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00:00:15hello everybody here is michael from new left and today we'll be talking about one of the hottest
00:00:23topics on the agenda of everyone more or less in it and and not also in it and that's the
00:00:31answer of
00:00:32the unions to the challenge of artificial intelligence and robotization and i'm very
00:00:39lucky that i know daniel who was already a interviewee uh but uh he was in a in a conference
00:00:49in oslo and uh about this topic and he will so like i mean lucky us that he will share
00:00:57his
00:00:57kind of what he learned and his thoughts and everything about ai so daniel will come back
00:01:04thank you very much thank you okay my pleasure so just just for the for the newbies uh can you
00:01:13please
00:01:13introduce yourself because uh not everyone has seen the previous interview yes thank you i'm daniel
00:01:20valtakari i come from finland from the finnish trade union representing uh graduate engineers and
00:01:27architects or academic engineers and architects and i'm working uh half of my work with
00:01:36uh universities and universities of applied science in finland and the other part of my work is
00:01:42international work i work with uh federations such as industrial and uni and uh currently i am also the
00:01:52uni global professionals and managers group president thank you thank you so let's jump into it so
00:02:01you know what was discussed what was the mood was everyone crying
00:02:08only occasionally we had a absolutely fabulous uh conference we were invited to oslo that was
00:02:17on uh february the 20th for one day a seminar we call it the nordic ai summit it's organized but
00:02:26by
00:02:27some of the norwegian trade unions and uh this was my second time i was a year ago as well
00:02:36there and
00:02:37this time i was also invited to be part of the panel discussing um the relation between um artificial
00:02:46intelligence and the trade unions what should for example be done uh to strengthen our position
00:02:53as uh representing the employees but it was really really one of the best um i have uh participated at
00:03:03well organized the topic and the speakers were really something that we need to discuss today and uh we had
00:03:13uh
00:03:13from uh one side to the other side as we stand here in finland and everything in between uh we
00:03:22had uh
00:03:23great uh great uh speakers um actually when you say about crying it was not far away because uh we
00:03:31also
00:03:31could see and hear about um artificial intelligence being used in modern weapons so that's not something
00:03:41that uh is funny uh it's really destructive and uh it was amazing to see already now how
00:03:51how serious that is and uh what happens to people and what machines can do and especially machines with uh
00:04:02guided by artificial intelligence so i i hope that uh that's not a future that we are going to to
00:04:10face i
00:04:11mean not like the terminator movies and skynet because this was not far away from that and i'm not joking
00:04:18i'm just
00:04:18comparing so you can i have seen it the listeners can visualize that what it is about it it's actually
00:04:26yeah i i think even those videos can be found on youtube not sure but i i believe they can
00:04:33be found
00:04:33there but i don't have the names no but the good side the good side was uh the positive that
00:04:41um there is
00:04:42so much uh positive that can be done uh with and by artificial intelligence to
00:04:49ease on our daily life uh sorry to jump in just for clarification it was only artificial intelligence
00:04:57or it was robots as well so you put it only one no robots no robots only ai okay so
00:05:03only white color work
00:05:04basically yeah uh basically but uh ai i i mean of the trade unions we had also uh others than
00:05:13just uh
00:05:14white colors represented or in the seminar or the conference um because ai it doesn't make
00:05:23difference whether you are blue color white color or or even manage little bits yeah but robots
00:05:28take robots and and and and yeah ai is just but for example yeah but for example
00:05:40systems that monitor we talk about algorithmic management we we have those systems both for blue
00:05:48color workers as well as white color workers they might be different but we still have them
00:05:53uh and also i mean algorithmic management is something that a lot of people are familiar with uh it's
00:06:03different you can have an artificial intelligence in an algorithmic management system but you can also do
00:06:09without so uh it's very important to keep them as concepts apart and uh and not mix them uh we
00:06:21have for
00:06:21example for platform workers we have for warehouse workers um when they run with something small in their hand
00:06:30and and from one shelf to the other shelf um that's uh both algorithmic management telling that how many
00:06:39packages per minute or per hour they need to bring from one place to another but also uh artificial
00:06:46intelligence more and more calculating what is the right distance you don't take the packages just by
00:06:53numbers but you also minimize the distance you have to uh move so that you can save a lot of
00:06:58time
00:06:59uh in the office with the white color workers uh there are monitoring systems that count how many clicks
00:07:07you make on your computer uh keyboard and how many emails you send how many phone calls you you answer
00:07:15to
00:07:16and and so on and uh here when we bring the algorithmic manage uh sorry the artificial intelligence
00:07:22uh it can even listen in to uh discussions it can read to meetings and see that have you actually
00:07:32been doing what you should be doing according to what has been uh defined for the artificial intelligence so
00:07:40uh it's serious business serious orwellian stuff it is yeah yeah imagine imagine if orwell had had
00:07:50access to what we know today about artificial intelligence what kind of book he would have written
00:07:56yeah yeah uh and uh like in the book 1984 there's no place to hide i mean some people they
00:08:04imagine that
00:08:05okay i'm not going to use a bank card and i'm switching off my uh cookies from the computer and
00:08:13basically it's if you feel better it's good but you cannot hide yeah well this is this is the state
00:08:20of
00:08:21the affairs but let's talk about the possible solutions because what you you were explicitly saying
00:08:28this is not about robots but what you were describing in my mind immediately was like they are making
00:08:33people to robots because when you don't have any free thoughts when you are just a machine basically
00:08:39that is guided by some other machine yeah and you can't even peace because uh toilet break are just
00:08:47not very efficient yeah so this is totally let me be humanizing and then you are just on a machine
00:08:54yeah let me take a sidestep before we go back to the ai summit in oslo uh last year i
00:09:01wrote a paper
00:09:02for um a bulgarian trade union federation about the artificial intelligence as a independent manager
00:09:12and this is uh something that about what you just mentioned um i don't say if or if it is
00:09:21or if it is
00:09:22not dehumanizing but it's absolutely different when you have an artificial intelligence that becomes your
00:09:30manager manager manager and please note not the management tool but really you have a manager that
00:09:37exists on a computer and that makes calculations and evaluations what you should do what your colleagues
00:09:46should do so that the overall efficiency and profits of the workplace the company for example will
00:09:55be maximized and it i make a claim that it's actually not even the same as you making your best
00:10:02for
00:10:03your own interest you can even uh in some cases i believe lose in bonuses for example because you could
00:10:12do
00:10:12something that you would personally profit from but the artificial intelligence can decide that this is not
00:10:20the best solution for the best solution for the team or for the company and instead you should be doing
00:10:25something else you lose on your bonus the company makes a bigger profit this is in in short uh what
00:10:35we spoke
00:10:36about at the uh ai summit in oslo and uh at the panel where i participated was also about uh
00:10:45what we should do
00:10:47wait for legislation or or just uh give up uh i believe in legislation both european level as well as
00:10:56uh national level but i also believe before we go into that uh you you had only trade unionists from
00:11:03europe there or were there some americans because you know that's kind of mixing the cards because americans
00:11:09are kind of pushing the envelope on this technology primarily from what i gather so only only scandinavians okay okay
00:11:16yes this was for scandinavian trade unions for yeah but you know out of curiosity what the americans
00:11:23struggle with because they are the first one to kind of get hit by all these uh positive changes
00:11:31let's come back to that because you are right here as well and um i think they don't have the
00:11:38legislation that we have in european union be the companies are basically primarily stated from united states
00:11:45we don't talk about china that's a different completely but in our western hemisphere americans
00:11:52will be the first to suffer so that's why i thought that maybe you invited someone from from from the
00:11:58states or not you but the no regions so that's they were they were not in there is an exchange
00:12:03all the
00:12:04speak all the speakers were scandinavians more or less uh when i say less i mean some of us
00:12:12uh are not only scandinavian but we also have ancestors in other countries but at least somebody
00:12:18now nowadays who doesn't no yeah uh but anyway um i i personally brought up that um it's really
00:12:27important that we have a strong collective bargaining because we need to have in the collective bargaining
00:12:35agreements about artificial intelligence we need to agree with the employer because if we are waiting
00:12:43for the legislation the ai is developing with such a speed at the moment that um when we have some
00:12:51legislation it will be outdated then we will have already something new not to mention that uh it also would
00:12:59mean that uh while we are waiting for the legislation we would also already have some practices that would
00:13:07be really difficult to uh get rid with because companies would say that ah but you make legislation and we
00:13:14have been using this for three years uh it's not possible then we have to move the company somewhere
00:13:20else uh and then collective bargaining first legislation second that's like that's the approach that you
00:13:27agreed yes okay uh well that was my claim not that okay okay so i misunderstood okay okay yeah and
00:13:35um
00:13:36i made a claim because uh collective bargaining you can sit down today you don't have to wait for for
00:13:43something and also after successful collective bargaining uh you can go to the legislator to the
00:13:50parliament and uh and you can say that look guys we already have this in collective bargaining why don't
00:13:56you put it in the legislation you don't need to invent it again so the others agreed or or i
00:14:03believe
00:14:03they agree yeah no no i i didn't feel like got any pushback i i believe they they agree on
00:14:10on on this and
00:14:11uh um it is something that on european level our uh federations and affiliated uh trade unions they
00:14:20also speak for uh including ai in the collective bargaining but of course different countries and
00:14:28different trade unions do it in a different way but it should be there and and uh which uh it
00:14:35also means
00:14:36that the people who are negotiating the collective bargaining agreements they they should have at
00:14:43least sufficient knowledge about ai and that's a challenge uh even if we feel that okay we have had
00:14:51ai like chat gpt and other programs for already a few years it's not the same as really understanding
00:15:00what you should negotiate about in the collective bargaining process so uh more knowledge to the
00:15:07people who are representing employees more knowledge to the employee representatives at the workplace level
00:15:16because also a lot of uh negotiations happen at the workplace level and they should be able to
00:15:22understand what it is about so that they are not uh fooled sorry for the expression they're not
00:15:29useful to do something that uh that they will regret afterwards not knowledge is power no no just
00:15:38we are absolutely and especially here and here it's like twice underlined so okay so they agreed and uh
00:15:47other kind of things that you took out of the discussions and out of the seminar and everything that is
00:15:53worth mentioning
00:15:55uh the enormous speed of how things develop and give us a few examples and how um
00:16:04the pro it's difficult for me to get give uh precise examples except for the war machines that we saw
00:16:13on
00:16:13on videos um and i absolutely want to make a point i don't like that but but it's a reality
00:16:21somebody has made them
00:16:24uh but um that's that's that's the funny part maybe the robots will be fighting each other and we will
00:16:30just watch it like a video game but i don't think that that's where they are kind of going with
00:16:34this
00:16:36uh you are right michael uh that's actually what's happening it it's um in uh different places in war
00:16:45zones we already have uh machines that are looking for for other machines drones and such that are
00:16:53uh attacking and then they have automatic responses and and so we we basically already have machines
00:17:01uh attacking machines and uh there are robot dogs and robot warriors actually so not anymore in in the
00:17:12terminator movies but really on the ground in in test phases at least that's what i understood when i was
00:17:19listening to people with much more information about these things uh but then how ai uh develops is we
00:17:28have probably most of us seeing for example fake photos fake news fake videos they become all the time
00:17:37better and better so it's practically impossible for ordinary people just by watching something to
00:17:44understand is it real or not that will change uh politics it will change society uh people will
00:17:51probably have less confidence in what they see uh you remember the saying that i heard people talk
00:17:59about it and what they said is that maybe this will be good development because then people will go
00:18:04to the reliable sources you know you will not just not believe everyone on the internet because after a
00:18:10while you see that it's bullshit and nowadays the bullshit can be differentiated from the truth
00:18:16so you just go to guardian or whatever because there are the gatekeepers of bullshit or should be no yeah
00:18:25and um i also mentioned the following and and as background i'm an engineer so very often i think as
00:18:33an
00:18:33engineer uh and i said that uh if we believe that uh artificial intelligence today with today's computers
00:18:44are fast and powerful imagine when we get the new generations of uh computers that are still under
00:18:53development and we put ai on those i what kind of chance can we stand as as human beings then
00:19:02they will be much more clever much faster than we are uh before we have said the question they
00:19:09have already explored all the possible answers to that question so uh we are facing a good thing
00:19:15that's evolution that's just it's evolution yeah the big philosophical question that's something i wanted
00:19:21to discuss with you as well but let's let's uh postpone that discussion so you know just so except for
00:19:29what you already said that the strategy should be sounds like first the collective bargaining on the
00:19:35company level or some sector level and only after that the uh judiciary and whatnot uh what else stuck in
00:19:45your mind that should be the approach and and i mean the because in my humble opinion what we should
00:19:52strive
00:19:53for this is the biggest challenge but also the biggest possibility because work as such should be
00:20:02renegotiated and the approach to work and and the philosophy of work and i just put some something into the
00:20:10discussion literally today when i was kind of walking here i was listening to the head of the spd which
00:20:18is the
00:20:18party that is in uh in power in germany so as politicians go he's not exactly the least
00:20:25important fella in european union and he was talking that germans should work more not less more so and
00:20:33he's a supposedly social democrat so i was like what the fuck like why why we have we have for
00:20:42i don't
00:20:42know hundred years eight hour work day and and instead of discussing the shorter work days and uh less
00:20:50hours this fella and he was a social demo he's a social democrat said we should work more or the
00:20:56germans
00:20:57should work more so what was discussed on that front uh we didn't discuss working hours and um
00:21:06i will now move from oslo to more european level because uh on the european level there has been much
00:21:13more discussions already um about the uh sorry to jump in i'm surprised because this is the biggest
00:21:23opportunity for unions this artificial intelligence when you play the game right yeah so i i was totally
00:21:29expecting that you will be discussing working hours and the possibilities there because the productivity
00:21:35is just crazy you know like i i will come to that i will come to that okay and uh
00:21:41please note i'm in
00:21:42favor of ai but uh in uh used in the right way no but that's my take as well if
00:21:50if he plays again the
00:21:52cards right and it will be the biggest improvement on our lives in the history of might be yeah in
00:21:58the
00:21:58history of mankind so why the heck not yeah and uh even if we speak that we are going to
00:22:05lose a lot of
00:22:05workplaces but at the same time uh new workplaces will be created uh then uh even if not work is
00:22:13not
00:22:13the problem work shouldn't be the discussion the wealth distribution should be the discussion we
00:22:18we generate all the wealth and who's benefiting that should be the discussion uh well now i'll take that
00:22:25one um good and there have been a discussion among unions and and uh with my colleagues on european
00:22:35level that uh ai brings more efficiency and then how will be the profit distributed and um
00:22:47who says that there will be a profit to to distribute and i will explain this uh imagine that we
00:22:55have
00:22:57two companies with 10 people each and uh they they produce 100 pieces of uh product
00:23:05whatever the product is so 10 people the company makes 100 pieces and they sell it for like one
00:23:14euro a piece so they make a profit uh of um well let's say they make a profit of one
00:23:20euro a piece so
00:23:21that's 100 euros then the other company decides that wow we can take artificial intelligence and instead
00:23:27of 100 pieces we are going to make 500 pieces so um and they can still charge the one euro
00:23:35per piece so
00:23:37now the profit really goes up that that's absolutely clear so they make 400 euros more than the other
00:23:43company so the other company sees that uh all right um we also take artificial intelligence and uh we also
00:23:55start making more of the products but then uh we are um saturating the market so there is no demand
00:24:04for
00:24:05two times 500 pieces because initially there was only a demand for two times 100 pieces so from 200 pieces
00:24:13production is up to 1000 and then usually it means that prices drop so we have a company or two
00:24:23companies
00:24:24with 10 people employed with artificial intelligence but the price per product is not anymore one euro it's
00:24:32probably 10 cents and uh the work is more efficient uh we can produce much more but we don't make
00:24:41a bigger
00:24:42profit and uh and this is an issue that we need to talk much more about so uh and especially
00:24:51considering
00:24:51and you mentioned the us and the regulation that in europe we have regulation and we can regulate as much
00:24:59as we want but we are not living in a vacuum or isolated from the rest of the globe so
00:25:06it means that if we
00:25:08regulate too much uh there is a risk that some companies whether they are developing ai or they are using
00:25:19ai
00:25:19in production in manufacturing or or any other processes they might decide that europe is too restrictive
00:25:27and they can make better profits operating outside of europe and then it means that we will have less
00:25:33profit to share here so it is a balance we need to safeguard the rights of workers of human rights
00:25:45but at the same time if it means that we lose major players we lose big production we lose the
00:25:54uh research and development of uh again for example artificial intelligence then we are uh just
00:26:03outplaying ourselves so uh it's a very delicate balance and we need to be careful to make the best of
00:26:11it
00:26:11but not to lose it and uh i i don't think anyone has a straightforward solution to this one but
00:26:22it also leads
00:26:23us back to collective bargaining where employees directly and trade unions can tell employers and politicians
00:26:32what we need to have to safeguard people in in our societies in in uh our workplaces here in europe
00:26:41and
00:26:42then how we can together tackle the competition that comes from outside of europe whether it comes from
00:26:49the u.s or it comes from china doesn't matter but we have to face them and and they are
00:26:56also different
00:26:57in uh the the kind of uh progress in in the u.s it's about um this is how i
00:27:05have understood so please allow
00:27:07for any mistake misunderstanding but i have understood that in the u.s it's more like developing um
00:27:13um technologically better and better tools at the same time when we go to asia we have a different
00:27:23situation there it's more like we are using these tools for controlling to gather information about our
00:27:33citizens in the different countries what they do how they work and and so on
00:27:40uh no i guess the americans are doing that as well no uh probably everyone no probably everyone does
00:27:48who has maybe maybe the chinese just do it openly and the americans are doing it hush hush or no
00:27:54under
00:27:54the radar and pretend that they are not doing it but no we have seen what happened with uh open
00:28:00ai
00:28:00a few weeks back and an antropico they said that nah maybe no this is not the way to go
00:28:07but do you know
00:28:09what happened in finland just uh in in the past week uh tell me um in finland we had uh
00:28:16decided um
00:28:17for our government um i i mean not only the ministers but uh ministries and and all the government
00:28:25governing bodies had um um quite recently decided that we are going to add some of our actually very
00:28:36critical data to uh u.s cloud services okay we have been backtracking on that now this week
00:28:46that maybe we have some other solutions let's think about it once more
00:28:50uh and uh and uh and it's uh exactly because also what you indicate here um we don't really know
00:28:57what um what they are doing and uh you know probably and at least uh i'm aware of the case
00:29:04with uh this
00:29:06european justice whose email was blocked and access to his one drive just because somebody snapped
00:29:13his fingers and said that i'm the president and uh you shut this guy down and that's what happened
00:29:20so uh we are we are actually um now this is also a question i wanted to ask how you
00:29:27want to tackle
00:29:27the situation because it it's like the arms race in a different sphere or cultural arms race or
00:29:35technological arms race so you know as you said it yourself that uh it's a thin red line between being
00:29:42supportive of the workers and not to kill the industry so
00:29:48what what will be the approach of eu i mean my strong stance is that we should develop our own
00:29:55technological solutions to whatever we need no and not import it from china or from i mean
00:30:03if slovakia doesn't do it because we are too small well so be it but european union is
00:30:09fucking huge so it's it's a it's it's a lost lost opportunity that we have to buy it from americans
00:30:16a big chunk of it i mean when the when the russians were able to build their own technological solution
00:30:23that sure as hell can we we are just lazy i guess you know like it's italia to buy it
00:30:27and to develop it
00:30:29and we were too amort to americans and used to it that this this relationship will be only you know
00:30:36butterflies and roses and now the realities and and heart awakening but okay you know but let's build
00:30:45it ourselves you are an engineer so you know let's bring the ideas forward uh and i'm not i'm not
00:30:52laying any pressure on you man yeah it's not like you're done no no and uh i i believe that
00:30:59uh everyone
00:31:00watching us uh also have some ideas and we should respect those ideas we should listen to to people
00:31:06um as an engineer i would say that it's not a technical problem i mean you put some money and
00:31:14we have really smart brains in europe let them do it and they will they will do it uh it's
00:31:21more like an
00:31:22economical matter uh even cultural i would say that's the problem of european union we are too
00:31:29divided no yeah but let's start with the economical because if it is cheaper to buy something already
00:31:36whether it is from the us or china doesn't matter instead of putting a little bit of extra money
00:31:44that's the big if yeah cheaper what does it really mean because when you consider the externalities like
00:31:50suddenly we snap our fingers it's not working anymore because whatever then then as cheap goes this is
00:31:56exactly yes um we have uh i just compare we have this other kind of european legislation that uh if
00:32:06you
00:32:06uh purchase something big i mean like a municipality for example um you you have to uh give different
00:32:15companies the chance to compete about this and who wins usually the one with the lowest price
00:32:24and that lowest price is for the near future immediate future so for the next one to five years
00:32:32that is the the cheapest uh solution and this is how far uh politicians and uh
00:32:40administrative people and others they they look because then they can justify that we did as the
00:32:45legislation said and we chose the cheapest one but if you say that look after 10 years
00:32:51this school or hospital needs to operate or we have some uh computer systems and uh we we cannot all
00:33:01the
00:33:01time buy uh new applications to support it because that becomes really expensive so instead we should have
00:33:08uh life cycle um price on whatever we do including developing uh european alternatives artificial
00:33:18intelligence um cloud services everything but we should not look that what is the price when we purchase
00:33:26we should look that what is the price for society in the next 20 or 30 years that would be
00:33:32completely
00:33:33different no because i was i was listening to germans and the discussion about palantir because
00:33:39i don't know whether you heard that they are discussing it right now whether they they were running in
00:33:45in the test phase kind of for a couple of years in hessen i think and then another bundesland
00:33:50the the police was using palantir which is first thing it's nice or it's like it was obvious that
00:33:57they didn't want to use the name palantir so they renamed it and called it whatever some german
00:34:04bullshit so first indication something is shady and the other thing that stuck in me when i was
00:34:11listening to the discussion is that in the end it's not really that cheap because when when you consider
00:34:16what is the license how expensive it will be for the whole german government to to to buy it for
00:34:23all the
00:34:24all the what 16 or 70s bundesland are in germany so it was like hundreds of millions of euros so
00:34:30so
00:34:31those guys that are discussing the immediate for this money we can do it ourselves and we don't have to
00:34:36send our data to wherever and and this this fishy pseudo german fella from south africa kind of snapping
00:34:45his fingers on our policy investigations no yeah actually uh good that you mentioned germany because
00:34:53i recently read that there there is one part in germany where they actually have local legislation
00:35:01that they have to use local programs european or or german progress they are not allowed to use
00:35:09microsoft or or other foreign programs if they can do why why can't we copy it and then also uh
00:35:17if
00:35:18somebody has a working solution why does everyone else in europe need to start doing their own solutions
00:35:25just before we started with you today um i was reading uh news uh we uh had a couple of
00:35:34uh drones
00:35:37ukrainian drone drones on their way to to russia here on the other side of our border and they got
00:35:44lost
00:35:44and fell down in finland no injuries no harm but it's first paid news here and today we can read
00:35:52that
00:35:53the finnish government or the finnish authorities they are planning a system where we can then on the
00:36:02mobile phone we get a message that now we have some drones lost again or flying here in finland and
00:36:09that
00:36:09this program will be ready by 2027 end of the year at the same time in ukraine they have this
00:36:17already
00:36:17why don't we buy them why don't we buy from them and make just small adjustments so that it can
00:36:23fit
00:36:23the finnish ecosystem and that's it and now somebody will put again lots of money
00:36:30and uh that's what i said a few minutes take about this yeah 27 countries mindset and this cultural
00:36:38divide and americans have the upper hand because they all speak english 330 million people are kind of
00:36:45running in the same direction more or less no and we europeans we shoot ourselves in the foot because
00:36:51everyone wants to be you know national and and support our own industry we are not very good at
00:36:57practical thinking to kenna absolutely you're right about this uh and uh we we should become better
00:37:04in practical thinking we should cooperate and uh we can still have uh european level competition
00:37:13so that we don't just pay to one uh manufacturer or one uh researcher but but we could say that
00:37:21okay
00:37:21we want to have this or we want to have that make your offer and uh we'll choose somebody but
00:37:28it would be
00:37:28european only and uh it goes for everything for our infrastructure for our uh governments uh even for our
00:37:39military this is now two guys talking or this was kind of like under the you know current in oslo
00:37:46this
00:37:47was the uh no this was not this was uh not not just oslo i'm i'm talking now european levels
00:37:54i
00:37:54this discussion is ongoing and and people are kind of thinking in the direction that that is
00:38:00all the ways of buying american are probably over and uh let's build at least time at least i'm thinking
00:38:08this way i have spoken with some colleagues i feel that they they think like me that we should be
00:38:14more independent and we should be working more together on the european level but it's still a
00:38:20challenge and like you say 27 cultures and 27 opinions and those opinions change with every election
00:38:30so uh it it's not so easy there is constantly a movement inside of european union and uh if you
00:38:40think
00:38:41that the us they have uh 52 states so they actually have twice more than we have in in europe
00:38:49um but
00:38:51they don't have 52 that strong opinions of course they have the differences between the states but they
00:38:59they have managed to build actually quite a strong industry very strong industry um we have china
00:39:07and uh even being a very uh totalitarian uh regime uh but still there is space enough for uh new
00:39:18inventions mind you they are not in our favor but they are still technologically new inventions
00:39:24and um they make companies compete against each other as far as i have understood and uh and this
00:39:31way uh through that competition they bring something uh that is uh very strong you can see that in the
00:39:39electrical uh vehicle uh market for example that tesla was and has been and and is soon forgotten
00:39:48almost and we have the chinese coming market that that's where the business is uh now this leads to
00:39:55the thing i wanted to discuss with you about the approach that we should have as unionists because
00:40:00this is something that i see that we we are lacking we are still thinking these nationalistic bubbles too
00:40:06much and uh what i would love us to see and do is that uh what i would love to
00:40:12see us to do
00:40:13is to think more pan-europeanly i feel well it's a strange word but but the identity of
00:40:21finns lowaks germans austrians whatever shouldn't be the up the shouldn't have the apprehend all the
00:40:29time because nowadays it has and it's not exactly walking in our favor huh and when you look at our
00:40:35place in the global on the global stage then we are kind of losing momentum exactly because of this
00:40:42two in my opinion that's that's up for discussion now uh because of this uh two nationalistic uh
00:40:50approach of 27 countries doing their own thing and and we have to protect our borders and whatnot
00:40:57and our people and and this is kind of as strategies goes this is not the best one in my
00:41:06opinion so i
00:41:06would love us to go more into the pan-european mode of thinking and more collaboration but that's me
00:41:12tell me tell me what the others are thinking what was the mood in or is the mood in the
00:41:17circles
00:41:18where you are running in in my circles where with the people i meet professionally and talk with
00:41:25i i believe there is a interest towards this pan-european mood or mode like you say
00:41:33uh but also there is at the same time very strong nationalistic approach or protection even uh among
00:41:44the trade unions from from the same people you know because i can understand the nationalistic politicians
00:41:50even from the same people it depends on what you are discussing are you discussing something that
00:41:58is not that relevant for their particular trade union they are for sure in favor of pan-european
00:42:06are you discussing something that is actually the core business of the trade union they have
00:42:12whether it is industry agriculture or services immediately they become very protectionistic
00:42:19uh imagine you have three uh balls on the beach different size you have one uh like a tennis ball
00:42:27and you
00:42:27have one football and then you have the big one the uh the beach ball you know the inflatable from
00:42:33the
00:42:33childhood so the small ball that that is the protectionistic that's the nationalistic that it's only us and it's only
00:42:42our country and and uh our people and then you have the huge ball and that is the global one
00:42:49but we almost never see the football that is actually the european size the pan-european because either
00:42:57we try to protect everything in our country because that's our people working
00:43:05or then we say that we have a free market and everyone must be able to compete and to sell
00:43:13the
00:43:14product so uh if you go to one country and you hop on a tram probably that tram is actually
00:43:21made in china
00:43:22not not in that country or not even in europe uh and uh what i try to say with this
00:43:29example is that we
00:43:30we should have all the three of them we should have a nationalistic approach in a healthy way so
00:43:38that we have some basic uh national uh things that we do that so we are self-sufficient to a
00:43:46certain
00:43:46degree we have agriculture we have production we have education at the same time we should keep the
00:43:54doors open to the global market because we cannot produce everything by ourselves and then it means
00:44:02that there is also a demand for the pan-european what we do together in europe and especially the
00:44:09big things like let's go back to artificial intelligence cloud services they are too big for
00:44:17one country to do at least in a good and efficient way but it's not necessary to go outside of
00:44:25europe
00:44:25we can provide them if we can find the will and this is the challenge to find the will
00:44:31now this is this is what i'm constantly discussing with people are trying to make them understand that
00:44:38the educational part of our civic association that people don't know that the nationalistic
00:44:45view is actually made up that it's 200 250 years old context and concept sorry and before that people
00:44:54were not thinking in those terms not at all and more or less not at all and the thing is
00:45:00that when
00:45:01we go to the school we actually embrace and and and and and and canna like uh propaganda machine is
00:45:09uh working
00:45:10on our brains and we are canna you know we have our we have the the lyrics of the poems
00:45:16and and what
00:45:17not and and the flag is uh waving and what not but this is this is all canna artificially in
00:45:27brains into us
00:45:28we are not as much nationalistic as we can as the people are made to believe because in reality we
00:45:37are more european than than people of knowledge and this is the in my opinion now the failure of uh
00:45:44trade unions that we don't explain this to our members that the schools of yesterday when they were
00:45:51in school were actually not as objective as one wants to believe about these topics now and most people
00:45:57don't have a clue that the nationalistic identity or national identity is made up and this is actually
00:46:04used by the elites to no you know wave flag and and people go more willingly into the war i
00:46:11mean you
00:46:12are and we are neighbor as well with a country that is attacked nowadays so something totally impossible
00:46:1950 or 30 or whatever years ago because well now suddenly million people is dead or injured
00:46:27yeah and for what but let's go back to you you say about this nationalistic uh i have a feeling
00:46:35that uh when we become too nationalistic and we want it it's only us it's only my country my
00:46:44people and so and then we notice that oh we can't do something and then we don't think
00:46:51on the european level but our first and final step is just to go global and then we buy the
00:46:58services
00:47:00like cloud services artificial intelligence services
00:47:04um instead of thinking that okay if this is too big to do on national level but maybe we have
00:47:10the
00:47:11european level we think national level too big let's go big then and then we go on the global level
00:47:17and we
00:47:18lose that that's the problem because when we go directly to the global level without exploring the european
00:47:26uh then we lose a lot of opportunities for research and development to research and create new products
00:47:37we lose manufacturing whether it is it programming or it is building something like like cars or something
00:47:46uh and uh actually an investment even if the initial investment might feel more expensive let's say we have cloud
00:47:56services so um it will for sure in the beginning uh be more expensive to invest in european cloud services
00:48:06but when we pay more money uh we pay to european uh companies who employ european people and these
00:48:17companies and these people they pay taxes back to the european countries so actually that money is coming
00:48:24back now in the long run is cheaper now that's the irony of this of this revelation yeah so uh
00:48:33if we uh if we invest
00:48:341000 euros that goes abroad or we invest 1200 euros but it's in europe and from this 1200 euros
00:48:46somebody's paying taxes and other fees uh maybe 300 euros maybe even 400 euros so actually it was
00:48:54cheaper on european level even if one institution paid more but still it is cheaper um this brings me
00:49:03slightly to a uh uh connected topic we we know that uh for the past year the us has not
00:49:13been very
00:49:13favorable towards uh people from other countries from asia and uh um this includes actually a lot of
00:49:23uh science people and uh i i spoke with uh and it was in oslo but it was uh during
00:49:32the breaks
00:49:33at the summit i spoke with a few colleagues and i say that imagine uh if we could have a
00:49:39european
00:49:40program so not the national but the european program for uh science and the european union would
00:49:48now give money so that these people who don't feel comfortable at the u.s uh universities uh who have
00:49:58actually not even received the visa or the visas have been cancelled and they would want to be in a
00:50:06western country so uh europe would be if not the first but at least the second option but we need
00:50:13some
00:50:13uh serious finances to bring them here but it would mean that we could build in 20 or 30 years
00:50:22an absolutely outstanding science uh ecosystem because these science people they would bring
00:50:29the families and you know when you have children and children go to school you don't want to move
00:50:33because children needs to change language and uh once your children have grown this is their home
00:50:40country they don't want to move so you don't move and it means that we would uh be able to
00:50:47keep all
00:50:47these smart people here in europe and that would give an enormous boost to uh european research and
00:50:55development in any areas we choose so from from science to philosophy and everything in between
00:51:01uh and uh actually we could become a world dominating power economical and science wise
00:51:12because a lot of people yeah this is what i was saying this is a huge opportunity these american
00:51:17missteps i see them as a missteps yeah because they are kind of burning their money on things that in
00:51:23the long run are not very you know reasonable but that's their thing i don't leave it there so i
00:51:29i just i
00:51:30don't want to exploit them but fuck them like yeah but it's their fault so we should do something
00:51:37about it and then bring these people in i i have heard that the french are kind of doing something
00:51:42about it but uh as a as nationalism goes this is again the pretty example that yeah instead of this
00:51:51big umbrella of national transnational or pan-european approach yeah yeah everyone wants to bring
00:51:57i don't know about the french the numbers the french have brought but just for for a mental exercise
00:52:05let's say that if the french have brought 100 science people and maybe the germans and this is just a
00:52:13fictive uh example but if we would put the european power together and we would have a european program
00:52:21supporting this uh and with program i mean also finances we could easily bring in 10 000
00:52:29top level science people with families and everything to europe that that would be huge
00:52:37and uh let the people choose in which country they would go some would go to france some to germany
00:52:43some would come to finland or or or sovakia and and then you would be uh offering them something more
00:52:52than
00:52:52they can get now and uh for a lot of these science people i believe that uh one main reason
00:53:01this is
00:53:01two people talking but are the unions talking about this because it's no it's like uh no no no this
00:53:07is
00:53:07in the breeze that we are talking about it but the unions and the the the uni global and uni
00:53:13europe as
00:53:14the biggest union in european union should be talking about i i this is a fresh thought for me so
00:53:21or a fresh thought of mine so i i haven't had the opportunity yet to talk about that
00:53:28except for with a few colleagues in in oslo but i believe this is something that all of us should
00:53:33be
00:53:34uh discussing white color blue color unions because it's also important for blue color unions if we
00:53:41have uh high level science people coming to europe they make new inventions it means that also uh the
00:53:49production would be in europe so it would generate lots and lots of job opportunities everyone would
00:53:57benefit so if governments would give some extra money to the european union for this kind of programs
00:54:03that money would anyway come back to the national level and it would generate revenues uh from
00:54:11uh profits and it would uh generate revenues from taxes so uh most of the money would come back
00:54:19probably even more than what they initially invest because these people they would also buy sort of
00:54:25things housing and uh everyday stuff definitely as productivity goes these guys are not exactly the
00:54:33least productive in the society yes and also they are they are usually at least middle if not even high
00:54:40income people i'm talking not about millionaires but still uh they would have good salaries so they can
00:54:48they can buy a lot and plus we don't have to pay for the kindergarten upbringing the school upbringing the
00:54:55high
00:54:55school upbringing and maybe even their basic university so uh we're talking about the uh foreigners from
00:55:03wherever and that the salaries uh will be paid off uh easily for the investment because uh we will get
00:55:11full fully baked people because i was saying we didn't have to pay for the kindergarten for the
00:55:17schools and anything so as as investment goes it's actually pretty cheap so just i hope that some
00:55:25pragmatic heads no no yeah this is the us system i mean uh who who are the top people uh
00:55:32i i have the
00:55:33feeling that most of them are people who went to school in uh india pakistan china and other countries
00:55:41uh and um how how many have become uh top scientists based on the american school system compared to
00:55:49what they have so yeah we we would definitely win on this so let's talk more about the i mean
00:55:58we are talking for an hour so let's wrap it up slowly about the approach for the next
00:56:05one or two years probably so what were the outcomes from oslo and uh from all the discussions and and
00:56:13the approach that you think is the best one we already spoke about the collective bargaining uh but
00:56:21something else that uh stuck with you that is uh kind of important to mention in in addition and part
00:56:28of the
00:56:28color as part of the collective bargaining it is that we have to raise the level of knowledge
00:56:35so that includes our members it includes definitely our employee representatives and it absolutely
00:56:43means that the people working in the trade unions must understand the meaning of ai and the importance
00:56:51for the future and also the fact that we can really not live without this it's not an option to
00:56:56say
00:56:57no but i also heard we have one scandinavia union i'm not gonna name it but they have a total
00:57:05ban on
00:57:06using artificial intelligence in the trade union work okay so let's see how far and how long they will
00:57:13survive on this because i mean this world has changed and for me if somebody makes a decision like this
00:57:21i would ask myself that do those who made the decision really understand what they decided do they have
00:57:27enough understanding and this is the same question we all need to ask ourselves if we are afraid of ai
00:57:36or
00:57:36we are against ai do we have sufficient knowledge do we understand how much we can make for our work
00:57:44how much
00:57:45we can improve all the services that trade unions offer to members the understanding for example employee
00:57:54representatives negotiating about salary raises with the employer and they can use ai to check the
00:58:04annual reports and the business opportunities and the business results of the company something that if you
00:58:12are working eight hours a day you just don't have the energy and probably not the knowledge how to do
00:58:18it
00:58:19but with ai couple of minutes and and you have it in front of you and you go and you
00:58:24bargain with your
00:58:26management and you probably have a much better chance than without this is what i'm telling to
00:58:33people all the time that the best way to beat capitalism is to beat capitalism with its own
00:58:38tools absolutely yeah yeah you are so right on this so so why the heck not now i'm using it
00:58:46all the time
00:58:46myself as well and uh well but we are unfortunately behind we we should be much further ahead
00:58:55well it is what it is no yeah but this is but we should not be satisfied i mean you
00:59:02said it yourself
00:59:02now with this approach that the ban on ai in some union is the mindset isn't exactly very
00:59:10progressive in unions in general so you know what that is for another discussion why why the heck are we
00:59:18we are like this but that's just nature of the beast so as i said what is the take from
00:59:27this uh
00:59:28one day gathering so you are saying uh uh education learning more what else stuck with you
00:59:35collective bargaining learning more and making sure that we have the right kind of legislation
00:59:43and what is the mood in the companies that you are presenting not only you but the other guys
00:59:47when you met from multiple countries there uh about the whole situation in uh i guess in
00:59:54primarily uh it i guess maybe telecommunication i i guess those other companies we had finance and
01:00:01we had i had all kind of uh trade unions yeah so you know because are they feeling under attack
01:00:09or no
01:00:10no but these were scandinavian unions yeah but still you know like that this as challenges go this is
01:00:18this is a huge one ai so it is it is but already the example that we have uh an
01:00:26ai summit organized by
01:00:29scandinavia unions for scandinavia unions proves that in scandinavia we have understood the importance
01:00:36and we are actually doing something the only ones in european union or as far as i know as far
01:00:45as i know
01:00:45i i have not heard about any similar kind of activities elsewhere
01:00:52germans probably i don't know maybe where i haven't heard something have you heard i don't know
01:00:58i will be meeting with them in uh copenhagen in three weeks so this is one of the discussions i
01:01:04want to have because this this should be pan-european approach no yeah this is this is this is even
01:01:10if you
01:01:10scandinavian save yourself somehow when the rest of europe is struggling then you will be struggling
01:01:15because we are intertwined in european union that's that's my take correct you know it's maybe you will
01:01:21be just the last that we'll be losing but in the end you will be losing as well so you
01:01:25know just race
01:01:26to the bottom sheet so who needs this so that's why we should collaborate more okay so thank you very
01:01:33much uh unless you have some last words that you wanted to bring forward before we wrap it up
01:01:39about just to encourage everyone don't be afraid learn more okay cool thank you daniel so thank you
01:01:48till next time yeah thank you
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