TALKS - 35 - LEAD ORGANISER OF UNI EUROPE - video Dailymotion

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Transcript

00:00:11Hello, everybody, here is Michael from New Left. And today, again, we will be talking

00:00:16about European unions. And I'm lucky I found Ben Egan, who is the lead organizer in uni.

00:00:26So, Ben, can you please introduce yourself and tell us what you do, how you ended up

00:00:31where you are on this comfy chair of yours, or maybe not that comfy. Maybe it's a hot

00:00:38chair. Who knows? We will find out. Well, given the current heat wave, I can guarantee you

00:00:43it's hot. And as we just established, I don't have aircon. Yeah, so I'm Ben Egan, organizing

00:00:48director for UniEuropa. UniEuropa is the private services federation for European level, which

00:00:57is part of UniGlobal, which is obviously the same at the global level. Do you guys already

00:01:02– do you want me to just briefly explain what Uni does?

00:01:05Whatever you feel like, please do, because not everyone has seen the previous interviews.

00:01:09Okay. So basically, of course, you have all of the unions in every country and the confederation

00:01:15and the union centers. And then at the international level, so at the European level, you have the

00:01:19ETUC, which is confederation, which kind of represents – it's the official social partner

00:01:24at European level and represents all workers effectively. But then you also have 10 union

00:01:31federations representing specific sectors. So for us, we're one of those 10, one of the

00:01:37bigger ones, representing private services. So that would be – our biggest sectors would

00:01:43be commerce, retail workers, ICTS workers, finance, post logistics, and then you've got

00:01:52graphical, media, care, public services. I'm sure I will have missed one or two out, so

00:01:58I apologize for that. But you get the idea of the kind of sectors. The work I do is –

00:02:03I'm

00:02:03based in the Brussels office, and I'm responsible for the organizing work that we do with our

00:02:10affiliates in the various countries. So that's mostly working around sectoral collective bargaining

00:02:18is our main kind of calling card. So lots of unions that already have that sectoral bargaining,

00:02:25so that would be generally Northern and Western and into Southwestern Europe. Then we work with them to try to

00:02:32basically make it more inclusive, more participatory, use it to engage more members, et cetera, et cetera.

00:02:38And the places where we don't have it, we try and work with unions to put together a plan to

00:02:43achieve it,

00:02:45which basically means having a kind of systematic approach to try and get to applying pressure so that you can

00:02:51have it.

00:02:51Because, I mean, usually where we don't have sectoral bargaining, it's either they've never had it,

00:02:56or there was obviously that period with the Troika and so on some years ago where it was dismantled.

00:03:02So depending on which approach, you know, where you start that journey from, it can require different levels of engagement.

00:03:09But we work with unions basically to build the power.

00:03:12Okay. So let's jump into the deep water with a tough question.

00:03:16So how you see the unionization in Europe?

00:03:19You are in the eye of the hurricane, one can say.

00:03:25So there isn't a better person to talk about it because you are running, or co-running, or how to

00:03:31put it,

00:03:32the biggest union in Europe.

00:03:33So when I say Europe, I mean European Union.

00:03:37Yeah, what is outside of European Union is kind of, we don't have much influence about that.

00:03:42But let's talk about it.

00:03:45Just to be clear, I'm not running. I do just the organizing work.

00:03:47Like we have an elected leadership.

00:03:49But the organizing is the core of the...

00:03:53Yeah, on the organizing bit, look, I mean, you know, let's not beat around the bush.

00:03:59It's dire. Things are very, very bad.

00:04:02You know, the membership.

00:04:04Actually, if you look at the membership trends over quite an extended period,

00:04:09and of course, you know, the kind of neoliberal attacks to try and break down both unions as organizations,

00:04:17but crucially, the sector, the collective bargaining that underpins their power is obviously at different stages of development.

00:04:25Obviously, you can hear from my accent, where I'm from, from the UK, which is, you know, in many cases

00:04:31in Europe,

00:04:32that was the, you know...

00:04:34That's where it all started.

00:04:36Yeah, it's patient zero.

00:04:39So, you know, we've got kind of, you know, 40 plus years now of experience of this.

00:04:44And then, but then you go all around Europe.

00:04:46And then, of course, in Central and Eastern Europe, around 20, 25 years ago,

00:04:51certainly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, et cetera,

00:04:53you had this kind of shock therapy approach where it was applied, you know, willingly there.

00:04:58But then even places where you thought were kind of immune to it.

00:05:02So, you know, think of Western Europe, like France, Belgium, even your Nordic countries, et cetera.

00:05:10And they are under, you know, a sustained period of attack in terms of their trade union rights as well.

00:05:15So, I mean, everywhere you look in Europe, you know, you're really grasping for good news stories.

00:05:21It's quite, it's a very difficult...

00:05:23There is one exception, Iceland.

00:05:25They withstand it.

00:05:27There's more than one exception.

00:05:28If you go to individual unions, I mean, hopefully we can discuss some of them here.

00:05:32But we, I mean, there's lots of unions doing really good stuff.

00:05:35But systematically...

00:05:36Yeah, but I'm talking about the whole countries, not only Iceland, for whatever reason, managed to kind of...

00:05:42Yes, so I can tell you a bit about Iceland because I work with several Icelandic unions.

00:05:48And that system that they have, what they have at the moment is effectively a national closed shock.

00:05:55Yeah, so on day one of employment in Iceland, if you join the company, on day one,

00:05:59your employer's responsibility is to allocate you to the union,

00:06:02which is why they have effectively 100% membership.

00:06:04But even in Iceland with that system, it's starting to kind of creak at the edges

00:06:10because, firstly, I've had reports that lots of companies, it doesn't say which union they have to put them in.

00:06:18So increasingly, you're seeing them put them in either, you know, in-house yellow unions

00:06:22or the inappropriate one, you know, from outside.

00:06:27Okay, so your Iceland isn't such a great example.

00:06:31No, there's good examples all over the place and there's bad examples all over the place.

00:06:35Yeah, but talking holistically about countries.

00:06:37Exactly.

00:06:38So what you have in Iceland, the problem that you would have,

00:06:40and this is not a specific issue of Iceland, this is a general observation,

00:06:44is that generally there's a kind of, between membership and action,

00:06:50there's often a trade-off between those two.

00:06:52Yeah, so if you have a situation where you have very, very high membership,

00:06:56you know, high density, and in this case, I mean, this is obviously the perfect example,

00:07:00it's 100%.

00:07:01I know there's some carve-out, so it ends up, I think the official rate is like 94 or something,

00:07:06but it's effectively everybody is in the union.

00:07:08When you are self-employed, it's kind of hard to run the union on you, yeah?

00:07:12Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:07:13But sometimes when you have that kind of high levels of density,

00:07:16actually the trade-off sometimes can be that it's very difficult to activate workers

00:07:21to actually do anything because they think, well, unions are really strong here,

00:07:24everyone's in the union, the union, i.e. somebody else or an official of the union,

00:07:28will sort out all my problems because the union's strong.

00:07:31Whereas sometimes when you have places where the union is not so strong,

00:07:35but you've got, and you'll know this yourself from your own union experience,

00:07:39but you've got a hardcore group of people who are just not having it,

00:07:42who are going to build and are going to try to organize their workplaces,

00:07:45sometimes that can be more powerful than having 100% of people

00:07:48who don't want to take any action.

00:07:49So there's always this kind of trade-off between the two.

00:07:53But to go back to your original question about how things are in general,

00:07:57in general, things are bad.

00:07:59And membership is not necessarily down everywhere,

00:08:03but there's something that concerns me much more,

00:08:06something that much more of my working day and working life is dedicated to,

00:08:11and that's the hollowing out of workplace leader structures everywhere.

00:08:17So if you look at unions where, and just to go back to the Nordics again,

00:08:22if you look at places like that, which even despite some of the challenges

00:08:26we've had with far-right governments and so on in some of those countries recently,

00:08:32and the kind of systematic attacks we've had on some of the unions,

00:08:35I mean, they're still some of the strongest trade unions in the world,

00:08:38so we shouldn't lose sight of that.

00:08:40But also, even there, before you see a decline in membership,

00:08:46it's usually preceded, and this can be 5, 10, 15 years before that,

00:08:50by a gradual decline in your level of what we call shop stewards

00:08:55or works councils, workplace leaders, call them what you want,

00:08:59the terminology is different, the delegates, whatever.

00:09:03The phraseology is different in lots of different countries in Europe,

00:09:06but effectively what we're talking about is the same thing,

00:09:07which is the shop steward as the representative of the trade union on the shop floor.

00:09:13Not the official, not the people in the head office, not the lawyers,

00:09:18but the shop steward on the day where worker joins the workplace,

00:09:22and on day one, shop steward approaches everybody who starts.

00:09:26What do you ascribe it to that they can leave on?

00:09:30Sounds like they are not leaving, but they are not as engaged

00:09:33as they used to in the past, and then it crumbles.

00:09:37So what is your theory? Why is it happening?

00:09:41It's various reasons.

00:09:42I think the biggest one, which obviously is a little bit of a cop-out

00:09:46because it's the most difficult one to overcome, certainly in the short term,

00:09:50is culture.

00:09:51I mean, the union culture in most unions has developed into such a way that,

00:09:57let's say, for example, I'm a full-time union organizer,

00:10:01union leader, official, call it what you want, whatever my role is,

00:10:04and I go, okay, in this company, I've got all of these companies

00:10:07that I'm responsible for with varying levels of membership.

00:10:11Maybe my strongest workplace has got 60% membership,

00:10:14and maybe I've got somewhere we only have two, three members out of the workplace.

00:10:19And what I want from each of, you know, of course, the objective of any union

00:10:24is that I want to have workplace reps or shop stewards or whatever term.

00:10:28Does shop stewards make sense to you, by the way?

00:10:30Because then I could just say one, and I don't have to keep saying them all each time.

00:10:33No, no, no, no.

00:10:34So shop stewards is understood.

00:10:36Let's start with it.

00:10:37So let's say I need a shop steward in each of my workplaces,

00:10:41and I've been struggling for years to get them, and it's really difficult.

00:10:46Now, the correct approach, the proper organizing approach to building strong unions

00:10:50is to basically map workplaces, find out, I mean, I'll paraphrase very quickly,

00:10:55find out the things that piss them off at work,

00:10:57and find out the people that they look to as leaders.

00:11:00I mean, find that, and that's how you build campaigns.

00:11:03But actually, to go and do that sometimes takes a bit of time.

00:11:07It takes resources that a lot of unions have simply not allocated.

00:11:10So effectively, what you end up doing is you end up going,

00:11:13will anybody please be the shop steward?

00:11:16And one person goes, all right then, but I'm not doing, you know,

00:11:20I'll open the mail, I'll put up the posters or whatever,

00:11:22but I'm not doing any more than that.

00:11:23You go, oh, thanks, you're now my shop steward.

00:11:26And you do that again and again and again and again,

00:11:28and effectively what you end up with is, yes, you can now say you've got shop stewards,

00:11:34but so many of them are not trained, so many of them have not been brought in

00:11:41in the right sense, which is that we condition so many of our shop stewards

00:11:45that the job of a shop steward, even if it's one who's more active,

00:11:49is that now that you are the union representative,

00:11:52your job is to wait for members to bring their problems to you,

00:11:55and then your job is to fix those problems.

00:11:57When actually we should be conditioning shop stewards everywhere,

00:12:00that your number one priority is to make sure your workplace union

00:12:04is as strong as possible.

00:12:05And all of those problems that come, we will fix as a consequence

00:12:08of having a stronger trade union.

00:12:10So what you'll find is that in lots of places, like I said,

00:12:13even where we've got relatively strong trade unions,

00:12:16in Northern Western Europe especially, you see a hollowing out of those.

00:12:21So it may very well be, of course, the ultimate test of it

00:12:25is that there aren't any, or you have many, many vacancies,

00:12:29or only 40% of your actual shop steward positions that you are allowed to have

00:12:34have actually got anybody there, and then look at your 40%.

00:12:37What's the profile there?

00:12:39Well, the average shop steward is a 63-year-old man.

00:12:44How many of them have been on training?

00:12:46Maybe half of them have done some training.

00:12:47So there's a huge challenge there, and there's a huge job to be done

00:12:51by trade unions across Europe to absolutely refocus all of their attention

00:12:57on making sure that they have strong workplace unions.

00:12:59And this, of course, is where the trade-off or the balance comes

00:13:04with the sectoral collective bargaining.

00:13:06Because an inconvenient truth of this, of course, is that very often,

00:13:10the unions, which are stronger traditionally, will have sectoral collective bargaining.

00:13:16And very often, what happens over a period of time, if you're not very careful,

00:13:19it's almost inevitable, is that the worker or the member,

00:13:24who maybe doesn't have a shop steward, who maybe is not particularly active

00:13:27in trade union politics, just is not properly engaged in the process

00:13:35of collective bargaining.

00:13:36So effectively, something that happens up there in the capital city

00:13:39between senior union people, and at the end, I find out what pay rise I got,

00:13:45and probably every time I say, it should have been more.

00:13:48And I know people always say it's a service culture that's been created,

00:13:53and it's true.

00:13:54It's true.

00:13:55We treat members as if they're customers,

00:13:59and then wonder why they treat us like some private service provider.

00:14:03And then also, we condition the activists and the leaders that we do have

00:14:07in the shop floor, that your job is just to fix problems,

00:14:09and it shouldn't be.

00:14:10It should be about building...

00:14:11So what is your theory?

00:14:12Why did the culture evolve the way how you are describing?

00:14:16Because obviously, this isn't the way it has to be.

00:14:20No.

00:14:21Culture is very flexible.

00:14:23We can do whatever you want with it, up to a point, obviously.

00:14:25But, you know, how come that this is the place we are in?

00:14:31To be honest, I think it's just the kind of...

00:14:33I think it's quite inevitable.

00:14:35I mean, I think it's...

00:14:36I wouldn't call it inevitable.

00:14:38I would call it just it evolved this way because, you know, it evolved this way.

00:14:43It's not inevitable.

00:14:45Okay, when I say inevitable, I mean in terms of the internal.

00:14:47So I think if you want to track that process, there's two ways of looking at it,

00:14:53one of which I think is more interesting for us.

00:14:55One is the external, yeah.

00:14:57So because of these, you know, neoliberal governments...

00:15:00Actually, with how far right everything's gone now,

00:15:03you kind of look back to neoliberal governments with, like, misty-eyed.

00:15:06The good old days.

00:15:10Adults in the room.

00:15:12Exactly.

00:15:15Not a complete crazies.

00:15:17You don't even know what to say because it says...

00:15:19It wasn't psychotic liars.

00:15:21It was just people like Mandelson.

00:15:25So, yeah.

00:15:25So, effectively, you've got the external stuff.

00:15:28So, obviously, it's the government, it's the politics, etc.

00:15:31But then also, it's the stuff that's happening in the workplaces.

00:15:33It's, you know, the growth of multinational companies.

00:15:36And you'll know much better than I do about this.

00:15:39It's, you know, the multinational companies who all flooded into Central East and Europe

00:15:42from the 90s onwards.

00:15:45They weren't there for a specific reason, which we all know that.

00:15:48So, it's the companies as well.

00:15:50And then it's also...

00:15:51It wasn't all embracing love.

00:15:53I'm surprised, Ben.

00:15:54It wasn't that.

00:15:56I wouldn't presume to be able to comment on this when talking to you.

00:16:00So, you know much better than I do.

00:16:01But then it's also the change of work as well in the sense of, you know, automation of jobs,

00:16:07hollowing out of, like, kind of, you know, the middle of the labor market or whatever,

00:16:12flattening of basically shit jobs.

00:16:14And then, of course, now it's all...

00:16:16It's AI.

00:16:16It's the new boogeyman or whatever.

00:16:19So, all of that external stuff, absolutely true.

00:16:21It's absolutely, you know, fundamental stuff.

00:16:23But we don't control any of it.

00:16:25What's more interesting to me is internal union culture, structure, practice,

00:16:31in which you can basically acknowledge all of those existential threats and then say,

00:16:37okay, given that they are all true, what is our plan to adjust?

00:16:42And actually, most unions, I would go even more than most, I'd say virtually all,

00:16:49are quite conservative in terms of their bureaucracy.

00:16:53I'm not talking about the political output here, or, you know, of course,

00:16:56although some are conservative in that way as well.

00:16:59But, you know, I'm talking about the structures of unions,

00:17:02and it's quite difficult, and trust me, I know this, and I have the scars we try to do so,

00:17:06to try to get a union to change the way that it conducts its business, let's say,

00:17:12can be very, very difficult.

00:17:15You know, of course, most unions have pretty good democratic structures,

00:17:18so there's a whole political level of a debate.

00:17:21Then you have to go to a Congress.

00:17:22You know, this can take two or three years.

00:17:24Then you agree you're going to do something differently.

00:17:26Then there's the practice of actually getting people to do things differently

00:17:28to what they've done for a long time.

00:17:31So it can be, it can be a really, well, it can be, it usually is a very kind of

00:17:36difficult process.

00:17:38So when I talked about it being inevitable, what I meant there was, I think,

00:17:42and, you know, there's plenty of people who've theorized about the kind of, you know,

00:17:46iron laws of bureaucracy and so on, that if you go back to the history of any trade union,

00:17:50I mean, how does it start?

00:17:52It usually starts something roughly along the lines of, you know,

00:17:57some workers in a workplace have got a problem, got some issue.

00:18:00If you go back, certainly where I'm from in the UK and in Northern Western Europe,

00:18:04it would very often be around the health and safety or pay.

00:18:08One of those two things usually.

00:18:09And, you know, we're going back 150 plus years here.

00:18:12And you say, look, okay, we're not going to be picked off one by one.

00:18:15We're going to say, okay, either we all get this or none of us are going to work.

00:18:19That's the effective, that's the kernel, you know,

00:18:22that's the genesis of collective bargaining and of trade unions.

00:18:26That's how it starts.

00:18:28But then what happens is, okay, oh, that works.

00:18:31Okay, now we're going to stick together on this new issue.

00:18:32And then, you know what, I'm going to go and tell the guys in the other shop

00:18:35and then we're going to go to the next place.

00:18:36You know, and that's basically how unions formed.

00:18:38And then at some point along that journey, you start to say, okay,

00:18:42well, we've got enough members now.

00:18:43I think we need some people who can actually run the union across all the different workplaces

00:18:48on our behalf.

00:18:49So maybe we need to employ some staff to do that.

00:18:51So either employ staff or we need to elect some from amongst us who then come out of work full

00:18:56-time

00:18:56and run the union.

00:18:58So they're the two models really in Europe.

00:19:00But either way, what eventually happens is you get further away from the workplace.

00:19:05You then become your own employer.

00:19:07You become your own bureaucracy with forms to fill and processes to follow and HR policies and so on.

00:19:14And when I talked about the inevitability, I just think that once you become a bureaucracy...

00:19:19Also, you meant the setup and the structure?

00:19:22Yeah, I think the professionalization, yeah, I think inevitably takes you away from that poor roots thing.

00:19:29And then you have this them and us culture which can develop within unions where the workers

00:19:35or even the shop stewards or even your representatives within the companies can point to the union staff

00:19:41in the head office and say, you're the union, we're just members.

00:19:45Do you know what I mean?

00:19:46So who is the union here?

00:19:47Of course, my position is always the members are the union.

00:19:50And one thing that, you know, with all of the workshops that I run with full-timers and so on,

00:19:55I always impress this upon them, that the members of the union, the shop stewards are the leaders of the

00:20:01union.

00:20:02You, if you work for the union, you're an employee of the union.

00:20:05You're not the union.

00:20:05You are, you know, you see yourself as privileged civil servants whose job it is to go out

00:20:12and help those workers build their trade union power.

00:20:15But very often, you know, the culture in lots of unions is much more the other way around.

00:20:18And I think that's a problem because when you get to the point where the union is externalized,

00:20:24and I'm sure you will have seen this in your experience,

00:20:28particularly with more sophisticated anti-union strategies that we see from multinationals and so on,

00:20:33it's very easy to kind of other the union and say the union is this thing that's outside trying to

00:20:39get into our company

00:20:40where you say, no, no, no, this is something that grew inside your company,

00:20:44and we are helping them to grow in that way.

00:20:47And I know this only sounds like semantics, but these are the building stones for me of building a good

00:20:53strategy

00:20:53is making sure that we use the right labels and that we know exactly what it is that we're trying

00:20:58to build.

00:20:59And I think that if you look at places, particularly where you have a big,

00:21:04and I gave you an example there, which would be a low level.

00:21:06I mean, we've got a few staff.

00:21:08I mean, we now have lots of unions in Europe with hundreds and in some cases thousands of staff

00:21:13and a collective bargaining, which is done in closed doors.

00:21:17And 3,000 employers or employees, something like that when I'm not in state.

00:21:22I don't know, but yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the case.

00:21:25So yeah, you have these big unions.

00:21:26And then when I talk about the inevitability, I think that once you, it's a double-edged sword.

00:21:32So sector or collective bargaining is a double-edged sword in the sense that

00:21:37if you don't build all those building blocks and you don't have good communication two-way between every level of

00:21:42the union,

00:21:43it can become abstract, it can become distant,

00:21:46it can become very difficult to mobilize any workers to actually take action to either defend or support or to

00:21:51boost the demands.

00:21:53But on the other side, so on the one hand, I mean, I even have had some conversations with unions

00:21:58many times actually over the years

00:22:01who say that they don't want sector bargaining for those reasons.

00:22:03Like we prefer company and we might even coordinate company by company and make the same demands,

00:22:08but we want company bargaining because then that makes the workers understand

00:22:12that they need to be involved in this process and so on.

00:22:16And I understand why they're saying that, but I do disagree.

00:22:20Because notwithstanding those challenges, actually sector or collective bargaining

00:22:23is the greatest tool that the working class movement ever had for improving people's paying conditions,

00:22:29particularly at the lower levels of the workforce.

00:22:32So our job is to build that bridge between those two levels and to make sure that, you know,

00:22:38I mean, I use this kind of example a lot, but right now, too often, collective bargaining,

00:22:46especially sector or collective bargaining, and organizing are considered to be two entirely independent functions.

00:22:51Because what's collective bargaining?

00:22:53Collective bargaining is real, the proper core union business.

00:22:56It's negotiations.

00:22:57It's going head to head with employers and coming up with agreements.

00:23:01And what's organizing?

00:23:02Organizing is going out and getting new members.

00:23:04And you go like, okay, well, first of all, that's not what organizing is, number one.

00:23:08And secondly, like, if you have a proper, I mean, when we do strategy sessions with unions,

00:23:13we actually try to get them to come up with a organizing and collective bargaining strategy.

00:23:18That the two things have to be together.

00:23:19They're two sides of the same coin.

00:23:21And if I look at the unions who are doing the best work, the most effective work and delivering the

00:23:25best,

00:23:26particularly in sectoral level, it's the ones where actually organizing campaigns can be driven by negotiators.

00:23:33I.e., let's say you, Michal, you're going to go into your collective bargaining negotiations.

00:23:38And maybe what you used to do in the past was you'd go, you know, trying to negotiate as hard

00:23:42as you could.

00:23:43Then you come out with whatever you come out with.

00:23:45And then maybe you're not happy.

00:23:46So then maybe you'll say, oh, can we do some action to show that we're not happy on it?

00:23:50All right. And that wasn't really working.

00:23:51So you learn from that.

00:23:53And let's say next time round, you come to either the organizers, if you have full-time organizers or to

00:23:58the shop stewards or whatever.

00:24:00You say, listen, guys, I don't want that to happen again.

00:24:03We have got negotiations opening six months from now, eight months from now, a year from now, whatever.

00:24:09Well, let's put together a six, eight, 12 month, whatever it is, escalation campaign of constantly building and building and

00:24:16building.

00:24:16So that when we go into those negotiations, we're riding the wave.

00:24:20You know, they can basically, they can hear the crowds outside the, you know, outside the negotiation and they know

00:24:26exactly what the demands are and they know what will happen if those demands are not met, et cetera, et

00:24:30cetera.

00:24:31So those two things have to go together.

00:24:33And, you know, we do have lots of examples of unions that are doing that, but it's not something, if

00:24:37we're honest, that comes naturally to a lot of unions.

00:24:39It's a real slog of, you know, having to push and push and push.

00:24:44This leads to another question, because sounds like you're describing the elephant in the room, which is education.

00:24:52People are not really aware what is at stake, what's going on, where it all came from.

00:24:59You know, the whole culture, as you were saying, just is very blurry for most people.

00:25:05And then they think that this is the best of possible worlds when in reality, well, just look at the

00:25:12history, what was going on 50 years ago in most Western countries.

00:25:16And, well, yeah, and say something about that.

00:25:20So, because this is, this is, I mean, I'm not swimming in those unions water for decades like you do.

00:25:27So, I'm in only for like two or three years, and this is totally something that I lack, that the

00:25:34educational part is a non-existent in many cases, or if something's there, then it's very hollowed out and simple,

00:25:45and it's not like a university of unions or what.

00:25:50Yeah, I agree.

00:25:51And I have the feeling that in the past, it wasn't that way, that something got lost, because when I'm

00:25:58reading and listening about 19th century and worker movements back then, that those guys back then understood that it starts

00:26:07here.

00:26:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:09So, what happened there?

00:26:10Yeah, but also, what are unions for?

00:26:12You know, like, so if you look at the historically, very often, the union, you know, is the union a

00:26:18vehicle for socialist politics, or is it the other way around?

00:26:22Because actually, I think lots of unions have ended up in the other way around, which is, if we do

00:26:25say anything political, it's to preach to the choir so that nice left-wingers will join the union, rather than

00:26:31being the other way around, which is that we should be developing people who are critical of capitalism, who, you

00:26:36know, understand about the challenges.

00:26:36It doesn't have to be critical of capitalism, just simple.

00:26:39Whatever, like, inflation is here, like, let's be critical of reality, when the inflation goes up, my salary should kind

00:26:47of mirror the movement, it's not rocket science, because if it doesn't, then I will be poorer.

00:26:52So, when you are doing the profits you are doing, then please share it with me, because this is my

00:26:57money.

00:26:58Precisely, so this is one of the challenges, when we talk about education.

00:27:01This is not rocket science, that's why I'm so surprised that it really sounds like most people don't understand the

00:27:06simple mathematics, that everything that we do,

00:27:09we have, came from labor, just didn't fall from the sky, so it's our labor that made it all happen,

00:27:16so, yeah, let's share it, yeah, and maybe the scissors shouldn't be opening, but they should be kind of closing,

00:27:22but, you know, as selling points go, it isn't exactly complicated sell.

00:27:28I was in sales for over a decade, so it's kind of easy to explain to a child that when

00:27:37you bake the pizza, the pizza is yours, so why should you hand off two-thirds of the pizza to

00:27:42someone else who wasn't even baking it, you know, in the first place?

00:27:45For the same reason that I said before.

00:27:49The shareholder.

00:27:58Effectively, so, look, when we talk about education, there's two main things that I think you can say which have

00:28:04fed into the problem or the challenges that we have now.

00:28:07One of them is political education, yeah, so if you look at, like, historically, because you can't separate the fact

00:28:14that, you know, you see so many countries in Europe now where the far right has grown hugely,

00:28:19and it's come from people whose material interests are diametrically opposed, come from working class, you know, white working class

00:28:26or whatever, which is something that, let me just say in my own country, I mean, until 2019, I mean,

00:28:33there was always, you know, there's racists in every village or whatever, but, you know, in terms of being a

00:28:37political movement, I mean, we had this concept of the red wall, which was the, there's a certain part that

00:28:44when you get to the north of England, which will always be labor forever.

00:28:48No matter how, you know, no matter how neoliberal and how many illegal wars labor takes us into, they will

00:28:55always vote red, and therefore we're taking for granted for a long time.

00:28:59But then what happened was in 2019, in the fallout of the Brexit stuff, and then having a celebrity prime

00:29:05minister in Boris Johnson, for the first time ever, loads of those places voted blue, and it seems like that

00:29:11was, you know, that was crossing the Rubicon, let's say,

00:29:15because now they're all back in reform, the far right party in Britain. So, when you consider why is that,

00:29:23I think, you know, a sizable part of the answer to that question is, of course, a big part of

00:29:28it is,

00:29:28why vote for this Labour Party? Because of crap. They're not doing anything for workers, and I understand that. But

00:29:34also, at the same time, there is a complete absence of political education from trade unions.

00:29:40And if I look at, and I'm sure, you know, this will be replicated across lots of countries, and I

00:29:44know that from the unions that I work with, which is that many unions these days would see it as

00:29:49it's not their role to educate their members or their activists in terms of politics.

00:29:56No, and that's exactly the question. Where did this whole part of being a trade union kind of get lost?

00:30:02Because it wasn't like that in the past. So, somewhere along the way, you just...

00:30:07And I think the question is whether you know what happened and what were the causes that it was dropped.

00:30:12Because in my mind, the education comes first, and everything else is secondary, because, no, first, you have to know

00:30:18that you have problems.

00:30:19When you are blind to your own problems, because someone tells you a fairy tale, and you believe that fairy

00:30:24tale, then suddenly, you know, you don't feel the need to unionize, because everything is peachy.

00:30:31I think there's several factors, and it does differ slightly, the way it rolls out in each country. I know

00:30:36in my own country, it's the factors really are, I mean, one of them is that the unions that were

00:30:42historically the most political have been absolutely, you know, decimated.

00:30:47So, I mean, the classic one is the miners, which was, you know, historically the strongest union in Britain. I

00:30:52think at its peak, it had like a quarter of a million members or something. And now, I don't...

00:30:56But it was before the Second World War, or after, or...?

00:30:59No, no, no, no, the big fight with Thatcher, that was the big totemic fight.

00:31:03That was the peak of the membership as well?

00:31:05No, no, it wasn't the peak.

00:31:06No, I meant the membership. I know when the fight happened, but when was the peak of this quarter?

00:31:09Yeah, the membership peak would have, yeah, was much earlier. Yeah, maybe, maybe in the early 50s or something, maybe

00:31:14just after...

00:31:15Okay, okay. So, after the Second World War, when Labour was kind of, you know, flying, okay.

00:31:21Well, yeah, yeah, it's what, which means...

00:31:23To be honest, because it's a paradigm shift, it kind of doesn't matter. Like now, it doesn't matter if Labour

00:31:27are in power,

00:31:28because they're not going to touch the actual mechanics of how neoliberalism works.

00:31:32Actually, it's the same in, if you go back to the late 40s, early 50s, even into the 60s.

00:31:37Actually, it's the same, but the other way, which was a social democracy with strong trade unions and good, you

00:31:43know, good living conditions.

00:31:45I mean, whether the government was red or blue didn't really make a difference,

00:31:48because everybody bought into the paradigm.

00:31:51And we now have the same, the same kind of phenomenon, but on, you know, obviously, with the wrong, with

00:31:58the wrong outlook.

00:32:00No, wrong is relative for the, for the elites, for the top one, two, three percentage points is, is a

00:32:06fairytale.

00:32:06It's always great.

00:32:07It's wonderful, huh?

00:32:07So, this is exactly the thing to explain to people that this is not really in your self-interest.

00:32:14And don't buy into this shit, because this is bullshit. This is fairytale.

00:32:18They are selling you snake oil.

00:32:20So, I think that's, there's a part for that, but then, I think there's also, like, unless you've got an

00:32:27alternative to offer,

00:32:28that's not such a strong argument to make.

00:32:31Like I said, in the UK, many of the unions, certainly the biggest unions, were, I mean, they were affiliated

00:32:39to the Labour Party.

00:32:39The Labour Party was formed by the unions to go and represent us in the workplace.

00:32:44And actually, I mean, I know myself from when I used to be an organiser in the UK.

00:32:47I worked for, I was an organiser for a union that actually wasn't affiliated to the Labour Party.

00:32:52But it was something that would come up pretty much on a daily basis when you're talking to workers.

00:32:56Oh, why do I want to give my money to the Labour Party or whatever?

00:32:58So, the fact that the Labour Party became nothing that you can support did create a real kind of tension

00:33:04between what should the political education be?

00:33:07Because historically, the political education was to understand, effectively, I mean, maybe Marxist is too strong,

00:33:15but to understand how capitalism works and understand that there's a workers' party that you need to support and be

00:33:20active in.

00:33:21But once that thing to point out wasn't there, what does the political education look like?

00:33:26And one of the things that's happened, and we have to be honest about this as well,

00:33:29is actually the move towards the organising model of trade unionism,

00:33:34actually, in many cases, I found depoliticised further.

00:33:38Because actually, when you talk about organising workplace, you know, workplace organising,

00:33:42you actually say, let's, for the time being, not talk about the big existential issues.

00:33:50Let's not talk about the big political issues.

00:33:52Let's talk about the thing that's annoying you in your workplace today.

00:33:55Let's keep it at that level, yeah?

00:33:57And people go, OK.

00:33:58And that is the most effective way for trying to engage new groups of workers who are not active,

00:34:03who are not, you know, ready to go on strike or not, you know, not angry about the state of

00:34:08the world,

00:34:08maybe confused a bit or whatever.

00:34:10These low-level workplace issues are the best way to do it.

00:34:14But it's where you start.

00:34:15And unfortunately, lots of, I've seen it myself with lots of unions,

00:34:19it becomes where they start, but also where they finish.

00:34:21And then the union just becomes this kind of, you know...

00:34:26Yeah, but again, why is it so hollowed out?

00:34:29Because the problems are not going smaller and smaller and smaller.

00:34:34They are bigger and bigger and bigger.

00:34:35So there is really an elephant in the room.

00:34:37And I don't understand why the situation is screaming,

00:34:41let's do something differently, no?

00:34:44Is it denial or what is it in your...

00:34:47No, no, no.

00:34:48So basically, if you want to take a group of workers

00:34:51who have not got any history of doing anything political, active, you know,

00:34:56being organized in any way,

00:34:59to get them active on a big issue, which requires big...

00:35:03You know, to change big things requires big action.

00:35:05Those unions, those workers are not ready.

00:35:07They're not, they've not been conditioned.

00:35:09They've not been trained.

00:35:11They've not been developed.

00:35:12They've not got any consciousness.

00:35:14Actually, the way that you do it is through systematically slowly finding small issues

00:35:18and gradually building up their confidence.

00:35:20And you get that through, you know,

00:35:22you can't tell people about working-class solidarity.

00:35:27They have to experience it.

00:35:28And they experience it through gradually doing collective actions with their colleagues.

00:35:32And that can, and I've seen it myself many times,

00:35:34that can completely transform someone's political outlook.

00:35:37Like, because what's happening right now is that people are,

00:35:40let's say there's this big move towards the far right.

00:35:42Everybody support, you know, a big increase in support for the far right.

00:35:45And it's true, of course.

00:35:46But it's also, in my opinion, shallow.

00:35:50It's widespread, but shallow.

00:35:51Because it's not, it's people following shit on comment sections

00:35:56and on social media or whatever.

00:35:57It's not actually built on solid, like, organizing principles

00:36:00where, you know, people are discussing it in person every day

00:36:03and they've got their strong opinions or whatever.

00:36:05But the problem is, the choice then of the left

00:36:08or of the trade union movement, especially because we're still

00:36:11the biggest part of, you know, in terms of people,

00:36:13is do you want to fight them on the social media

00:36:17and have an idea that we can fight their shallow with our shallow?

00:36:20Or do we want to actually build grassroots local organization

00:36:24where people are immune to this kind of arguing?

00:36:27And I've watched it very often, you need to do the former

00:36:29because it's quicker and easier and, you know, you just employ a few people

00:36:32and they put a lot of stuff on social media.

00:36:34Whereas I would say we need the latter, which is, you know,

00:36:37really through getting people active in their workplaces

00:36:39is what will make them conscious to go beyond their workplace.

00:36:43But the problem that you have as well is that lots of unions

00:36:46have now got into the situation where even if they're doing organizing,

00:36:49it's kind of a hamster cycle of finding small issues,

00:36:53finding small issues, finding small issues.

00:36:55And actually, the, you know, the two to three year plan

00:37:00of developing a new leader on the shop floor,

00:37:02where by the end of that process, they're conscious of,

00:37:06you know, all of these little issues that we ran campaigns on

00:37:08and we won on each of them.

00:37:09Yeah, you know, they all come from,

00:37:11they all come from the attack on trade union power.

00:37:13They all come from this late stage capitalism.

00:37:15They all come from, you know, the unmitigated power of capital

00:37:19to ride roughshod over workers' rights.

00:37:21But you did that through doing it with them,

00:37:23not through just telling them or, you know, read this.

00:37:26Do you know what I mean?

00:37:27Taking people on that journey is the way that you do it.

00:37:29We also have it the other way, by the way,

00:37:31which is, you know, probably most unions have,

00:37:35don't do enough on the political development,

00:37:39the political education side, political organizing.

00:37:42And then you have a smaller number of unions,

00:37:45which would be, you know, left,

00:37:46the left like socialist and communist unions,

00:37:48who, in my opinion, often go too heavy too quick.

00:37:52Like, you know, I mean, sometimes I'll see like,

00:37:55show me your day one training or, you know,

00:37:57or whatever for a group of workers.

00:37:59And it's all about,

00:38:00exactly, it's like seizing the means of production

00:38:02and so on.

00:38:03And you're like, look,

00:38:04there's about probably five to 10% of people

00:38:07who are going to love this.

00:38:09And then the other 85, 90, 90, 90.

00:38:13Yeah, probably some will run away scared

00:38:16and some will just be like,

00:38:17what the fuck was that?

00:38:19You know, so there's a balance to be struck

00:38:24between industrial and, you know,

00:38:26workplace organizing,

00:38:28sexual bargaining, all that,

00:38:29then you kick it up,

00:38:30but then also having a political vision

00:38:32of what the country should look like.

00:38:34Another question I have

00:38:36that kind of mirrors or goes hand in hand

00:38:39with this discussion is media

00:38:42and the role of media

00:38:44and the lack of transnational pro-union

00:38:49or even union-created media,

00:38:53basically more or less in all the countries.

00:38:55I don't know, maybe there are some exceptions

00:38:56where union media is still alive and kicking,

00:39:00but as far as I know,

00:39:02those are the exceptions and not the rule.

00:39:04So the question is what happened there?

00:39:06Because the workers used to have their own media

00:39:09and unions used to have their own media

00:39:11and now, as I said,

00:39:13more or less everywhere it was dropped

00:39:14for reasons I don't understand

00:39:17because when we are talking about education,

00:39:19the public and the workers,

00:39:21well, you know, media is the way to go.

00:39:24When you say media,

00:39:25do you mean like newspapers?

00:39:27Like union newspapers?

00:39:28All of it, all of it.

00:39:30I mean, the media landscape today

00:39:32is mega white and mega bright

00:39:34and this is media.

00:39:35And, well, maybe if you want to question,

00:39:38so with how many trade unionists

00:39:40from different countries,

00:39:41have you done an interview like this?

00:39:43No, I assume not with every country yet.

00:39:46No, so this is it.

00:39:48Now, the lack of awareness

00:39:50that media is part of the solution.

00:39:53Yep.

00:39:54Yeah.

00:39:56It's, it's, I don't know.

00:39:58I honestly don't know the answer to that question,

00:40:00but I would guess that it's cost cutting.

00:40:02I would guess.

00:40:02So if you look back at what, you know,

00:40:07so historically, what would the communication look like

00:40:09between, let's say,

00:40:12and obviously this undermines what I said earlier,

00:40:13from the union to the workers,

00:40:15but Ben, the workers are the union.

00:40:16Okay.

00:40:17From the union head office, let's say.

00:40:19The more aware and the less aware.

00:40:21Yeah.

00:40:22Let's say the centralized union.

00:40:23Let's say the centralized union.

00:40:25The professionals.

00:40:27Oh, I don't know.

00:40:28I don't like that.

00:40:30You are a professional.

00:40:32Deal with it.

00:40:33I don't know.

00:40:34We'll see.

00:40:35It doesn't say comfortable.

00:40:37But yeah, what would the communication...

00:40:39So you are an amateur then, no?

00:40:40If you like it better.

00:40:42Well, it's funny you should say that

00:40:43because that's one of my favorite words.

00:40:45You know why?

00:40:46If you want to know about the cynicism of the Brits

00:40:49and of the English language,

00:40:51that in English language,

00:40:53we say like exactly as you just used it.

00:40:55Professional is, you know,

00:40:56people who you know what they're doing.

00:40:57The serious one, the adults in the room.

00:40:59Yeah.

00:41:00Amateurs don't know what they're doing.

00:41:01But actually in French,

00:41:03obviously it's a French word.

00:41:04Amateur is like to do something for the love of it.

00:41:07Like it's a much more positive.

00:41:09Uh-huh.

00:41:09Okay.

00:41:11And cynical Brits have gone,

00:41:13you're not even getting paid.

00:41:17Anyway, I digress.

00:41:20About the communications.

00:41:24So if you look at historically,

00:41:25I mean, of course,

00:41:27you would have like union newspapers,

00:41:29union newsletters.

00:41:30I actually think one of the biggest problems,

00:41:32and it's kind of a gift and a curse.

00:41:34So you give the example of doing this,

00:41:35which is very easy.

00:41:37You're at your house.

00:41:37I'm at mine.

00:41:38We have a laptop.

00:41:39There.

00:41:40It's easy to go.

00:41:41But actually the ease of using kind of digital tools,

00:41:44actually,

00:41:45I think,

00:41:46has had many negative impacts

00:41:48in the communication

00:41:49between workers

00:41:51between workers

00:41:52and the central union.

00:41:53I mean,

00:41:54the most classic one,

00:41:54of course,

00:41:55is even me,

00:41:57even being a full-time union,

00:41:59let's say professional

00:42:01for all of these years,

00:42:0218 years.

00:42:03I mean,

00:42:04even I,

00:42:04I think most of my union emails

00:42:06go straight and straight.

00:42:07It's a joke.

00:42:07Do you know what I mean?

00:42:08It's not something

00:42:09that you're looking out for.

00:42:10And I remember a few years ago

00:42:11speaking to someone

00:42:12who was talking about

00:42:13how it used to be

00:42:14on the shop floor.

00:42:15I said,

00:42:16how did it used to be

00:42:16when you didn't use emails?

00:42:18Because some unions

00:42:20have even resisted using it

00:42:21until quite recently,

00:42:22particularly in print sectors

00:42:23and so on.

00:42:24And he said,

00:42:25okay,

00:42:25the way that it used to be

00:42:26was that you would take the memo,

00:42:28which is basically

00:42:29what is now the email,

00:42:30and it would go to,

00:42:31the printed version

00:42:32would go to,

00:42:33only to shop stewards.

00:42:35And the shop steward

00:42:36had to make sure

00:42:36that every member signed,

00:42:38put their initial at the top

00:42:39to say that they'd read it.

00:42:41And you're like,

00:42:42how fucking brilliant is that?

00:42:44not just because

00:42:45they're signing it

00:42:46and they've read the memo,

00:42:47but more crucially,

00:42:48that you design

00:42:49your communication

00:42:50so as to mean

00:42:52that the shop steward

00:42:53has to go and have a conversation

00:42:54with every member.

00:42:55That's proper organizing work.

00:42:57Whereas now,

00:42:58in almost all cases,

00:43:00we,

00:43:01I mean,

00:43:01very rare even

00:43:03that unions

00:43:04send the communication

00:43:05only to the,

00:43:07shop steward

00:43:07and ask him or her

00:43:09to communicate

00:43:10with his or her members.

00:43:11Actually,

00:43:12usually now,

00:43:13in almost all cases,

00:43:14we just send it directly

00:43:15to the members.

00:43:16We cut out the shop steward.

00:43:18Goes back to what I was saying

00:43:18at the beginning.

00:43:19They're doing it.

00:43:20Why?

00:43:20Because we've got too many gaps

00:43:21in the shop stewards.

00:43:22If we rely on the shop stewards,

00:43:23we don't have the coverage,

00:43:25blah, blah, blah.

00:43:26But then,

00:43:26you know,

00:43:27industrial muscle

00:43:28is like any other muscle.

00:43:29If you never use it,

00:43:30guess what?

00:43:31You lose it.

00:43:32So there's this kind of balance.

00:43:35So I think

00:43:35in terms of the communication,

00:43:37part of it for sure

00:43:38is about,

00:43:39is about,

00:43:40you know,

00:43:40the cost cutting.

00:43:41So I think,

00:43:42you know,

00:43:42all the stuff that's,

00:43:42anything to do with like

00:43:43printed,

00:43:44whatever,

00:43:45I think is less.

00:43:45The question then is,

00:43:47was it,

00:43:47I mean,

00:43:48obviously it wasn't smart

00:43:49to cut this

00:43:50because,

00:43:51you know,

00:43:51the media

00:43:52and the communication

00:43:53and the awareness

00:43:54and everything

00:43:55when,

00:43:55because as it is,

00:43:57you know,

00:43:57when unions are not providing

00:43:59the information,

00:44:00someone else will.

00:44:01And now we have right-wingers

00:44:02and far-rights

00:44:03in the cahoots

00:44:04because,

00:44:05well,

00:44:06you know,

00:44:06they,

00:44:07I can't say they

00:44:08dominate the media landscape,

00:44:10but they are definitely

00:44:11not small.

00:44:12Yeah.

00:44:13And the narratives

00:44:14they come forward with,

00:44:15they can't be dismantled

00:44:17because there is no

00:44:18alternative media landscape

00:44:19that can kind of say,

00:44:21man,

00:44:21this is bullshit.

00:44:22And people just believe it

00:44:23because easily,

00:44:24I mean,

00:44:25this is the easy sell

00:44:27for them.

00:44:27It's very emotional

00:44:29and emotions sell,

00:44:31yeah,

00:44:31to,

00:44:32to explain capitalism

00:44:34and power structures

00:44:35and everything

00:44:36that's not two sentences.

00:44:38No,

00:44:39and also the problem

00:44:40that we have as well

00:44:41is that we should be,

00:44:42we should,

00:44:43for me,

00:44:43it's really,

00:44:44really important

00:44:44to distinguish

00:44:45between communication

00:44:47or communicating

00:44:49and broadcasting.

00:44:50Yeah,

00:44:50so,

00:44:51so effectively

00:44:52what we're talking

00:44:52about there,

00:44:53about,

00:44:53you know,

00:44:54trying to give

00:44:54alternative narratives

00:44:55to workers,

00:44:56that's competing

00:44:57on the broadcasting.

00:44:58Yeah,

00:44:59so broadcasting,

00:45:00of course,

00:45:00historically you would say

00:45:01it's TV,

00:45:02radio,

00:45:02and of course

00:45:02now it's increasingly

00:45:03online,

00:45:04et cetera.

00:45:04But actually,

00:45:05I think that the,

00:45:06the unique power,

00:45:08the thing that,

00:45:08that trade unions

00:45:09need to focus on

00:45:10is the fact that

00:45:11we're not seeking

00:45:12to only broadcast,

00:45:12we're seeking

00:45:13two-way communication.

00:45:15And if I look at like,

00:45:15I mean,

00:45:16this is an endemic

00:45:17problem,

00:45:17honestly,

00:45:18with so many

00:45:19of the campaigns

00:45:20and the projects

00:45:21that I work on

00:45:21with unions,

00:45:22where effectively

00:45:25unions will say,

00:45:27and they use it,

00:45:27the most common group

00:45:28for this,

00:45:29by the way,

00:45:29is young workers.

00:45:30You know,

00:45:31young workers

00:45:31are not joining

00:45:32the union anymore.

00:45:33We're sending them

00:45:33all of this great stuff

00:45:34and they're just

00:45:35not engaging,

00:45:35whatever.

00:45:36Which I always find

00:45:37like a really rather

00:45:40incredible way

00:45:41of approaching

00:45:41a trade union organizing.

00:45:42You say,

00:45:43okay,

00:45:44so effectively

00:45:45what you're saying

00:45:46is that the offer,

00:45:47let's say,

00:45:48let's put it in those terms,

00:45:49the union,

00:45:51the organization,

00:45:52the structure

00:45:53that we currently have

00:45:54is the final finished form.

00:45:56It's already been perfected.

00:45:58Why can't these workers

00:45:59see how great the union is?

00:46:01And you go like,

00:46:02well,

00:46:02have you considered

00:46:02going out and asking them

00:46:03like what they,

00:46:04if they don't care about

00:46:05what you've been sending them

00:46:06for however long,

00:46:08has it ever occurred to you

00:46:09to go and ask

00:46:09what they do care about

00:46:10because anyone

00:46:11who spends any time

00:46:12with young people,

00:46:14especially young workers

00:46:15these days,

00:46:16will be under no

00:46:18dissolutions

00:46:18that they have got

00:46:19lots of shit to say.

00:46:21They're very angry

00:46:22about lots of things

00:46:23but they don't expect

00:46:24to be,

00:46:25they're not interested

00:46:26in just being broadcast to.

00:46:28It needs to be two-way.

00:46:29Now,

00:46:29lots of unions have,

00:46:31you know,

00:46:31let's take the example

00:46:32of social media.

00:46:34So,

00:46:34you know,

00:46:34we've had some unions

00:46:35for example

00:46:36where they'll try

00:46:37to open up

00:46:38the black box

00:46:39of collective bargaining.

00:46:41So,

00:46:41you know,

00:46:41I've seen several

00:46:42union leaders

00:46:43where they'll go in

00:46:44for negotiations,

00:46:45let's say high-level

00:46:46negotiations

00:46:47and then they'll come out

00:46:48and they'll do

00:46:48like a live broadcast

00:46:50out on,

00:46:50you know,

00:46:51Facebook,

00:46:52Instagram,

00:46:53whatever,

00:46:53saying,

00:46:54this is what just happened,

00:46:55this is the thing.

00:46:56Now,

00:46:56a lot of employees

00:46:57don't like that

00:46:58because they've had

00:46:58a nice,

00:46:59cozy relationship

00:47:00very often

00:47:00for a long time.

00:47:01Whoa,

00:47:02whoa,

00:47:02don't be telling

00:47:03your,

00:47:03you know,

00:47:04your 50,000 members

00:47:05or whatever.

00:47:05I know,

00:47:06this is just you

00:47:06and me in a room,

00:47:07let's discuss it

00:47:08and you go like,

00:47:09no,

00:47:09I don't work for you,

00:47:10I work for them.

00:47:11You know,

00:47:12so,

00:47:12but doing that

00:47:12is not,

00:47:13it's high risk.

00:47:15It can be high risk

00:47:16because,

00:47:17you know what I mean,

00:47:17we've seen cases

00:47:18where,

00:47:18you know,

00:47:18you go out and do that

00:47:19but then when you

00:47:20open yourself up

00:47:21by broadcasting stuff

00:47:22about the negotiations,

00:47:24when things don't go well,

00:47:25you can have hundreds

00:47:27and thousands

00:47:27of comments

00:47:28onto your video

00:47:29from your own members

00:47:30saying,

00:47:30fuck you.

00:47:31Do you know what I mean?

00:47:32So it's because

00:47:32they're not happy

00:47:33what the outcome was.

00:47:34I don't think

00:47:35you will get that

00:47:36if you do what I said earlier

00:47:37which is,

00:47:37you build your campaign

00:47:38from the bottom up.

00:47:39So everybody's,

00:47:40what we call in the jargon,

00:47:42inoculated.

00:47:42All of the people

00:47:43know what the demands are,

00:47:45they know what the expectations are,

00:47:46they know what they're pushing on

00:47:47and they know what their role is

00:47:49in terms of trying to deliver on it.

00:47:51I'm thinking about

00:47:52what you are saying

00:47:53and you are basically saying

00:47:54that people take shortcuts

00:47:57and lifts

00:47:58and helicopters

00:47:59and whatever

00:47:59to get to wherever

00:48:00they want to go

00:48:01instead of taking the long way

00:48:04and climb the steps

00:48:06and sweat a little bit.

00:48:08Am I right?

00:48:09There's that,

00:48:09yeah,

00:48:09there's that

00:48:10but there's also

00:48:11the culture

00:48:15of

00:48:17getting people

00:48:18ending up

00:48:19spending,

00:48:20you know,

00:48:20you have lots of senior people

00:48:22who spend far more time

00:48:24in the presence of employers

00:48:25than they do of members

00:48:26and that's a problem for me.

00:48:29Do you know what I mean?

00:48:29Like to understand

00:48:31that to be on the,

00:48:32there's a perfect allegory

00:48:34and I can't take the credit for this.

00:48:35This is my very close friend

00:48:38and former comrade Erkan

00:48:40who I don't know

00:48:41if you've ever met.

00:48:42He used to be with Nune.

00:48:45I used to work with him.

00:48:46He's now back at Unite

00:48:47and he always uses

00:48:48the metaphor of

00:48:51Antaeus the Giant

00:48:52which is one of the

00:48:54labors of Hercules,

00:48:56one of the ancient Greek stories

00:48:58and the story vaguely

00:49:00goes like this

00:49:00and I'm sure I'll get

00:49:01some bits of it wrong.

00:49:02He tells this story

00:49:02much better than I do

00:49:03so apologies

00:49:04but basically

00:49:05this is,

00:49:07in this story

00:49:08there is this giant

00:49:09called Antaeus

00:49:10whose mother is Gaea

00:49:11which is the earth

00:49:12and he basically

00:49:14challenges people

00:49:15who are passing this bridge

00:49:16or mountain

00:49:17or whatever.

00:49:18He challenges people

00:49:19to fight

00:49:19and he obviously

00:49:21is a giant

00:49:21and he kills everybody

00:49:23who he fights.

00:49:25so Hercules observes this

00:49:27and he realises

00:49:28that this guy is big

00:49:29very very strong

00:49:30but also can be quite slow

00:49:32and he notices

00:49:33when he's fighting

00:49:34with these people

00:49:35he constantly has to

00:49:36keep touching the ground

00:49:37to restore his energy

00:49:38because his mother

00:49:39is the earth

00:49:40and that's how

00:49:40he gets his energy.

00:49:41So what actually happens

00:49:43is that Hercules

00:49:43then goes to fight him

00:49:45realises what's going on

00:49:46the giant tries

00:49:47to touch the ground

00:49:48Hercules prevents him

00:49:49holds him in the air

00:49:51and strangles him

00:49:52and kills him

00:49:52and effectively

00:49:53that's what employers

00:49:54are trying to do

00:49:55to union officials

00:49:56they don't want you

00:49:56touching the ground

00:49:57don't go back

00:49:58to the workplace

00:49:59don't go back

00:50:00to the workplace

00:50:00stay here

00:50:01have a dinner

00:50:01have another

00:50:02let's meet again

00:50:03let's go to a nice

00:50:05you know

00:50:05restaurant, hotel

00:50:06whatever you do

00:50:07don't touch the ground

00:50:09and they strangle you

00:50:10so that's effectively

00:50:12cultural kidnapping

00:50:13basically

00:50:13so they take them away

00:50:15from wherever

00:50:16the home is

00:50:17it can be a risk

00:50:18it can be a risk

00:50:19and it's not always

00:50:20you know

00:50:21it's not intentional

00:50:22or whatever

00:50:22and actually

00:50:23you know

00:50:23obviously

00:50:24I have probably

00:50:26a non-representative

00:50:29sample

00:50:29in terms of

00:50:30you know

00:50:31all of the unions

00:50:32who I work with

00:50:32I mean

00:50:33in the vast majority

00:50:34of cases

00:50:35they have sought me out

00:50:36do you know what I mean

00:50:37like so

00:50:37I don't see this

00:50:39but it's something

00:50:39that I hear second-hand

00:50:40reported

00:50:41because I

00:50:41you know

00:50:42the unions

00:50:42who I work with

00:50:43want to do it

00:50:44in the right way

00:50:45but it's something

00:50:47that does happen

00:50:48and you know

00:50:50it's easier

00:50:51for that to happen

00:50:53and it goes back

00:50:54to what I was saying

00:50:54before about

00:50:55you know

00:50:55the kind of

00:50:55inconvenient truth

00:50:56that when you have

00:50:57good institutional

00:51:00role for the union

00:51:01you know

00:51:01we're talking about

00:51:02countries where you have

00:51:03strong sectoral bargaining

00:51:04it's universally applied

00:51:06to everywhere

00:51:07maybe the unions

00:51:08are also involved

00:51:08in the social security

00:51:09administration

00:51:10you know

00:51:11it's very easy

00:51:12in those circumstances

00:51:13for the union

00:51:14to become

00:51:15part of the infrastructure

00:51:17almost of the state

00:51:18and of the

00:51:18certainly of the status quo

00:51:19if not the actual

00:51:21you know

00:51:22the arms of the state

00:51:23and we just need

00:51:24to be conscious of that

00:51:25I'm not saying

00:51:26you know

00:51:26like I said before

00:51:27I still think unions

00:51:28I still think sectoral

00:51:30collective bargaining

00:51:30is the best thing

00:51:31that unions can win

00:51:32I still want unions

00:51:33to have strong

00:51:34you know

00:51:35strong institutional roles

00:51:36but we also do need

00:51:38to recognise

00:51:38the risk of that role

00:51:39which is

00:51:41what is it

00:51:41that you know

00:51:42you don't necessarily

00:51:43want the poacher

00:51:45to always be eating

00:51:46with the gamekeeper

00:51:46let's say

00:51:48question

00:51:48and now

00:51:50about the future

00:51:51not about the present

00:51:52or the past

00:51:52because basically

00:51:54I mean

00:51:55maybe I'm naive

00:51:56but you

00:51:56in my

00:51:57from my perspective

00:51:59you describe

00:51:59well

00:52:00what is going on

00:52:01why we are

00:52:01where we are

00:52:02and the question is

00:52:03where to go from here

00:52:05and the

00:52:06question is

00:52:07what is the

00:52:09mood

00:52:10today

00:52:11what you see

00:52:12because you know

00:52:13the decline was

00:52:14for 30-40 years

00:52:15steady decline

00:52:16decline

00:52:17decline

00:52:17the situation

00:52:19is so dire

00:52:19as it wasn't

00:52:20from 19th century

00:52:22or whatever

00:52:23yeah

00:52:23so

00:52:24actually

00:52:25I have made

00:52:26data

00:52:26last week

00:52:27about

00:52:28the history

00:52:29of

00:52:29inequality

00:52:30in Western Europe

00:52:31from middle ages

00:52:33from 12th century

00:52:34and it was

00:52:35more or less

00:52:36steady

00:52:37for 500 years

00:52:38and in

00:52:3818-19th century

00:52:40it started

00:52:40to decline

00:52:41and now

00:52:42since neoliberalism

00:52:44after 150

00:52:45years of decline

00:52:46the inequality

00:52:48is again

00:52:49going up

00:52:49so

00:52:50150 years

00:52:51of doing

00:52:52the right thing

00:52:53and now

00:52:53for 40 years

00:52:54doing the wrong

00:52:55thing

00:52:55as

00:52:57stupidity

00:52:58goes

00:52:58or blindness

00:52:59or denial

00:53:00or whatever

00:53:01you can't deny

00:53:02reality for too long

00:53:03because it's just

00:53:03screaming in your

00:53:04in your face

00:53:05so

00:53:05I

00:53:06and that's the

00:53:07question

00:53:08I would

00:53:09guess

00:53:10that the

00:53:10situation

00:53:11is so bad

00:53:12that people

00:53:13are kind of

00:53:13waking up

00:53:14or not

00:53:16tell me

00:53:17or tell us

00:53:19when you say

00:53:20people

00:53:20do you mean

00:53:21like workers

00:53:22yeah

00:53:23yeah

00:53:24I think workers

00:53:25I mean

00:53:25you know

00:53:26one of the things

00:53:26that

00:53:26the wages

00:53:28are stagnating

00:53:29the prices

00:53:29are just

00:53:30through the roof

00:53:31the situation

00:53:32in workplaces

00:53:33layoffs

00:53:34whatever

00:53:34AI

00:53:35you name it

00:53:36it's just

00:53:37it's screaming

00:53:37that this isn't

00:53:38working for me

00:53:39as a normal

00:53:40worker

00:53:41so

00:53:41you know

00:53:42they should be

00:53:43flooding the union

00:53:44now

00:53:44and that's the

00:53:45that's the question

00:53:47you know

00:53:48yeah

00:53:49so

00:53:49is it happening

00:53:50will it happen

00:53:51what to do

00:53:52how to do it

00:53:52no

00:53:53no

00:53:53it won't happen

00:53:54no

00:53:54okay

00:53:56well

00:53:56let's

00:53:57let's finish

00:53:58we can cut it

00:53:58and we'll finish there

00:54:01no no

00:54:02no no

00:54:03they won't

00:54:03automatically

00:54:04is what I mean

00:54:05so basically

00:54:06you know

00:54:07and we

00:54:07I'm sure you will have seen it

00:54:08you always see these

00:54:09kind of

00:54:09figures banded around

00:54:11about

00:54:11you know

00:54:12if you ask

00:54:13like if sociologists

00:54:14or social scientists

00:54:15ask young people

00:54:17like either directly

00:54:19do you support unions

00:54:20or

00:54:20just the features of a union

00:54:22do you support

00:54:22do you think

00:54:23collective bargaining

00:54:23should be

00:54:24you know

00:54:24should be the way

00:54:25that wages are determined

00:54:25etc etc

00:54:26I mean it always comes back

00:54:27with the same thing

00:54:28which is

00:54:28young people

00:54:29are really really

00:54:30pro-union

00:54:31as like

00:54:32well show me the membership list

00:54:33that confirms that

00:54:35yeah so

00:54:35so there clearly

00:54:36is a problem

00:54:37there

00:54:39of course

00:54:39you know

00:54:40the old

00:54:40truism

00:54:41that

00:54:42we always use

00:54:43in organizing

00:54:44is

00:54:45you probably know

00:54:46the answer

00:54:46what's the number

00:54:47one reason

00:54:47that union

00:54:48that workers

00:54:49give for

00:54:49not joining a union

00:54:51they don't want to

00:54:52pay the membership fee

00:54:53no

00:54:54even more basic

00:54:56they are scared

00:54:58nobody asked

00:54:59oh

00:55:00okay

00:55:02that's usually

00:55:02the giving back

00:55:03is the number one answer

00:55:04and that's a fact

00:55:05it's a fact

00:55:06I mean

00:55:06you know

00:55:06and I've seen it

00:55:07even with lots of

00:55:08the campaigns

00:55:09that I've worked on

00:55:10that in lots of

00:55:11unions

00:55:12so obviously

00:55:13we have the staff people

00:55:14and the organizers

00:55:15and so on

00:55:15but then also

00:55:16nobody asks physically

00:55:18face to face

00:55:19nobody has asked me to join

00:55:19yeah yeah

00:55:20no one has asked me to join

00:55:21physically

00:55:21face to face

00:55:22or

00:55:23or virtually

00:55:24because that's a different

00:55:26kind of beast

00:55:27you mean like on a video

00:55:28or you mean like

00:55:29yeah like someone

00:55:30someone did send me an email

00:55:32or someone would send me a message

00:55:34or you know

00:55:34it wasn't physical

00:55:35it wasn't like

00:55:36okay even this isn't physical

00:55:37but at least I've seen

00:55:38you know

00:55:38yeah

00:55:39that someone came to me

00:55:41and touched me

00:55:41or

00:55:42I don't know I'm touching

00:55:43it's steady on

00:55:45but you know

00:55:46trade union movements

00:55:47had enough of that

00:55:47or it can be

00:55:48it can be virtual

00:55:50and even that

00:55:51isn't happening

00:55:52because

00:55:52yeah

00:55:53it could be a video

00:55:55could be

00:55:56you know

00:55:56I've found that

00:55:57actually the distinction

00:55:59between video and in person

00:56:01is not that different

00:56:01I don't mean just a generic email

00:56:03from head office

00:56:04that went to

00:56:05dear old workers

00:56:06yeah I wouldn't count that

00:56:07but I mean just

00:56:08just hasn't been asked

00:56:08I mean

00:56:09and that's true

00:56:09I mean if you look at the

00:56:10if you look at the level

00:56:12certainly the level of density

00:56:13in most of Europe

00:56:14then you add to that

00:56:16the very low

00:56:17level of

00:56:18coverage for shop stewards

00:56:20and so on

00:56:20and then you add to that

00:56:22so many of the shop stewards

00:56:23that currently are in position

00:56:25that might not even think

00:56:27that it is their job

00:56:28to go and ask new people

00:56:29to join the union

00:56:29I can easily see

00:56:31how the vast majority

00:56:31of people

00:56:32then when you talk about

00:56:33young workers

00:56:34and so on

00:56:34they are mostly working

00:56:36in our lowest

00:56:38density sectors

00:56:39you know

00:56:40anyway

00:56:41which you know

00:56:42we can come back to

00:56:42but

00:56:43no I think that

00:56:44if you talk about

00:56:45the actual issues

00:56:46if you talk about

00:56:46the underlying problems

00:56:47of course people

00:56:48it's only going to get

00:56:49worse and worse

00:56:50but it's certainly

00:56:51not the case

00:56:51that people will

00:56:52automatically go

00:56:53I need a union

00:56:54I think that

00:56:55very often

00:56:57people will just

00:56:58get angry and angry

00:56:59and unless

00:56:59this is why

00:57:00I'm saying that

00:57:01when we go back

00:57:02to the communication

00:57:03issue

00:57:04I don't want

00:57:05to necessarily

00:57:06see unions

00:57:07investing loads of money

00:57:09on social media teams

00:57:10and communications

00:57:12and so

00:57:13so that we can compete

00:57:14with the far right

00:57:15narratives

00:57:15we are never going

00:57:16to have the resources

00:57:17to out compete

00:57:18the dark forces

00:57:19that are trying

00:57:20to do that

00:57:21so why

00:57:22you know

00:57:23like

00:57:23you should always

00:57:25shift the terrain

00:57:25to a place

00:57:27where we're good

00:57:27and you know

00:57:28we have the advantage

00:57:29and you have the disadvantage

00:57:30whereas that

00:57:30in actual speaking

00:57:32to people

00:57:32on the shop floor

00:57:33speaking to each other

00:57:34that they don't have

00:57:35so we move

00:57:36that's why we need

00:57:37to move our

00:57:37resources

00:57:38and our strategy

00:57:39in terms of

00:57:40encouraging those

00:57:41you know

00:57:41those conversations

00:57:42but it

00:57:43but it's not

00:57:44something that

00:57:45is necessarily

00:57:46been done

00:57:48in the past

00:57:48and it's also

00:57:49very difficult

00:57:50to

00:57:50I can think

00:57:51of many

00:57:51times with unions

00:57:52that I've worked

00:57:53with over the years

00:57:53where you will even

00:57:55run a pilot

00:57:56you know

00:57:56so we do a training

00:57:57we get together

00:57:58all of the

00:57:59the officials

00:58:00we do a training

00:58:01with leaders

00:58:01we do with the

00:58:02with the organizers

00:58:03then we go into

00:58:04the shop floor level

00:58:06we do a

00:58:07you know

00:58:07a one or two day

00:58:08training with the

00:58:08actual workplace leaders

00:58:10and then they go out

00:58:11and they

00:58:12and they carry out

00:58:13a campaign

00:58:13which they have decided

00:58:14we don't tell them

00:58:15to do it

00:58:15we just

00:58:16provide a

00:58:18framework

00:58:18we have a

00:58:19structured

00:58:19series of

00:58:20discussions

00:58:21where the

00:58:21conclusion

00:58:22is that the

00:58:23the shop stewards

00:58:24themselves have

00:58:25the pen in their

00:58:25hand and they

00:58:26commit to each

00:58:27other what

00:58:27they're going to

00:58:27go and do in

00:58:28their company

00:58:28this week

00:58:29this month

00:58:30this year

00:58:30and they're far

00:58:31more likely to go

00:58:32and do it when

00:58:32they've committed

00:58:32to each other

00:58:33not because they

00:58:34got an email

00:58:35from head office

00:58:35you know what I

00:58:36mean so

00:58:36you get them

00:58:37you know

00:58:38to go and

00:58:39to go and

00:58:40do that

00:58:41but the

00:58:42culture issue

00:58:42is still

00:58:43really really

00:58:44profound

00:58:44because we've

00:58:45got so many

00:58:45cases

00:58:46where we've

00:58:47run you know

00:58:47do all of those

00:58:48trainings

00:58:48go out

00:58:49and have

00:58:50fantastic results

00:58:51you know

00:58:51new collective

00:58:52bargaining agreement

00:58:53you know

00:58:54hundred new

00:58:54members

00:58:55loads of new

00:58:56activists

00:58:56whatever it may

00:58:56be

00:58:57and then you

00:58:58take that

00:58:58and you consider

00:58:59that within

00:59:00union

00:59:00and say look

00:59:00imagine if we

00:59:01did that

00:59:01in every

00:59:02workplace

00:59:05leave it with

00:59:07us

00:59:07and you know

00:59:08it's very easy

00:59:09to drift back

00:59:10to the old

00:59:11way of doing

00:59:12things

00:59:12unless there's

00:59:13people there

00:59:13to kind of

00:59:14push it every

00:59:15day

00:59:15you know

00:59:16it's not the

00:59:16job of

00:59:17the whole

00:59:18purpose I think

00:59:19of people like

00:59:20me

00:59:20and people who

00:59:22you know

00:59:22much more

00:59:23important people

00:59:24who are doing

00:59:24it within their

00:59:24own unions

00:59:26is not necessarily

00:59:27to tell people

00:59:28something that

00:59:29they don't

00:59:29already know

00:59:30but to be

00:59:31there to

00:59:32continue to

00:59:32apply pressure

00:59:33after it

00:59:35would be

00:59:35quite easy

00:59:35to slip

00:59:36back into

00:59:37old ways

00:59:38and I don't

00:59:39mean to be

00:59:40so self

00:59:41aggrandizing

00:59:41here but

00:59:42like kind

00:59:42of be the

00:59:43conscience

00:59:43of pushing

00:59:45people and

00:59:45also you

00:59:46know the

00:59:46real benefit

00:59:47that I

00:59:48have and

00:59:49me and

00:59:50the people

00:59:50I work

00:59:51with have

00:59:51is that

00:59:52when we

00:59:53go to work

00:59:54with a

00:59:54union we

00:59:55can be

00:59:55the bad

00:59:56cop

00:59:56you know

00:59:57I mean

00:59:57we can

00:59:57obviously

00:59:58not too

00:59:58bad we

00:59:58want them

00:59:59to still

00:59:59affiliate

01:00:00but you

01:00:01know we

01:00:01can be

01:00:02more provocative

01:00:02we can

01:00:03we can

01:00:03push in

01:00:04a way

01:00:04that it's

01:00:05just you

01:00:05just can't

01:00:06do when

01:00:06you're inside

01:00:07an organization

01:00:07I always

01:00:08make this

01:00:08joke with

01:00:09a lot of

01:00:10the unions

01:00:10I work

01:00:11with where

01:00:11you know I

01:00:12can go and

01:00:12work with

01:00:12your leadership

01:00:13and say

01:00:13oh that's

01:00:13a great

01:00:14idea Ben

01:00:14oh wow

01:00:15Ben knows

01:00:15stuff about

01:00:16organizing

01:00:16you think

01:00:17when I go

01:00:17back to

01:00:18the internal

01:00:18meetings of

01:00:19my own

01:00:19organization

01:00:19people say

01:00:20that no

01:00:21because that's

01:00:22not about

01:00:22my organization

01:00:23that's just

01:00:23how organizations

01:00:25are you know

01:00:26I can go

01:00:27and say

01:00:27something to

01:00:29either the

01:00:29you know

01:00:30either the

01:00:31shop stewards

01:00:31the leaders

01:00:31whatever of

01:00:32a union

01:00:32and how

01:00:33many times

01:00:34I've had

01:00:34those

01:00:35conversations

01:00:35and they're

01:00:36like yeah

01:00:36yeah yeah

01:00:37and then

01:00:38afterwards

01:00:38the head

01:00:39of organizing

01:00:39of that

01:00:40union

01:00:40goes

01:00:40what the

01:00:41fuck

01:00:41I've been

01:00:41telling them

01:00:42that for

01:00:42the last

01:00:4210 years

01:00:43and you go

01:00:44yeah sometimes

01:00:44it's just

01:00:45good to have

01:00:46someone else

01:00:46come and say

01:00:47the same

01:00:47thing

01:00:47you know

01:00:49so in

01:00:50terms of

01:00:50the future

01:00:51I think

01:00:52that you

01:00:52know I

01:00:53don't want

01:00:54to be

01:00:54when you

01:00:55think that

01:00:55I'm negative

01:00:55here I think

01:00:56there are lots

01:00:56of unions

01:00:57who are doing

01:00:57good stuff

01:00:58and I think

01:00:58there's lots

01:00:59of unions

01:00:59who will do

01:01:00well but I

01:01:01think there's

01:01:01also lots

01:01:02of unions

01:01:03and union

01:01:03organizations

01:01:04because let's

01:01:05include like

01:01:05the internationals

01:01:06and so on

01:01:06in that

01:01:08that need

01:01:09to do a

01:01:10hell of a lot

01:01:10more and I

01:01:11think that

01:01:11I quite

01:01:13thinking that

01:01:13you know

01:01:14someone else

01:01:14will fix

01:01:14this you know

01:01:15and you see

01:01:16that you know

01:01:17from increasing

01:01:17from the fall

01:01:18of affiliation

01:01:19that we have

01:01:19from affiliates

01:01:21you know

01:01:21to using

01:01:22external funding

01:01:23and so on

01:01:24and you know

01:01:25the amount

01:01:26of our

01:01:26resources

01:01:27that come

01:01:28from actually

01:01:28affiliate

01:01:29unions

01:01:30wanting to

01:01:30affiliate to

01:01:31us is

01:01:31lower than

01:01:32it used

01:01:32to be

01:01:33and is

01:01:33likely to

01:01:33continue

01:01:34so

01:01:34and we see

01:01:35that replicated

01:01:36in national

01:01:36unions

01:01:39but I don't

01:01:40think

01:01:40and you know

01:01:41and I don't

01:01:42want to tower

01:01:42everyone with

01:01:43the same brush

01:01:43here because

01:01:44we've got some

01:01:44fantastic union

01:01:45leaders who

01:01:45know this

01:01:46and are doing

01:01:46everything they

01:01:47can to

01:01:48change course

01:01:49but lots

01:01:50are not

01:01:50if we're

01:01:51honest

01:01:51you know

01:01:51so we

01:01:52have

01:01:53a kind

01:01:53of mixed

01:01:56picture

01:01:56a mixed

01:01:57picture I

01:01:57would say

01:01:58maybe a

01:01:59generational

01:02:00exchange

01:02:01needs to

01:02:01happen

01:02:02and new

01:02:03blood

01:02:03and god

01:02:04knows

01:02:04because

01:02:04as I said

01:02:06the situation

01:02:06is so dire

01:02:07that it

01:02:08can't be hidden

01:02:08for too long

01:02:09from the

01:02:10eyes and

01:02:11consciousness

01:02:11of working

01:02:12people

01:02:12what's going

01:02:13on

01:02:13anyway

01:02:14so we

01:02:14wanted to

01:02:15do it

01:02:15for one

01:02:16hour

01:02:16so here

01:02:17we are

01:02:18at one

01:02:19hour mark

01:02:20so Ben

01:02:21thank you

01:02:21very much

01:02:22and I

01:02:24could talk

01:02:24with you

01:02:25for hours

01:02:26but we

01:02:27only had

01:02:28this one

01:02:29so let's

01:02:31end it

01:02:32here and

01:02:33maybe in

01:02:34a few

01:02:34months or

01:02:35in a year

01:02:36or wherever

01:02:36we can talk

01:02:37again about

01:02:39what happened

01:02:40and how is

01:02:41the situation

01:02:42because maybe

01:02:43it will improve

01:02:44who knows

01:02:45maybe you are

01:02:46too negative

01:02:46maybe I'll be

01:02:48more positive

01:02:48I'll mellow

01:02:50in my old

01:02:51age

01:02:51I hope so

TALKS - 35 - LEAD ORGANISER OF UNI EUROPE

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