00:00They published their annual quarterback tiers this week.
00:03The Browns finding their way to the basement of this thing when it comes to tiers.
00:08And again, it's based on individual quarterback play, and they've got criteria.
00:13They had 50 folks vote on it.
00:16It was a panel of 50 coaches and executives, and Mike right now is on the Wiseheart Right.
00:23We make it right.
00:24Call Kyle Right hotline.
00:26Mike, thanks a million for being with us.
00:28We do appreciate you.
00:30Hello, Mike.
00:31Hey, it's good to be here.
00:32And I can tell you, there is hope because I did a thing with Chicago this year.
00:37For the first time since I've been doing this in 2014, they had a quarterback higher than the third tier.
00:44So it can happen.
00:45It can happen.
00:46Man, you have just set the bar so high for us right now.
00:49I'm so excited.
00:51You know, when you're in Cleveland, I mean, look, if you're going to be somewhere, you may as well lean
00:55into it.
00:55And the Browns own the basement of this thing between Shador Sanders and Deshaun Watson.
01:00Just, you know, when you saw the results come in from the panel of 50 coaches and executives, surprises, not
01:06surprises.
01:07And then if you could gear me an answer towards Cleveland, because I don't even think we're surprised in Cleveland
01:11that, you know, the Browns ended up so low in this thing.
01:15No, so a little bit of a surprise.
01:18I mean, clarity at the top with only four in tier one.
01:21So, you know, we've seen we've seen Lamar Jackson be in tier one.
01:25And he was in two this year as his rushing kind of dried up last year.
01:29So that's that was notable.
01:31I think Dak Prescott moving up five spots from 12 to seven surprised me because was there something new to
01:37learn about him?
01:38You know, it seems like he's a good pro quarterback.
01:40But I think there's, you know, there's appreciation for the guys now who kind of run the show a bit.
01:47The league is so young at quarterback.
01:48So many of the veteran quarterbacks, the Matt Ryans, you know, the good, not greats, Alex Smith have retired.
01:57And I think are a little bit missed from the from the guys who appreciate the quarterback who is not
02:04totally schemed up, but maybe in control of the offense.
02:08So he went up a little bit.
02:10I thought it was interesting to see, you know, these classes of quarterbacks kind of like Drake May ahead of
02:17Caleb Williams, you know, with Bo Nix winning all those games.
02:23It's still being lower at the top of tier three.
02:25I think those are interesting discussion points.
02:29Tyler Shuck is somebody who's low on this list of from New Orleans, but everybody who played him really liked
02:35him.
02:35So I think he has a chance to sort of, you know, rocket up this thing if those people are
02:40right.
02:41Mike, I'm sure you and the other folks at The Athletic have thoughts in mind as you get into this
02:46thing.
02:47Did anything stun you in the top tier?
02:51Anybody who wasn't there?
02:53Anybody who was or anybody high in the second tier?
02:57No, there's no stunning at all.
02:59Well, it's, you know, Lamar Jackson is going to be a story every year, whether he's in tier one or
03:03not.
03:03He's gone back.
03:04You know, he was last year, wasn't this year.
03:06So I knew, you know, it's kind of me personally when he's in tier one, it's easier because it's just
03:12less of a discussion point of explaining for the thousandth time, you know, what, how the tiers are defined.
03:18And he doesn't perfectly fit.
03:20And if he's not running, you know, dynamically, you know, it's hard to make sense of if you're a, if
03:29you know that he's a superstar two-time MVP.
03:32So I think that's one that you just deal with every year, depending on where he's at.
03:36But otherwise, I think the top tier came out great.
03:41Mahomes getting one tier two vote, fine with me.
03:43Mahomes being at the top, fine with me.
03:46You know, and I think, I think Allen and Stafford need to be up there.
03:51And then there's a debate.
03:52I think there's a little bit of a Burrow-Lamar debate.
03:55Why does Burrow get so many tier one votes when he's had some injuries?
04:00And yet Lamar doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.
04:02You know, I think that that's really what the top tier is about.
04:06Matthew Stafford had an unbelievable year last year.
04:09And I was a little surprised to see him ranked as number two.
04:13I think he's terrific.
04:13But obviously, the folks around the NFL think the guy can still get it done in that offense with McVay
04:20and some pretty good weapons out there.
04:22I wonder how long he can sustain that level of play.
04:26And that's really the only reason he got two, you know, two out of 50 people gave him a tier
04:30two on, you know, a little bit of age concern and just how long can he do it.
04:34And also, you know, I think they've done a good job the last couple years of making sure they're running
04:41the ball and putting them under center and giving them a little bit of an easier time than when, I
04:48think, when they first got him, Sean McVay was so in love with having a quarterback who could drop back
04:53in the peer drop back game, which is harder.
04:56And it probably wasn't as sustainable.
04:59So I think it's a nice, a real nice balance right there now.
05:02Yeah, Mike, I think the other interesting thing is how close it is, you know, on that tier one that
05:07it's, I mean, it's one vote, right?
05:09Between Stafford and Allen and Mahomes.
05:11So, I mean, all three of those guys really, I mean, I don't know how you could, trust me, sitting
05:17here at Cleveland, I would kill to have any of those guys here playing quarterbacks.
05:20But that vote is so tight.
05:24It's so tight and so overwhelmingly strong, isn't it?
05:27And there's kind of a 1B, 2A group that is Lamar, Jackson, Justin Herbert, and, you know, the high two
05:35Dak Prescott this year shot into that.
05:39If you're the Browns and you look at guys who were ranked above Deshaun Watson, Malik Willis is up there,
05:46Geno Smith, Kirk Cousins, guys you could have brought in.
05:49Should they have brought somebody in?
05:51Or does this scream to you, Mike, that, okay, they have what they have now and they picked up assets
05:57in the Miles Garrett trade and boy would Dante Moore or Arch Manning look good in an orange helmet next
06:02year?
06:03That's exactly what it feels like to me.
06:05Of course, if you're evaluating every season as an opportunity and you're always pushing to be the best you can
06:12be in any given season, they surely could have done more and should have.
06:16But I think, you know, no one, no team has been more willing to play this sort of future game
06:25at the expense of the present that you just wish the future would get there so they could have a
06:30good present.
06:31Mike, how do you get 50 guys to do this?
06:35So I've been covering the league for 30 years, so I know a lot of people.
06:39I would say the last 20, this is my 29th year.
06:42And then the last 10 years or so, I've really, my role has shifted into, you know, doing a lot
06:50of research.
06:52And a lot of that research that I do is interesting to people with teams, so I've developed a lot
06:57of good relationships that way.
07:00The people with the teams have been very good to me in terms of, you know, when I show up
07:04with some questions or putting together some research, it's interesting with them.
07:08We have discussions.
07:09I learn a ton from them.
07:10So I think that trust builds up over that.
07:14You know, when I come into a team or in talking to people, because of the nature of the tempo
07:20of my writing, when I talk to someone, there's not a story the next day.
07:24You know what I mean?
07:25And so I think a lot of today's media is at a disadvantage because everything's on Twitter quickly.
07:31And the teams are now controlling, well, every press conference is going live on the team website.
07:38Yep.
07:39And I feel lucky and fortunate in my timing to have come up before that when you could, you know,
07:45really spend time with people.
07:47I can remember as a beat reporter, you know, walking off the practice field on Friday before the game and
07:52having the offensive coordinator give me the game plan.
07:54Hey, this is what you should look for, you know.
07:56And you weren't going to write it that next day, but you were so educated going into the game.
08:00Yeah.
08:00That was the type of trust.
08:02So I think I've been able to have that type of a trust here where I'm going to do hopefully
08:08interesting things.
08:12But there's a lot of, it's in the spirit of kind of a learning and building towards something as opposed
08:17to the immediate turnaround, gotcha, that sort of thing.
08:22Just to follow up on that really quick.
08:24Does that, knowing that you don't have the pressure to have this thing out the next day, does that give
08:28you the opportunity to kind of,
08:30sink your teeth into it a little bit more to write it?
08:32And does it give the folks on the other side the opportunity to come back to you the next day?
08:37You know what?
08:37I said that, but I know you haven't gone to print yet, but I kind of rethought that.
08:41Has that ever happened in your 13 years?
08:43Sure.
08:44Yeah.
08:44Sure, definitely.
08:45But I also have a feel of what to include in the story and not.
08:49You know, there's certainly things in the story that I could put in there.
08:53I'm conscious of fairness to the players, too.
08:56You know, when you're giving somebody anonymity, I think then you have to be careful not to make it be
09:01personal shots.
09:02I think, you know, there will be some pointy elbows comments in there sometimes.
09:06You know, I think J.J. McCarthy got one that was, you know, football looks hard for him.
09:10Or Shadur Sanders had one where somebody said, you know, I'd sleep like a baby if I could play him
09:15every week.
09:17I wrestle with whether to include those, and I make a real effort to not go overboard and to balance
09:23out, you know, in like Shadur's case.
09:26It wasn't necessarily representative of the whole group to have somebody with a positive thought about what Todd Monken could
09:33do for him and just a fresh start.
09:35But I included it because I just I think it's unfair to just have everything be, you know, over the
09:43top, dropping the elbow on people.
09:45That's not what we're trying to do.
09:46We're trying to I want the reader to come away with a variety of perspectives and a feel for what
09:52they're thinking.
09:53And if we can do that with, you know, a few of those in there that you might get a
09:56chuckle out of, then I think it's good.
09:59Mike Sando joining us from The Athletic is quarterback tears piece out right now.
10:03Go to The Athletic, read it.
10:04It's fascinating.
10:05You mentioned the line I was just going to ask you where one defensive coordinator said about Shadur, I sleep
10:11like a baby.
10:12If I could play him every week, this one hurts.
10:15He's inaccurate at all three levels from an exec.
10:18I can't tell if he's going to get better, but there's a huge gap between him and competent quarterback play.
10:24You mentioned something else about Todd Monken and Todd might be able to help him like Ben Johnson helped Caleb
10:32Williams in Chicago.
10:33So let me ask, is it more likely that Shadur benefits from a guy like Todd Monken or that Deshaun
10:41Watson benefits from a guy like Todd Monken getting his career back on track?
10:46What do you think?
10:50I think that they, I don't want to cop out on this, but I think that they both can from
10:54the standpoint of this.
10:57When you have a coach who doesn't mince words, that was Ben Johnson last year.
11:01So obviously Caleb Williams at this stage of his career is more talented than Watson and Shadur.
11:08So there's a higher ceiling.
11:09I'm not comparing the two players, but Caleb kind of had a vibe about him that rubs some people the
11:15wrong way, right?
11:16That he's got it kind of figured out.
11:17And a lot of those coaches that were there last year seemed to have trashed him in a piece that
11:22came out.
11:23It wasn't an athletic piece.
11:24I think it was in the go long TD, you know, that Tyler Dunn does.
11:30And yet, you know, Ben Johnson came in and was super direct.
11:36And I feel like Caleb Williams responded to that.
11:38You know, there was a quote in his piece last year.
11:40This guy's either going to be a two or a four real quick.
11:44Be what he takes to the coaching.
11:46And so I think somebody like Deshaun Watson, who, you know, got anointed with that fully guaranteed deal.
11:54Entitlement comes with that.
11:56He knows he hasn't had the pressure on him to perform to get his money.
12:02And Shadur, who has a pretty unique pedigree, you know, being the son of Deion Sanders and all of it
12:08comes with that.
12:10He has had probably an easier path than some others because of that.
12:15And so there's a there's a vibe he gives off, too.
12:18Like, hey, I've kind of got this figured out.
12:20It's going to be a little bit on my terms.
12:21Right. And I think when you get hard coaching come in, there's brass tacks and direct.
12:27It doesn't guarantee that those guys are going to come around.
12:30But it's much better than someone coming in to be their friend, if that makes sense.
12:35It gives you a chance, I think.
12:37And that's what both of those guys, I think, could use right now.
12:39So over the 13 years of doing this, how has the survey changed itself?
12:44And then just your interpretation of what you see over 13 years, how has it changed?
12:49So the first year was my first year.
12:51And the second year, maybe as a national reporter, I only had 26 people in it.
12:54So it was harder for me to get as many people.
12:58So it's much better now because of my contacts.
13:02I mean, I cap it at 50, you know.
13:04And I can get all the ballots in a month, five weeks, you know, without just absolutely sweating.
13:13That's with taking the weekends off in the offseason and stuff.
13:15I can do it.
13:17So that is a totally different thing for me to be able to not worry about.
13:21I used to be like, oh, my gosh, am I going to get this thing done?
13:24And now it's a lot more fun.
13:26I think the makeup of the quarterbacks has changed a lot.
13:29We've seen the position get a lot younger.
13:33Some of that through the just natural ebbs and flows of some of those guys who just wouldn't retire.
13:38You know, Phillip Rivers' Eli Manning's, Matt Ryan's, Stafford's still hanging on but not for much longer.
13:44Rodgers is kind of, you know, on his way out.
13:46But there were just a ton of Phillip Rivers' even Alex Smith's, guys like that, that weren't the top tier
13:53but had played a lot of football.
13:54And I feel like now there's so many young guys, Jaden Daniels, you know, even Sam Darnold's still kind of
14:03young.
14:03But, you know, Trevor Lawrence's, Jordan Love's, there's just so many Bryce Young's, C.J. Stroud's, Bo Nix.
14:12You know, I think now the teams are recognizing that we have to change the way we, what we ask
14:20of these guys.
14:21We can't just expect them to be the finished product that runs the whole system.
14:26That's always kind of been the goal.
14:28I think it's frankly why Dak Prescott rose.
14:30You know, people appreciate that.
14:31But that's a huge change in just the makeup of these quarterbacks.
14:35Mike, great stuff.
14:36Always read it every year.
14:37We're in 13.
14:38We'll be in for the 14th year as well.
14:40We appreciate you.
14:41I love it.
14:42Thank you, Mike.
14:43Make sure you're reading them in The Athletic every day, too.
14:45Thank you, Mike.
14:45All right, we'll talk to you soon.
14:46Yeah, we'll see you.
14:47All right.
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