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Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Wednesday became the longest serving democratically elected prime minister of India in consecutive terms.
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00:01Good evening and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination news,
00:06newsmakers, talking points Wednesday night. Let's tell you our big talking point. Prime
00:11Minister Modi has gone past a landmark set by Jawaharlal Nehru, longer serving continuously
00:17in office elected prime minister since 1952. How has India changed in the last 12 years
00:26under PM Modi? What are his biggest achievements and failures? Modi at 12. Also, another TMC MP
00:33has quit. Sushpita Dev will be joining me on the show today. Lots to look forward to.
00:39But first, as always, it's time for the headlines at nine.
00:44NDA leaders give Prime Minister Modi a standing ovation after he becomes the longest continuously
00:51serving elected Prime Minister of India since 1952. Opposition calls it political optics
00:58and event management Modi style. Another TMC MP quits party, Rajya Sabha Sushpita Dev resigns,
01:09says decision had nothing to do with poll route. She also meets Assam Chief Minister sparking,
01:14joining the BJP buzz. Election Commission of India to announce the decision tomorrow on Meenakshi
01:23Natarajan's candidature in the Rajya Sabha. The Congress leader's papers were cancelled for allegedly
01:28hiding a criminal case against her. Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Vijay's second visit to Delhi after
01:37becoming Chief Minister. Thalapati meets Rahul and Sonia Gandhi at 10th Janpat. Also meets President
01:43Dhanapati Murmu VP Radhakrishna. India today's news break on fake oxytocin injections confirmed.
01:53Rajasthan minister admits injection at only water admits bleeding of women couldn't be stopped.
02:02The West Asia ceasefire remains fragile. US and Iran trade strikes once again. Trump says Tehran
02:08will pay the price for stalled talks.
02:14And Ben Stokes and baseballer Gus Ott Atkinson dropped from the England team for the second test
02:20against New Zealand. Two players flouted the team's midnight curfew to go to a London nightclub
02:26and get caught in a brawl. Joan Root named the England captain.
02:40Okay let's turn though to our top story today. 12 years in power and counting a record in office for
02:49an Indian Prime Minister. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has become India's longest continuously serving
02:55prime minister surpassing Jawaharlal Nehru. Remember though Jawaharlal Nehru was prime minister for 17
03:01years but the first general election took place in 1952. So 12 years that Mr. Nehru also had.
03:10Well whichever way you look at it the NDA celebrated the milestone with a grand show of strength in Delhi.
03:17All the allies and MPs and ministers gathering together and felicitating Prime Minister Modi.
03:24The opposition though says this is classic Modi style political optics and event management
03:30when the focus should be on the real issues facing the country. Take a look. 12 years. Modi at 12.
03:49Narendra Damodar Das Modi becomes India's longest continuously serving elected prime minister
03:55surpassing Jawaharlal Nehru's 4,398 days. The government marked its 12 years in power with a conclave at the
04:05Bharat Mantapam in the national capital on Wednesday. Prime Minister Modi was felicitated by his cabinet
04:11colleagues and NDA allies.
04:18Chief ministers and senior leaders from 22 NDA ruled states flew down to Delhi to attend the event.
04:28Addressing the gathering Prime Minister Modi exhorted his party men and allies to work for a
04:34Vixit Bharat by 2047.
04:37The country has achieved something that has achieved.
04:41The world is seeing the world.
04:43But now, we have to keep our trust in the future and keep our trust in the future.
05:06BGP's coalition partners heaped praise on Modi
05:09who first took court as Prime Minister on May 26, 2014.
05:28The right leader, at the right time, at the right place,
05:34Narendra Modi ji as Prime Minister of this great nation.
05:37Working with a single agenda that is a nation first,
05:43a principle that all of us has constantly keep it in mind.
05:47Earlier, Prime Minister Modi chaired a Cabinet meeting.
05:51The Cabinet passed a resolution applauding Prime Minister Modi on his record
05:55and gave him a standing ovation.
05:59The day had started with BGP leaders across the country offering prayers.
06:07The opposition called the celebrations a PR exercise
06:11and posted messages listing what they called promises broken by the Prime Minister.
06:18NCPSP leader Sharad Pawar urged people against comparing Modi's term to Nehru's,
06:24saying challenges in 1947 were massive.
06:29As the NDA government enters its 13th year, Prime Minister Modi has many challenges ahead.
06:36The biggest will be managing the economy at a time when the West Asia conflict
06:40has triggered a shake-up in global economy.
06:44Bureau Report, India Today.
06:47Okay, so let's raise the big questions.
06:49How has India changed in the last 12 years of the Modi era?
06:53Has change in the last decade been for better or worse?
06:57What are the biggest achievements and failures of the Modi government?
07:00How do the optics of last 12 years match the ground reality?
07:05And is a comparison between Modi and Jawala Nehru avoidable?
07:10Joining me on the show, GVL Narsimarao, former Rajya Sabha MP and senior leader BJP.
07:16I'm joined by Amitabh Dubey, spokesperson of the Congress, Ashok Malik, partner at the Asia Group.
07:23Bhavan Verma, author and former diplomat.
07:25And Sanjay Jha, political analyst who was once with the Congress.
07:29Good to have all of you on our talking point.
07:32Let's raise that first big question.
07:34How has India changed in the last 12 years?
07:38I want each of you to get one-minute preliminary remarks.
07:42You start, GVL.
07:43How has India changed in your view in the last 12 years under Prime Minister Modi's uninterrupted rule in power?
07:52Good evening to you and the viewers.
07:54Under Prime Minister Srinarendra Modi, India has shown that it has the capacity to rise and to become a world
08:04power.
08:04And in 12 years, the whole world has witnessed development.
08:09People of the country have experienced development across all sectors.
08:13The poverty levels have reduced to almost one-fourth of what it used to be under the Congress regime.
08:19There is an all-round development.
08:21India is the largest, fastest-growing, largest economy, large economy in the world.
08:25And the era of corruption is all over.
08:30Under the Congress, India was synonymous.
08:32Congress was synonymous with corruption.
08:34And BJP is synonymous with development.
08:37Modi is synonymous with transformational development.
08:41And a development by, development of completeness and not incremental development that we have seen under the Congress governments.
08:54Okay, so that's your one minute.
08:57Amitabh Dubey, your one minute.
08:59How has India changed under Mr. Modi and has it changed for the better or worse?
09:03I think, Rajit, unfortunately, on a number of very important counts, it has clearly deteriorated and taken a turn for
09:11the worse.
09:13GVL, Narasimha Raj just mentioned corruption.
09:16This is arguably the most corrupt government in the history of this country.
09:19The electoral bond scam was such an outstanding example of pure political corruption.
09:25The BJP got 2,500 crores of donations from companies that were under investigation with the CBEI, Enforcement Directorate, Income
09:33Tax.
09:34We all know how the cronies close to the prime minister have gotten sweetheart deal after sweetheart deal, while the
09:40rest of the investment is languishing.
09:43Most of India's private sector is languishing.
09:46A large number of businessmen have left the country.
09:49And now, as we see from the declining rupee, the money is going with them.
09:53I think when you take a higher 30,000-foot view, you will see that the GDP growth rate, you
10:00will agree that the GDP and economic growth is the most important thing for this country, has been lower than
10:06it was under the UPA.
10:08Despite all the recalculations of GDP, you have a record inequality.
10:14The top 1% own 40% of the assets, more than 20% of the income of this country.
10:214 out of 10 graduates are jobless.
10:25This is a record that I, frankly, is to be ashamed of.
10:28Now, of course, there is some momentum in the economy and the government has been building on the achievements of
10:32the past and that will continue.
10:34But when it comes to the actual responsibility and decision-making of the prime minister, it has led to a
10:39very sorry state of affairs over the past many years.
10:45Okay.
10:46Your one minute is up.
10:47I want to turn to Ashok Malik.
10:49Your one minute.
10:50How has India changed in the Modi era and has it changed for the better or worse?
10:55At the simplest level, when you measure change, it's change you can see.
11:00Let's focus on infrastructure and the way India looks.
11:04In the past 12 years, India has changed enormously.
11:07By infrastructure, I don't just mean physical infrastructure.
11:10I mean digital infrastructure as well, including the broadband rollout, which is all India today and pan-India.
11:17By physical infrastructure, I mean ports and airports, which airports have doubled.
11:21I also mean rural roads, I mean border roads, I mean bridges in the northeast of India that have been
11:29pending for years.
11:30I mean the railway rollout in, again, places like the northeast and Jammu and Kashmir, which were pending for years.
11:38India has changed enormously.
11:40India is much more physically integrated because of the infrastructure rollout.
11:45The infrastructure accretion we've had in the past 12 years has been unmatched in any 12-year or 20-year
11:52period or even longer in our recent history.
11:55Now, you could argue India is better off today than it was in the 60s.
11:59It simply has more money so you can spend more capital of this infrastructure.
12:02That was correct.
12:03But somewhere it is also the man.
12:05It is not just the moment and the money.
12:08It is also the man, Mr. Modi and his government have been driven by pushing for infrastructure projects that were
12:15pending for years and completing them.
12:17So, I do believe his chief attribute will be the transformation of India in terms of infrastructure.
12:25Sorry.
12:25Okay.
12:26Done.
12:26Okay.
12:28Okay.
12:29Transformation of India in terms of infrastructure.
12:32Sanjay Jha, has India changed for the better or worse?
12:35And if so, how has it changed in the last 12 years?
12:39Razdeep, I'll get into the granular details in the subsequent part of the program.
12:43But there are two important points I wish to make and quickly within one minute.
12:48The first point is that the political business model of the BGP has been brazenly one of polarization.
12:57Now, what does that mean?
12:59Now, normally in all our debates, we assume polarization to be social polarization, which is a reality.
13:04The anti-Muslim tirades in particular have now reached absolutely nauseating levels.
13:12It is an absolutely alarming state of social decay in our country.
13:17And let's try and understand that in detail today, that the most dangerous explosion under the Modi government has been
13:26this mob violence culture in India.
13:28If you have normalized lynching, to me, that is India's collapse.
13:35Mohabbat bin Akhlak's murder was once discussed on primetime in 2015.
13:40And now when the RSS goes to the US, they are asked questions on the Ku Klux Klan.
13:45That is Narendra Modi's legacy to India.
13:48The second is the economic polarization that I think Amitav mentioned briefly.
13:53And it's important.
13:54It has led over the last 12 years to extraordinary concentration of economic power with just a few industrialists, which
14:02is not the model that will take India anywhere.
14:05And it's showing in the numbers.
14:06And I'll tell you the risk there.
14:08The risk is that the investments have gone.
14:11Foreign investors are not coming.
14:12The private investors are not investing in India.
14:14One, they're scared of ED, CBI income tax rates, which have happened.
14:20And then those companies have been handed over to some famous industrialists close to the government.
14:26The second, very worrying, is that new entrepreneurs are not going to invest in India because they suspect one of
14:32these friends of Mr. Modi will come and do a hostile takeover.
14:36This is India's biggest crisis moment, both economically as well as socially.
14:41There are other points which we can discuss later on in your program.
14:44Your time is up.
14:46Your time is up.
14:48Final word on this segment, Pawan Verma, to you.
14:51What is, according, how has India changed in the last 12 years and has it changed for the better or
14:56worse?
15:02I wish, Rajdeep, I could give you absolute answers to a question like this because there are pluses and there
15:11are minuses and I think honestly and objectively we should recognize them.
15:15First of all, I think that I'd like to use this occasion to congratulate Prime Minister Modi on completing 12
15:25years.
15:26He rose from a humble family, rose to become Chief Minister and then Prime Minister and for 12 years he
15:33has remained and we have run a stable government.
15:36Stability of government, stability of government itself is one of his first achievements, I would like to say.
15:41Secondly, I think by and large during this period there has been some degree of macroeconomic stability.
15:49Inflation has been kept in control.
15:53Thirdly, I think that some attempts at reform were made.
16:00You have the RERA Act, the Insolvency Act.
16:03I think some attempt was also made for agricultural reform though it didn't succeed.
16:08And I think on foreign policy, for me, the biggest achievement of this government was Balakot where you pulled Pakistan's
16:18bluff.
16:19People may assess it in whatever manner they want but at least to an open terrorist and violent and heinous
16:26act, the government of India responded firmly.
16:30So, and finally on the plus side, I would say that in these three terms of Prime Minister Modi, one
16:38thing him and the BJP has succeeded in doing is to almost completely destroy, if not destroy it, that's too
16:46strong, but to completely disperse and fracture the opposition.
16:50They have just not been able to come together.
16:54I think in terms of pure Chanakya Neeti, Amit Shah and Prime Minister Modi have been ahead.
17:00Now in terms of the minuses, very quickly, I think that with three stable majorities and two absolute majorities, I
17:08think perhaps Prime Minister Modi could have done more in terms of economic reform, ease of doing business.
17:15The country is crying out for it.
17:18I think that's an area where the hesitancy needs to go because India is waiting for it.
17:24Secondly, I think inequality is a big issue which this government has not been fully able to tackle.
17:30We are 142nd on the index of per capita income and that needs to be taken care of.
17:38Thirdly, I think that there is a need to look at the education sector.
17:44We are producing an army of the unemployment, employment opportunities are going down.
17:53So I think that's an area.
17:55And finally, there has been, there has been an erosion of institutions.
17:59And I think the Prime Minister Modi would do well for himself and his image and the government if some
18:06degree of impartiality is once again restored to institutions in terms of public perception.
18:13So I think that's broadly the balance sheet.
18:18So I've heard all five of you.
18:22As I said, we have limited time.
18:23But I want to, in a way, from these two very extreme positions, I want to try and find a
18:28middle ground.
18:29I know some of you have given the pluses and minuses.
18:31But GBL, you know, today also there's a drum beating, cheerleading.
18:36You know, it is a remarkable feat in uncertain times to be Prime Minister for 12 years in a row.
18:42But is there a recognition that under the glitter, under the optics, there are real issues?
18:48We've seen issues like paper leaks revealing a lack of governance when it comes to basic issues.
18:54If year after year, papers get leaked and the numbers have increased in the last 10 years, it reveals a
19:00deeper governance deficit.
19:01Is there a tendency to gloss over the weaknesses?
19:05Not at all, Razdeep.
19:07If there was, if there is any government ever in India, I can't possibly speak for the whole world.
19:14But I can tell you, there has never been a government which worked 24 into 7.
19:19Never a leader, can you even cite any other leader who has worked as hard as Prime Minister.
19:27Never taking even a holiday.
19:29Attending to every single issue on top priority.
19:33Ensuring a 360 degree impact.
19:37Are you saying that Manoj Singh didn't work?
19:39Sir, you know, this is what I...
19:41Are you saying other Prime Ministers didn't work?
19:43Are you saying Manoj Singh didn't work?
19:45Manoj Singh was a very hard-working Prime Minister.
19:48Without sounding arrogant, with a great deal of respect, I would say Manoj Singh ji could not have, would not
19:57have worked 50% of the capacity of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
20:02And I can say it with, because obviously the sheer enthusiasm, the dynamism of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, you cannot
20:11find in any other leader.
20:13You have a leader of the opposition today who, on the eve of elections, goes on holidays abroad.
20:20He doesn't...
20:21You don't even see him campaigning in states where his party has a stake.
20:24And here you have Prime Minister who never takes a holiday.
20:29I think people obviously don't want to lose such leaders.
20:33He's been Prime Minister for 12 and a half, 12 years plus, because people think nobody anywhere in sight who
20:41can deliver as much as Prime Minister can do.
20:43Like the leak, exam paper leak, I do agree there are challenges, but this Prime Minister addresses every such challenges.
20:51And he uses them as opportunities to try and reform.
20:55There is never complicity.
20:57There has never been any attempt to push over or shove anything under the carpet.
21:04I think this Prime Minister's sincerity, his hard work, his selflessness, because he doesn't promote his family.
21:13The only family, if he promotes politically, is the BJP family, is the NDA family.
21:18And that is his job as the leader of the coalition.
21:21And people don't give repeat mandates to a leader, without delivery.
21:31I take your point.
21:34People don't give repeat mandates without delivery, which brings me to you, Amitabh Dubey,
21:38that while you are so critical of the Prime Minister saying under his regime, cronyism has increased, inequalities have widened.
21:45The fact is the people seem to elect him time and again.
21:48They would say, for example, the welfare delivery architecture has only increased through digitization,
21:54Jandhan, Yojna, the Jam Trinity, Jandhan, Aadhaar Mobile.
21:58Are you not going to give him any credit for what has been achieved?
22:01If he was such a poor Prime Minister, why does he keep getting re-elected?
22:08So Rajdeep, firstly, I will point out the obvious, that Aadhaar, basic savings bank accounts, financial inclusion,
22:15was all created in the U.P. and this government took it forward, as it should have.
22:20And we commend this government for doing it.
22:22But it should be a little generous in sharing credit for good work done.
22:26The fact is that winning elections...
22:30Now, you know, Mr. I think Mr. Pawan Verma said on the one hand that, you know, he has dispersed
22:35the opposition.
22:36We are seeing what's happening right now in West Bengal.
22:38And then he also said that the institutions have been weakened.
22:42Now, there is a very clear connection here.
22:44These are not two independent things.
22:46You will recall that in 2024, Mr. Modi barely won a majority.
22:50Or he didn't win his own majority.
22:52He had to cobble together a coalition.
22:54And then suddenly, a few months later, he's winning two states, Haryana and Maharashtra, decisively,
23:00where he had just been defeated.
23:01And we have evidence that there was botchori.
23:03So, this is clear institutional manipulation going on.
23:06If his record is so great, why is he being forced into this kind of manipulation?
23:11Now, when he was caught with this botchori, we suddenly had this SIR from a completely compromised election commission.
23:17And you had a sweeping victory in Bihar after lakhs of voters were cut out for a government that's been
23:24in power for 20 years.
23:25And now we see what's happening in West Bengal, where you had logical discrepancies leading to, you know, 2.7
23:31million voters being excluded.
23:32And we are seeing the result of that.
23:34So, there is this nexus of capital, of manipulation of institutions that is leading to these outcomes.
23:40Now, if everything was, like I said, hunky-dory, why are we now seeing manipulation of census data?
23:46Why are census teachers who are doing the household census reporting that they're being forced to say,
23:51that there is no water, there is a roof where there is no roof?
23:55The fact is that if things were going so great, all of this manipulation, including that of data, would not
24:01be necessary.
24:02And yet, we see it happening every day.
24:06Rajdeep.
24:08Okay.
24:09You know, which brings me to…
24:11No, no, no.
24:12Let's…
24:13We will give everyone a chance.
24:15I've heard you.
24:15I've heard him patiently.
24:16I want to bring in Ashok Malik because I'm trying to get a more complex picture of the last 12
24:21years,
24:22the pluses and the minuses.
24:24Ashok Malik, you mentioned an eye factor infrastructure.
24:26And I think no one can deny that there has been visible growth in infrastructure.
24:31But the other eye is institutions.
24:34Have institutions weakened?
24:36Amitabh Dubey seems to suggest whether it's the weaponization of enforcement directorate to target political rivals
24:41or whether it's the election commission, the general perception is there has been a democratic backsliding
24:46because institutions have been undermined, including, dare I say, a section of the media.
25:01Ashok Malik, can you unmute?
25:04Could you unmute, please?
25:06I'm sorry.
25:07My apologies.
25:08Rajdeep, I…
25:10This democratic backsliding debate is impossible to either defend or refute
25:18because it is an amorphous, intangible set of political perceptions
25:22which happen with every government all the time.
25:25And how do you define it?
25:27What precisely do people mean?
25:29Have there been aberrations here and there?
25:31Yes, there have been under this government or under previous governments as well.
25:34But broadly, are we less democratic than we were 10 years ago?
25:39It's become more brazen. Critics say it's become far more brazen.
25:43Modern politics is more brazen across the world.
25:45It's become far more brazen if 95% of the cases are of enforcement cases against opposition leaders
25:50and if there is a washing machine that is seen to clean up their past,
25:54surely there is something that is wrong, significantly wrong.
25:57The executive is seen to be undermined by a centralized PMO.
26:02Politics, as you know and I know, is not a nursery school.
26:06It has never been a nursery school, not under this government, not under previous governments.
26:10So, for every example you give, I can give an opposite example and you can go on and on and
26:15on.
26:15That does not…
26:16That is not the way one judges a 12-year epoch in the life of a prime minister.
26:23I don't think you will judge the Nehru years fully by the metric of what happened in Kerala in 1959.
26:30That would be unfair.
26:31You know, you don't pick random examples here and there to judge the enormity of an epoch.
26:37I think that is unfair.
26:41So, there have been enormous achievements in this…
26:44Do you think it's also unfair when this government…
26:46Do you think it's also unfair, Ashok, when this government is tarred with cronism?
26:50You know, you've got a Sanjay Jha saying that this government has created a crony capitalist culture.
26:56Do you believe that's also unfair?
26:58Do you believe when he says the social polarization has widened, is that also unfair?
27:02Look, I'm not here to refute everything Sanjay says.
27:05I don't think that's the purpose of this debate.
27:07But I'll tell you one thing.
27:09This government, like my previous governments, including the Nehru's government in the 50s, has attempted to create national champions.
27:16Now, in any country, including South Korea, which is the epitome of national champion creation, there is always a tension
27:24between creating a few solid national champions that the country needs and the natural economy needs.
27:30And the risk that you are concentrating important businesses or important sectors of the economy with just a few players.
27:37That tension exists.
27:39There's no solution to it.
27:41It is a constant process of iteration.
27:44We have four or five big groups in India today.
27:46We need ten.
27:47But I think everybody recognizes that.
27:50And that is the process that will continue.
27:51That's a debate that can happen ten years from now if some other party is in power as well.
27:59You know, that's the point in a way, Sanjay Jha, when we, you know, when you go on banging about
28:06crony capitalism and Mr. Modi's government is all about cronyism, are you being a little uncharitable?
28:14There will be those, as Ashok Malik says, Mr. Modi is trying to build national champions and a model, a
28:19business model around national champions, including, dare I say, let's name them the Adanis and the Ambani's.
28:26Uh, Razdeep, I will take half the time that the other panelists have taken to make four emphatic points on
28:33your show, because I think this is a very important program.
28:36I would be very charitable to call Mr. Modi's government.
28:39It is like a PR firm given police powers.
28:43That's what this government is all about.
28:45It's about a great primetime spectacle that we are subjected to every night, which has got nothing to do with
28:52either substance or performance.
28:53Now, my fourth bullet points, I'll repeat what I said earlier.
28:57This is divide and rule 2.0 that we are seeing.
29:01The British did it.
29:02Mr. Modi has done it since 2014.
29:04And it's blatant, it's brazen, and I don't think they care.
29:08It's almost vulgar and shameless, if I can use strong words.
29:11As, as somebody who's, who's got relatives who are minority in different countries, I shudder.
29:17Go ahead with your bullet points.
29:18Go ahead with your bullet points.
29:20You know, less rhetoric.
29:21My second point.
29:21Give me hard facts.
29:22Give me hard facts.
29:23Bullet points are hard facts.
29:26This is a government of the 1% by the 1% for the 1%.
29:30It's a government of a few.
29:31I mean, a show can argue till the cows come home.
29:34It is very obvious that this government has actually sold its business model to big industrialists.
29:41India is too complicated and complex an economy and more gigantic to be given to a few people.
29:47Point number three.
29:48India's demographic dividend is now a lost generation.
29:51India's youth, the rise of the Kokoro Janata Party, is a manifestation of the frustrations of the youth in this
29:58country over 12 years.
29:59My last point, very critical, cooperative federalism, that has been destroyed without any compunctions.
30:06It has now become competitive intimidation.
30:09I mean, states are threatened that if you don't co-opt, we'll not give you the subsidies or the benefits
30:14we need to give you.
30:15When did this happen in the past?
30:20Okay.
30:21You know, there is, therefore, Pawan Varma, very quickly, you know, on the plus side, as we said, infrastructure.
30:28I think no one can deny there has been a huge infrastructure push, whether it's digital, whether it's physical infrastructure.
30:34There is stable leadership.
30:36But there are concerns that what centralization of power is doing on the ground and the gap between promises and
30:44performance at times.
30:46Do you believe, therefore, that some of the euphoria needs to be tempered with ground realities?
30:50A quick response.
30:55I'll give a very quick response, Rajdeep.
30:57Of course, euphoria needs to be tempered by analysis and objectivity.
31:05Sanjay mentioned divide and rule.
31:07If he was talking in the political context, I ask all those who are in the opposition to ask themselves,
31:14why are they so easily divided?
31:18The BJP is united.
31:21And they are all united in fighting the BJP but are divided.
31:25That's a question that should be asked only 12 years after Prime Minister Modi.
31:29Secondly, very quickly, I'll take 30 seconds.
31:32I think there has been progress.
31:34Although I was not a supporter of demonetization,
31:37one consequence of that has been a quantum jump in digitization.
31:41Secondly, I think you rightly pointed out that there has been a push on infrastructure.
31:47And thirdly, although I believe it should be tempered down to be replaced by qualitative change on the ground,
31:53the welfarism structure is more expanded today than ever before with 80 crore families getting food subsidies.
32:00Now, I believe what he needs to focus on now is A, inequality, B, growing unemployment.
32:08And lastly, I think very rightly there's a demographic dividend in this country.
32:14The youth are being educated without the opportunities or the skill to be employed.
32:20We are having a situation where in a general overall picture of inequality which economic reforms are not addressing,
32:30we have a problem with that demographic dividend and I think the government needs to focus on that.
32:39You know, I want to ask you this, GVL, Narasimara, while we've discussed the plus and minuses,
32:43my final question was about Nehru and Modi.
32:46There's a sense of triumphalism.
32:48Oh, Narendra Modi has now crossed Prime Minister Modi in terms of,
32:53Prime Minister Nehru in terms of uninterrupted days in power.
32:56Is there still the burden of Nehru that weighs heavy on this government?
32:59Should we not judge this government by what it has achieved
33:02rather than constantly drawing comparisons with what Nehru did or what the Congress did?
33:07As you said, the hardest working Prime Minister, as if before 2014, no Prime Minister worked hard.
33:13Not worked, no Prime Minister worked as hard.
33:16And that I will continue to repeat that.
33:19Okay, but comparison with Jawaharlal Nehru does not in any way diminish him.
33:27There was not a statement made to show Shri Jawaharlal Nehru in any poor light.
33:35It's statistics are statistics.
33:38When you win a World Cup, when you say we have won for the second time,
33:42you will highlight it or you will just say we won the World Cup,
33:45we don't want to talk about the history.
33:48Comparing any achievement against a benchmark is certainly a valid comparison.
33:54And this does not in any manner undermine Jawaharlal Nehru's contribution or his stature.
34:00But for people to understand.
34:02But Prime Minister Narendra Mohdiji, let me say this.
34:05There is no leader in the world today who has been in office even for 10 years.
34:11In these 12 years, UK had six Prime Ministers.
34:16Japan, Italy have had five Prime Ministers.
34:19Except autocrats.
34:19Canada and Australia had three Prime Ministers.
34:24Yeah, I'm talking about democratically elected governments.
34:27Okay, and in our neighborhood, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan,
34:32three to six leaders have changed.
34:34Heads of government I'm talking about.
34:36And here you have India, which is an exception.
34:40A true democracy.
34:41And if anybody thinks a PR can help somebody to win elections repeatedly,
34:45then they should go hunt for Rahul Gandhi.
34:48I think Sanjay Jha should hunt a good publicity professional for him.
34:54And they will get four seats next time.
34:56This is the poorest understanding of politics
34:58or an attempt to undermine somebody's achievement.
35:05Rajiv, can I make a quick point?
35:06Sanjay Jha, you want to respond?
35:07I'm almost, but yeah, yeah, very quickly.
35:11Please respond very quickly.
35:13You know, the very fact that we are having a debate today
35:16on 12 years of Mr. Modi
35:19exactly establishes my point
35:21that this government is all about propaganda and not performance.
35:24Pandit Nehru, Mr. Rao, let me just appraise you and educate you,
35:29was Prime Minister for 16 years and nine months.
35:32So your party...
35:32He was not elected for the first time.
35:34I didn't interrupt you.
35:35I didn't interrupt you.
35:36He was not elected for the first time.
35:37One minute, one minute, one minute.
35:39One minute.
35:40The argument, Sanjay Jha, is that this is...
35:43He was not elected.
35:44The argument is post-52 our first elections took place.
35:47That's the argument the BBC makes.
35:49It is a fair argument to some.
35:51Well, let me tell you, that is what is called
35:53as a statistical sleight of hand.
35:55If you're talking about tenure or longevity in the office,
35:59then let's not compare apples and oranges, right?
36:02Pandit Nehru was there for 16 years, nine months,
36:04and Mr. Modi is celebrating 12 years.
36:06That tells you what this government is all about, in short.
36:11No, wait.
36:12When you qualify, he's the longest serving elected Prime Minister.
36:18So, there is no ambiguity or no infactuality about it.
36:24I think, is this important?
36:25Is this important?
36:27Is this important, Rathu?
36:29Okay, then let's...
36:30Well, you know...
36:34Why do you say it's...
36:36You see, it's seen to provide...
36:38It's seen to send out a message
36:39that we've had a stable leader who's not been defeated.
36:42Remember, he was 12 years Prime Minister,
36:44Chief Minister in Gujarat and then India.
36:46So, the BJP is saying, look, this is a record of sorts.
36:49You don't see...
36:50You don't think it's important, Pavan Verma.
36:55Now, in my view,
36:57this whole constant comparison is completely ridiculous.
37:03Each leader makes his or her own contribution.
37:07And to judge what they have contributed
37:09in numbers of years, months and days
37:12and to do calculation exercises
37:14is a very jejune exercise.
37:17It's a childish exercise.
37:20We must judge leaders on their own merits.
37:23And such comparisons, I believe,
37:25are not part of a genuine assessment
37:28of what leaders have contributed
37:30or their leadership has contributed.
37:35Nehru was great in his own way.
37:37Prime Minister Modi will be judged now
37:39and also by history.
37:45I couldn't agree with you more.
37:47On that, I must confess,
37:48much like cricketers in a particular era,
37:51judge them in the times in which they live.
37:54I appreciate all my guests joining me
37:57on my big talking point here today.
38:01Okay, we've heard from the panelists on Modi at 12.
38:04Let me bring you my take today.
38:06Let me bring you the biggest achievements
38:08and failures of the Modi government
38:10as I see it.
38:11First, the achievements.
38:12The five big achievements, according to me.
38:14The welfare delivery revolution.
38:16Direct benefit transfers.
38:18Jandhan accounts.
38:19Digital infrastructure have dramatically reduced
38:22leakages.
38:23Expanded state capacity.
38:25Number two.
38:26The infrastructure push in the last 12 years.
38:29Roads, railways, airports, public capital expenditure
38:33has been scaled up dramatically.
38:37Number three.
38:38Inflation has remained mostly under control
38:41through the last decade.
38:42Benefiting, of course,
38:44through much of this period from low oil prices.
38:47The government also has embarked on important reforms
38:51in the power and banking sector, for example.
38:55Number four.
38:56The digital transformation.
38:57The UPI and the wider India stack started in the Congress,
39:03UPA era, but India has moved ahead under Modi's leadership
39:07to become a global leader in digital public infrastructure.
39:12The fifth achievement.
39:13Political stability and decisive leadership in times of uncertainty.
39:18The BJP under Modi has ended the era of coalition fragility,
39:24provided in that sense, a strong government at the center.
39:29Let's now take a look at the five big failings.
39:32Jobs deficit and tepid private investment.
39:37Economic growth has not consistently translated into sufficient quality employment,
39:42especially for young Indians.
39:45And private investment has not picked up amidst charges of cronyism,
39:50over-bureaucratization,
39:52and regulatory issues that a number of businessmen have faced.
39:58Failing number two.
39:59Social polarization.
40:01Whether it is religious and community division,
40:05the fact is, despite the slogans, they have deepened on the ground,
40:09raising concerns about social cohesion and constitutional values.
40:14The BJP doesn't have a single Muslim MP, for example,
40:18in its parliamentary in the Lok Sabha.
40:21Number three weakness.
40:23Institutional weakening.
40:25The fact is, parliament, the federalism, independent institutions,
40:30and even the media have become increasingly,
40:33or sections of the media have become increasingly subordinate to executive power.
40:39Failing number four.
40:40Agrarian rural distress.
40:42Despite welfare support, farm incomes have not got doubled as promised,
40:47and rural demand remains in many areas an area of persistent concern.
40:54And number five.
40:55The centralization of power.
40:58What is also seen as an asset is a weakness.
41:01The concentration of power around the Prime Minister's office
41:04has reduced internal debate within government and party structures,
41:08weakened ministerial responsibility,
41:11this coupled with weaponization of agencies,
41:14normalization of Sam, Dam, Dandal, Bhet politics
41:17has led, according to many, to a democratic deficit,
41:22especially of our institutions.
41:24So you have the positives and the negatives.
41:28But I just want to say one thing.
41:30Let's not compare Modi ji with also Jawala Nehru.
41:34They are 50 years apart.
41:35Let's judge each Prime Minister for the times in which they have lived
41:40and the different challenges they have faced.
41:45Okay, let's turn to our other top story
41:47where the troubles for Mamata Banerjee's Trinamul Congress
41:50seem to widen by the day.
41:52Days after signs of unrest surfaced within its parliamentary party,
41:57another of its senior MPs, Sushmita Dev,
42:00has resigned from the Rajya Sabha
42:02and could be heading to the BJP.
42:04What also seems to be happening is
42:07some of Mamata Banerjee's other loyalists,
42:09including Sayani Ghosh,
42:11its star face in the Lok Sabha,
42:14apparently have signed on a letter
42:16to form a separate faction
42:18within the parliamentary party.
42:20Meanwhile, amidst all this turmoil,
42:22the TMC General Secretary, Abhishek Banerjee,
42:25met leader of the opposition, Raul Gandhi, today,
42:28a day after Mamata Banerjee
42:30had met Sonia Gandhi,
42:32setting off speculation
42:33over a deepening alliance
42:36between the Congress and the TMC.
42:40Good to have you on the show, Sushmita Dev.
42:43You moved from the Congress to the TMC
42:46and now we are told
42:47you're on your way to the BJP.
42:49Am I correct?
42:50That you made the switch
42:51from Congress to TMC
42:53to possibly now the BJP.
42:57You know, I need to know for certain
43:01what the next steps are,
43:03but it is a fact, Rajdeep,
43:05that after I resigned from the party,
43:07then I resigned from the Rajya Sabha seat
43:10with the Vice President
43:11and I went to meet
43:14the Chief Minister of ASAM,
43:15Dr. Hemantubishwur Sharma.
43:18We had a very candid conversation
43:21and I think one thing
43:22has been clear right from the start,
43:24like you said,
43:25from Congress to Trinamul
43:26to wherever,
43:29that I would like to focus in ASAM
43:32and find a way to work there.
43:34So I have expressed that to him.
43:38So, I mean, there is no finality
43:40in our discussion.
43:42So he heard me out.
43:44So I think you'll have to wait
43:46for me to, you know,
43:47confirm that to you.
43:49But yes, we did have a discussion.
43:55So it's likely, can I say,
43:57it's likely that you're on your way
43:59to the BJP
44:00since you've met Hemantubishwur Sharma
44:01and it's out in the open?
44:05See, you're asking me to now,
44:07you know, say,
44:08is this likely, is that likely?
44:09I had a discussion with him.
44:11So if tomorrow he comes back
44:13and tells me that,
44:14look, for whatever reason,
44:15it's not possible.
44:16I am hoping that I'll have,
44:19I will be in a position
44:20to walk into the Chief Minister's office
44:23and ask him to help me
44:25with certain work in my region,
44:27which would not have been possible
44:29if I was in the Trinamul Congress.
44:31And you know, Rajdeep,
44:32when you can't deliver to your people,
44:34you can't hold on to your base,
44:36you can't hold on to your support,
44:37and gradually you become irrelevant
44:39and I'm definitely not wanting
44:42to go down that road.
44:47So tell me,
44:48what's the reason that you left?
44:49Is it because Mamata Banerjee lost
44:51in the Trinamul Congress
44:52is now hemorrhaging?
44:53Is that the reason you left?
44:55Had Trinamul Congress won in Bengal,
44:57would you have still said,
44:58okay, I want to work for the people of Assam,
45:00that's why I'm leaving the party?
45:02Because a number of MPs
45:04seem to be leaving or MLAs
45:05simply because Mamata Banerjee's party
45:07has lost in West Bengal.
45:09What was the prime reason
45:10why you suddenly decided
45:11to leave the party
45:12when just a couple of days ago,
45:14you were defending and praising Mamata Banerjee?
45:18See, on the 4th of May,
45:22incidentally,
45:22it was not just the mandate of Bengal,
45:24which has been, you know,
45:27a lot of,
45:27which is getting a lot of focus,
45:29it's also the mandate of Assam that came.
45:31As you know, in Assam,
45:33Congress lost badly.
45:35Trinamul Congress won one seat
45:37and BJP got around 102.
45:42So there's a clear mandate there.
45:45I know what people are thinking there.
45:47Number two is that
45:49it's not just you win some election,
45:51you lose some elections.
45:52It happens all the time.
45:53But I think what unfolded
45:55within the All India Trinamul Congress,
45:58right from the 4th of May,
46:00I watched the sequence of events
46:02right till 8th of June.
46:04And what became crystal clear to me
46:06is that, you know,
46:09even if out of my love and loyalty
46:11and respect for Mamata Adi,
46:12if I continued
46:13in All India Trinamul Congress,
46:16I didn't see a way of
46:18how I could work in Assam.
46:22It's just not practical.
46:24I mean, I actually thought to myself that
46:27is Mamata Adi wondering
46:28what to do with me?
46:29And am I sitting at home and wondering
46:31how do I take this forward?
46:33So it's a whole,
46:34it's a whole lot of things.
46:36It's a whole lot of things put together.
46:37And Radheep,
46:39I have no shame in saying that
46:40I'm a career politician.
46:42I'm not a part-time politician.
46:43It's not like
46:44I haven't dedicated
46:46my entire last 30 years in it.
46:49And I have to
46:49look at the ground reality
46:51and I have to be practical.
46:52And I thought
46:53this is the best decision
46:54I could take for myself.
47:00So is practicality
47:02meaning that
47:02you have to be
47:03proximate to power
47:04at all times?
47:05That the closer
47:06you are to power
47:07for career politicians
47:09being proximate to power
47:10is the only way forward?
47:13See Radheep,
47:14it's a fact that
47:16Mamata Adi was in power
47:18when I joined Trinamul
47:20in 2021.
47:22But I don't know
47:23whether you will understand
47:24because
47:25I hope you do
47:26because you came to Tripura.
47:28Every place
47:29or every area
47:31that I was asked to work in
47:33was one of the toughest.
47:35It was like a greenfield project
47:36I was giving.
47:37And I can say it
47:39with great conviction
47:40that I was asked to
47:42handle Tripura.
47:43I was asked to handle
47:46Assam.
47:46And at least in Assam
47:48I'm leaving the Trinamul
47:50putting them in a better position
47:51not worse with
47:52even though it's a
47:53one single MLA.
47:55So I have
47:56my conscience is clear
47:57and I think everybody
47:59has the right to change
48:00their mind.
48:00It's my right.
48:01Why should I not be able
48:03to change my mind?
48:04I mean Radheep in 2026
48:06assembly elections
48:07we saw Congress
48:08give 294 candidates
48:10against the Trinamul.
48:11okay and on 8th of June
48:15all is well.
48:16So if top leaders
48:18and senior leaders
48:19and astute leaders
48:20can change their mind
48:22I don't think anybody
48:23should question me
48:24if I have a change of mind.
48:25let's turn to tonight's
48:27Get Real India story
48:28which is coming from
48:29Rajasthan
48:30where there's been
48:30a shocking twist
48:31in the Kota maternal
48:33deaths case.
48:35Investigators now say
48:36five women
48:37who died after
48:38C-section deliveries
48:39may have been
48:40administered
48:41fake oxytocin
48:43injections
48:44containing only water.
48:46the Rajasthan government
48:47has acknowledged
48:48serious irregularities
48:49while the manufacturing
48:51license of the company
48:52linked to the batch
48:53has been revoked.
48:54It's our
48:55Get Real India story.
49:04Five women died
49:06after undergoing
49:07C-section deliveries
49:08at a government hospital
49:09in Kota, Rajasthan
49:10on May 25th.
49:12They had come in
49:13for what was meant
49:14to be a safe
49:15routine childbirth procedure.
49:18They never returned home.
49:20At the center of the case
49:22is oxytocin
49:23a life-saving injection
49:25used after delivery
49:26to control
49:27excessive bleeding.
49:28But a probe
49:29has now raised
49:30a disturbing question
49:31on whether the drug
49:32administered
49:33was genuine at all.
49:36Investigators
49:37reportedly found
49:38that fake oxytocin
49:39was administered
49:40to the women
49:41after C-sections.
49:42The injections
49:43allegedly contained
49:44only water
49:45with no active ingredient
49:47and no medical effect
49:48which meant
49:49post-delivery bleeding
49:50could not be controlled
49:52and new mothers
49:53bled to death.
49:56The probe findings
49:57align with India Today's
49:59earlier report
49:59which had first flagged
50:01the possibility
50:02of spurious injections
50:03behind the deaths.
50:04At the time
50:05the Rajasthan government
50:07had denied
50:07any direct link
50:08between fake drugs
50:09and the deaths.
50:11Rajasthan Health Minister
50:12Gajendra Singh Kinsar
50:13has now admitted
50:14that the oxytocin
50:16vial
50:16contained only water.
50:41Meanwhile,
50:42Punjab authorities
50:43have revoked
50:44the manufacturing license
50:45of Amritsar-based
50:46Jackson Laboratories
50:48linked to the batch
50:49of oxytocin
50:50supplied to the
50:51Kota hospital.
50:54Five women
50:56entered a government
50:57hospital to give life.
50:59Instead,
51:00they were given
51:00an injection
51:01that allegedly contained
51:02nothing but water.
51:04No treatment,
51:05no protection,
51:06no warning.
51:08And now,
51:08one question
51:09hangs over
51:10Kota's government
51:11hospital.
51:12How did a fake
51:13or defective drug
51:14reach the bedside
51:15and turn childbirth
51:17into death?
51:19Bureau of Report,
51:20India Today.
51:25Okay then,
51:26from that tragic story
51:27in Rajasthan,
51:28let's leave you
51:29with some good news.
51:30While war clouds
51:31once again hover
51:32over West Asia,
51:33the world is coming
51:34together for that
51:35great sporting festival.
51:37The World Cup
51:38football is about
51:39to start in a little
51:40over 24 hours
51:42across the North
51:43American continent
51:44and guess what?
51:45Kerala is already
51:47preparing to watch
51:49the football fiesta.
51:51Well,
51:52we look forward
51:52to that over the
51:53next month and a half.
51:54For now,
51:55you stay well,
51:56stay safe.
51:57Good night,
51:58Shubratri.
51:58Jai Hind.
52:00Namaskar.
52:01Jai football.
52:02Jai Hind.
52:03Jai Hind.
52:03Jai Hind.
52:03Jai Hind.
52:04Jai Hind.
52:06Jai Hind.
52:07Jai Hind.
52:08Jai Hind.
52:09Jai Hind.
52:09Jai Hind.
52:09Jai Hind.
52:10Jai Hind.
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