Back to Finish the Mission: Mike Detwiler on the Future of Mortgage Manufacturing

HousingWire

In this episode of Power House, HousingWire CEO Clayton Collins speaks to Mike Detwiler about his return to the industry as CEO of Mortgage Cadence more than a decade after selling the company to Accenture, offering a rare perspective on how mortgage technology has evolved and where it’s headed next.   Detwiler reflects on founding Mortgage Cadence in 1999 and his early vision of “manufacturing mortgages” through data, workflow, and automation. Now, with AI, intelligent automation, and advanced analytics reshaping the landscape, he argues the industry is at another inflection point.   The conversation explores the competitive LOS market, the rise of new technology entrants, and Mortgage Cadence’s growth strategy with PartnerOne. Detwiler also shares leadership insights from his experience as a founder and investor, emphasizing team empowerment and long-term thinking.   Looking ahead, he connects technology innovation to a broader challenge: restoring confidence in homeownership for the next generation.   Related to this episode:   Mike Detwiler's LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeldetwiler2/  Mortgage Cadence  https://www.mortgagecadence.com/   The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:09Very few leaders in the housing industry, specifically in technology, have experience

00:16going from startup to scaling to enterprise on multiple businesses. The gentleman that I had

00:24the opportunity to host today on Powerhouse. He's one of the most experienced technology

00:30and solutions professionals in the housing industry. He has seen many businesses inside

00:36and out, both as a founder, as an operator, an investor, and a board member. Today, we

00:42get to learn a little more about his career, but we also have a special announcement, a

00:46special reveal, something that's been in the works for a bit, and we're excited to bring

00:50it to the spotlight today. Mr. Mike Detweiler, welcome to Powerhouse.

00:55Thanks, Clayton. It's great to be here. Great to see you. Thank you for the opportunity to

00:58have a chat this morning.

01:00Man, I'm going to bury the lead a little bit for our listeners. We're going to get to it

01:04quickly, but I want to go back to 1999, Mike. 1999, you're the co-founder of a business that's

01:10going to take the housing industry by storm. Tell us what motivated that launch and what

01:16that business was. Well, early days, we were finding opportunities where we had customers

01:24that really wanted to operate off of a single database. We had customers that had multiple

01:29offices, but they weren't connected from a technological perspective. We found ourselves

01:35writing reports and reporting databases and reporting tools and creating extracts and workflow

01:42engines. We realized, wow, most industry is very disconnected, but it seems like the mortgage

01:51lending business is very disconnected. This is early days for wide area networking, early

01:58days for technology, early days even when the internet was first being formed in the early

02:052000s. That was the opportunity that we saw and that we capitalized on back there in 1999, 2000.

02:14That business is what the industry knows today as mortgage cadence. Were you coming with a mortgage

02:20background when you identified this opportunity or what gave you the institutional or industry

02:27knowledge to take a swing at such a big problem?

02:31It was interesting. I actually came out of manufacturing. I had worked with my father. We

02:37founded and worked a multinational manufacturing business in my early 20s. When I came into the

02:47mortgage business, I didn't have a ton of experience. I was still very young, but I viewed everything through

02:53the lens of manufacturing. We started talking about how we're manufacturing mortgages. When I first

02:59started saying that, people didn't know what I was saying. They didn't really understand it. Like,

03:04what do you mean manufacturing mortgages? I'm like, well, ultimately you're collecting data and then you're

03:10building that data into a model that then you test that model against whether or not it's going to fit

03:16for

03:17purpose for what you're trying to achieve. Then when it is, you say yes and then you go and consummate

03:22the build and then you complete the mortgage. They're like, okay, we're still not really sure what you're

03:27talking about. Through that process, I got to learn a lot about the mortgage industry. I didn't come

03:34with industry expertise. I didn't come from the lender side. I came from the manufacturing side,

03:41but very quickly learned that there was a lot of opportunity to improve the manufacturing process

03:47in mortgage. That was what became the catalyst for mortgage cadence.

03:51It's funny that you were using that terminology 27 years ago. I still feel like executives in the

03:58mortgage industry are still kind of like dipping their toe in and testing the terminology of mortgage

04:03manufacturing. It is a product that despite the fact that we all originate, package, and sell the

04:11same 30-year fixed rate product for the most part, seems to have a high degree of variance and process

04:19and tech stack and the tools it takes to close a loan across a lot of different lenders. Very few

04:28lenders run the same exact manufacturing process, so it feels pretty custom. How do you think that

04:34mortgage manufacturing mindset has changed since 1999, 27 years ago? It feels like ages. Sorry to age you.

04:41Yeah, it does feel like ages. I think that you're right. People still somewhat hesitate. People talk a lot

04:51about their LOS, and people talk a lot about their imaging solution, and people talk a lot about all

04:58the different things that they're using to, quote, manufacture the mortgage. And then, lo and behold,

05:04mid-2023, generative AI shows up, and then everybody's like, what is this? What's a deepfake?

05:10And then, 2024, people start to say, oh, this is a real opportunity. And now, I think we're in the

05:16place where there's this gap that's been created, because people are still trying to figure out what

05:21manufacturing a mortgage means, and now they're jumping all the way to agents and identification of the

05:29mortgage process, while still not actually knowing, in my view, or having a vision for, well, how do you

05:36deploy, if you haven't figured out how to deploy your team members to better manufacture a mortgage,

05:40how are you going to deploy agents to manufacture a mortgage? So, I do think it's still very relevant,

05:47and I think that there's huge opportunity, which is, you know, why I'm thrilled to...

05:52Oh, you're going to grand reveal us here, Mike?

05:55No.

05:55So, let's jump into this. Let's talk about the greatest boomerang, the greatest executive boomerang

05:59that I have seen in quite a while here. So, Mike, started the business in 1999, ran it, built it,

06:06sold to Accenture, and then led Mortgage, as well as some other business lines inside of Accenture,

06:15you know, before jumping out on a, you know, a path of dealmaking and investing that we'll get to a

06:20little bit later. But let's just jump right into it. Mike, you got something that's doing here.

06:25There's a deal that's been announced and a new leader coming into the seat. Give us the details.

06:30Yeah, I'm thrilled to announce, Clayton, with you. Best place to do it. And, you know, you and I go

06:36way

06:36back, I think, early days, even with you when you came into this industry. So, I think it's very,

06:42very apropos that I'm on your powerhouse podcast to announce that I'm back as CEO of Mortgage Cadence.

06:50Um, I had absolutely no idea in my wildest dreams that this was going to be an opportunity that was

06:58presented to me. But, um, the stars aligned, so to speak. Um, and it was presented to me and I

07:06was

07:06thrilled to be in a place where I could come back, um, and actually bring all that I've learned over

07:12the past several years back to manufacturing mortgages with more tools, more knowledge, um,

07:19and still a great team of a lot of folks that have been with Mortgage Cadence, you know, since we

07:24sold

07:24the business back in, uh, 2013 to Accenture. Now, I'm sure knowing how these things work, I,

07:31I'm sure you've been deep talking to employees and, and clients and, and the new investors over the,

07:37the last few months, give us your appraisal of, of the business. How, how has the product suite,

07:44the technology changed from when you were last in the executive seat and, you know, where are you

07:50excited to take Mortgage Cadence now that you have this, you know, second opportunity to come back into

07:55leadership of the organization? Yeah. Well, first of all, again, just thrilled to have this second

08:02opportunity. Like, as you said, the boomerang, I never would have imagined it happened. Um, my

08:09assessment of the business, I, I probably the best story I can tell is early, early days. I sat down

08:14with the team. Uh, the team is all over the world, but we still have a large contingency of folks

08:21here

08:21in Colorado. I'm still in Colorado. Um, we sat down in the conference room and I said, give me a

08:28demo.

08:28I want to see what's different. And, you know, much of Mortgage Cadence is embedded in my mind.

08:35You know, I remember early, early days and version 1.0 and our first customers and all of that. And

08:41so

08:42I, I sit down and I'm sitting there with anticipation and they bring up the demo and they start showing

08:48it

08:48to me and I'm just sitting there and I'm taking it all in. And, you know, I said, walk me

08:53through as

08:53if I was a prospect and they, they're, they're going through it. And there's a little bit of nervousness

08:57because there's new folks that don't know me. And, you know, this is the founder of Mortgage

09:02Cadence. And so there's a little of strangeness, I guess I would say.

09:06I can only imagine. I mean, that's gotta be so weird for the, like the sales engineers and your,

09:12your key, your key account people that are like, Oh geez, I'm, this isn't just a client. This is the

09:16guy who initially built this. It's gotta be a strange feeling for them.

09:20It very much seemed to be, they worked through it, but it was, it was, you know, they're like,

09:25you know, they didn't really quite know what to say. So I said, listen, just,

09:29I assume I know nothing, just let's go through it. And at the end of that, you know, I hour

09:36and a

09:36half and I asked some questions along the way, but tried not to derail. Just, you know, let's show me

09:41everything we got. How do we, how do we view the manufacturing of a mortgage? And it was, I was

09:46really pleased to find that, you know, the team was like, we, that's what we say. We talk about

09:51manufacturing mortgages. And it was funny because they didn't know that that like actually was how

09:56we talked about it back in the day. They were like, wow, Mike knows about manufacturing mortgages.

10:00He talks like we do. And so that was kind of interesting. But when that was over, I said,

10:05I said, guys, if I had this system back in the early two thousands, we would have taken the market.

10:12We would have taken the market, like the user, the UX, the capability. There's still work,

10:21obviously, to be done. There always is, especially as things move toward the future of where I think

10:26technology is going. But thrilled with what I saw, thrilled with what the team has done,

10:33thrilled with the investments that Accenture has made. And so just really excited to be back.

10:39So it's come a long way. And I would say it's modernized. And it was always, you know,

10:45people always say it's ready for primetime, but primetime moves, right? Primetime changes. I'd say

10:51it's ready for primetime today and ready for what I believe is going to be an agentic future for

10:58mortgage and all that that means. An agentic future for mortgage. I love that. All right. So

11:04you're, you're evaluating where cadence has gone in the, in the last few years, but you're also

11:10walking into back into a, a loan origination technology landscape that has changed a lot

11:16in the last few years. We have Ellie May that that's now, um, ice mortgage technology, um, and

11:22power is, is part of Constellation. Uh, we have, we have new entrants like, like Vesta that are,

11:29that are in this space. How do you look at the, the landscape and, you know, think about your, um,

11:35your go to market on, uh, for mortgage cadence under your leadership?

11:39Yeah. First, you're absolutely right. The landscape has changed. Um, I still like you call

11:49ice Ellie May and I mean ice. And, you know, so I remember when that was contour, I remember

11:57that far back. So, um, a lot has changed. Um, when I look at the landscape, I, I remember I'm

12:04brought

12:04back to the last NBA show that I went to. Um, it was, uh, in Austin, Texas. At that point,

12:14I was an

12:14investor and board member in class valuation. Um, and we had brought a tiny home into the show hall.

12:21I don't know if anybody remembers that, but there was a, we had a home in there and we were

12:24showing our,

12:25our digital scan technology, which, you know, was our big claim to fame and getting that approved

12:31by Fannie and Freddie back in the day. But that was sitting in that tiny home, having a conversation,

12:36um, with, uh, John Frost and, and, and JT. I remember sitting in that little tiny home. That's

12:42funny. Yeah. John and JT are great guys still there. Um, doing great work, but that was the last

12:48MBA I was at. And I remember, you know, I, I, I was an investor in class and on the

12:55board and I walked

12:56the hall and, you know, mortgage cadence's booth literally was right across from class, but mortgage

13:02cadence was, was in my past. And so I walked the hall and as I did, I, I, I remember

13:08so vividly

13:09thinking about how mortgage cadence started. I remember the first MBA I ever went to was in San

13:16Francisco where our very first booth, I remember it vividly in my mind. I remember people coming up

13:23saying, well, what's mortgage cadence? Do you guys do servicing? What do you do? And we're still

13:28learning, you know, what do we do and how to answer those questions. But I walked the floor at the

13:32MBA in

13:32Austin and, and I thought, you know what, this market is going to change. It has to change.

13:41And I walked with a mindset from an investor perspective of who is the up and coming technology?

13:47Where is the, the mortgage cadence that was 10 or 15, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago,

13:52who is that? Who is that on this floor? That's going to make a mark. That's going to bring big

13:59and

13:59in transformative change to the space. And I thought there's always going to be new entrants

14:05coming in that are going to disrupt the players that are already in the space. And we're seeing

14:11that you, when I walked around the space, I don't remember that, that best, that, that, that, that,

14:17that we had competitors, that there was some of the competitors in the market today, they weren't

14:21around, but they are now. And there's more out there. You named a couple, but there's, I know of three

14:25or

14:25four others that are, that are moving into the LOS space that are like we were 27 years ago.

14:32So it's incumbent upon mortgage cadence and on me to define a future of how we take what many would

14:41consider a traditional LOS, a, a, an enterprise LOS that is very flexible, that, that lived through

14:50the credit crisis in 2008, 2009, but had many, many customers that were in that space and has

14:57continued to grow and expand and change and release new software. What's the future going to be? And so

15:04I believe that we have the vision and the strategy to go and execute that. We'll talk about that, I'm

15:11sure, on future podcasts as we actually execute it. But my, I'm coming into this space firmly believing

15:17that if the players that you named, including mortgage cadence, if we don't fundamentally change and

15:25deliver on the manufacturing of the mortgage in the way that it should be done, we will be disrupted, we

15:32will

15:32be dismantled, we will no longer be a player. And I say that to me and everybody else.

15:38You use the phrase traditional LOS and it does feel like when you listen to, you know, technology, you know,

15:45the, the,

15:45the largest, most impactful players, as well as the, the, the new, um, startups, the terminology is

15:51changing a little bit. And it seems like people are talking about origination technology differently.

15:54Maybe the, the, um, the expectation of what an LOS is, has changed a little bit. And, um, you know,

16:00with incorporation of a point of sale and other integrations, how do you think that world is

16:05changing? And if, am I looking at that the right way?

16:07I think you are. Um, again, I, uh, another example, I've, I've had the opportunity to go to sit with

16:14a lot of our customers over the last couple of months and sit in rooms and talk about what they

16:19think the future is, where they think the future is going. I've heard that folks want to be able to

16:25say yes to any customer that comes into their lending institution, regardless of the type of loan that

16:30they're looking for, that people understand in order to be competitive in this, in this space and to

16:36serve their customers and expand their business. They can't narrowly define what they offer from a

16:42mortgage perspective. They have to have a broader capability as far as the products that they offer.

16:47Um, and so I've heard that I've also seen a very, um, distinct, I guess I would say line. I

16:57don't

16:57know else how to define it of, of folks that, that think about the way things have been done for

17:04the

17:05last 10 or 20 years. And then folks that are in the room that don't have that context that have

17:12the

17:12vision for how things could be done. And I'm sitting in rooms with folks that are employed at the same

17:19customer and looking at the same problem incredibly differently and, and, and trying to solve it

17:28different than the past and the way that they have done in the past. And some folks are new and

17:33they

17:33don't have a past, right? They come at it with just a complete brand new perspective of, Hey, this is

17:40what we could actually do if we thought about things differently. I don't think there's a better time

17:45for me to enter back into the mortgage space. Uh, back when we came in early days, we talked a

17:52lot

17:52about rules engines and giving the ability to define your workflows and driving costs out of your

17:59lending process. It's the same conversation today. It's the same conversation. Still costs a lot of

18:05money to, to originate a mortgage. Still is very complex. Lots of compliance issues, lots of, of,

18:11of boxes to check and I's to dot and T's to cross. And, and, but I believe that there is

18:18a new

18:19opportunity to do things. So I think about the rules engine, the mortgage cadence ACE rules engine.

18:24I think about RPA. I think about workflow. I think about all those things that, that we brought to

18:30the table early days to drive costs out of the process. And then I think about what we can do

18:35with

18:36that given the capabilities today that are available with, with AI. And I'll just use that as a broad

18:42macro for, for all things that you can now do with a mind that actually can cognitively consume

18:50information and make decisions based on analytics, which historically in the mortgage industry have

18:56been done on Excel spreadsheets with human eyes. The reality is that is changing and it's going to

19:02change. And either you're going to change with it and you're going to lead the way, or you're going to

19:07be left behind. And that's really the challenge that I feel is the CEO of mortgage cadence. How do we

19:12define the future? And I have a strategy again, that's a different podcast. How are we going to march

19:18forward and redefine what manufacturing a mortgage means in a world of AI? And that's the, that's the

19:25promise that I have to deliver on, um, in order to transform the mortgage industry. So I look at this

19:30as my opportunity to finish what I started. I, by no means have been as successful as George Lucas,

19:38right? I know you probably don't know where I'm going here, Clayton. I'm not, I'm not even close.

19:42Right. But you remember George Lucas made a certain movie first because he said the technology wasn't

19:49there to do what I wanted to do. So I made this movie first, but then when technology evolved, I

19:56went

19:56back and made the prequel, right? I feel like George Lucas, I feel like everything that I didn't have back

20:05then. I have now the ability to manufacture a mortgage and do data analytics in a way that's

20:11never been able to be done before. I have that now. And the challenge I have, the mandate I have

20:17is to actually bring it to the market and do something different and think differently. And that's

20:23my commitment and my challenge and why I'm so excited. You're back in the game with better technology,

20:29but also a, um, a wider aperture and experience. So in the, since you have exited mortgage cadence,

20:38the first time you have invested in and, and led class valuation, uh, you've been involved in the

20:45acquisition and leadership of QC ally. You've been an investor and board member and, and operator with,

20:52um, uh, uh, three pillar global. Um, so you've had these other, am I missing anything there? I know

20:58there's been a lot of deals. Um, but those experiences, how do those experiences compound

21:02and educate how you think about the next stage of the business or, or is it just a technology or

21:08is

21:09it just where AI is? And that's the only big influence here. No, not at all. So those are the

21:13three big macros of experience, but underneath there are a lot of acquisitions that we did under

21:17those umbrellas partnered with private equity. So you can expect mortgage cadence to grow both

21:23organically through winning new customers, as well as growing inorganically through M and A.

21:27That's a commitment that I have, um, in partnership with partner one. Um, I've learned

21:33a lot. And so technology is obviously what I'm passionate about, what my experience is.

21:39It's what we brought to bear at, at, at, at class valuation at QC ally and at three pillar.

21:44Um, but I've also learned a lot about people. I've learned a lot about leadership. Um, you know,

21:51people will, people have heard me say this. It'll be the first time this group of people have heard me

21:56say

21:56this. I'll say, I say in some conversations for people that know me, I'll say, well,

22:01that was the 30 year old Mike Detweiler. This is the 50 year old Mike Detweiler and

22:06we're different. We think differently. And, and what I would say is that is, as I look at,

22:13at my history and the brute force that, uh, we had to bring to bear to, to get mortgage cadence

22:19to,

22:19to market. We had no outside investors. I had no private equity. We had no outside money. It was my

22:24partner and I bootstrapping it from nothing. We never had one outside dollar ever that builds

22:31character and strength. I've learned that the, the brute force way isn't always the way there's

22:40times where it's necessary, but building a team of leaders and then serving those leaders and empowering

22:47those leaders to be the best at who, who they are making all their wiring and all their capabilities,

22:55uh, putting them in a position where they can actually succeed wildly. That's how you grow and

23:00scale businesses. So I look at my job as CEO is to, to empower the team that I have, fill

23:07the gaps with

23:08team members that we need. And then how do I serve that team to be all that they can be?

23:15And then that

23:15will scale the business. I'd say that's probably the biggest learning. Now technology is going to help,

23:20but that's the biggest learning that I've had in buying and selling and investing and

23:25doing roll-ups and all of that. It's always about the people, even in an agentic world,

23:30it is still always about the people and empowering them to succeed and serving them as a leader to help

23:38them succeed versus being the end of the all. So, all right. So I think that's a phenomenal

23:45message. Like the 50 year old, uh, Mike Detweiler is not the 30 year old Mike Detweiler. And there's

23:50things to learn about scaling and leadership and empowering people that are different than taking

23:56the brute force approach. One of the reason investors, you know, love that early career

24:01entrepreneur is sometimes they don't know how hard things are and they'll just run into it with brute

24:05force without like full awareness of the challenges they're going to run into with somebody with a few

24:10more reps be like, yeah, not going there. That's not a, not a battle I want to fight. How do

24:14you bring

24:15the same level of ambition? Um, as 50 year old Mike Detweiler, what do you bring today that like

24:23helps you get even further than you able to do with the brute force approach? Well, brute force approach

24:28is only, you know, that's, that's the one man show. So that's hard, but the answer I think is found

24:33in

24:33a great book, which is, you know, didn't prove itself ultimately the theories, but I think the

24:38principles are still incredibly powerful in the book. Good to great by Jim Collins. There's a

24:42concept in there called the Stockdale paradox confront the brutal facts, but never lose hope

24:48confront the brutal facts, but never lose hope. So that's what I think I bring to the table is

24:54I understand what the brutal facts are, but I also understand that through hard work and good

24:59thinking and teamwork that you can overcome anything. Um, and so, so I think you, you,

25:06you still get the capabilities that you had when you were 30 and you're just like,

25:11we have to do this or we die. You have that, but you have, you have a broader aperture to

25:18say,

25:18we actually means all of us, not me. A lot of times when you're young, we means me. And I

25:25think as long

25:26as you get the, the, the W the M turned into a W and it's not me, it's we you'll

25:32make it.

25:33I, I got Jim's book on my shelf right behind me. I love that example, Mike. All right, Mike,

25:39tell us about partner one. Um, who, who is this new partner for you? What are their visions for

25:44the business? How are they going to enable you to win? Um, so first they hunted me down. They found

25:50me,

25:50which was great. I won't tell the story. It'll take too long, but it was a series of phone calls

25:54of

25:54people telling me that they never have spoken to me before, but they want to know if I can give

25:59my, my, my, they can get my number and give it to someone else who I've never spoken to before.

26:04That happened three times. And I ended up on a phone call with Dan Sharon, who's the CEO of partner

26:08one. Um, partner one is a very successful, uh, private equity firm, very disciplined, um, very much

26:16about empowering leaders and bringing support to leaders to help them succeed. So the same theme that I

26:23just articulated, I saw embodied and heard through the voice of Dan Sharon. When I started speaking

26:29to him early days, uh, we met face to face for 45 minutes. We shook hands and said, let's do

26:35this.

26:35And that was it. Um, Dan is as, as honest and matter of fact, and, and ready to go as

26:45anybody I've ever

26:46met. Um, I've told him what my vision is and what I want to do for the mortgage space

26:51and the mortgage sector. And he said, great, how do I help you? What can I do? Um, we're already

26:56talking to other firms about MNA. Um, you know, we may have one, uh, closed sooner than, than, than some

27:04folks might think. Um, and he's just all about helping, uh, me transform, um, the mortgage industry

27:12with the unbelievable team that we have at mortgage cadence. Um, and it, and I will say this, that the

27:18team

27:18we have at mortgage cadence is a lot of the folks that I hired, our C, our C suite is,

27:22is has at

27:24least 50% of the C suite are people that I recruited and hired back in the day. And so

27:30this is a, this is

27:31a, this is an army of, of, of leaders that know one another that have been through the battles and

27:38have the battle scars and knows that we have one another's backs. And Dan, uh, the CEO of partner one

27:44is right there with us and he fits right in and we're just thrilled to be part of partner one.

27:49Love that. And, and thanks for painting the picture on the executive team still being there. That's a,

27:54that's gotta be a cool dynamic when you sit down in that, in that executive conference room or get

27:59on the zoom call and, uh, you know, be, be back with the folks that you built with. Um, as

28:04we close

28:05out the conversation, Mike, I want to be cognizant of where we are in mortgage and housing right now. So,

28:12uh, we've come, we're coming out of a tough couple of years, um, you know, with a fast,

28:16um, rate environment that rose really quickly and, and 22 and 23, uh, elevated rates last few years,

28:23we've seen a lot of volume and people, um, exit the market. But, uh, if I'm going to, um, you

28:29know,

28:30shake my own crystal ball here and, and read the tea leaves or whatever idiom I want to use. Um,

28:35it feels like the winds are the winds coming back into the sales. And we're looking at 2026 with some,

28:40some optimism. Um, you know, I won't speak from week on week to week changes, but, uh,

28:45over the period of months and quarters, we have seen interest rates cooperating and buyers coming

28:52back into the bars and sellers coming back with a little more confidence. Um,

28:58how do you read the tea leaves? How do you think of 2026 and how does it inform your strategy?

29:03Um, we have gone through a couple of really tough years. Believe me, I've been an investor,

29:07um, in the mortgage sector. The last couple of years I've watched what's happened. I've seen the

29:13service, the, the, the, the, the changes and the challenges that the sector has, has seen. Um,

29:20I love the fact that the administration is talking so much about housing.

29:25That's the biggest change ever. Like, I mean, we were just fighting for someone to talk about

29:29housing. So the great, great point. I love that. I mean, you know, I'm not going to get into all

29:34the details of that and I'm certainly not going to get into politics, but the fact that housing

29:38and the need for supply and the impact of interest rates is on the tips of the tongues of our,

29:45uh,

29:46government is a huge, huge benefit for our industry. And I think it, it, it starts to paint a picture

29:53of,

29:54hey, this is something that we need to really think about because the American dream

29:58still is homeownership. It is. And I, I, I, I, I fly a lot for living. I'm on planes a

30:07lot and I

30:08sit by folks and I typically don't start conversations, but if someone starts a

30:11conversation with me, I'll have it. I'm kind, I try to be kind and engaged. And I was on a

30:15flight

30:16with a young person recently. It's like just two weeks ago, young, you know, he's in his twenties

30:22talking about how he's got engaged. She's in his first job, you know, asking about investing and,

30:28and, and, and he said, you know, and he started to tell me how, like he was telling me a

30:33story,

30:33justifying that why rent is a good thing. He literally convinced himself that he's never

30:39going to buy a home, that he's going to rent and he's going to set money aside. And he's built

30:43these spreadsheets that shows that the equity that he would have in his home, he'll ultimately

30:47have if he saves X amount of dollars every day for the next 30 years. And so he doesn't

30:52need to have a home. He can be happy renting. I didn't even tell him I was in the mortgage

30:57space.

30:58He was just telling me this. And I thought, holy moly, like this is, is this young man,

31:05young person representative of, of how that generation is thinking about housing. Let me tell

31:11you, Clayton, if one thing we need to do is we need to make sure people understand that home ownership

31:16matters and that the pride of home ownership matters. And you, we can't let our children

31:23or our grandchildren. And I have two now be in a situation where they're convincing themselves

31:28that renting is the right thing to do. Now the young man's strategy about investing is right,

31:33but to give up on home ownership day one, that's a problem. And it's up to us to fix that

31:39part,

31:40to be part of fixing that. And a big part of that is, um, is accurate data. I've had so

31:46many

31:46conversations in and around and leading up to the, the housing economic summit, the tweet,

31:50which we hosted earlier in February. And, um, one of the things that keeps coming up is some,

31:56some research was, was published. Uh, I think it was late in 25 that the average age of the first

32:02time home buyer crept up to 41. Um, you know, with some smart people, including folks on our team,

32:08poke some holes in that analysis pretty quickly. Um, and that it, we do not believe that to be

32:12accurate anymore. We still believe the average age of the first time homeowner, first time home buyer

32:17to be back in the low to mid thirties, you know, which is higher than we'd like to see, but

32:21it's not

32:2141. The issue when bad data like that leaks out there is it sets expectations and it gives the 32,

32:31the 28, the 32, the 35 year old, a chance to say, well, like, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, I'm not

32:36behind here.

32:37The average first time home buyer is 41. I got plenty of time to think about like when I enter

32:41the home ownership market. Um, but when we talk about building financial security and the financial

32:47and family and health benefits that come from home ownership, if you're chasing a target,

32:51that's false. And you wait until your forties to, you know, really pursue home ownership,

32:58you know, not the world, it's all measuring stick, but you're behind, like you're like financially

33:02behind and you're set and you're not setting yourself up and your family for success. You know,

33:07that's my, you know, relatively biased views, a pretty big home ownership advocate,

33:13but I believe it. And that's why I talk about it. Yep. Completely agree with you. And I'll,

33:18I know we're coming up on time here, but I'll add one last thought along those lines, you know,

33:21back to the traveling discussion. And I know you travel a lot. I can't tell you how many times

33:27I'm traveling and I'll sit down with somebody who go leaving home or going home, leaving home or going

33:31home, right? Home matters. And home ownership is not just about being behind. That's for sure

33:38a point. Your point is absolutely valid, but the security of home ownership, this is mine.

33:44I own this piece of property. I own this home that sits on this piece of property.

33:48That makes a difference in how you think about and view the world. You now have your hands in something

33:56that's yours. And that is what starts with the American, that starts the American dream. It's

34:02part of the American dream. It's not all about the American dream, but it's part about part of a big

34:05part of it. And so I would like to, to, you know, as we wrap up here, say, Clayton, let's

34:11make sure that

34:11more people answer that say, I'm going home. I'm getting home. I'm going to have a home. I agree with

34:17you that we have to make sure that that's the mentality. And as many miles as you and I put

34:22it in the air

34:22each year, Mike, I think, um, if anybody from American airlines or JSX is listening,

34:27we're open for sponsorships. We'd love it. Yeah. Mike and I can do an episode from first

34:32class. If of American wants to, uh, to, to bring us in. Um, and, uh, and Mike speaking of traveling,

34:38I got to make sure we get you down to Austin, Texas for the gathering coming up in April.

34:43And, uh, everybody that listens to powerhouse, this, this event that we host, uh, which we call the

34:48most powerful room and housing is a, is a can't miss. If you're an executive in

34:52mortgage lending, real estate brokerage, servicing technology, home building, like we're building a

34:58community of the leaders that move this industry forward. Um, April 27th, Omni Barton Creek down

35:03in Austin. Mike, I'd love for you to be there and all our listeners. I hope you join too.

35:08I look forward to seeing you there. All right. Boom. Mike, congratulations on what we will coin as

35:14the greatest executive boomerang in housing history. Thank you, Clayton, for the opportunity. Great to see you.

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