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LearningTranscript
00:00:12So hello everybody, here is Michael from New Left and today we will be speaking about
00:00:18the situation of unions in Ireland and I am happy that I found Ian who is well versed
00:00:27in this whole Irish situation and the way how Irish unions are working, so Ian can you
00:00:35please introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, how you end up being a trade unionist?
00:00:42Sure, so my name is Ian McArdle, I am the Deputy General Secretary of the Communications Workers
00:00:48Workers Union in Ireland, we represent postal, telecoms, tech, ICT, call centre and retail
00:00:58workers, we're a private sector union in Ireland.
00:01:03How did I get involved in trade unionism?
00:01:05I basically had some friends who were trade unionists, I'd been involved in student union
00:01:10politics when I was younger and saw an opportunity to join what was then the Irish Bank Officials
00:01:18Association in Ireland, it's now the Financial Services Union, I joined, worked for them in
00:01:25their organising department for a little while and after some time I applied for a position
00:01:30in the Communications Workers Union as the head of organising and was very lucky to be
00:01:36able to take up that position, very privileged to work for the CWU, so over the years I would
00:01:43have developed the organising strategy and the organising team, I built up a team of organisers
00:01:49in the Communication Workers Union and then I changed role recently to National Officer for
00:01:58Telecoms and then more recently as I say I've been appointed as the Deputy General Secretary.
00:02:04Why did you choose this career?
00:02:07You know, there are always multiple opportunities in life, some people choose totally different
00:02:13careers, so what was the pull?
00:02:15Why did you choose, you know, being a trade unionist?
00:02:19I guess everyone has their reasons, so I'm curious, what are yours?
00:02:23Yeah, that's a good question.
00:02:26A couple of different things, I think.
00:02:29I've been, I mean, look, a lot of people I think in the trade union movement have a keen
00:02:34sense of right and wrong, social justice, fairness, equality, they're all qualities I would place
00:02:41a high value on.
00:02:45My sort of grand uncle, if you like, organised, was an organiser, a volunteer organiser in the
00:02:54village that my mother is from, so I guess it's kind of a little bit in the DNA as well.
00:03:00Very proud to have that little bit of heritage in trade union organising.
00:03:05And, yeah, I mean, I can see sort of the worker, the labour movement in Ireland, I see worker
00:03:16exploitation happen all the time, I had a keen sense of it.
00:03:19As a young worker myself, before I got involved in trade unionism, I would have been on the
00:03:25receiving end of some of that exploitation.
00:03:27And when I got involved in, like, I've been working since I was 14, 15, working summer
00:03:33jobs, working in, you know, in manual jobs where the work is tough.
00:03:39And I have distinct and clear memories of working with, as a kid with older men who would always
00:03:44say, you know, get out of this job if you can.
00:03:47I was lucky enough.
00:03:48I was a summer worker.
00:03:50So I was, you know, I had other opportunities, if you like, that these men didn't have.
00:03:55And I saw how hard they worked and the impact it had on their lives.
00:03:59And that always stuck with me.
00:04:02And then, yeah, and then the opportunity came along, essentially.
00:04:06And I just thought, this is something that I think I could be good at.
00:04:09I think I would enjoy.
00:04:11I mean, there's a bit of vocation, vocationism, I think, to most trade union work.
00:04:15I think anyone that works in the labour movement, they certainly don't do it for money or personal
00:04:21gain.
00:04:22I think these are people, like I see.
00:04:24Some do, but, yeah.
00:04:25Well, yeah, maybe some do.
00:04:29That's true.
00:04:30That's true.
00:04:30I mean, for those who are flexible with their morals, you know.
00:04:34Yeah, yeah.
00:04:35Yeah.
00:04:35I mean, that's fair.
00:04:37I, you know, I've seen, I've seen some of that, but I see so much fantastic volunteerism
00:04:45among our own shop stewards and workplace representatives in the Communication Workers Union.
00:04:50I mean, these are people that are the backbone of our union, the backbone of any union.
00:04:55These are people who are motivated to improve the workplace for themselves, for their colleagues.
00:05:01And I mean, I've seen it really sharply, starkly, clearly defined in non-union workplaces where, when workers.
00:05:10What I wanted to ask about the trade unionization in Ireland, but in general, because I pick the brains
00:05:18of trade unionists, what is your theory of mind?
00:05:22Why is it so relatively rare that people go into this kind of, I think, very fulfilling work
00:05:31and the money isn't that terrible?
00:05:33Yeah.
00:05:33It's not like we are all on minimal wages.
00:05:36So, but people are kind of, I guess, scared or maybe there is not enough validation in the society
00:05:44for that work because, in my eyes, it's one of the most fulfilling work there can be, helping other human
00:05:52beings.
00:05:52But A, it's really almost no one wants to do it, from my experience.
00:05:57And B, even the trade unionization in Europe nowadays isn't exactly rocking.
00:06:02Yeah?
00:06:02We will be talking about it.
00:06:03But I want to pick your brain what you think.
00:06:06Why is it that way it is that something that should be actually on the forefront of everyone
00:06:11that, yeah, I want to do this.
00:06:12I want to fight and help other human beings.
00:06:15Like, it's quite good life to live.
00:06:17Yeah.
00:06:18And you get paid for it.
00:06:19Even that, no?
00:06:22That, yeah.
00:06:24You have to beg people to become shop steward sometimes.
00:06:29So, what do you think?
00:06:31Are you talking about professional, like paid organizations?
00:06:35Professional as well as, I mean, that's my experience.
00:06:38When I'm talking with people, and not only in Slovakia, but in other countries as well,
00:06:42not then say, hey, join trade union and work for trade union.
00:06:47It's like go into the woods and fight the Nazis and risk your life.
00:06:51Like, the level of fear and kind of like pushback is totally off compared with what is really,
00:07:00you know, offered.
00:07:01It's, you know, no one is going to kill you.
00:07:05You know, people go into jobs that are literally dangerous rather than being trade unionists.
00:07:13And I just, there is something going on in our culture.
00:07:17And so, I just wanted to hear your opinion on what it is, because it's not rational, definitely.
00:07:23Yeah, look, it's not rational.
00:07:25I think there's a couple of things at play.
00:07:28I think we value different things now as a society as well.
00:07:34I think that's part of it is just how we value contributions to societal and economic good.
00:07:43Those have changed.
00:07:44I mean, we just had our first trillionaire in the last month or two.
00:07:50So, you know, that says something about, you know, the way capitalism has moved the needle further and further down
00:07:57the consumerist greed.
00:08:00I mean, you know, neoliberalist agenda has really accelerated quite significantly, obviously, under Trump.
00:08:09Not just under Trump, but I mean, it's been, you know, we've been on this journey for a long time,
00:08:13I guess.
00:08:14Certainly, in the Irish context, it's hard to, I mean, you've asked a couple of different questions there.
00:08:20It's hard, first of all, sometimes to get people to join unions, even when it's a workplace where the workers
00:08:28themselves enjoy full collective bargaining, which is a rare thing in Ireland.
00:08:32Ireland has a voluntarist industrial relations system.
00:08:37And what we mean by that is, you know, we can organize, I could organize in a workplace, there might
00:08:43be a thousand workers.
00:08:45I could organize 800 of them to join a union, write to the boss and say, look, we want to,
00:08:51we want to sit down and have a conversation about, you know, what's going on in the workplace.
00:08:55And the company can just ignore the union.
00:08:59They don't have to respond to me.
00:09:01They don't have to engage with me.
00:09:02There's no legal lever that my union or I can hold.
00:09:07Let's jump in.
00:09:08I guess this didn't fall from the sky.
00:09:11Some political party introduced this very peculiar, I don't know, attitude towards union to Ireland.
00:09:20Do you know when it happened and who's behind it and how it came to be that as far as
00:09:25I know, you are rather the exception than the rule in European Union.
00:09:29So, lucky you.
00:09:32Sadly, we are the outlier.
00:09:35Yes, Ireland, you know, Ireland is an interesting country.
00:09:41We tend to find Irish solutions to Irish problems.
00:09:44And our solution to the problem of industrial relations was to keep it voluntarist.
00:09:49When did it happen?
00:09:51It has always been that way.
00:09:52That's kind of the system that we inherited from.
00:09:55I mean, Ireland was colonized, as you know, by England.
00:10:00We didn't really secure independence until the 1920s.
00:10:04And we inherited a system of industrial relations.
00:10:06Yeah, but the Brits are not the way that you are, as far as I know.
00:10:10No, you're absolutely right.
00:10:12So, their system of industrial relations has evolved to reflect.
00:10:16So, you're kind of stuck for 100 years somewhere in the past.
00:10:21So, whereas in the UK, they have, you're absolutely right, they've developed a system.
00:10:27And, in fact, I used their system in my previous union.
00:10:30I worked across the 32 counties of Ireland.
00:10:34So, I was able to operate in Northern Ireland.
00:10:36And I got to use the industrial, they call it the industrial court system.
00:10:40And, within that system, you know, if an employer refuses to engage with you, but you can prove that you
00:10:47have 50% plus membership, then you can refer to the industrial court and you can force the employer to
00:10:55negotiate with you.
00:10:56Now, it's collective bargaining.
00:10:58It's limited collective bargaining, but it's collective bargaining nonetheless.
00:11:03So, yes, the UK did evolve their system of industrial relations.
00:11:08We simply haven't.
00:11:10Okay, so let's pick on that.
00:11:12How it came to be that for 100 years you kind of stuck in this loop?
00:11:18Yeah.
00:11:19And not much happens there.
00:11:22Well, that's a political choice.
00:11:23No, obviously.
00:11:24That's a political choice.
00:11:26I mean, there was a time when, and again, this is back to the Irish solution to an Irish problem.
00:11:34Ireland was a more conservative country then, perhaps, than it is now.
00:11:38But certainly at the time when Ireland was trying to open up its economy to foreign investment, our government once
00:11:46upon a time would have said to the American investors in particular that were coming into Ireland, a lot of
00:11:51them came in in the 70s and 80s to open up pharmaceutical companies.
00:11:56And they were encouraged by the government of the day, look, we deal with trade unions, we would encourage you
00:12:02to develop a relationship with trade unions.
00:12:04So a lot of the companies that came into the economy then actually did talk to unions.
00:12:11And a lot of people, a lot of workers joined the trade union movement through those positive relationships, if you
00:12:18like.
00:12:18But then came the wave of American tech investment.
00:12:23And that really brought a different culture and dynamic into industrial relations.
00:12:28Those companies were invited here to take advantage of a young, English-speaking, highly educated, modestly paid workforce.
00:12:37And they were encouraged to come to Ireland on the basis.
00:12:40And one of the questions would have been, do we need to deal with trade unions?
00:12:43And they were told then, no.
00:12:46You know, you don't have to deal with trade unions if you don't want to.
00:12:49A lot of those companies that have come here have clearly, reflecting the American culture, if you like, of the
00:12:55time, they opted not to deal with trade unions.
00:12:59And now a lot of the workers in those companies didn't want to join a trade union because they were
00:13:04well paid, they were well looked after, you know, they were seen as good jobs.
00:13:10But what we've seen now in the last couple of years is some of those companies are letting staff go
00:13:15in big numbers, particularly in the tech sector, where my union operates.
00:13:21And that's changed attitudes now.
00:13:23People are, like, particularly workers that have come here from other countries, where collective bargaining and union recognition are taken
00:13:30for granted.
00:13:32These people are now realizing, my job is at risk.
00:13:35I better join a union.
00:13:36So they contact the Communication Workers Union through our Digital and Tech Worker Alliance branch in the tech sector.
00:13:44And they say, we want protection, we want collective bargaining, we want union recognition, and we have to explain to
00:13:49them, well, under Irish law, you're not entitled to that, but we'll certainly help you fight for it.
00:13:54And that's what we've been doing.
00:13:55We've led a couple of, a number of high-profile strikes now in one particular company.
00:14:01In other words, the foreigners are bringing you the culture that you were lacking or the attitudes that you were
00:14:09lacking.
00:14:09I guess those foreigners are German-speaking and French-speaking, probably, and stuff like the Italian.
00:14:19A lot of Brazilian.
00:14:21Oh, even that.
00:14:22Yeah, a lot of Brazilian workers, a lot of Asian workers.
00:14:25Like, we have, I'm very happy to say, we've got a wonderfully diverse membership now.
00:14:31You know, we have a committee in one of those workplaces in Covail, and we just did a training exercise
00:14:40with them a couple of weeks ago, and there were 12 people from the workplace, and only one of them
00:14:45was Irish, which was, you know, it's great, because, you know, we get different perspectives, different cultural perspectives, different views,
00:14:53different ideas on how to deal with the workplace problems that these workers are dealing with.
00:14:59So, it's a truly diverse experience, and you're right, these workers are coming here, kind of demanding their rights, as
00:15:09they see it, that they should have, because they would have had them in their home country, but Ireland, as
00:15:14you said at the start, we're the outlier.
00:15:16We cannot legally guarantee union recognition or collective work.
00:15:20So, let's measure the temperature of 2026 in the Irish population.
00:15:26So, how do unions stand as a kind of force for good or, you know, some positive vibes?
00:15:34I hope that it's improving, that the vibe is kind of going into your direction, and after 100 years, maybe
00:15:46the laws might change.
00:15:47I don't know.
00:15:48Tell us.
00:15:49Well, we do need the laws to change.
00:15:52That is the answer.
00:15:53I mean, the Communication Workers Union, along with SIPTU, SIPTU would be the largest union in Ireland, you know, good
00:16:05progressive union, along with Mandate, which is an excellent union.
00:16:08They operate in the retail sector predominantly, and then the Financial Services Union, another very good union in the finance
00:16:15sector.
00:16:16So, with those three other unions, we formed a campaign called Respect at Work, and this campaign between SIPTU, CW,
00:16:26FSU, and Mandate really is to take advantage of the opportunities within the Adequate Minimum Wages Directive that was recently
00:16:35passed and is obviously now transposed across the various member states.
00:16:39So, we ran a campaign, the four unions, during the last general election in Ireland, which took place just around
00:16:48the time the transposition was due to happen, and we were looking for political parties to agree to include a
00:16:54pledge on collective bargaining and the transposition of the directive in their programme for government, and we were successful in
00:17:01that.
00:17:01We got the majority of the TDs, or certainly the majority of the candidates that were seeking election, to sign
00:17:07the pledge, and ultimately, the current government,
00:17:09has agreed to implement the Adequate Minimum Wages Directive, and they've set out now a programme of actions around that
00:17:19directive.
00:17:20So, there's a group that leads the negotiations on behalf of our Congress of Trade Unions that deals with government
00:17:29and the employers group to try and implement the best version of the directive.
00:17:35Now, obviously, there's very strong employer opposition to that, and certainly, the employer group, employers union, have said, this will
00:17:45not change the voluntarist system in Ireland.
00:17:47So, we're not going to win the war through the Adequate Minimum Wages Directive, but what it has demonstrated is
00:17:55these four important private sector unions have come together, worked very, very well together, and I think that's going to
00:18:03sort of create the benchmark, create a foundation, I should say, for future cooperation that ultimately is going to be
00:18:11focused on changing and shifting the political agenda.
00:18:14So, when you tell it to the people in Ireland, how do they perceive it, I guess, I mean, usually
00:18:22it's the case that people don't even know that it's so bad, yeah?
00:18:25People kind of take how the country is working and assume that this is normal, and when they find out
00:18:34that actually, no, normal is totally something else, even in Brazil and, you know, wherever, then I guess they are
00:18:44pissed.
00:18:44I don't know.
00:18:45Tell us.
00:18:46Yeah, I mean, workers, yeah, workers who are facing redundancies or facing uncertainty or face, you know, like if a
00:18:56worker who's come here on a visa is going to lose their job on the whim of a decision made
00:19:02by Meta, for example, to just invest in AI and hundreds of people, like we've seen, we have literally seen
00:19:09thousands.
00:19:09Yeah, but I'm asking about the Irish, not about the foreigners, the foreigners are a different story, but the Irish,
00:19:14because at the end of the day, the Irish have the political power to change it.
00:19:19And for 100 years, they were kind of dormant and didn't bother to change it.
00:19:25And I just, I hope that they slowly are waking up to the fact that being the only country in
00:19:32European Union, or I don't know, maybe two of the 27 isn't like, yeah, that's splendid.
00:19:39I'm so proud.
00:19:40Yeah, well, look.
00:19:41Be the worst.
00:19:42Yeah, look, trade unions are still very much respected in Ireland.
00:19:47So let's just be very, very clear about that.
00:19:50It's the largest civic society organization in Ireland.
00:19:55You know, there's, you know, across the island of Ireland, there's about 800,000 people are in trade unions.
00:20:02Ireland is a small country.
00:20:04So that's a significant...
00:20:05How big is the workforce?
00:20:07So what is the percentage?
00:20:08Well, the population across the island is about 5 million.
00:20:13And I think the workforce is about 2 million, I think.
00:20:172 million is the workforce.
00:20:19So it's like 30 percentage points penetration, something like that.
00:20:24Okay, okay.
00:20:25Give or take.
00:20:25It's probably in the 20s, actually.
00:20:28So maybe the workforce is a little bit higher.
00:20:29But certainly, look, the movement is, trade union movement, the labor movement is, you know, well respected.
00:20:37And I think people, Irish people, understand the value of, you know, they understand the value of community.
00:20:44They understand the value of solidarity.
00:20:47So I think that's there.
00:20:49So when you have the conversation with Irish workers about it, yes, they get it.
00:20:53When you have the conversation with Irish politicians, that's different.
00:20:57I mean, you'd be surprised that how many politicians simply don't understand, you know, that we operate in a voluntary
00:21:04system.
00:21:05Don't understand or don't want to understand?
00:21:08Because, you know, this is the thing.
00:21:11I think when you are paid for not understanding something, it's hard to understand it, no?
00:21:17So.
00:21:18I think genuinely based on the conversations.
00:21:21So the Respect at Work campaign, we had a lot of conversations with a lot of, we call them TDs
00:21:27in Ireland, with, you know, elected politicians.
00:21:30So with our, with our parliamentarians that we met, both candidates that were going for election and the elected people,
00:21:37and a lot of them just don't understand the industrial relations system.
00:21:42So you have to explain that to them.
00:21:44You have to, you know, take them on a bit of a journey.
00:21:46So a lot of them just don't.
00:21:48I mean, look, they're busy politicians.
00:21:50And, you know, I think the trade union movement in Ireland maybe needs to up its game in terms of
00:21:55how we engage with politicians.
00:21:58And I think that will change over the next few years.
00:22:02So a lot of them don't understand.
00:22:04It's not, no, some of them don't care.
00:22:06Let's be clear.
00:22:07Some of them simply don't care.
00:22:08Workers' issues, you know, some parties, workers' issues.
00:22:12Right wingers are right wingers and they are meant to be right wingers.
00:22:15That's fine.
00:22:16But by the leftists, it's a bit surprising that they don't have the basic kind of knowledge about what are
00:22:23unions for and where it came to be.
00:22:25But that leads to another question.
00:22:27How is it in Irish schools?
00:22:30Absolutely no mentioning of trade unions.
00:22:32You have at least some mention somewhere, you know, sometimes that something like this exists.
00:22:40And because, you know, this is always, as far as I know, nowhere in European Union is it part of
00:22:47the curriculum.
00:22:48Nowhere, which is kind of mega strange.
00:22:52You know, we can recite bullshit we will never use in our lives.
00:22:56But something that literally brought us eight-hour workday and vacation time and whatnot.
00:23:03People don't know that it didn't just fall from the sky.
00:23:07You know, capitalism gave it to us forever.
00:23:11Yeah.
00:23:12It's a good question.
00:23:13I mean, look, trade unionism is, so it's a very important part of our history and our fight for independence.
00:23:20Trade unionism was, the labor movement was key to that.
00:23:25So, for example, James Connolly, who, you know, is one of the, you know, one of the godfathers, if you
00:23:31like, of the Irish trade union movement.
00:23:34He was one of, he was part of the 1916 rising and was shot, was killed by the British.
00:23:43He was executed and tied to a chair, famously.
00:23:47So, like, that's a big, big and important part of our Irish history, not just for the trade union movement,
00:23:56but just, you know, for our fight for independence as well.
00:23:59So, these two things are very closely interlinked.
00:24:01Prior to 1916, we had the 1913 lockout, which, you know, every school, these are important parts of our history
00:24:08as per the curriculum that's taught in Irish schools.
00:24:10So, the 1913 lockout is famous for, and I suppose many would see it as the start of trade unionism
00:24:18in Ireland.
00:24:19That's kind of how it's seen.
00:24:21I mean, it obviously goes back much further than that.
00:24:23But for the purposes of the history books, the 1913 lockout is a pivoting.
00:24:30Well, it wasn't, I don't know the story.
00:24:31So, essentially, the Labour movement organised the tram workers in Dublin through Connolly and Lark.
00:24:43And essentially, there was a dispute and the forces of capital, William Murphy, who owned the trams and indeed the
00:24:54newspapers, took on Labour, locked out the striking workers.
00:25:00There were demonstrations in O'Connell Street in Dublin.
00:25:03People were killed.
00:25:05It was a massive lockout, a massive dispute.
00:25:08And, I mean, ultimately, you know, the capital won.
00:25:14You know, the striking workers were defeated in that moment.
00:25:18But I think it set the stage then for the growth of the trade union movement in Ireland too.
00:25:24The movement, you know, went on to be much, much stronger after that.
00:25:28And as I say, you went very quickly from 1913, the great lockout, to 1916.
00:25:34And then the role that James Connolly and, you know, the Irish Citizen Army played.
00:25:40The Irish Citizen Army was, if you like, you know, it's where workers trained and drilled as soldiers.
00:25:48There was a very clear vision that, you know, if we're going to reach an independent socialist Ireland, we need
00:25:54to be prepared to fight for that.
00:25:55And the Labour movement took that responsibility seriously and trained and drilled accordingly and played its part in the 1916
00:26:05Rising.
00:26:05And as I say, James Connolly along with other people paid the ultimate price for that.
00:26:11So that's well documented in Irish history books.
00:26:14And then there are, like, through some of the teaching unions that we have in Ireland, they're very invested in
00:26:20having those optional curriculum items available to kids in schools as well to learn about the modern trade union movement
00:26:27and the challenges that we face.
00:26:31And why trade unions are important in terms of whether it's, you know, workplace democracy or community in the workplace
00:26:37or, you know, fighting exploitation and protecting individual workers' rights and collective workers' rights.
00:26:43Those options are available.
00:26:44But I don't think they're compulsory currently in the Irish education system.
00:26:49Yeah, but still, then, then, at least on this front, you are better off than most countries, because when I
00:26:54talk with people from wherever, then it's usually not the case that trade unions are mentioned in history books.
00:27:02And, well, the omittance is kind of mega odd that something that important just doesn't exist.
00:27:10But we can recite whatever bullshit we learn in schools, so.
00:27:15Well, I mean, look, you gotta, I mean, Ireland is still a young country insofar as independent Ireland.
00:27:22We celebrated the centenary of the 1916 Rising and our independence subsequently, only recently.
00:27:32So, you know, that's, that's still, in relative terms, those chapters are very fresh in our memories, you know.
00:27:39I think that's why, among other reasons, as I mentioned earlier, why it's so, so important and so much still
00:27:46a part of our curriculum.
00:27:47And long may that last.
00:27:49Good.
00:27:50Another question I wanted to ask is about the structure of unions in Ireland.
00:27:55So how exactly is it set up, like, roughly, yeah, well, how big is the trade unionization?
00:28:01Because what I've seen when I'm talking with different people across Europe is that every country has its own kind
00:28:09of game, yeah?
00:28:11In some countries, it's mega centralized.
00:28:14In some countries, it's very dispersed.
00:28:17Really, you know, everywhere it's different.
00:28:20And I'm just kind of asking those questions because I want to see how the different approaches are elevating or
00:28:29moving or creating the momentum so that the trade unions is well received and it's growing.
00:28:34So, you know, enlighten us.
00:28:37What is the Irish situation like?
00:28:39You know, how is it divided?
00:28:41How big those unions are?
00:28:43You know, what's going on there?
00:28:44Because as an example, here in Austria, we have seven trade unions.
00:28:51When I was talking to guys in Scandinavia, in Finland or in Sweden, it was reaching 50 plus or even
00:29:0380, you know, like totally different way of doing things.
00:29:07So I'm curious, what is the Irish strategy on that front?
00:29:11Because in my mind, but that's me, come together and create strong unions makes sense.
00:29:17But somehow the Scandinavian model with this plethora of different unions seems to be working better.
00:29:24So, you know, it's very counterintuitive for me.
00:29:27So what are the Irish like?
00:29:32So I think we have in Ireland, I think we have the best part of 50 unions, I think now.
00:29:39OK, so more to the Scandinavian model.
00:29:42Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:43And I mean, bear in mind, as we just discussed earlier, Ireland is a small country.
00:29:47So the Finns are as small as you are and they have around 50 unions as well.
00:29:53So, you know, it's very similar.
00:29:56Yeah, I mean, look, so we operate, I mean, I guess, so we have our, we have, there's one Congress,
00:30:04one federation in Ireland, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.
00:30:07So that operates across the island of Ireland, north and south of the border.
00:30:14So we're, you know, it's, we have a united platform for the trade union movement on the island of Ireland.
00:30:21And within that, then, I mean, I can speak better about maybe the union movement in the Republic of Ireland.
00:30:28I mean, certainly there are, I guess it breaks up into two segments, if you like, public sector unions and
00:30:35private sector unions.
00:30:36And you've got some of those, one or two of the bigger unions that might operate in both camps.
00:30:43So, as I mentioned SIP2 earlier, that's the largest union on the island of Ireland.
00:30:47And they would represent both public and private workers.
00:30:54But then you've got unions like my own that I mentioned earlier, Mandate, FSU and a couple of others that
00:30:59really are only representing private sector workers.
00:31:02And then other unions, for example, FOSA, you know, the teaching unions, the nursing unions, they're largely public sector unions,
00:31:13albeit FOSA does have some private sector members too.
00:31:17And then it's kind of, you know, it's kind of sectionalized or, you know, broken out by work category.
00:31:26So, my own union would have grown out of the telecommunications, post and telecommunications, when it was all under government
00:31:35control.
00:31:36So, that's now obviously broken away.
00:31:38It's now largely privatized, liberalized.
00:31:41And in one case, there's a semi-state that still operates, albeit on a commercial basis.
00:31:47So, the communication...
00:31:49So, it used to be public, but now it's private because of the privatization, basically.
00:31:54Correct.
00:31:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:58So, that's how some unions have grown.
00:32:01You know, they've grown up in the public sector, but they've moved on from that now.
00:32:05And there's a couple of unions like that in the movement.
00:32:09So, look, it's in some cases, you know, like the teachers unions, they've all, you know, they're obviously, they've come
00:32:15out of the education sector.
00:32:16And you've got, at different levels within education, you've got different unions representing them.
00:32:21We have, you know, there's one big, large nurses union, albeit other unions represent nurses too.
00:32:29So, you know, it's kind of segmented by work area.
00:32:34With the exception of, as I say, some of the bigger, like CIP2 as a generalist trade union, they would
00:32:39represent a very broad, diverse group of workers.
00:32:45What about the penetration?
00:32:46Because from my experience, the blue-collar workers, for reasons we can talk about, are more eager to join the
00:32:55union than white-collar workers, usually.
00:32:58Yeah.
00:32:58So, what is your experience in Ireland?
00:33:01Because, and also, this is interesting that it kind of mirrors the economy.
00:33:07Yeah.
00:33:07Some economies are more blue-collar oriented than others.
00:33:11Good example is Germany.
00:33:12Highly competitive economy, but they have very big industrial sector.
00:33:17So, for those reasons, Ige Metal is bigger than Verdi.
00:33:21So, that's kind of outlier as well in different ways, because normally the third sector is, in most countries, much
00:33:29bigger than the second sector, the industrial sector.
00:33:32So, Germany is one of those exceptions.
00:33:34I don't know about the Irish situation.
00:33:36So, how is it spread out?
00:33:38So, agriculture is probably very small as everywhere in the West, but the industrial slash white-collar sector, how is
00:33:47it?
00:33:48So, I guess white-collar is bigger, but maybe I'm mistaken.
00:33:53Well, look, you're right about the agricultural sector.
00:33:56Yes, it's very, very low levels of union membership there.
00:34:02That would have been much, much higher, you know, decades ago.
00:34:08The unions that ultimately grew and became and coalesced into SIPTU would have represented large numbers of farm workers.
00:34:16Those numbers have obviously changed over the years as the economy has changed.
00:34:22But in terms of, like, managerial white-collar kind of work would be, I think, in the public sector would
00:34:31be quite strong still, but in the private sector, not so much.
00:34:35What does it mean, not so much?
00:34:37Like, 10-ish something or even less, more?
00:34:41Or, what is it, when the average is around 30%, 28%, so, you know, some sectors are stronger, has to
00:34:48be, no?
00:34:49Than the average, some are way below average, so.
00:34:52I think quite a bit below.
00:34:54I'll be honest with you, Michael, I don't have the numbers on that.
00:34:58Like, I can only speak to my own union's experience, really, when it comes to, you know, that differential.
00:35:03Like, we've got quite a few manager members in our union.
00:35:09We actively recruit them and organize them.
00:35:11And, obviously, a lot of them, like, we're, I think, very good at organizing in the places where we have
00:35:19collective bargaining.
00:35:20So, a lot of our manager members came in at entry-level positions and have been promoted and they've kept
00:35:25their union membership because they see the value of unionism.
00:35:30And, obviously, then, in the workplace, we try and encourage a culture where, you know, the very senior management teams,
00:35:38you know, have no issue with their own managers being in the communication workers' union.
00:35:44So, yeah, we've got strong manager members where we have.
00:35:48And, by the way, question, are this information disclosed?
00:35:51Because, I mean, many countries, it's kind of, you know, secret who's a member and who isn't.
00:35:56But, it depends, no?
00:35:57That's why I'm asking.
00:35:58Well, it's a good question.
00:36:00Unless you wave the flag, of course, when you are shouting that you are, oh, yeah, then everyone knows.
00:36:05But, you know.
00:36:06Well, in the two former, let's put it this way, the two main groups of workers, if you like,
00:36:13as in our postal workers, which are, they work in a company called OnPost, which was once upon a time,
00:36:20it was a government department.
00:36:21It's not anymore.
00:36:22It's a semi-state, commercially-run semi-state.
00:36:25So, we have a manager.
00:36:26We have a number of managers' branches in that company.
00:36:29So, the managers are, they join the branch, they're in the branch, they're active, they have an AGM, they sit
00:36:35across the negotiating table with the senior management team.
00:36:39So, they're not shy about being union members.
00:36:41And then, the other company in the telecom sector is called Air.
00:36:45And, again, that would have been, you know, a former department.
00:36:49And we have a manager's branch there as well, where those managers are not afraid to, you know, say, we're
00:36:55union members, we negotiate, we represent.
00:36:57But when you move out of those former public sector spaces, I think it's fair to say management membership, white
00:37:07collar membership drops off quite significantly, you know.
00:37:11But that reflects, again, the level of union density that we might have in other companies where, you know, they
00:37:18haven't grown out of the public sector.
00:37:20And it just reflects the difficulty unionizing and organizing workers in Ireland, where, you know, we have these legislative challenges
00:37:29to what we do.
00:37:30So, how do you see the future?
00:37:32You know, we were talking about all the initiatives that are coming from European Union.
00:37:38And some of them might be the winds into the flags of the union ship.
00:37:48So, yeah, predictions are hard to make.
00:37:52But, you know, there are feelings and, you know, gut feelings.
00:37:57So, how do you see it when you really break the spell of being maybe the only country in European
00:38:04Union not to be able to bargain freely whenever you want, when you achieve the position to do it?
00:38:13Just because, well, it is the way, it is the law.
00:38:16Well, one thing I was going to say to one of our previous questions about the attitudes to trade unions
00:38:20in Ireland is, I'm happy to say there is still a very strong appetite, particularly among young workers, to join
00:38:29unions and to be active within the trade union movement.
00:38:33So, despite our very, very weak worker protections and collective bargaining legislation or the absence of any real meaningful trade
00:38:41union recognition and collective bargaining legislation, that appetite is there.
00:38:47There is still enough, you know, people see the value and want to be.
00:38:50Talking about the youngsters and how they are joining the unions.
00:38:54And I wanted to ask how it came to be that the young people are so eager to, or more
00:39:00eager, it sounds, like the previous generation.
00:39:03I assume the economical situation isn't rosy.
00:39:08And the kind of, you know, salaries compared with the value of real estate just doesn't kind of match the
00:39:20situation.
00:39:21So, everyone who knows basic math understands that with this salary, I can pay this flat off in 760 years.
00:39:32So, maybe something should change.
00:39:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:38Yeah, well, you know, something should change.
00:39:41And I think young people see that.
00:39:42And I, yeah, to answer your question, I think that's partly why there is an appetite still, a very strong
00:39:48appetite among young people to join trade unions.
00:39:50The strongest you ever remember from your experience, like this, because this is, this is sadly the case that the
00:39:57Gen Z slash millennials in most Western European countries and best, I mean, not only Western Europe, but like best
00:40:05to the whole West, even in America and wherever, they are screwed.
00:40:10So, you know, unless they fight, there is not much hope in the future.
00:40:15I think in recent years, you know, it's picked up and it's, it's, it's to your point, you know, it's
00:40:22because young people now realize, you know, they're not going to enjoy a better future than their parents had.
00:40:27For the first time, the social contract has fundamentally failed them.
00:40:31It's broken.
00:40:33And, you know, any, any of the young people now that are paying attention, and so many of them are,
00:40:38thankfully, so many of them are engaged, you know, politically and, you know, through society and through economy, their own
00:40:45economy, they see, you know, they can see, you know, capitalism is what capitalism does.
00:40:52And they're been, in some cases robbed of their future, and that's before you even get into a conversation about
00:40:57the impact of, of AI.
00:41:00So, you know, I think they see, if you're going to fight for change, you need a vehicle to fight
00:41:05for change.
00:41:06And thankfully, a lot of young people still see the trade union movement, the labor movement as that vehicle for
00:41:12change.
00:41:13And to your point earlier, you know, you know, eight, the eight hour work day, the weekend, public holidays, you
00:41:21know, minimum wage, living wage, you know, equality in the workplace, worker protect, you know, etc, etc.
00:41:28You know, we still have a job as a as a movement to remind people, those were hard fought for
00:41:35gains for for workers across the country, and they were hard fought for by workers in unions who realized, we
00:41:44deserve a more, you know, a more equitable share of the resources and the profits that are made.
00:41:51And these things shouldn't be taken for granted, I think young workers now realize these things can't be taken for
00:41:58granted, because the contract, the social contract is, is as broken as it is for them, in terms of their
00:42:03ability to have a good job, have a decent wage, and afford a home.
00:42:08Certainly, the afford a home piece is in Ireland still fundamentally beyond the reach of so many young people.
00:42:15And as it is, the ability to earn a good salary in a decent job is always under threat.
00:42:23I mean, we're still like many other countries going through a cost of living crisis.
00:42:30Now, this leads to the question I wanted to ask about the political situation.
00:42:34Now, is there some sign of awakening that the people, mainly the young people are moving to the left,
00:42:42so that they cannot fix the problems that they are facing, or it goes, sadly, in some countries it does,
00:42:50goes to the other side of the political spectrum and radical right is gaining?
00:42:56Because I can tell you from my experience in Austria, and we are the worst country in European Union on
00:43:04this particular issue,
00:43:05that, yeah, the confusion is so big that people don't understand that this is self-sabotage in Austria,
00:43:12but that's another discussion with other people.
00:43:15So, how is the situation in Ireland?
00:43:18So, I hope that you are more rational, or your folks are more rational and don't support the oligarchy.
00:43:25But at least I fight for whatever, yeah?
00:43:28I am, look, I always try and be positive about these things.
00:43:33I think we are a little bit, like I obviously speak to my European colleagues and get a sense of
00:43:38what's going on in other countries,
00:43:40and then you read about, you know, what's going on across Europe and elsewhere as well.
00:43:44Ireland is not as far down the road, if you like, of that political shift to the right.
00:43:55But, you know, we're lucky in a way, that kind of nationalist right-wing fervour hasn't taken root to the
00:44:04same extent.
00:44:05Now, it's still a problem.
00:44:07Like, there is, there is still, there is a, there is still a right, hard right movement in Ireland.
00:44:13And there is, you know, there's plenty of political racism and stash fascism out there.
00:44:22But right now, thankfully, it's still kind of, it's still on the fringes.
00:44:26So, below what, 10% or 5% even, or where is it roughly?
00:44:32Oh, it's about, well, I'm just trying to think.
00:44:35I don't need the exact numbers, but, you know, just, I will shoot it here.
00:44:39Austria right now, 38%.
00:44:42So, almost 40% of Austrians would vote for FPL, which is the radical right party.
00:44:48So, we are the worst in all of European Union, because 40% is, well, a lot.
00:44:56So, what is it in Ireland?
00:44:58We don't have anything like that in Ireland, at this point in time, thankfully.
00:45:04No, no, no, I think, like, to define it as hard, right, that kind of, you know, that kind of
00:45:10neo-Nazi, fascist, right-wing, thankfully, there's nobody that has been elected to the Irish Parliament.
00:45:18Even that?
00:45:19Okay.
00:45:19So, they're outside the mainstream politics.
00:45:22Okay.
00:45:22And, no, there have been candidates, both for our Parliament and for the local councils.
00:45:30I think they've had a little bit more success, maybe not even as far right as that, but there has
00:45:35been some, there has been a clear shift to the right in terms of some of the local elections.
00:45:39We've had candidates who have had some success there.
00:45:43But, within the Parliament, there is a small political party.
00:45:48They've had a number of, they've had a number of people elected, but they're not hard right to that kind
00:45:55of fascist, that neo-Nazi fascist.
00:45:59They're not as far on the spectrum as that.
00:46:01Okay, so, so far you are immune.
00:46:03Enjoy it till it lasts.
00:46:06Yeah, well, you know, social media giants are doing the best to change and everything.
00:46:10Yeah, well, they are.
00:46:12Okay, so that's a good news, something I didn't know.
00:46:15So, how do you see the future then?
00:46:17So, next Parliament might move more to the left?
00:46:21Or, what is going on when you are kind of measuring the mood of the Irish populace?
00:46:29What is it now?
00:46:30We really have, so in Ireland, our political history is basically, there's two main political parties in Ireland.
00:46:37And depending on who you ask, or depending on what way the economic winds are blowing and the political winds
00:46:44are blowing, people will say those parties oscillate between being centre-right and centre-left.
00:46:50And they kind of, now, one of them would be defined probably more as centre-right.
00:46:55And the other party might see itself as centre-left, but I think a lot of people would say they're
00:47:00maybe centre-centre and possibly centre-right depending.
00:47:03So, I mean, look, without getting into the nitty-gritty of that, those are the two.
00:47:08Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are the names of the parties.
00:47:11And those parties, since Irish independence was achieved, have pretty much, you know, run the country.
00:47:17Occasionally, you'll get smaller, like we have proportional representation is the system that operates in Ireland.
00:47:27So, that does allow for coalition governments to emerge.
00:47:30So, we've had coalition governments, including the Labour Party, including the Green Party, including sort of a more right of
00:47:39the centre-right progressive Democrats party.
00:47:42They don't exist anymore, and some other coalitions of independent parliamentarians that have propped up various governments.
00:47:50So, we've never in Ireland really enjoyed a proper, for want of a better description, proper left government, you know.
00:47:58You know, a clearly defined Labour-led or Social Democrat-led or Sinn Féin is the other large political party
00:48:07that kind of, you know, would be centre-left as well.
00:48:12So, they've never, we've never had a government where those parties have been, you know, in charge.
00:48:16So, we've never really seen what could be achieved with that kind of a government in place.
00:48:23And, I mean, that's what probably needs to happen if we're going to change some of the legislative obstacles and
00:48:32barriers that exist in this country to, you know, proper worker protections, union access, collective bargaining, union recognition, and the
00:48:40removal effectively of the employer veto within the voluntary system that we have.
00:48:46So, coming back to one of your earlier questions, that's what needs to happen, I think, for meaningful change to
00:48:53happen within the Labour movement, we need to see.
00:48:55How possible is it and how probable is it, like, measuring the mood of the people?
00:49:02Look, it is both, it's possible.
00:49:06Is it probable?
00:49:07I mean, look, it's politics, you know.
00:49:11Like, right now, we're, I think we're two years into a five-year term of government or maybe a little
00:49:18bit longer.
00:49:18So, we're a little bit away from the next general election.
00:49:23So, certainly, I think there's an onus on the trade union movement, particularly the private sector unions.
00:49:31But I think we need the public sector unions to offer assistance and help and guidance through our Irish Congress
00:49:38of Trade Unions to be more active politically with those parties on the left, but not exclusively.
00:49:46I mean, I think all parties have an obligation to do more work for workers, and I think we need
00:49:51to focus on that to try and shift the political needle more to what's right, what's fair, and what's just
00:49:58for the trade union movement and for the workers and the members that we represent.
00:50:01Now, is it possible?
00:50:03Yes, it is possible.
00:50:04I mean, we're a small country.
00:50:08Our parliamentarians are very available to us.
00:50:11We're lucky in that way as a country.
00:50:12Like, we can easily access our TDs to meet with them, to discuss our issues with them, to lobby them.
00:50:20And I say lobby them.
00:50:22I don't mean in the kind of, you know, the multinational type of lobbying.
00:50:28This would be literally workers going in, meeting their local political representatives and having that conversation with them.
00:50:34And I think it is possible to set a clearly defined worker union agenda for the parties of the left
00:50:43to take into a potential program for government if they're successful in the next general election.
00:50:49Now, fingers crossed.
00:50:52This leads to another question I told you I want to discuss, and that's the Irish money laundering slash, however
00:51:00we want to call it, willingness to play along with the behemoths from primarily US, but not only.
00:51:09And there is some pushback from EU that, you know, this game took too long and the billions are kind
00:51:18of missing.
00:51:19So how would you see this particular elephant in the room in the whole Irish politics and the Irish strategy
00:51:28to allure the big money from wherever and do the money laundering?
00:51:35Now, it's not only you, it's Luxembourg as well, it's Malta, it's Cyprus, so, you know, there are different countries
00:51:46who like to play this game, but you are from Ireland.
00:51:50So how do you see your role in this whole endeavor?
00:51:54And how do you see the, or how to put it, what are average Irish people thinking about this deal
00:52:02with the devil?
00:52:03Because me as a leftist, I see as a problem, but, and I wouldn't, can I ask for the blood
00:52:09money, but that's me, yeah?
00:52:13And maybe the average Irish person is less finicky about where the money is coming from and, you know, how
00:52:18is the taxation scheme helping Ireland and so on.
00:52:23So, you know, what is the news on this front?
00:52:27That's a big question.
00:52:28Yeah, well, it's a complicated one, but it's a big question for us Europeans, because this is literally not billions,
00:52:35but trillions of euros in the long run.
00:52:38So, you know, no small deeds there.
00:52:41It's a lot.
00:52:43Yeah, it is a lot.
00:52:45I mean, look, Ireland...
00:52:47It's missing in Europe, you know, when you imagine that we wouldn't be doing this game, and we would be
00:52:51taxing those big giants as they should be taxed, then a lot of stuff could happen that today is just,
00:53:00you know, fairytale.
00:53:02It's a public transport or better schools or whatever.
00:53:07The money is there.
00:53:08It's just, you know, we are not taxing it away.
00:53:11Yeah, I agree.
00:53:13I mean, look, Ireland is a small, very small, very open economy, right?
00:53:19And look, as we touched on earlier, over the years, our governments have very aggressively gone out and sought foreign
00:53:29direct investment.
00:53:30And we made the decision a number of years ago to lower our corporate tax rate, you know.
00:53:36So that was a clear pitch to particularly, not exclusively, but particularly to the American, I mean, emerging.
00:53:44I mean, they weren't the tech companies then that they are now, but, you know, we were pitching for that
00:53:50business.
00:53:52By the way, what is it now?
00:53:5412 percentage points?
00:53:55Something like that?
00:53:57Well, I think...
00:53:58One, two?
00:53:58Yeah, yeah.
00:53:59No, officially it is 12, but I think with the OECD and the kind of legislative piece that's changed...
00:54:05No, they said at least 15, when I'm not mistaken, so you had to raise it a bit.
00:54:10Okay, okay.
00:54:11But yes, you're right.
00:54:13I think...
00:54:14But still you are at the total bottom of what's possible, still, yeah?
00:54:18Yeah, I think it's 12.5% is what the OECD tax rate is, or was certainly prior to those
00:54:25changes that were brought about.
00:54:28I mean, look, our economy, like, we have to measure our economy in two different ways because of the effect
00:54:36of, you know, the...
00:54:38Yeah, the overblown sort of GDP and then the real one.
00:54:42Yeah, exactly.
00:54:43So we have our GDP and then we have our real GDP, and I know, you know, you know, the
00:54:49phrase leprechaun economics is used.
00:54:51I mean, that's not entirely unfair.
00:54:55I mean, it's a little bit offensive maybe, but, you know, we do, in fact, have two economies in this
00:55:02country.
00:55:02And as we talked about earlier, that doesn't just affect the economics of the country.
00:55:09I mean, look, we reap the benefits of, Matt, we've huge corporate tax income in this country.
00:55:17Like, we are enjoying services at the moment to the tune of billions, thanks to these companies that have come
00:55:24to Ireland and do business in Ireland.
00:55:26And employ a lot of people here and pay.
00:55:30In some cases, you know, we can talk about some of the tech workers that are very, very badly exploited
00:55:38through the subcontracting model that these companies employ.
00:55:41But if you look at, for example, the pharmaceutical sectors, a lot of very well-paid jobs, a lot of,
00:55:47you know, a lot of taxes being paid by the workers that benefit from those well-paid jobs.
00:55:52So it's a decision that our governments over the years have taken to attract that, I think, to some degree,
00:56:00at the cost of our own indigenous industries and our sectors.
00:56:03Like, we haven't developed an indigenous industrial base.
00:56:07Well, not so much an industrial base because our economy is maybe not designed that way.
00:56:13But certainly there's lots of natural talent in Ireland that hasn't benefited from the kind of encouragement and investment maybe
00:56:22that these foreign direct investment beneficiaries have come.
00:56:25And obviously, not only do they come here and pay low corporate tax, they're actually sometimes encouraged here with financial
00:56:32incentives to come here.
00:56:33And some of those companies do pay, you know, they offer very good jobs and they pay very good salaries.
00:56:40But a lot of them don't. A lot of them come here and they don't pay good wages and their
00:56:45model is just, you know, complete exploitation and cheap by Java capitalism and, you know, high-churn workforces.
00:56:55And that has an effect on our politics, there's an effect on our culture, and it has an effect on
00:56:59our economy as well.
00:57:03So, I don't, but to your point about, you know, you described it as money laundering, it's a big, it's
00:57:08a, it's a, it's a big problem.
00:57:10Like, Ireland is benefiting.
00:57:12Yeah, but that's the conundrum in the whole thing that I totally understand Irish position, no?
00:57:18That for you, it's more good than bad, but for the rest of Europe is more bad than good.
00:57:25So, and in the end, you know, when we look at it as a European Union and not European disunion,
00:57:31no?
00:57:32Then the money is missing everywhere and even you in Ireland, because I guess your primary partners in trade are
00:57:41other European countries, no?
00:57:44That this is the, this is the sad part of the thing when you will look at it holistically,
00:57:47not from the view of one particular country, the money that is lost and all the investment that is lost
00:57:56because of that,
00:57:57that's just kind of hindering the development of the whole continent.
00:58:01So, you know, that's why it's devil bargain.
00:58:04That's why the situation for you is so complicated because, well, but this is what I was asking.
00:58:11What is the average Irish person thinking about it?
00:58:14Are they pro, are they contra, are they, some, some questions are really complicated to answer, but, you know, people
00:58:22have opinions.
00:58:23So, I would say the average Irish person would be very much pro.
00:58:28I mean, you know, you got to bear in mind, the companies that come here and operate here are very
00:58:36large, very powerful, very wealthy.
00:58:40We have an American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland that is also very powerful, very influential.
00:58:47We have a naturally pro-capital, you know, history and governments over the years that are very, very keen to
00:58:57be seen to facilitate foreign direct investment and the capitalist class.
00:59:03So, you take all of those elements combined and then you've got to, you know, in the media, you know,
00:59:08they get more than a fair share of coverage.
00:59:11I mean, if a trade union report comes out, we're lucky to get a mention in the media.
00:59:19I was listening to a report yesterday about a consulting company that's announced that Ireland should set up an investment
00:59:27fund for AI and also at the same time freeze the minimum wage and, you know, stop introducing worker-based
00:59:35benefits.
00:59:37It's got lots of coverage, you know, so like, and I mean, I don't think Ireland is unique in that
00:59:42regard.
00:59:43I think a lot of European countries probably suffer the same ailment, but so all of that combined, the average
00:59:49person in the street is going to say, yes, of course, Ireland, you know, should keep it.
00:59:54People understand that in the long run, we are kind of self-sabotaging our whole continent with this approach, that
01:00:02the benefits of small country shouldn't outweigh the negativities on 400 million other people.
01:00:09So, is this discussion framed in that way that, yeah, maybe what, 7 million Irish benefiting and 440 million other
01:00:20Europeans are losing?
01:00:22So, yeah, I don't know.
01:00:24I'm a leftist.
01:00:25I can take it.
01:00:26I can say that.
01:00:27This is not cool.
01:00:29I wouldn't be proud, you know.
01:00:31The average Irish person does not, would not think that way, no.
01:00:36I mean, I mean, yeah, but that's the sad truth.
01:00:40That's what these money laundry schemes are, not only for Ireland, for the Luxembourgians and Cyprus and whatnot as well,
01:00:47but in the end, it's just literally trillions that are lost from Europe.
01:00:51I mean, you have to bear in mind, you see, like in terms of trying to understand where, let's say,
01:00:58the average Irish person, and I'm not sure what the average Irish person is, but like we were colonized up
01:01:03until, you know, we were a colony for 800 years.
01:01:05We suffered all of that, and we finally got our independence, as I said, not that long ago, and we
01:01:14were a very, very poor country for a very long time when we achieved independence.
01:01:20And there would be perhaps maybe a thought process around this that would say, look, we deserve this, you know.
01:01:28Ireland was literally fighting for its survival.
01:01:31Little bit of goodies, yeah.
01:01:33Never mind where they are coming from.
01:01:35I mean, when we achieved independence, we became a very, I think, insular economy.
01:01:39We wanted to kind of look in, not look out, and then we changed, that attitude changed over the years,
01:01:47and obviously then we joined, as it was then, the EEC, and that gave us access to vital European funding.
01:01:53And we were, like Ireland, there was a time we were touted as an economic miracle within the European Union.
01:02:01Like, look at what we did for Ireland, we changed them from a poor backwater on the edge of Europe
01:02:07to, you know, this industrial powerhouse.
01:02:10That's true on the face of it, but it was done with a bit of, you know, those different economic
01:02:18levers we pulled.
01:02:19One of them being the tax lever, and I think now people are, you're quite right, and if I was
01:02:27in another European country, I'd be looking at what Ireland has achieved, and the cost of what we've achieved, to
01:02:34the rest of our European partners.
01:02:36And the fact is, yes, Ireland has facilitated an economic success story, but it's done on the back of some
01:02:45companies who've taken full advantage of the way our taxation system has been set up over the years.
01:02:51There was the famous double Irish, don't ask me to explain it, because I'm not an economist, but I try
01:02:58to explain it, but certainly the double Irish was a kind of a tax loophole,
01:03:02where, you know, these big multinationals could funnel money through their Irish, in some cases, they would just be brass
01:03:09plate companies.
01:03:10They wouldn't even be a real company, they'd be a shell company, and they'd avoid almost entirely paying any tax.
01:03:17So, yeah, Ireland is an economic success to some degree on the back of the cost of taxes.
01:03:23C'est la vie, but now I have maybe the last question.
01:03:27How did Trump kind of change the dynamic of acceptance of these deals?
01:03:34Because, well, many of those companies, mainly in IT, used to be democratic, in the democratic part of the divide,
01:03:44Republicans and Democrats.
01:03:47And for the last couple of years, they switched to the Republican Party, Facebook, Google, you name it.
01:03:54And, well, now they are in bed with Donald Trump, the orange goblin, as some of them are calling him.
01:04:05And this might change the dynamic of acceptance of those deals, because now these companies are screaming out loud that
01:04:14they want to exploit workers
01:04:16and just sacrifice them on the altar of whatever, you know, artificial intelligence for, what is his name, this German
01:04:26-sounding fella
01:04:29who's running together with Elon Musk, PayPal, Peter Thiel, one of the crazies, you know, who's talking about Antichrist and
01:04:41whatnot.
01:04:43So, those guys, I don't know, I just, I would, I don't want to be friends with those people.
01:04:49So, what is the, you know, temperature right here, right now in Ireland?
01:04:55Is it changing?
01:04:56Because, you know, when the company starts to behave really with questionable ethics,
01:05:02and I don't know whether the media is talking about it in Ireland, but what's going on?
01:05:08Talking about which, Michael?
01:05:10Not Google, Facebook, Apple, I don't know, Amazon, all the big ones, as far as I know, have the headquarters
01:05:21in Ireland,
01:05:22not only one or two, and as they switch the political labels, as they kind of openly are supporting Trump
01:05:30and all the policies that are happening, exactly as you were saying, in a populace that is relatively left-leaning,
01:05:36and the young people are relatively anti-capitalism, I imagine that it's kind of not, you know, liked very much,
01:05:46that this is really the bargain that we struck.
01:05:50In the past, it was kind of acceptable, but as they are moving to the right and more into fascistic
01:05:57kind of ways,
01:05:59then the acceptance, I imagine, is going down, I don't know, that's why I'm asking,
01:06:04because the last two years were crazy, you know, one and a half years or what.
01:06:08When you see the images and the shooting and the kidnapping and everything in America,
01:06:15then the normal, healthy human being is probably not like, yeah, I want this at home, the more the better.
01:06:23Here, let's beat each other over bullshit, yeah, and shoot each other out.
01:06:29Look, I think in terms of, if I understand your question correctly, I mean, the effect of Trumpism,
01:06:36Trump himself and Trumpism on those big multinationals, the likes of Google Alphabet, Meta, Facebook,
01:06:48like, I think Ireland slash Europe has been a little bit insulated from that in terms of, like, let's take
01:06:54the DEI piece, right?
01:06:55So that has had an impact, but it's been limited enough, I think.
01:06:59I mean, I have had conversations with some workers who would say,
01:07:03ah, they've seen a little bit of a shift internally, but it hasn't been that much.
01:07:08Albeit I did have one conversation with one worker who really, you know, was a member of the LGBT,
01:07:19you know, was a member of the queer community and basically was very involved in some of the initiatives within
01:07:28Google, effectively,
01:07:29and found that the funding for those projects, if you like, was withdrawn, and that was on the back of
01:07:35Trump.
01:07:37So it has had an impact, it has had an effect on, and a very direct one for some of
01:07:45those groups of workers.
01:07:48But it seems to have been confined to those groups of workers who were kind of activists, nearly, you know,
01:07:55campaigning within the workplace.
01:07:57And I think, and I don't have a lot of evidence to back this up, if I'm honest, because, you
01:08:02know,
01:08:03our levels of trade union membership within these companies isn't as high as I'd like it to be,
01:08:09for all of the reasons I've said already.
01:08:11I think you'd get a better sense of it across your European, our European partners,
01:08:17where these, there are more members in these companies.
01:08:20They'd have a better sense of the impact of that Trumpism on the DEI stuff.
01:08:24But certainly, we've seen it.
01:08:28I guess, for me, the impact really is,
01:08:32there's just a kind of an aggression in how these companies operate now.
01:08:37It's always been the case that American companies that have operated in Ireland,
01:08:42some of them will bring in that sort of legal minimum requirement attitude.
01:08:47So, in my experience dealing with the American, certainly the American tech companies,
01:08:53some of them will operate only to the minimum legal threshold.
01:09:00So, once they're legally compliant, that's all they concern themselves with.
01:09:04To give you an example of what I mean by that,
01:09:06if you're making workers redundant in Ireland,
01:09:10there's a very low legal minimum payment that you have to make.
01:09:13Most companies in Ireland don't only make the legal minimum.
01:09:19What is it, like one month's salary and you are gone after 20 years, something like that?
01:09:24We pay, if you've got more than two years service,
01:09:28you get paid two weeks per year of service.
01:09:32So, if you've less than two years service, if you're made redundant, you're entitled to nothing legally.
01:09:38So, we recently went through a redundancy with one of the contracting companies to Meta,
01:09:45and we were assuming on the instruction of Meta,
01:09:48they were told just adhere to the law.
01:09:51So, this company let hundreds of people go that didn't have two years service,
01:09:55and they got no money, they got no payment.
01:09:57Now, most companies wouldn't do that.
01:09:59Most Irish companies, most European companies wouldn't do that.
01:10:03They'd make some, you know, they'd come to some agreement,
01:10:05either with the union involved or with the employee reps,
01:10:08if it was a collective redundancy that had been elected to represent their colleagues,
01:10:12and that would, you know, generate some minimum payment.
01:10:17But we've seen that aggression shift, that more...
01:10:22Okay, question towards this.
01:10:24Was it the case in the past as well, or they just kind of became more aggressive in this particular
01:10:31approach?
01:10:33No, I think it has become more aggressive.
01:10:36Okay, okay.
01:10:36Yeah.
01:10:37You know, and I'm saying that kind of anecdotally.
01:10:40I'm not...
01:10:40I don't have stats to back that up, but certainly, I mean, I've been dealing with...
01:10:45Yeah, but you are swimming in those waters for a couple of years, so you have seen things, so...
01:10:49Over 20 years experience dealing with American companies, I do see a shift in their attitudes.
01:10:56You know, it's probably, you know, a function of the fact that they're emboldened now under a Trump administration in
01:11:04America,
01:11:05that their senior management teams in America, in the States, in California, wherever they are,
01:11:09are setting a tone, a cultural tone, and that's been transmitted into Ireland and probably into Europe.
01:11:16Everywhere else, no?
01:11:17You know, when I speak with folks from wherever, then I hear similar stories, not different stories.
01:11:24So, this is it.
01:11:26This is the sad part of capitalism.
01:11:28So, anyway, so I wanted to run it for one and a half hours, roughly.
01:11:31So, here we are at the end.
01:11:34And, well, what can I tell you?
01:11:36Thank you very much for the insight.
01:11:38The Irish situation is interesting, and I would say and hope to be continued, you know,
01:11:44in a couple of months, years, whatever, you know, when we, again,
01:11:48kind of something interesting happens in Ireland, we can chit-chat about the situation.
01:11:53So, thank you very much.
01:11:54Very welcome.
01:11:55Thanks, Michael.
01:11:56Thanks.
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