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With Johor state elections less than a month away, political parties are now busy finalising candidates and mobilising volunteers and campaign machinery. Just how much money does it cost to run a political party, especially during election season? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Muhammad Nur Syazwan Zainal Abidin, Assistant Manager for Research at IDEAS Malaysia and lead author of a new report on ‘How Costly are Political Parties?’, as well as Amira Aisya Abd Aziz, Co-Founder & President of MUDA, and former Assemblyperson for Puteri Wangsa.
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00:00Music
00:10Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:13This is the show where we want you to consider and when you consider what you know of the news
00:17of the day.
00:18Johor is gearing up for state elections less than a month away.
00:22We have nomination day which is also just over a week away.
00:26Now political parties at this time are busy finalising candidates, they are mobilising volunteers and their election machinery.
00:35So the question we want to pose tonight on Consider This is just how much money does it cost to
00:41run a political party, especially during election season?
00:45And joining me on the show today to discuss this further, I have Mohamed Nur Shazwan Zainal Abidin who is
00:51the Assistant Manager for Research at Ideas Malaysia.
00:54He recently was the lead author of a new report on how costly are political parties.
01:01I also have with me Amira Aisha Abdulaziz who is the co-founder and President of Muda.
01:06And before the dissolution of the Johor State Assembly, she was the incumbent Assemblyperson for Putri Wang.
01:14So welcome both of you to the show. Thank you so much for doing this with me.
01:17I usually begin with ladies first, but I will this time go to Shazwan because I want to get you
01:23to help us set the context using this report that you've worked on.
01:28So maybe you can begin when you look at why you started the report, what were you doing with this
01:35research?
01:36What gap were you essentially trying to fill in our understanding of political financing and expenses?
01:43Sure. Thanks for having me, Melissa.
01:46You're welcome.
01:47Well, basically the purpose of us writing the report was to understand because there's a lot of focus and attention
01:56being paid on political parties, especially during election season.
02:00But not a lot of attention and focus is given to political parties as an organization and how they run
02:10themselves, how they raise money, how they spend their money and how they distribute the money as well.
02:16And what are the kind of the power relations that come into play as to how they distribute that funding
02:24as well internally and externally.
02:26So that's a big gap, I think that we are trying to fill with regards to the report.
02:32There's also a lot of other reports and research being done on the individual cost of running an election campaign.
02:41For example, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy has published a few reports on like individual kind of politicians running campaign
02:52as well as a woman politician.
02:53But not a lot on political parties as an organization.
02:57So just very quickly, maybe just give us the framework of it.
03:01When we talk about the cost of politics, looking at it from an organization perspective, what does that entail quickly?
03:08So essentially, you can kind of divide it into formal and informal costs, right?
03:14Under formal costs, you have the overhead costs.
03:17So things like office rental, you know, staff cost and even, yeah, that sort of thing.
03:25Informal costs are things that are not recurrent.
03:28So things that are a bit extraordinary, if you will.
03:30So things like election, internal election, programs for the local community and so on.
03:37So those are generally the types of costs that are in place.
03:42Amira, as a leader of a political party, so does that jive?
03:46Does that resonate when you hear the phrase cost of politics?
03:50What really stands out to you?
03:52And I think what I am most curious about is what do you think voters don't really see when we
03:58talk about the cost of politics?
03:59Yeah, I mean, I was also, if you don't mind, I was also interviewed by Shazwan on this particular thing.
04:07And I think it's very important for a party like Muda to speak up about this because we run our
04:13party like a startup party.
04:15And most of the time, what people may not know is that people are always, when it comes to fundraising,
04:23for example, as a party leader, it's my responsibility to ensure that the party is properly funded, that the machinery
04:29is funded.
04:30It is so much easier to do fundraising during election season because people believe that that is the real cause
04:37of politics, that is during election season, that is the real battlefield.
04:41But people often forget that in the day-to-day, we also have a lot of things to run, like
04:47what Shazwan said, the formal part, right?
04:48Like we have staff to pay, we have offices to maintain.
04:53And if you're a national party, you have offices at the national level, you have offices at your state level.
05:00And these are all things that we have to figure out when it comes to running a political party, when
05:05running an actual organisation.
05:08And for a party like Muda, for example, most, if not all of our membership and also our leadership are
05:15young people who are maybe at the middle or the start of their career.
05:18So most of the time, politics become sort of like a part-time thing rather than a full-time.
05:24Aki, for example, most of our state leaders are also, you know, they're not business people.
05:33They're not people with a lot of money behind them.
05:36They're just your regular employee in a certain company or they're working with, you know, maybe GLC or...
05:46So politics is not their full-time job?
05:48No, because for a party like Muda, for example, we can't afford to actually hire and pay a salary to
05:55all our leaders, right?
05:55So really the leaders that came up in Muda, these are all national service for them.
05:59They do politics out of their passion and out of the belief that Malaysia can be a better place.
06:05And all these things means that they are also working to fundraise for the party.
06:09But at the same time, the party cannot run just on, you know, hoping that our leaders can give some
06:18stipends for the grassroots members, for example.
06:21We still need to run our information department.
06:24We still need to run our secretariat department, for example.
06:28And all these require cost.
06:30And so when we talk about cost of politics, yes, obviously election is the biggest chunk of it all.
06:35But the day-to-day costs are the hidden costs that people rarely do not see.
06:41Shazwan, where does the money come from?
06:43So Amira mentioned fundraising.
06:45Talk to me about where political funding actually comes from.
06:53Sure.
06:53So obviously there are different sources of funding for political parties, right?
06:59And it depends on the type of political parties that we're talking about.
07:04If you are an established political party, you have access to a lot more diversified sources of income, right?
07:15So say for example, after decades in power, you might have been able to essentially establish a stream of income
07:26that is stable.
07:27So for example, the party might own assets, they might own businesses either directly or via proxy.
07:36So that's one in terms of kind of assets, right?
07:41Also, parties rely on internal members' contribution.
07:47Membership.
07:47But also, we've also found out that elected representatives are expected to contribute a portion of their income back to
07:57the party.
07:58Elected representatives are expected to contribute a portion.
08:03This is the CDF?
08:04No.
08:05Where are they getting the income from?
08:07As an ADUN or as an MP.
08:09Oh, as the salary for an ADUN?
08:11Yes, yes.
08:11You have to give it back to the party?
08:12Yes, yes, yes.
08:13So it depends.
08:15So some party might expect the elected representative to give say 30% or a certain number.
08:23And also depending on the party, they might be expected.
08:27So for example, for ADUN, they're expected to give a certain amount to the state level party.
08:32For the MP, they're expected to give a certain amount or a certain percentage to the national level party.
08:39So that's one.
08:41But also, and this is a more kind of, I suppose, controversial sources of income, the external funding, right?
08:51So these are state-linked funding as well as corporate funding, right?
08:55Corporate funding, as per usual, if I think YB Amira talked about how for a newer party, new entrant party,
09:07you know, they're expected.
09:09I mean, the members are kind of new or young professionals.
09:13But if it's an established party, right, they might come with years of experience in business and network and business
09:21network, right?
09:22So they come in with a large amount of capital, right?
09:26And they might be able to use that capital to gain further leverage politically, either internal party politics or also,
09:34you know, to become a candidate, right?
09:36So that is in terms of like external funding, right?
09:40But another version, another channel is the state-linked funding.
09:45And again, this is a bit more controversial.
09:47But we find out from our interviews that, you know, parties might be able to access GLC funding.
09:55So, of course, again, under Ideas Report, we have Pantau Kuasa, where we map out political appointments of politicians who
10:05are appointed to GLC boards, right?
10:07So, again, they might be expected to contribute, you know, a portion of their income back to the party as
10:13a director of a GLC.
10:15Another version is NGO, right?
10:18So parties or politicians might establish NGOs.
10:22And these NGOs, you know, might not be directly linked to the parties or politician, but they use the NGO
10:30to apply for funding, you know, for...
10:35Donations?
10:35From government.
10:37Or grants and the like.
10:38Yes, yes, grants and so on.
10:40So, say, for example, if it's a youth grant from whatever ministry, so the NGO applies for that, and then
10:48they get the funding, and then they, you know, they undertake or they organize programs under the...
10:55You know, they might not...
10:56So, this is my question is, is there a difference between funding that is legal, quote-unquote allowed, like donations
11:07routed through various channels, or versus funding that is transparent?
11:13That means the public knows about it.
11:15So, can...
11:17The challenge isn't always that it's illegal, but that it's...
11:21Can the public see it?
11:23Right.
11:23Right.
11:24Okay, I want us to sit with that question for a bit, and I want to ask Amira about the
11:28fundraising experience of Muda.
11:31All the elements that Shazan was talking about, Muda will struggle with because you don't have that...
11:38You're a far newer party with fewer members.
11:42Talk to me about the role of external funding from donors and the like, and how do we think about
11:51that?
11:51How do you raise money from external sources without creating expectations of access and influence in the party?
11:59Yeah, Muda, like any other political parties, we rely a lot on fundraising, but Muda specifically, we rely a lot
12:08on crowdfunding programs.
12:11I'll give an example.
12:13When it comes to fundraising and crowdfunding, as I mentioned before, it is so much easier for you to do
12:17fundraising when it comes to election season because...
12:20Everyone can see it.
12:21Everyone can see it.
12:22People are excited to sort of maybe, you know, like put their bet on Muda, for example, right?
12:28And these are the things that are often happening, not just with Muda, but with other political parties.
12:33And so we often say this, right?
12:35We know nowadays when an individual, for example, wanted to give funds because politics in Malaysia right now is so
12:43dynamic,
12:44they may put their bet on all hats.
12:48And that is quite normal in today's political scenario.
12:52For Muda specifically, we made it very clear that we don't take more than RM250,000 from one individual or
13:02from one particular organisation into the party.
13:07Because we want to ensure that when it comes to our own specific fundraising, we are not beholden to one
13:12or two people.
13:13So for them to say, look, I've given this much to the party, you have to listen to us and
13:18we can tell you that, I mean, we appreciate your help, but you're not the only funder.
13:23RM250,000 cap for external donations.
13:27That's not a very high limit.
13:29If you think about the scale of money that's required to run a political party, not to mention when election
13:35season rolls around.
13:36So if RM250,000 is the cap, how do you make sure that you have multiple sources of funding from
13:42people?
13:42So that's where, for example, RM250,000 cap per individual or because we wanted to make sure that our pocket
13:47is wide and not just deep so that we can say that we are sort of like indebted to many
13:54Malaysians, right?
13:55And not just one or two ultra rich billionaires or millionaires in the country.
13:59And so we do have a lot of people and most of the time, even for this particular election, for
14:04example, we do have people who wanted to contribute RM100, RM200, RM300.
14:09And the thing about party like Muda is that we can stretch the expense of RM100 as if it's RM1
14:15,000 or RM10,000 because we are so used to, you know, our leadership and our members to be volunteers
14:22for the party.
14:22They're not expecting any salary when they go down and campaign.
14:26They're not expecting salary when they...
14:27In fact, most of our leadership fork out their own money for the party, right?
14:31Because we believe that this is our service to the nation.
14:35Even like Shahzuan said for myself, as an adun, my salary goes to my constituency and the party because I'm
14:43also the party leader.
14:45And on top of that, we also do crowdfunding programs.
14:48And we wanted to sort of test this idea that politics can be fun and can be accessible to general
14:56Malaysians.
14:56So the thing is, when you do fundraising with only ultra-millionaires, ultra-billionaires, regular Malaysians can't be part of
15:04that process.
15:05Because if you sell table, for example, even RM1,000, right?
15:08My brother, my sister will not be able to purchase that RM1,000.
15:12But if you do crowdfunding in a more fun way, for example, like Muda, we did a pickleball tournament or
15:17we did a movie night where it only costs you maybe RM80 or RM100.
15:21So you get the regular Malaysians to be part of that process.
15:24And in return, you make them feel that they are part of this journey with us, right?
15:29And also in return for Muda, we know that we are now not just indebted to the ones who buy
15:35our RM10,000 tables, for example.
15:37But we are also equally indebted to those who buy our RM100 pickleball ticket.
15:41And I think that's very, very important so that at the end of the day, when we one day become
15:49government, for example,
15:50we know that our duty is not just to corporate companies who helped us, but also to regular Malaysians who
15:57helped us even, for example, during the big flood.
16:00We have people who give us RM5, RM10.
16:02And all that matters a lot because that is money that goes into the party to go to the people.
16:08But at the same time, it helps push Muda forward.
16:12I like what I'm hearing, but these are quite small scale donations, even if you're talking about crowdfunding from many
16:19people.
16:20You mentioned Johor elections, so we are in the season, of course.
16:23So we're heading into state elections, one of two.
16:26How much does the financial reality of campaigning and fundraising and crowdfunding,
16:32how does that shape the decisions that you're making within your party right now?
16:36I'm wondering when you think about sea allocation, you're on the cusp of announcing the candidates, right?
16:41When we think about who runs where, how much of that is a political negotiation decision
16:48and how much of that is a financial decision based on Muda's current resources?
16:54I would say that for a party like Muda, that's equally important.
16:58Number one, we are fully aware that the shape of election in Malaysia is a first-past-the-post.
17:03So it is, I mean, it is still impossible for a singular party to form government by running on its
17:10own, for example,
17:11or even winning a lot of seats.
17:14And so we are aware that forming collaborations is important.
17:17So seat negotiation becomes, you know, 50% of the consideration.
17:22But obviously the other 50% is our own capacity.
17:25And this is something that I often tell my party.
17:29When we think about capacity, don't just think about capacity of whether we can run or not,
17:33or whether we can win or not.
17:34But think of the capacity that if we win, whether we can serve effectively in these seats.
17:40Because, for example, Syed Sadik, as the parliamentarian, received no, you know, constituency funds at all.
17:51And so that means you need to have the capacity to consistently fundraise for your constituency, right?
17:57Myself as well, although we do receive RM200,000, but RM100,000 is parked in the district office accounts.
18:05The other RM100,000 is the only funds that I can use for my 120,000 voters' constituency.
18:10That means if you divide it, 1% only get about RM1 to RM2 in my constituency, right?
18:17That includes the cost of running an office, hiring staff.
18:21I can only imagine how much time a party leader would spend or allocate fundraising
18:26versus thinking about policy and doing the political work of, you know, legislation making, right?
18:33So can I bring Shahzuan into the conversation?
18:35And at the beginning of our interview, you mentioned that part of the research is really to look at things,
18:42not just from a kind of individual perspective, but an organisational perspective.
18:46Can we zoom out and at what point does the cost of politics become a democratic problem
18:52rather than simply just an organisational expenses problem?
18:56Yeah, you're right.
18:58I mean, political party, as much as they are an organisation,
19:01they're also unique and special in the sense that they are a democratic vehicle, right?
19:08Yes, absolutely.
19:09Whether we like it or not.
19:11And, yeah, as you pointed out, political parties, of course, if they want to run and operate as an organisation,
19:18that's fine.
19:19But the work that they do and, you know, the primary kind of job or responsibility of political parties or
19:26MPs and addons are,
19:28they should be policymakers and lawmakers, right?
19:30And if, you know, a large chunk of the focus and attention must be invested on, you know,
19:38raising money and, you know, finding funds or, you know, trying to kind of survive on a shoestring budget, right?
19:47Then not a lot of attention will be given to, you know, doing research on policies, you know, writing or
19:56drafting legislation and so on.
19:59So that has cost for us as a democracy and that is the concern, right?
20:04And that's why, you know, ideas advocate for political financing bill and part of, you know,
20:10a significant portion of that bill is a public funding provision, right?
20:14Where a portion of the national budget goes to the distribution of, you know, it's distributed to political parties.
20:21Talk to me about that.
20:22That is an interesting but can be controversial take.
20:26So some countries do this.
20:28Some countries provide public funding to political parties.
20:31Very quickly, help me think through the arguments for and against it.
20:35Right.
20:36So obviously the argument for is that it dilutes the influence of donors, right?
20:43As, you know, what the MRS talked about just now, she puts a cap on, you know, of 250K for
20:49donors to the political party.
20:52But if you have public funding, right, basically political parties can rely, don't have to rely so much on, you
21:01know, private donation
21:01and they can, you know, significantly focus more on, you know, legislative work.
21:07Yeah, so that's the pros, right?
21:09But the cons, of course, is how do we ensure that public funding is, you know, is fair and just
21:17and so on.
21:18Well, this is taxpayers' money.
21:19Yes.
21:19So you want to make sure that it's spent well.
21:21And Amira, what do you think about using, having public funding for political parties?
21:25Would you be able to explain to the taxpayers what you're using that money for?
21:29I think most importantly is understanding the role of, number one, political parties and also understanding the role of elected
21:38representatives.
21:39So many countries, for example, when they do public funding for political parties, they also put provisions inside there to
21:46further strengthen democracy.
21:48For example, Malaysia is still struggling with having women politicians or parliamentarians, right?
21:54Our percentage of parliamentarians in Malaysia is still abysmal, about 13%.
21:59And, you know, the entire women numbers in politics, for example, right now is about 10% to 15%
22:06only.
22:07So in a lot of countries, when it comes to public funding, they also use it to incentivise and pressure
22:12parties to put more women as their candidates.
22:16Or any underrepresented group, right?
22:18Yes.
22:18So for example, if you're thinking about youth or if you're thinking about orang asli, for example,
22:23people with disabilities, people with disabilities, so they give like an incentive, an extra percentage of incentive for parties that
22:29reach a certain quota.
22:30I think that is something that is very important to sort of ensure that we have all these people's voices
22:36inside the parliament.
22:38But if you don't have any kind of this sort of incentive, then you only leave it to the political
22:42parties.
22:42I can tell you for sure, some of the consideration by political parties is, do these people have money to
22:48run an election or not?
22:49Which means that you are losing out on a lot of potential candidates that have ideas, that have policies to
22:55bring,
22:56that can be effective representatives, but they just can't pay deposit, for example, right?
23:01I'm thinking about the younger people, for example, the cost for deposit, because we're talking about state election.
23:07When I ran my state election, I have to pay RM10,000 deposit to the SPR and RM3,000 for
23:14each local council in my constituency.
23:17My constituency have four local council.
23:19That means if you add on all that, that means it's a RM22,000 deposit.
23:23So for young people, at my age back then, when I was 27 years old, or maybe even younger, you
23:29don't have that kind of funds to be a deposit.
23:32Even if you can be an effective rep, money becomes an issue, and that's where politics become the game of
23:37the elites.
23:37So how can the elites decide for the majority of Malaysians who are not elites?
23:42So public funding can shift that game from the game of the elites to the game of the people.
23:47If I may add, so YB Amira is only talking about regulatory costs, right?
23:53Not even talking about the cost of campaigns.
23:56The informal costs that you were talking about, right?
23:58Yes, and the campaign costs, the office costs, the flags, and so on and so forth.
24:03Oh yes, the buntings and everything.
24:05So obviously, the cost acts as a gatekeeping mechanism, right?
24:10It's only a certain number of people can enter the political space and contribute their voice in the democratic space.
24:18And that's, you know...
24:19Can I, in the time that we have left, I know I'm trying to open a big chapter.
24:23In the couple of minutes that I have left.
24:25But how much of that cost and those expectations have become inflated over the years?
24:30Are political parties during election season responding to genuine constituent needs
24:36versus responding to the expectations that have become embedded in political culture over the years?
24:43Do we need all the flags?
24:44Do we need all the money during election season that drive up the cost of politics and the candidates and
24:50political parties?
24:51I'll give an example for a party like Muda, for example.
24:54In the beginning, when we contested in the Joe State election, that was our first run at an election.
24:59That was the first time we wave our flag.
25:01And you want as much visibility as possible.
25:04Because when people go to the ballot box, they look at what flag they're going to vote.
25:08If they've never seen your flag before, then it will be very difficult for them to figure that out.
25:12I would say that it is important, but it is not the most important thing.
25:17Okay.
25:18And what would be the most important?
25:20The most important thing for me would be what do you offer to the people when you are a representative?
25:24The policies that you are bringing in.
25:26But again, these policies, these things you are championing need visibility.
25:30If you're just talking without visibility, then people are not listening to you.
25:33And this visibility costs money, whether it's in the form of buntings, banners, or media appearances, or social media boost.
25:42All these are costs that we need to use in order for us to get our messages across.
25:47It's all the hidden costs that add up to the bill.
25:50Okay, since I started with you, I'm going to come full circle and end with you, Shazuan, if I may.
25:54In the minute or so that we have left, can you just tell me, having put so much work into
25:58this report,
25:58and it's a wonderful report, what is it that you're really hoping that might change in the way political parties
26:05raise money
26:05and political parties spend money, and how Malaysians understand what it takes to contest in a democracy?
26:13I think the most important thing is to understand that politics costs money, and that's fine.
26:18So how then do we manage that cost?
26:21We introduce certain reforms, such as the political financing bill, right?
26:25One of them is, of course, public funding, donation cap, donation rules, an independent regulatory body,
26:34just to ensure that the money in politics is managed well.
26:38People know who are the donors to political parties, that there is a limit to the donation, as Roy B.
26:44Amira said,
26:44and also to dilute the influence of private donation.
26:48I think that's important.
26:49Okay, both of you, thank you so much for such an invigorating conversation.
26:53I really appreciate you being so candid about your experiences. Thank you.
26:57That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:59I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
27:01Thank you so much for watching.
27:02Good night.
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