Turning NIMBY to YIMBY with Wendover’s Jonathan Wolf

HousingWire

This week on Power House, Diego chats with Jonathan Wolf, the CEO of Wendover Housing Partners, about affordable housing — specifically in their local Florida market — and how they’re working to combat pervasive NIMBYism.   Jonathan also dives into Wendover’s recent legislative victories on the affordable housing front and the role of major employers like Universal and Comcast in tackling NIMBYism.   Here’s what you’ll learn:   Why collaboration with employers is essential to overcoming NIMBY challenges  How Wendover Housing Partners plans to double its community management in the next two years  The importance of integrating services like healthcare and education into affordable housing communities  The potential for replicating Wendover's successful model nationwide  Jonathan's insights on engaging mortgage and real estate executives in affordable housing initiatives   Related to this episode:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ⁠Jonathan Wolf | LinkedIn⁠  https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-wolf-47919785/  ⁠Wendover Housing Partners⁠  https://wendovergroup.com/  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HousingWire | YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q   The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00When we say affordable housing, it's more than four walls and a rooftop.

00:04It's building communities. And then we started addressing some of the issues

00:08and finance being a key component. We said we've got to interface government.

00:23Welcome to Powerhouse, where we interview the biggest names in housing and ask them about

00:28their strategy for growth. I'm Diego Sanchez, president of Housing Wire, and my guest today

00:34is Jonathan Wolff, CEO of Wendover Housing Partners. Jonathan, it's so great to have you on the show.

00:41Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me, Diego.

00:44Well, please tell us more about Wendover Housing Partners.

00:48We're a Central Florida-based affordable housing developer. We do work from Texas through the

00:56Carolinas. And we're a company that's been in existence for a little over 35 years and focusing

01:05on affordable housing. So the problem that you're trying to solve is a big one, affordable housing.

01:11And it's a problem that has gotten worse over the past couple of years. So tell us about that

01:18problem that you're focused on solving and how you're going about solving that problem.

01:21You know, you can't go into any city or speak to any mayor or any politician without them saying

01:29one of their top three priorities is trying to do something about affordable housing.

01:34And in Florida, in particular, where we have over 47 percent of our population living paycheck to

01:41paycheck and all the numbers, you know, one in three Floridians spend more than half of their income

01:48on rent. And, you know, it's interesting when we when we talk about lower income folks,

01:56a third of these people are working 40 hours a week, a third are seniors, and then a good portion

02:02are folks that are simply disabled. But it's not just in the rental market. It's in the home ownership.

02:09You know, I think, Diego, when your parents and my parents were trying to buy their home,

02:12they looked at taking two to three times their income for the price of a home. And today it's

02:18over six times. We're seven million homes short, both rental and ownership throughout the country.

02:27And the real question is, how did we get here? And what are we doing about it? I like to say that

02:34the politicians admire the problem, but they're not so fast in trying to come up with the solution path.

02:41And so folks often ask me, well, what are the hurdles? What are the major impediments?

02:48We like to say location, location, location in real estate. And I say finance, finance, finance.

02:55I mean, that is definitely the cornerstone. The second is weak knees of the politicians.

03:02They all say we've got to do something and then show up to a city council meeting and

03:06hundreds of people say, well, sure, but just do it somewhere else.

03:10And then getting the land. So what Wendover has been doing is try to address those three impediments

03:19and move us from admiring the problem to solving the problem. And the problem is how do we get and

03:25develop more affordable housing? And it's everywhere.

03:29So you've been leading the organization for over 30 years, which makes affordable housing your life

03:38pursuit in a lot of ways, at least with your career. Why did you choose affordable housing as

03:45that life pursuit?

03:47Well, like any young person, I certainly didn't start there. I didn't grow up wanting to be an

03:51affordable housing developer. In fact, my educational background all said I was going to end up in the

03:57State Department solving world peace and running around internationally. I started off in corporate

04:05finance internationally and then morphed into real estate. And in solving an issue and solving a

04:15problem, while I couldn't fix all the issues of the Middle East, I said, you know what, there is

04:21something I could do locally. And that was affordable housing. And I started in the mid 90s, looked at it,

04:27looked at the financing situation, looked at the availability of stock. And the passion of trying

04:33to do something for individuals brought me to this sector. And that's where we started. And we've been

04:41growing ever since. It's given us an opportunity to do something concrete. And when we say affordable

04:48housing, it's more than four walls and a rooftop, it's building communities. And then we started

04:54addressing some of the issues. And finance being a key component, we said we've got to interface

05:02government, both on the federal level and at the state level. And Diego, happy to say, for the first

05:11time in 20 years, we had a legislative victory in the big, beautiful tax bill. And we can talk about all

05:18the things that we don't like. But the one thing that we do like is the first time in 20 years,

05:24they've expanded financing for affordable housing. And at the state level, we worked in and were able

05:31to achieve something called the Live Local Bill, which provided more funding and a pathway to zoning,

05:37which calls for affordable housing. So in the last year and a half, we have some legislative victories,

05:43finally, at the federal and the state level, which has taken us decades to get through.

05:49That's really good news. And I think it addresses a little bit that finance, finance, finance issue

05:55that you talked about earlier. But to me, maybe the biggest issue with affordable housing

06:03is the NIMBY problem, right? And you addressed that earlier as well. How do we work through

06:11the not in my backyard mentality that I think a lot of projects encounter really across the country?

06:19We do. And it's everywhere. And that's the political weak knee that I talk about.

06:23I mean, I think we would all agree that housing is a human right. It's not a Democratic issue. It's not

06:29a Republican issue. It's a human issue. And setting up different models for doing it. You know,

06:36there was a Pennsylvania Supreme Court case recently, and they talked about zoning. And they said,

06:40zoning should be not the impediment to doing things, but the blueprint for how do we move

06:48forward on it. So some of it is legislative, some of it's judicial, some of it's just at the voting

06:55booth when we challenge the folks to say, look, you're talking about affordability.

07:01And affordability is our next door neighbor.

07:04New models. You know, one of the models that we've been working on successfully here in Central

07:11Florida, which has, by the way, with one in three Floridians spending more than half of their income

07:17is working together with a major employer. We've been working with Universal and Comcast

07:24to build a thousand affordable homes within a few miles of their employment base.

07:32So bringing an employer in, and remember, for them, it's self-serving because of recruitment

07:40and retention. You know, talk to any HR director, and they're going to say, what's one of your biggest

07:45issues? Well, it's keeping people, finding them and keeping them. Well, what's the challenge?

07:51Housing. Housing that's affordable and close to the employment base. So bringing the employer

07:57alongside of us can help fight that NIMBY issue when we bring it down and say, look,

08:04these are the people that are working within us. We did something legislatively in Florida this year

08:10as well with a bill to say that Board of Education and health care centers, if they want to contribute land

08:18and do something for their employees, they get a zoning exemption.

08:26And that brings the NIMBY issue to the side rather than the forefront. So there are ways of doing this

08:34if you're bringing in both the employer and the government body at a higher level. You've got to give cover

08:42to the local politician, even though during the election they said, sure, we want to do it. I mean,

08:48you know, just look at New York City. Affordability was the issue in that election. Now the question is,

08:54you know, how do they actually deliver on that promise? And we see that all the time. So we're

08:59looking for different avenues. And a lot of it is bringing the employer into it, major employer,

09:04and saying this is for their employees.

09:06It's such an interesting model. And I feel like it's one that can be replicated because what,

09:11like to your point, what local politician doesn't want to bring jobs to their locality? Like that's

09:18a, what a win-win, right? So is that something that you can replicate across your territory?

09:24We think so, Diego. We think it's not only in our territory, but we think it's a national model.

09:28You know, one of the other interesting pieces, we've started talking to the FAA. A lot of airports

09:33around the country have land, but they also have a large employee base, which is minimum wage or

09:40lower wage. And these folks are commuting an hour to two hours each way. And, you know,

09:47and we present the idea to them, you have the land, you've got the employee base that you need to keep.

09:52And the other component that we've done with Universal is we've broadened the community

09:57to bring in what we call the rest of the services, healthcare, daycare, universities. You know,

10:05if somebody is working and the child, they wake up and the child's sick, what are you going to do?

10:11Well, you can't run off to the pediatrician or the doctor, or you can't come home in the middle of

10:15the day. If you're two hours away where you're working for where your home is or the school,

10:21bring all of those things to the community. So it's right there. And that's something that we're

10:26doing on our universal endeavor is to put those services right where the person's living. So they

10:33don't have to make those decisions. Do I take a continuing ed class or do I go to work? You can do

10:38both if it's sitting in proximate. So it's changing the complexion of what do we mean by affordable

10:46housing and communities. Does that mean that Wendover Housing Partners needs to go national? If

10:53you're thinking about this model being or working on a national basis?

10:58That's the question that folks keep asking me. You know, how far out do we go? And we do give

11:06serious consideration to where else in the country we can bring this, you know, and we're certainly

11:11looking at it. You know, another interesting demographic are faith-based institutions.

11:18Sure. And sure, you know, you ask about what's the city commission going to say when a faith-based

11:25institution walks into the chamber with a piece of land that they own and chats about they're going

11:32to do something for their community. Politician probably has less of a desire to say no to them

11:39than they otherwise would to you or me as we're doing a standoff. So we're looking for those different

11:46types of opportunities to give cover to the, I call it cover for the politician and recognize to the

11:54audience, yeah, there are issues, the nimbyism is there, but this is what the community itself is

12:00actually asking for. Well, it's more than cover. You're kind of playing the game. You're kind of

12:07playing political jujitsu a little bit, which is really impressive. So can you tell me a little bit

12:13more about the business model at Wendover? Are you there for, you know, kind of bringing all the

12:21financing together, bringing the land into the picture, overcoming nimbyism? And then once the

12:28project is built, you hand it off to a project or a site manager, or do you stay managing the

12:35multifamily community? That's a great question. I'd like to depart from each of the elements,

12:40but folks won't let us. So that's a question that's asked to us all the time. We're there for

12:49all the components. So starting off on finding the land, key ingredient, and we try to find a partner

12:57who has sizable land holdings and it's patient because none of this happens fast. And then on the

13:03financing, on our universal transaction, we have 12 layers of financing. Everything from starting at the

13:10federal level down to the state level, down to hedge funds. I used to joke that I was running around

13:16Manhattan with a tin cup ringing in on every street corner trying to file those gaps. So we bring the

13:24financing. We then have to construct it. But most importantly, we are also managing these communities

13:33because that is a critical piece. And then certainly our corporate partners want us to

13:39be there managing it for the life of the community. It is so critical. And we have a focus and do some

13:46things for our residents, which we believe that not everyone is doing. The key words for the company is,

13:55would you have your family and your parents live here? And if we can do that, we've achieved the goal

14:03of creating the life that we think our residents expect and deserve. So we're there throughout. I like

14:12to say we're there for the 50 to 100 years of this. And so it means no retirement for me.

14:20Uh, well, I hope that you can retire at some point and pass this legacy along to, to the next great

14:27leader. Um, but can you tell me a little bit about how many, um, communities are you currently managing

14:34and how many communities are in your pipeline? Yeah. So we're, we currently have over 50 communities,

14:41over 8,000 units. Um, we have another 3000 units in our pipeline. Um, and given the need and the

14:51demographic and the markets we're in, we'll probably double over the next two years of what we're doing.

14:56And, and, and so our five-year plan looks at us doubling and then yet doubling again, uh,

15:04on this, um, as folks are, you know, knocking on our door saying, can we partner up? Can we assist?

15:10Um, can we, uh, bring you the land? Um, certainly the, the demographics and the demand curve suggest

15:20that we can't satiate at all. So the opportunities are there. So growing rapidly. Yeah, that's wonderful.

15:26You mentioned the project and the collaboration with universal. Are there other exciting projects

15:34in your pipeline that you'd like to talk about today? Yeah, there are, um, because of the legislation

15:39we got passed this year in Florida, um, we're going to be working with the local, uh, school district

15:46here in Orange County, uh, Florida, which is one of the top 10 largest school districts in the country.

15:54Um, they had come to us a few years ago and said, please, uh, help. How can we do something similar

16:00to what you're doing with universal? And so we had some legislation passed and, uh, we'll be starting

16:06on that very shortly, um, providing for school district employees, um, everything from teachers

16:13to administrators. Uh, you know, I, I sat with the, uh, superintendent and the chairman of the school

16:20board one day and talking about it. And they just said, we can't recruit enough people, everything

16:26from bus drivers to teachers, to custodians. Um, it's, it's all the way through the, the, the workforce,

16:32uh, demographic that they have at each layer. They just can't find the folks. And part of it,

16:39why it's housing and, and they certainly can't radically change the pay structure.

16:43So, and, and, and we find that in every component, whether it's airports, whether it's hospitals,

16:49whether it's educational institutions, uh, the, you know, these are the opportunities. And,

16:56you know, we do a lot of work with, with, uh, vets, uh, everything from formerly homeless vets,

17:02um, to folks that are, um, in the workforce, but simply, um, at a, at a lower income level.

17:10Um, and the VA has sat down and said, how can we work together to try to address that segment and

17:16that demographic? That's great. Uh, so our final question, the audience for this podcast is

17:23primarily mortgage executives and real estate brokerage executives. How can executives in housing

17:31get more involved with Wendover housing partners? Um, well, obviously just make the phone call

17:38introduce yourself and say hello, but, but we also need them as partners to, to, to,

17:44to, you know, assist at both the federal and state levels, um, in their costs. You know,

17:51for example, uh, the GSEs, Fannie and Freddie, uh, you know, they traditionally were very large buyers

17:58of tax credits and, and, and funding mortgages. Um, they can certainly, because they've been brought

18:04back to health, expand their footprint and the amount of work that they're doing. Financial institutions,

18:11uh, taking a bigger slice of it and understanding the business and moving the bureaucracy,

18:20um, and speeding up, you know, it would, aside from the permitting of a community,

18:26the time to close on the financing, that's just lengthened, adds costs, um, to it. Um,

18:33and so whatever these institutions can do, um, you know, I was with, uh, uh, JPMorgan Chase,

18:42uh, chairman, uh, a few weeks ago, and he was talking about the frustration of the timetable.

18:48Now, and he asked the same question, what can we do to help things? Now we know on the government side,

18:53uh, the bureaucracy will delay, but what can we do as a financial institution? So the,

18:59we are not the bureaucracy. And so it's expanding their footprint by allocating more resources,

19:06by doing more government affairs outreach, and also what can we do to understand the business

19:13and speed up our process to move these communities along? Well, Jonathan, I really enjoyed this

19:20conversation. You're up to some really interesting things and really moving the ball forward when it

19:27comes to affordable housing. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been my pleasure,

19:32and I really appreciate your focus and time on this. Great to meet you.

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