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- #considerthis
The Election Commission is tasked with protecting the integrity of elections. How does it ensure the rules are applied fairly during polls, where do its powers begin and end? What reforms has the EC implemented in recent years, and what reforms are still needed to strengthen democratic participation during elections? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Azmi Sharom, Deputy Chairperson of the Election Commission.
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00:18Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:23where we want you to consider and reconsider what you know of the news of the day. I'm
00:28here at the Opera Hotel South Quay in Johor Bahru where the Consider This team has been
00:33on the ground to cover the Johor elections which has of course entered its final days
00:38with voters casting their ballot on Saturday. Now the institution responsible for ensuring
00:44the election is fair and credible is the election commission. So how exactly does the EC ensure
00:53that the rules are applied fairly? And where do the powers of the EC begin and where do
00:59they end? And finally the question we want to ask tonight is what reforms are still needed
01:04to strengthen confidence in Malaysia's electoral system? Well joining me on the show to help
01:10us answer some of these questions I have Dr. Azmi Shahram who is the Deputy Chairperson of
01:16the Election Commission. Azmi thank you so much for being on the show with me today. So here
01:19in Johor I think most voters only ever see polling day. So maybe you can begin with Johor as an
01:28example as to what is happening behind the scenes over these you know the final days as we head to
01:36polling day. What does the EC need to do to ensure or to watch as to whether an election is
01:43run well?
01:44Okay so it's it's actually a process which goes back many weeks and
01:52in some cases months you know when you prepare for an election. So now it's coming towards the
02:00polling day itself so if you ask me what's happening in the next few days. Well so tell me when
02:05dissolution
02:06happened and then it's election and then it's campaign and then it's polling day that's not
02:11much time that's two weeks essentially and do you know when dissolution is going to of course
02:16they would come to the EC to celebrate. No we don't because yeah because the politicians don't
02:21chat to us about what. They don't ask are you available on the 11th of July? No they don't care
02:26about us at all they just you know they do their thing and then and then we have to deal
02:30with it. So
02:31basically there's certain things which happen continuously we update the electoral roll continuously
02:39that's done monthly right we we provide training for election workers which is very important
02:49we then this ranges from the returning officer all the way down to the those who are actually at the
02:57polling station themselves. There's so for now the as soon as nomination day is done we have to get
03:06the ballot papers out and we have to get it out fairly quickly so that it can go to the
03:12postal voters
03:13that's the first batch of ballot papers it has to go out to the postal voters so that's you know
03:18there's
03:19a there's a hectic amount of work being done because it's not only printing it but we check every single
03:25ballot paper to make sure that it's that it's okay you know and then and then of course uh once
03:30that's
03:31done then the for the ordinary polls we have to get the ballots out all the equipment have to go
03:36to the
03:36arrows the ballot boxes all the paraphernalia um that has to um be sent to the ro in time for
03:45the election
03:45is it a well-oiled machine by this it's pretty well oiled and um you know we uh what a
03:51lot of people
03:52don't realize is that the election commission our staff only number about 800 nationwide but during
03:58election times there's 40 at least in johor there's 40 000 plus election workers so you know that's and
04:05and these are temporary election workers you know they're normally teachers or etc um so there's a huge
04:12number of people working extremely hard so that uh so that we can vote okay so let's let's look at
04:19some of
04:19the um issues that have cropped up with the johor campaign so every election of course this is not
04:25just limited to johor parties will accuse each other of um breaking the rules the electoral rules what what
04:31are some of the most common offenses that your offices are looking out for particularly with this
04:36campaign all right well it's um we have enforcement teams in each of the constituencies so there are 56
04:44enforcement teams out there now and uh and these enforcement teams consist not just of uh um
04:52election commission um staff but also the police local authority and representatives from the candidates
04:58right um their powers are quite limited uh we look out for things like uh banners etc and whether it's
05:05lawful um you know some are put up in places which are dangerous and we can take them down
05:11um but things like provocative speech um corruption we don't actually have the power to do anything
05:18about it if we see it happening then we can make a report uh to the police for election offenses
05:25and to
05:25the um anti-corruption agency for uh bribery etc and of course we don't normally see these things
05:33right so what we do is we encourage the public if you do see things which are unlawful uh which
05:39are breaking
05:39the the the election um rules then by all means please make a police report like what give me an
05:44example uh for example you could have a a situation by corruption a corruption like bribery okay that's
05:51the most obvious one so so giving money yeah yeah right in exchange for your vote you know um if
05:57if if
05:57you see this happening then by all means please please make a why does the ec not sorry so not
06:02a
06:02police report report to the um um mcc the anti-corruption why why mcc why not the election
06:08commission why does the what powers do the ec actually have for enforcement yes very little
06:14investigating and enforcement no investigation why are there limits to your power um it's a good question
06:19um the the election offenses act does not empower us to investigate and the election offenses act does not
06:27empower us to um prosecute right so we we we depend on other agencies who have the power to do
06:35these
06:35things and so there's a lot of collaboration uh between us and the police and the mcc um should we
06:44have the power to do it i'm not quite sure because it would require a certain amount of personnel and
06:50expertise you think there might be an overlap there could be an overlap of powers between agencies it's
06:56something that we might want to think about but really do we have the capacity to do it and that's
07:01the key okay well the other issue that i wanted to discuss with you was the spending limits for the
07:07candidates so state campaign uh state elections a candidate would have a spending cap of a hundred thousand
07:16ringgit is that right yes okay so does does anyone actually believe that that is enough in modern
07:22elections yeah it's something that we're looking at uh it is something that we're looking at uh we're
07:27looking at um increasing the amount um so it's a more it's more reflective of the realities of the day
07:34uh another thing that we're considering is uh to i don't know perhaps have a auditing system
07:43but it this is still early days i i don't want to make any promises and then fail uh to
07:49to produce
07:49anything but it's something that we have been giving a lot of thought to because right now basically
07:53at the end of the day uh they have to give their report as to what they're spending and they
07:58all say
07:59i spent you know two ringgit less than my limit you know uh so that's my concern having an unrealistic
08:08cap
08:09could encourage under reporting of course so but then on the flip side we don't want elections to get
08:15so ridiculously expensive because that would unfairly advantage the more well-endowed parties
08:23so how does the ec um manage some of these trade-offs what's your thinking well right now um the
08:30the
08:30system that we we the system that we have we have to think of a realistic amount of money which
08:35is not
08:36too high and then um we have to seriously think about how to make candidates more properly accountable as
08:44to what they actually spent so it would be political financing part of that yeah it would be it would
08:49be part of that whole bigger picture yeah it's true okay when um so talk to me is there any
08:56way for
08:56the easy to audit that like no it's it's it's it's it's something that it's really it's um in the
09:04embryonic
09:05stages of discussion as to whether it's a possibility or not you know so but um there are other other
09:12countries have uh different systems germany for example is all campaign spending is publicly funded
09:18so you're everyone is uh depending on the size of your uh representation in part in their parliament
09:25you know you you get a certain amount of money and that's all you get right so that means everybody's
09:30pretty much on a level footing it doesn't matter how rich your party is this is how much you got
09:35and
09:35this is what you can do with it right um and also you know so so it's it's it's a
09:40complex problem
09:41because there's there's stuff like internet you know access you know uh when they use uh um
09:49social media yeah exactly how do you track exactly so so it's it's it's actually a very complex uh
09:56issue which we are uh thinking about ways of how to regulate it okay all right the other area of
10:04reform
10:05the other interesting thing that has happened in johor is almost every interview that i have had
10:11about the elections have inevitably discussed turnout and i think it's important because um you know we
10:19talk about turnout how crucial this in terms of the end result and who's going to govern the state
10:25and every election we encourage malaysians go cast your ballot go and and vote in the elections
10:31but malaysia has millions of internal migrants so many of us work in work live and study in other
10:38states than when where we live where we vote so why is it that voting is made unnecessarily difficult
10:49for these people having to take time off from work to come back to cast their ballot to pay for
10:57transportation okay let me stop you there okay all right tell me we have a system where your
11:04representative you're in parliament or the state legislative legislative assembly is representing
11:10you right and who are these representatives representing the people in their constituency
11:17you should be voting where you live you shouldn't be voting in your kampong
11:22where you last live 20 years ago right that's how the first pass the post system works because when
11:28you have mps or duns who are representing their constituencies they should be voted by the people
11:34in their constituencies right so ideally what you should do is if you move then change your polling
11:41address and now it's so easy to do it you can do it online right i've moved several times and
11:46every time i've
11:47moved i've changed my polling address because that's the principle and that's our that's that's the
11:53position that we hold what we do is we try to encourage people to change your polling address to where
12:00you are
12:00living and i guarantee you it wouldn't be a problem the polling center will be about a kilometer away
12:05why do you think some people do not want to change their polling address their constituency
12:11who are these categories of voters who do not want to change or require some kind of additional expanded
12:19absentee voting um well if you don't want to change then it's it's it's your right to do so right
12:26more
12:27mature democracies force you to change right and in some places like australia they'll check where you
12:32actually live and that's where you vote right but we don't do that over here it's it's up to you
12:37to change
12:37your polling address okay and people tell us like what you said why do you make it so difficult and
12:42and my answer is we don't make it difficult we've made it easy for you to change your polling address
12:46and vote where you live if you still want to vote where you originally came from or your kampong whatever
12:52it is then really it's on t it's on you uh you know it it's on you to to make
12:58that effort to to travel
13:00so far but personally i don't think that's the right way to do things because you have situations in bangi
13:07for example where the number of voters um who actually vote in bangi it's about the same as
13:15the number of people who live in bangi but don't vote in bangi they vote other in other places but
13:21the representative of bangi has to represent all of them but they don't necessarily vote for him or her
13:26right because they don't vote there and this leads to a a weird situation and it leads to imbalances in
13:33terms of maybe uh funding for the the the the constituency because uh the numbers are skewed
13:41because the numbers are based on uh who are the voters who are registered there not that but the
13:48people who actually live there are so much more than the number of voters so you have you have you
13:53know weird situations like that where it's there's a there's a imbalance would the ec do more to i know
14:01you
14:01you've made the process easy but would the ec do more to encourage um this practice of voting where
14:08you live that's that's that's our stand and uh and if anyone asks like what you have done this is
14:13what
14:14we will say you know please uh change your your your voting address to where you actually live i'm just
14:21wondering if there are ways so is the ec still thinking about expanding absentee voting in whatever way
14:30shape or form um or is it just about encouraging people to to vote where they live it's it's something
14:37that we are thinking about with with regards to absentee voting right now what we're trying to do
14:41is we're trying to improve postal voting for those who live abroad abroad yes because they are the ones
14:49who in terms of you know ordinary voters they're the ones who have the right to to post to postal
14:55votes
14:55right so we're thinking of ways to make it more efficient so that they can get their ballot papers quicker
14:59etc all right in terms of internal postal voters right now it's limited basically to those who are on
15:07duty on on so the early votes the early votes is for soldiers and for the police all right but
15:14for
15:15ordinary folks or civilians who are on duty on the day say they are for you know the election workers
15:21etc then they have you know we can let them have postal votes right so that's that's that's not going
15:27to
15:27change at the moment right um but what i can say is that with regards to postal voting we are
15:32trying
15:32to find ways to improve uh the system for those who are living abroad would would that include sabah
15:41sarawak no why not because sabah sarawak is not abroad i understand i understand but the the cost of
15:47returning to sabah sarawak and i go back to the point if you're living in johor you might be from
15:54uh kota kinobalu but you're living in johor then you should be voting in johor uh because that's that's
16:01the principle upon which the first past the post system work have you ever encountered pushback to
16:07this of course of course because i uh i i i think there's a emotional attachment to you think it's
16:15an
16:15emotional almost nostalgic yeah uh you know but uh there's a a great deal of um demands particularly
16:25from our uh cousins um on borneo uh to to to have postal votes right and and you know i
16:34i'm not being
16:36mean but i'm just saying that really you should be voting where you live not where you came from but
16:42eventually when you go when you move back you know then you vote there you know um i also i
16:47mean
16:47think about it you know someone who who who doesn't live in a particular constituency right doesn't know
16:53what the issues are in that constituency can influence what happens in that constituency you
17:00know it it doesn't tally to the system of representation that we have which is a constituency based
17:08representative do you think now having you've been in the ec for is it seven seven years now um i
17:15remember
17:15there was a time and this is not that long ago that there was uh an erosion of trust in
17:21the electoral
17:22system i think there was a period of time where many malaysians questioned or skeptical almost every
17:28step of the process of the electoral system do you think that the public trust has improved in the time
17:35that you've been observing the ec change well there was a study uh done by ukm a few years ago
17:41where
17:41they found that about 60 percent of people actually trust the ec uh which isn't bad when was this um
17:48i
17:49can't a few years ago a few years ago yes um and um that's that's okay i mean if you
17:55go back to my
17:56university lecturing days 60 is a good b right it's it's okay all right it's not perfect um other places
18:04like australia have you know have a trust rate of over 90 you know and that's what we would like
18:09to
18:09achieve i think that if our voters look at the system that we have in place now they would be
18:19hard
18:19pressed to actually find anything wrong because the key thing is the pacha system the polling agent and
18:28counting agents these are representatives of the candidates who are in every single voting stream
18:36every single cellar on every single room and they're there from beginning to end right and then
18:42they're there when the polls open and the ballot box is transparent by the way so you can't you can't
18:48have magic votes put in there right okay and they're there throughout the polling and then they're there at the
18:54counting and they co-sign the forms to uh confirm the number of votes etc and they have a copy
19:04of that
19:05form it's called form 14 you know so everything's done in that room and it's done in front of representatives
19:13from the candidates it's virtually impossible to cheat you would need every single person in that room to
19:21conspire to cheat which is i think nowadays virtually impossible um stories of ballot boxes disappearing
19:29or appearing that's nonsensical because the the everybody in that room has the results you know so
19:37how are you going to have a magical box appear out of nowhere you know so it's i think i
19:43think the system
19:43is such now that it's it's it's it's it's it's uh mischievous to say that uh there's this uh wrong
19:52wrong
19:52doings happening and also we have observers uh yes pemantau yeah uh pemerhati yeah so so the pemerhati
20:00comes from um ngos um some some are academic groups but we also have uh right for joho we have
20:08per se we
20:08have engaged uh we have tinder these are bodies which are very critical of the ec and who you know
20:17observe us with very scrutinized very very much and every time we get their reports it's not about the
20:25integrity of the polling if they have criticisms it's about um you know accessibility etc but it's
20:31not about the integrity of the actual polling so i dare say uh that our our system is is sound
20:39and and
20:40clean and do you think that with improved public trust does that change the way people behave in
20:48elections so with voters with politicians if there is trust within how clean and fair and credible uh an
20:56electoral system is does that change the way people behave do you think uh well i can't speak for
21:01politicians because you know who knows how they behave right um but i would like to think that
21:05our you know our nation citizens now you know won't do things like stopping cars because they think
21:13there's a magical ballot box in there you know in the past you had yeah you had you know you
21:18know
21:18this kind of drama stories you know you know like oh there's an extra box and they stop the car
21:23you
21:23know all that kind of stuff hopefully all that's gone and done because you know when you go and vote
21:28have a look around the room who are these strange people who are just looking at you these are the
21:33polling and counting agents and they represent the candidates how can you cheat do you do you
21:40think that deserves more public recognition are there things that the ec has done that you sincerely
21:45believe deserves more public recognition um i suppose i suppose so but uh but the public can see for
21:55themselves it's it's it's not some you know something we're doing in it in secret it's it's it's it's
22:00out there it's in the open and i do believe that there's less complaints about the the actual polling
22:06itself in the seven years that you've been uh an ec commissioner coming from i i would describe you as
22:14an
22:14activist academic could i have described you as that yes i don't know i don't know how active i am
22:21what surprised you the most about the view from the inside of the ec about having to implement
22:28reforms that you once advocated for has that been it's a slow process surprising it's a slow process
22:35okay it's a it's a slow process um there's a lot of uh engagement that has to be done with
22:41stakeholders
22:42uh so although um something that we want to do it's not something which is quick you know i thought
22:51you just come in and say i want this this this done it doesn't work that way well the the
22:55key thing is
22:56that you know you you have a good team and right now i'm i'm you know i i i i
23:02i have to say i think
23:02uh we do have a secretariat and a and a commission which is keen on trying to make um positive
23:10changes
23:11all right it's just that we're so busy with all these elections which keep popping up you know
23:15absolutely you know and and they you know and they they they keep coming up like mushrooms you know
23:20never ending that doesn't seem to end because every time there's elections our staff are busy
23:24so it's difficult for us to get together to do work with regards to reform because you know we've got
23:30to go to another state so maybe that's also another reason not to have so many elections so
23:35tell the politicians that's not we can't do anything and we don't even have time to go into
23:42re-delineation is that an area of reform that the ec is looking at uh well the the the the
23:49biggest thing
23:50with regards to delineation is that it used to be the laws provided a maximum and minimum number
24:00uh... in the constitution that was amended decades ago right and that means it's up to us to set some
24:08sort of uh... uh... reasonable uh... size difference in between the between the different constituencies
24:17and what has to be remembered is that we can only do that interstate we can't do it nationally
24:22because each state is given a certain number of seats and that's in the constitution and we can't we
24:29let's have three has three parliamentary seats but the number of voters in perlis is less than pj
24:37you know um but we can't change that because that's in the constitution it's not in our power to say
24:42perlis should have less seats uh with all due respect to perlis people uh that's not what i'm
24:47suggesting but but what i'm saying is that this so we can we can try to do our best within
24:52the state
24:53so for example within slang or to try to make the constituencies more or less the same size within
24:58slang or but what what what would be really helpful is if if if we looked at the constitution again
25:04and see maybe it's time that we went back and actually had um you know proper limits like for
25:12example it uh a constituency shouldn't be when was that set it must have been decades ago okay
25:17when you first in originally there was uh there was a limit of uh um i think it was uh
25:26you can't be
25:27a third too big or a third too small there was a rationale at that time okay you know um
25:33but that
25:34was taken away right so are you saying that in order to properly relook our the delineation of our
25:41constituencies we have to go back to the and amend to the constitution no we can do that ourselves
25:47i mean the ec has a power to the ec has a power to to think about this and to
25:54come up with our own
25:55policies and our own ideas as to you know how we want to delineate and of course we take into
25:59consideration the fact that some areas are uh very very large especially in sabah srawak so you you can't
26:07be too strict you know you can't be exactly equal it's impossible right we can take that into consideration
26:12at the same time we also have to take into consideration we try to have a reasonable difference
26:17in size so it's not too huge right but that's up to us to to to get together and to
26:23to to work on it
26:25it would be easier for us if we're forced to do it by the law right as it used to
26:31be but that's not
26:32the case right um but that's that would require a constitutional amendment and that is a political
26:38question okay uh in the minute so that we have left can i ask you maybe you have a message
26:43for
26:44malaysian voters today what what would you like voters to bear in mind about their democratic right
26:51and the power of their ballot um well we should vote as many of us as possible we should go
26:59out
26:59and vote because you know this is the this is the way that uh um we assert our independence as
27:09human
27:09beings you know to to be able to choose your leaders this distinguishes us from peasants i mean
27:14not peasants um serfs and slaves you know that that what voting is part of what makes us free
27:20and if you're a new voter uh you know we we you can go on tiktok for the academy pilihan
27:27raya uh
27:28official tiktok page and and watch our wonderful people acting out how to vote and things like that
27:33so if you're if you're new voter that's we we we provide a lot of um social media content to
27:40to to help
27:41you but at the end of the day um you know voting is a human right people have died to
27:48get this human
27:48right right and uh it seems uh it's it it it seems a bit silly if we we we don't
27:58use what we have
27:59absolutely i mean thank you so much for being on the show with me i appreciate your time thank you
28:04that's all the time we have for you on this episode of consider this i'm melissa idris signing off
28:08here in johor at the opera hotel soft key in jb and where we will be covering the johor elections
28:16make
28:16sure you stay tuned to astro awany for all your pilihan raya coverage i'm melissa idris signing off for
28:21evening thank you for watching and good night
28:27you
28:46you
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