitar part
14:59that'll make their song click.
15:02That kind of stuff,
15:03I dig.
15:03And I love playing live
15:06in any capacity.
15:07You know,
15:08the shared thing,
15:09most of that gig,
15:09you saw it,
15:10we were in the background
15:11on a bandstand.
15:13But,
15:13you know,
15:14what I talk about that
15:15is I think I had for,
15:17at that point now,
15:19I had got Night Ranger
15:21and Rock of Ages
15:22and TSO
15:23and Whitesnake.
15:24So I was getting
15:24a lot of like,
15:25you know,
15:26hard rock.
15:27And with the shared thing,
15:29you know,
15:30I had gone through
15:31a lot musically
15:32to get where I ended up.
15:34And so I learned
15:34a lot of different styles.
15:36I played a lot
15:36of different things.
15:37And when you play
15:38a catalog like that
15:39that has five generations,
15:41five decades of hits,
15:44like you've,
15:45one minute you're
15:45playing a disco song,
15:47you know,
15:47I mean,
15:48you know what?
15:49I like,
15:50I know that people
15:50might think that's weird,
15:51but like I had a lot
15:52of fun doing that
15:53just because I hadn't
15:54been able to do it
15:55in so long,
15:55you know,
15:56it's like,
15:56yeah,
15:56I know how to do this,
15:57man.
15:58You know,
15:58I know how to do
15:58the walk-a-chalka-walk-a-chalka
15:59with the line
16:01and funk out.
16:02And that's not something
16:03you get a chance to do
16:04on a lot of the
16:05harder rock gigs,
16:06you know,
16:06but that being said,
16:08man,
16:08you know,
16:08blessed to have all of it.
16:10Hey,
16:10and by the way,
16:11that's not a slight.
16:11What I'm saying is,
16:12so you look like
16:13you are having a blast
16:13no matter what stage
16:14I've seen you play on.
16:15That's what I'm,
16:15that's what I'm trying
16:16to get at for sure.
16:17No,
16:17it looks like you're
16:18having fun.
16:19I think,
16:20you know,
16:20I consider myself grateful.
16:21It took a long time,
16:23dude,
16:23you know,
16:23for things to open up
16:25and like,
16:26you know,
16:26I always made my living
16:27with guitar all the way
16:28from like,
16:29you know,
16:29getting out of studying
16:30guitar and getting
16:30out of school,
16:31but it took a while.
16:33It took a while
16:33to get to that point
16:34where it's like,
16:35you know,
16:35oh,
16:35people know who you are.
16:36They want your autograph
16:37or they want your picture,
16:38all that kind of stuff,
16:39which again,
16:40wasn't necessarily my focus.
16:41My focus was like,
16:42man,
16:42I just want to make
16:43a living with this thing.
16:44I think I came from a,
16:45you know,
16:45I know I came from
16:46a poor family
16:47and I think I like,
16:49you know,
16:50the blue collar suburbs
16:51of Chicago,
16:53not Chicago downtown,
16:55but it's like unrealistic
16:57to expect it.
16:59Like,
16:59I'm going to be famous
17:00out of here
17:00or something like that.
17:01Or,
17:02you know,
17:02if I would have said
17:04to anybody
17:05that I would play
17:06with the acts
17:07that I've been able
17:07to play with,
17:08they just would have
17:09been like laughed at,
17:10you know?
17:10Yeah,
17:11you've had a great career,
17:12You've been able
17:12to play with a lot
17:13of great players.
17:14But yeah,
17:15TSO coming to town
17:16December 23rd.
17:17I know you got more
17:17interviews to do
17:18on December 4th
17:19at Huntington Center.
17:20By the way,
17:20you guys usually play
17:21between the holidays
17:22here in Detroit,
17:23so this time it's
17:24a couple days early.
17:25And then I go see
17:26my dad in Buffalo
17:27and you guys are playing
17:28in Buffalo between the holidays,
17:29so I'm bound to see
17:30you on one of those shows.
17:32Yeah,
17:32awesome.
17:33Right on,
17:33man.
17:34Well,
17:35looking forward
17:35to seeing you
17:36and,
17:36you know,
17:36definitely appreciate
17:37you taking the time
17:38out and helping
17:38to get the word
17:39out today.
17:40And,
17:40you know,
17:42fingers crossed,
17:43man,
17:43for the best,
17:44but I can't wait
17:45to get out there
17:45and give it a go.
17:48All right,
17:48and I'm going to tell
17:49Bumble what you said
17:50believe just for fun.
17:52Sorry.
17:53Well,
17:53you just tell him
17:56geniuses aren't
17:57allowed to ask questions
18:01through third parties.
18:03How about that?
18:04Ron's a genius player,
18:06man.
18:06I mean,
18:06he's one of my guitar heroes.
18:09You know,
18:09we all have our own
18:10guitar heroes
18:11and Ron is definitely
18:12one of my guitar heroes,
18:14man.
18:14I mean,
18:14he's an incredible talent.
18:16I don't know
18:16if people recognize
18:18how talented Ron is.
18:19He's just one of those guys
18:21that it's like,
18:22man,
18:23how?
18:23He's got his own thing
18:24with the fretless,
18:26you know,
18:27guitar up and back up here,
18:29the fret,
18:29he's the own thing
18:30with the thimble.
18:32On top of that,
18:33he's a guy that like
18:33seems to know
18:34like every single song ever
18:36and he sings great.
18:37It's just like
18:38one of those things
18:39where,
18:39you know,
18:40and if he was a jerk,
18:40he'd hate his guts,
18:41but he's the nicest guy
18:43in the world,
18:43right?
18:43So it's like,
18:44okay,
18:44well,
18:45I can't hate this guy.
18:46He's so nice.
18:47He's such a great guy,
18:49but,
18:49you know,
18:49he's,
18:50yeah,
18:50so in the end,
18:51he's just like
18:51one of those guys
18:52that I admire
18:53and I respect
18:53and he's one
18:54of my guitar heroes
18:55for sure.
18:56And he's one
18:57of the only people
18:58I know
18:58in the thousands
18:59of numbers
18:59I have on my phone
19:00that texts you
19:00with a voice memo.
19:05I just experienced that.
19:11All right,
19:12Joel,
19:12thanks so much
19:12for your time.
19:13I appreciate it.
19:14Safe travels.
19:14We'll see you here
19:15in Detroit.
19:15All right,
19:16brother.
19:16Thank you so much.
19:17Check out
19:17Talkin' Rock
19:18with Meltdown
19:19on all podcast platforms
19:20and WRIF.com.
19:23We'll see you next time.