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The central government has issued an eviction notice to the Delhi Gymkhana Club, citing national security and public interest as grounds for cancelling the colonial-era institution's lease.
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00:08In Delhi, Gymkhana club faces a takeover.
00:20In Mumbai, BJP warns review leases to clubs.
00:32Crackdown on colonial era clubs and Gymkhanas.
00:40Justified move or weapon of mass destruction.
00:50Symbols of elite privilege or a cherished legacy.
00:59Club Culture Crackdown Roundtable.
01:05Hello and welcome once again to the Weekly Roundtable.
01:08This week, the Narendra Modi government has opened another front when the centre served an eviction notice to the high
01:16profile Delhi Gymkhana in the heart of the national capital.
01:21The Modi government calls it a step in the interest of national security and public good.
01:27The Gymkhana supporters and members see it as an example of state power and a potential land grab.
01:34There is also a parallel narrative running.
01:37Is this an attempt by the Modi government to dismantle a bastion of the English speaking Lutyans elite and build
01:45their vision of a new India?
01:47Some would say a new elite.
01:49Or is it a weapon of mass distraction from the more pressing concerns of our times?
01:55Are we going to see the end of an elite club culture not just in Delhi but across India next?
02:03Those are some of the issues that we will be discussing on our big Gymkhana debate.
02:08Joining us now, special guest Tavleen Singh, author and columnist joins me.
02:14Also joined by Pavan Verma, author and former diplomat.
02:19And I am joined by Rake Sinha, former Rajya Sabha BJP MP.
02:23We will be joined by more guests as the show goes on.
02:26But I want to start with you, Tavleen Singh, because the two big questions I want to raise initially.
02:31Is the Narendra Modi government justified in taking over the Delhi Gymkhana, serving it an eviction notice?
02:38Or is a colonial legacy club a soft target?
02:42Your response.
02:44I think both things could be true.
02:47Because ever since Narendra Modi became prime minister, he's made it clear that all traces of India's colonial past must
02:56be erased.
02:57So we had parliament erased and a new one created.
03:01You know, I think the ministries have all been moved.
03:04The ministries is a good thing to do because those offices that were built were really awful.
03:09The ones that they've changed from is a good thing.
03:13But the Gymkhana Club is part of Delhi's history.
03:17It's the sort of club where, you know, I mean, since the British left, it wasn't the elite Rajdeep.
03:25The elite go to the Belvedere Club in the Oberoi and the Chambers Club in the Taj.
03:33And they go to other fancy new clubs like the Soho Club that are very, very expensive clubs.
03:39The Korang Club.
03:40The Gymkhana Club is a relic of the past.
03:44It's a beautiful old building in very shabby condition.
03:48And most of the people that go there are not rich people.
03:52They are retired people who go there because the food is cheaper and it's good.
03:58And the booze is cheaper and it's good.
04:01And you can meet other people.
04:02You know, I mean, someone like me, I've been playing squash there since I was a young girl.
04:09You know, it really is part of the life of Delhi in many ways.
04:15And but the other thing that I want to make clear right away is if they're paying only a thousand
04:20rupees a year, that's ridiculous.
04:22They should pay full market rent.
04:25It's a very, you know, fancy building, etc.
04:29So they can afford to pay more.
04:31Can I can I just push you, though, on one point before I go to the others?
04:34You seem to suggest that the elite should be defined, therefore, by wealth,
04:38not necessarily by the fact that they are members of the Delhi Gymkhana, which could be retired generals, retired bureaucrats,
04:47retired diplomats.
04:48And dare I say, even their children who seem to get automatic membership and many question that privilege as well.
04:55Do you believe elite is defined now in India by wealth, the ability that they can go to an expensive
05:00five star hotel, exclusive club,
05:02not so much the Delhi Gymkhanas and the old clubs of the country?
05:07The people that I meet at the Gymkhana Club don't really constitute the elite, except for some bureaucrats.
05:14And I have been, you know, I'm not a member.
05:18I've just sort of, you know, I'm on a list of dependent members, dependents that could one day become members.
05:26But I'm defining elite by political power and by money power, because that is what makes up an elite.
05:34The political elite in Delhi is a new elite in the past 12 years.
05:39The old elite has been kicked out into the garbage bin of history.
05:44There is a new elite there and they behave just like the old elite.
05:49You know, Orwell was completely right about this because they also now have the fancy cars and the Cartier watches
05:58and the glasses that are two or three lakhs.
06:02Some of the ministers, just look at their faces.
06:04They're wearing glasses that are worth two or three lakhs.
06:07The people that you will meet in the Gymkhana Club could not afford that kind of luxury.
06:11So, it's political and money power that makes up an elite.
06:17Very interesting.
06:19Political and money power, in your view, makes up the elite.
06:22And that necessarily does not reside in the Gymkhanas anymore, resides more in these five-star exclusive clubs.
06:29Pawan Verma, your take.
06:31Do you believe the Modi government is justified in taking over the Delhi Gymkhana?
06:36Or do you believe that an elite legacy club or a colonial legacy club is a soft target?
06:47Well, Rajdeep, the government has the powers.
06:53As the unquestionable landlord of all leased land, it can resume that land if it wishes and can state the
07:03purposes for which it is doing so.
07:07So, I think legally, the government is within its bounds to take over the club.
07:13I think what the plea of the members of the club, and for a lot of other people, is that
07:20could there be a little more transparency on the reasons stated?
07:24If it's security and public good, as you put it, then the question arises, is Gymkhana Club the only place
07:35where you need it for these purposes?
07:37The question also arises, why now, for a club that was established in 1913 and which has been in existence
07:46in free and independent India since 1947?
07:49So, I believe some degree of transparency, even some process of discussion prior to such a fiat, a farman saying
07:59that we are just taking over the club because, in our view, we need it for security and public good.
08:04Now, as far as the question you asked about elites, I do agree with what Tawleen said that what constitutes
08:11now the elite in real terms, but all elites are basically, probably, those institutions which have a barrier on entry,
08:22which put on the gates rights of admission reserve.
08:25Now, the Gymkhana Club is a sought after membership, and there are people who qualify, and there are people who
08:32don't, who are still on the waiting list.
08:34Now, in such a situation, the perception grows that what must be those who are members are perhaps the elite,
08:46and they are living on rather expensive, they are part of a club on very expensive land.
08:52And I think they are certainly an elite class to begin with, because they were largely, as bureaucrats, armed forces,
09:02and some others who joined, the beneficiaries of the outgoing colonial regime.
09:09They were the English-speaking elite, and they had more or less a smooth and safe entry into some of
09:16the havens that the British left behind.
09:19Is that the situation today?
09:21Is that the situation today now?
09:22I think it has changed, and it took time to change.
09:25In Kolkata, the Bengal club, created by the British, believe it or not, until 1959, did not have an Indian
09:36president, and it was always a Britisher.
09:40I did not allow Indians also, until seven years later, you had an elected Indian president.
09:46There was a very prestigious club in Mumbai, which many, till many years after independence, had on its entrance, dogs
09:55and Indians not allowed.
09:56Even the Gymkhana Club, if I may just quickly give you a personal example, in the early 1990s, I was
10:03going to the club in the evening, and I was stopped.
10:05I was wearing a silk kurta and pajama, closed pishawari sandals, and the guard who knew me said that,
10:12Sahib, you need a jawar jacket with it, which I agreed to immediately, and I asked my wife to bring
10:18it.
10:18But then I found people in jeans and t-shirts and gola shoes being allowed to go in, and someone
10:26in the Indian cultural milieu formally dressed.
10:31Like, you can wear a vesti and a white t-shirt and be very formally dressed, a country of India's
10:37sartorial diversity.
10:39You cannot prescribe membership or entry on these grounds, because that reinforces the perception of the club being elitist, and
10:48all that has changed.
10:49In fact, when I protested strongly, Admiral Tehliani, who was the president of the club himself, said, you are right,
10:55we need to change the club rules.
10:57And other clubs have changed, perhaps the pace of change has been slow, but they have changed.
11:03Now, as far as public good is concerned, I want to ask you, Rajdeep, if you are looking for public
11:11good on this very prized 27 acres,
11:15then you must proceed to do it in the whole of Latians Delhi, where sometimes there is one family living
11:22in 3 to 5 acres of a Latians bungalow.
11:26And all of Latians Delhi is exactly that.
11:29Bungalow 7 quarter, bungalow 7 quarter, and 4 or 5 acres surrounding it of lush gardens maintained at public money.
11:37So, if you have to redevelop it in a city where officially 50% of the population has been designated
11:44as a slum, you have the whole of Latians Delhi to do it.
11:49So, again, the question comes, why the Jumkana club?
11:53So, it comes back to the soft target.
11:55You are suggesting that if it is the Delhi Jumkana today, then why not the ministerial bungalows?
12:02Why not, for example, maybe tomorrow the constitution club, which is exclusively for MPs and former MPs?
12:08The list could go on and on.
12:10It could be the army golf club, the Delhi golf…
12:15Rajdeep, I just want to make a point that the constitution club, which is some of the poshest facilities,
12:22is only open to MPs and ex-MPs in the heart of Latians Delhi on Rafi Mark.
12:28Yeah, yeah, but the difference is that Delhi Jumkana…
12:31No, sir, the difference is, and I'll widen this, the difference is that the children of the members automatically get
12:37membership in many of these clubs.
12:39So, it is inheritance at one level.
12:41We cannot deny that, Mr. Pawan Verma.
12:43Therefore, the comparison doesn't always work.
12:45Why should the children of the privilege get easy access to a club?
12:50Do you agree with that? Why should they get it?
12:53Good point. Yeah, very good. Good point, Rajdeep.
12:57There was a certain tradition where dependent members had a fast track to membership by getting, in the first instance,
13:07a dependent card.
13:08If you have a problem with that, it's your management committee.
13:12You've taken over the club's committee. Change it. But do you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?
13:18Do you need to say, no, we need to take over the entire club?
13:22Okay.
13:23That is what I am questioning.
13:25I take your point.
13:26Let me…
13:26That's a bit of discussion.
13:27Okay. Let me bring in the others. Remember, the club was taken over.
13:31Delhi Jumkana was taken over by the government through an administrator.
13:33There were allegations of corruption and mismanagement. But, Rakesh Sina, you've heard these opening remarks.
13:39You've been a supporter of the fact that these clubs need to be taken over.
13:43Respond to what you're hearing. There is a new elite already.
13:46The new elite which, as Tavleen Singh says, wears watches worth lakhs of rupees, specs worth lakhs of rupees.
13:54I mean, who is the elite? Define for me, Rakesh Sina, who you believe is the real elite that this
13:59government is taking on?
14:02No, Rajdeep, we are not against elites or non-elites. We don't want any battle between the elites and non
14:07-elites.
14:08The debate has something else. That is the public good.
14:12And I think that Narendra Bodhi government is rationalizing the club culture.
14:17It is a question of rationalization. It is not a question of socialism and capitalism.
14:21You know, after decolonization, the Indianization, all these debates are going on.
14:26But here, as the club is concerned, in India there are 60,000 clubs.
14:30There are many exclusive clubs. There is nothing wrong.
14:33You can have your own rules, your own regulations, your own traditions, your own membership criteria.
14:38But in democracy, you have to go by the primble of the constitution, the liberty, equality and justice.
14:45You cannot impose hereditary things in the club.
14:48Next thing, 76 acres of 27,000 crore cost of the land. And here, almost 750 J.J. cluster, Juggi
14:57Jhaugri's cluster, almost 30% delights are the slum dwellers.
15:03No, but you are not going to put with you, you are not going to put slum dwellers where the
15:08Delhi Jimkhana exists.
15:0927 acres of land is not going to be given to slum dwellers.
15:12No, no, no. It is not black and white. If you are slum dwellers, the slum dwellers will go and
15:18leave.
15:19It is a question of, I am just asking the question, what has it done for the common good of
15:26the people?
15:27Except enjoying the exclusive luxury, exclusivity of the core of this club. And that who are these members is not
15:35concerned, whether they are elites or non-elites, whether they are wealthy people of the retired bureaucrats.
15:40Question of, they are enjoying the 76 acres land.
15:4427 acres land, but that is true of all clubs, sir.
15:47Sir, that is true of all clubs. Tomorrow you will stop Calcutta club, you will stop Bombay Jimkhana, you will
15:52stop all the clubs because they are all exclusive.
15:54So, Razdeep, Razdeep, allow me to speak.
15:59Yes.
15:59You know, since 1991 to 2011, there is one deficit in this country that all informal public spaces during the
16:07Manmohan Singh regime have eroded.
16:10There is erosion of informal public spaces.
16:12One must be remembering that in Delhi University or Jawaharlani University and other universities, particularly in Jadapur University or Calcutta,
16:19informal spaces where people used to sit, deliberate, contemplate.
16:23They are good people. They are wealthy people, non-wealthy people, students, teachers, and common men.
16:29All these spaces have been commercialized since 1991 to 2011.
16:33So, we have no public space.
16:35And in that era, where the 80% people lack the space, and there is a special inequality you have
16:41imposed in this country, you are enjoying this 76 acres land.
16:44So, public good requires that is racialization. So, eviction is the…
16:48So, what would you use it for?
16:50No, no, no, sir. You have used the word public good four times. What would you use the place for?
16:55You are using prime property. What will you use it for? To set up another defense headquarters?
17:00No, no, no. Is that public good? There are enough bhavans across the country?
17:04No, no, no. In fact, certain private individuals are enjoying something. And something is done for the larger public interest.
17:14Whether it is a security headquarters, security agencies, or some library, or something else, it depends on the government.
17:23But definitely, it is for the larger benefit of the people, and the larger space would be in the larger
17:29interest of the people.
17:30Second important point here is, you see, Rajdeep, when we go to clubs, it has certain, for the individuals who
17:39are members, it is also some larger utility.
17:41What is the larger utility? Except the 26 green tennis clubs and other things in the club, what is the
17:49larger utility?
17:51Certain people are enjoying this, the maximum facilities, without any responsibility. So, you own the responsibility.
17:58I know many clubs who are doing the great job. Have you done anything for the asylum dealers?
18:02Eight to nine crores rupees per year, this benefit, is profit. It has 76 crores operational cost. 43 crores comes
18:11from the tea and other things. It's next.
18:14So, this club cannot be allowed to function as exclusive super India within the India.
18:21Okay, I have got your point. Sir, I have heard you patiently.
18:24Just I am summarizing the Narendra Modi government social philosophy. That social philosophy is based on that everything should be
18:33done in the interest of the 140 crores people.
18:36There should not be segmentation of the people. Certain people who are enjoying since the colonial era, a kind of
18:41tradition that we are elite, we are monopolizing the things, the government is not going to tolerate such monopolization.
18:47Second, sir, I have listened to you now patiently. I have listened patiently. You have said it's social philosophy is
18:55to cater to the public good, even though some believe what we have created in recent times is a billionaire
18:59Raj, where 1% of the population owns 40% of the national wealth.
19:04But I will come back to that. I want to bring in Yogesh Prasad. Major Yogesh Prasad is someone who
19:09has been a club member, managing committee member.
19:11You are listening to the opponent saying that what public good does a club or a jib ghana serve? Simply
19:19playing tennis, playing squash. These are recreational activities for an exclusive group of people. They don't serve a larger public
19:27good, says Rakesh Sina.
19:30Rajdeep, at the outset, I would like to say that this word elite, I don't know from where it has
19:36come.
19:37It is the club's constitution clearly states that only half the membership of the club at any point of time
19:45will be from the officers of the armed forces of India and the civil servants.
19:51The balance of 50% is open to everybody. Now, the question about the children. There is a specific clause
19:59in the articles of association that a child who has used the club as a dependent in the age group
20:07of 13 to 21, on reaching the age of 21, if he or she wishes to continue to use the
20:15club, must apply for membership.
20:18And a nomenclature has been given and it is called green card. Now, if people have objection about the children
20:28using the club, I would say we are quite prepared to make changes according to the wishes of the government.
20:36But how can, or with a stroke of pen, you can say that the government takes over the club for
20:44this need or that need?
20:46Because the club does not pay market rents. The club is in prime property land, close to the prime minister's
20:53residence.
20:54There is a belief that this could be put to a better public good rather than simply recreation. They will
20:59give you some alternative place.
21:00In any case, in any case, the prime minister's residence is moving away from there anyway. In the last 70
21:08years, no threat has emerged from the Delhi Gymkhana Club.
21:13And Gymkhana Club has very responsible members. So there is no threat to security, I'm afraid. I'm not prepared to
21:22buy that.
21:22As far as, look at the kind of contribution this club has made. Whenever Davis Cup matches are held, it
21:31is the preferred preference of our players is grass courts.
21:35We have the best grass courts outside Wimbledon, maybe the best in the world. We have excellent squash facilities. We
21:43have produced champions there.
21:45If you go back to the history, Mr. Sumat Bisra, Mr. Narenda Raat, Mr. Prem Pandi, another playing member at
21:56the moment is playing for Indian Davis Cup team.
21:59In squash, we have produced champions. We have got…
22:03So you don't accept…
22:05Okay, I've heard you, sir. I've heard you.
22:08It's not that Gymkhana Club is only for pleasure.
22:12Okay.
22:12It is…
22:13It is…
22:13It is elitism. It is something which has…
22:15You know…
22:17So you don't see yourself as an elite. You don't see yourself, Major Saab, as an elite.
22:22Sorry, say again?
22:23Do you see yourself as an elite? Do you see yourself as part of the Lantian's elite?
22:27I don't think I'm an elite. I'm a normal, retired government servant. How am I elite? Am I educated? And
22:35because I have served the government, I'm elite?
22:38Okay. Let me bring in at this moment, Satyapal Jain. And the question that I carry on, is the Lantian's
22:46elite a real or imaginary enemy of the government? Should all government lands be only used for limited public purposes?
22:53Your response, Satyapal Jain, your additional Solicitor General, do you believe?
23:26I… Yeah, go ahead.
23:27I have enjoyed this. I will use the word privilege for more than 100 years at the cost of the
23:33state exchequer by having this so-called socializing meeting place, club where they sit together, discuss and all that.
23:40In the country, where the privilege has been given to these people for 100 years, I personally feel, personally feel
23:48with some responsibility, when the government decided to terminate the tenancy, the lease deed, they should have themselves come forward.
23:56And they have said, they should have said, look here, we have enjoyed this privilege for 100 years.
24:00We hand over the possession to the government. And in case they want some other institute, some other place, they
24:06could have requested the government.
24:07Because they have run the government for years together. Having said that, I will say two things.
24:12The rights are the rights which are recognized by the society at a particular time.
24:16There are no fundamental inherited rights.
24:19Prevary purses of the Raja Maharajas were abolished.
24:21Land reforms came.
24:22Those who were having hundreds and hundreds of acres of land was taken away, reduced to 30 acres of land.
24:28So therefore, rights are not the permanent rights.
24:30I will be a member, my son will be a member, my daughter will be a member, my grandson will
24:34be a member.
24:3537 years people have been waiting for the membership.
24:39NCLT dissolved their managing committee.
24:41It was NCLT, which is a judicial tribunal, which appointed the administrator, government administrator.
24:46So I personally feel that they should themselves come forward, hand over the possession to the government of India.
24:52And what is the government of India saying?
24:54That we have...
24:57Look here, there are three ways of transferring the property.
25:00One, the sale, the purchaser become the owner.
25:04Second is the rent, the tenant and landlord governed by the rent laws.
25:09Lease is only a concession.
25:11There is a lease given, which comes to an end, you have to hand over the possession.
25:14Third, sir, third, sir, I'm saying, though there is no definite definition of an elite and all that,
25:22Karl Marx used the word bourgeoisie, the middle bourgeoisie, that was the word used by Karl Marx.
25:27All those people who are having influence in the society, who are having their living standard above,
25:34much, much higher than the common man, they have the power,
25:38they have been in power, occupying serious, powerful officers, by and large, they are known to be the elite.
25:47Otherwise, you can't have a definite definition of the elite word.
25:50I feel time has come once again, I will repeat.
25:53So far as the merits of the case are concerned, the case has gone to the high court.
25:57The government is being represented by the highest legal officer, very competent lawyer, Mr. Tushar Mehta.
26:03Their lawyers also, Mr. Kapil Sibbal, Abhishek Manu Singh, we are very prominent lawyers, well-known lawyers.
26:09Merits will be decided by the court.
26:11We will not like to, as a lawyer, to discuss those merits and demerits in the open.
26:15But I feel, hand over the possession, I will advise them,
26:22I have heard you, Satyapal Jain, you want the property to be handed over, you are even likening it to
26:32privy purposes.
26:33Tablin Singh, interesting, here is an additional solicitor general saying,
26:37this is like what Indira Gandhi did in 69, with the Raja Maharajas,
26:41it's time to end this sort of colonial relic.
26:44Like, effectively, he didn't use the word colonial relic, but when he used the reference to privy purses,
26:49you almost feel as if this is a 1969 moment for Narendra Modi,
26:55I am going to teach the old Nehruvian elite, which monopolize these clubs a lesson, the English-speaking elites.
27:01Okay, do you know, I agree with him.
27:03I think that the privileges, that the privileged people should give up their privileges.
27:09I think it is outrageous that Indian ministers and MPs live on land that is worth 150 crores an acre,
27:18and they haven't been able to provide urban, affordable housing.
27:22It is outrageous. That is privilege.
27:25Okay, security. Talk about security.
27:28Rashtrapati Bhavan sits on 300 acres.
27:31Why can't all the ministerial bungalows, if you want to give it to them?
27:35It doesn't happen in other democracies.
27:37In other democracies, in America, I think it's only the president and the vice president.
27:44I'm not even sure the vice president is given government accommodation.
27:48In what we copied was China and the Soviet Union,
27:52you know, where the officials lived in the Kremlin and in Jiangnan High, etc.,
27:59and everybody else lived, you know, why are we paying?
28:03Why are taxpayers... What I'm saying to you is, let's start a movement against all this.
28:09All the guys that are living in privilege at taxpayers' expense, they should give it up.
28:16Why is there... Why should it only be the Jimkhana Club?
28:20Why not move every MP into the Akbar Hotel, if you want to give them accommodation?
28:26Well, why do we have all this?
28:29The whole of Latians Delhi is leasehold.
28:32And on it sit government officers and ministers and MPs,
28:39and some of them are so happy with that accommodation
28:42that when they want to keep the house,
28:46they deliberately bring in one of their children or their wives to, you know, become MPs.
28:53So, you know, what about the privilege of parliament being a little diner's club?
28:59How many people can get into parliament if you're not related to a political family?
29:03Let's open the box.
29:05It's a huge Pandora's box that we're going to open up.
29:09And I actually am very disappointed with Modi
29:12for not having thrown these people out of Latians Delhi long ago.
29:17You're saying get rid of all the ministerial bungalows,
29:20get rid of all these...
29:21Make it all commercial.
29:25I can tell you, in the United States,
29:27many of their top representatives live in smaller, in regular apartments.
29:32They rent their own apartments.
29:33You know, they don't make...
29:35Do you know that to live in Latians Delhi,
29:39we have political families, I don't want to name them,
29:42who bring in their sons, their daughters,
29:44somebody's in the Rajasava, somebody's in the...
29:46They're all there for the house.
29:48I know movie stars who refuse to give up the house, you know.
29:52So, why don't we widen the debate?
29:55Let's talk about who the really...
29:57Okay.
29:58That's an interesting way.
29:59Let's widen the debate.
30:00Satyapal Jain, both you and Rakhi Singh have been MPs.
30:03Satyapal, you want to go first?
30:05Then, Tablin Singh is saying,
30:07let's then open up the Pandora's box.
30:09Let's also get rid of all these large landscape, garden, bungalows of Delhi.
30:14Get rid of everything.
30:15You're using the Delhi, Jimkhana.
30:17The Prime Minister himself is going to move into a large residence,
30:20Prime Minister's residence.
30:22Rashtrapadi Bhavan is 300 acres.
30:24Let's get rid of all of it.
30:28Sir, so far as the issue of all this is concerned,
30:30I personally feel, let's make a start.
30:33First, let them hand over the Jimkhana Club to the Government of India
30:35or to Delhi Government, wherever it is.
30:37Let them start a moment.
30:39I am ready to...
30:40Do you support her idea?
30:42Do you support her idea that ministers also should not live in these large houses?
30:46Let there be a consensus among all the political parties about it.
30:50I am with her.
30:51Let's have a discussion.
30:52You have a debate on the next day.
30:53All chief ministers, all leaders, all MPs involve all political parties.
30:58Come to a consensus.
30:59I am with you.
31:00No problem.
31:01Okay.
31:01Rakhi Sina.
31:03Okay.
31:03Come to a consensus.
31:04I take your...
31:05Okay.
31:05Come to a consensus.
31:06Rakhi Sina.
31:07Will you support it?
31:08Why do you need these mantris and MPs in these large houses?
31:13Pay commercial rent?
31:14No, I think Tablin Singh is unaware of the...
31:16No, Tablin Singh is unaware of the latest developments.
31:20You should go and see Brahmaputra, Ganga, Gomti.
31:24So, the Bangalos are being replaced by apartments.
31:28And as far as Indian member of parliament and ministers are concerned, apart from any political,
31:33across any political party where the Congress party is ruling or the BJP is ruling, average
31:37member of parliament meets more than 100 people every day.
31:41Different kind of people.
31:42Someone's hospitalization, someone's reservation, someone's transfer, someone's posting.
31:47We serve the people.
31:49Anybody comes to a member of parliament, mostly members of parliament, they are well-received,
31:53served, and we are less paid.
31:55I am not pleading that I am being a member of parliament.
31:58I realize that.
32:00One lakh salary.
32:01And every day, 50 people, 60 people comes.
32:03Even I am ex-MP, more than 40 people come.
32:06I can't say that I am not a member of parliament.
32:08So, kindly, don't degrade the democracy by comparing the member of parliament's residents
32:12with the club.
32:13I don't believe it.
32:13Member of parliament is a public leader who serves the common people.
32:16Okay, you are saying.
32:17You are saying.
32:18Don't compare.
32:19Last, last, last, last point.
32:21Yes, yes, last, complete, complete.
32:22Last point.
32:23Razdeep, Razdeep.
32:24Yes.
32:24Razdeep, Razdeep.
32:25Yes.
32:26You see, see, after Modiji came into power, what was, what has been his priority?
32:3110 crore toilets.
32:32Tablin should realize this, being a woman.
32:35How the women of the country suffered before pre-Modi era.
32:38What's that, God, did you all guess?
32:3980 crore people are getting foods.
32:41So, you are making the common people the part of the republic.
32:45Republic is expending.
32:47The Padmeabad, it is going to the commoners.
32:491% of India.
32:51Who are we?
32:52Inequality.
32:52Sir, sir, nobody doubts the welfare infrastructure.
32:55Sir, sir, we are mixing issues.
32:57No one, just a minute, sir.
32:58No one doubts the welfare infrastructure that the government is trying to put in place.
33:02Inequality is continuing to grow.
33:041% of this country population has 40% of the wealth.
33:07Nothing has been done to stop.
33:09Raj, instead, you have more cronies coming up.
33:14Rajdeep, it is not the 10 years which created 1% people.
33:18It is in 10 years, we have reached to the 10 crore toilets.
33:2180 crore people are getting foods.
33:23Then you say the freebie.
33:2480 crore people who are needing the people.
33:26So, the benefits of the republic must go to the common people.
33:29That is the philosophy of Narendra Modi.
33:31We are following by conviction.
33:33It is not the matter of opposition or communism.
33:35It is the philosophy of Narendra Modi.
33:38Okay.
33:38The philosophy of Modi.
33:39Yes, Major Prasad, you want to respond.
33:42That the attempt is being made to create a more egalitarian society.
33:46This is one step towards it.
33:47I have nothing to say about the political aspect of the thing.
33:52I am only speaking for the club and would like to enlighten our audience here.
33:57that this land was purchased by members of the club at the price of Rs. 5,460 over 100 years
34:07ago.
34:08The entire labor, everything that the club is today was the contribution of members and a couple of...
34:17Would the club be ready to pay market rent?
34:19Major Prasad, today would you be ready to pay market rent, commercial rent?
34:25We have not purchased, not purchased, lease.
34:29We purchased it.
34:31Would you be able to pay market rent?
34:36This land was purchased for Rs. 5,460.
34:42Please, believe me because I have been a member of the management committee and I am aware of this fact.
34:48And if you would like to see the receipt, do visit the club.
34:51I will show you the receipt.
34:52Yeah, but today, in today's day, it costs several hundred crores.
34:56Sir, the land on which it is costs several hundred crores.
34:59Would the club be willing to see it as a pure commercial property?
35:02But let me turn to another question.
35:04Are clubs, Gymkhana's, much needed social spaces?
35:08And importantly, is this the new elite replacing the old elite?
35:12And, you know, that's a point which keeps coming up, Pawan Verma.
35:16And you've written about it.
35:17And we are seeing a rotation of elites.
35:20You had the old elite, which was English-speaking, grew up in the Nehruvian era.
35:24Many believe their time is up.
35:26Now you've got a new elite emerging.
35:28I keep calling them the billionaire Raj.
35:30Tavleen Singh says they are the ones who now populate our five-star hotels.
35:34Should this be seen as a battle of one elite versus the other?
35:38Or Narendra Modi trying to teach, let's say, the Macaulian, English-speaking, put them in their place.
35:42They are the ones who inhabit these clubs, be it in Kolkata, be it in Mumbai, Madras.
35:48These were all old colonial clubs.
35:50The new elite is replacing the old one.
35:51And the new elites' rules are different to the old ones.
35:58Now, Rajdeep, in this country, there have always existed parallel elites.
36:04And somehow or the other, at the cost of perhaps much greater benefit to the ordinary Indian citizen,
36:12all of them have carved out spaces which are disproportionate to their actual contribution to society.
36:18That's the truth of it.
36:20And that's why I've written about it.
36:22And I think there is an introspection that needs to be done by all elites, including that of Jim Khanatla.
36:28I want to make the point that if public good is the goal, and there seems to be a consensus
36:34on this issue,
36:35Mr. Jainz agreed to it.
36:37Let there be a movement.
36:39Let us see how many ministers who now live on Lutyens' bungalows,
36:44and I've been a member of parliament myself.
36:46I had a house allocated to me on Amrita Shergilmark.
36:50I didn't shift to it, but I had a house.
36:52Let us see how many ministers, members of parliament,
36:57and others who belong to the privileged ruling class
37:02are willing to give up these facilities or to reduce them.
37:07If you meet 40 members of your constituency, you need space.
37:12But 10, where the British prime minister lives,
37:20that would fit into the one-fourth portion of the house of a minister of state in the government of
37:26India.
37:27It's not that they don't have constituents.
37:30So if there is a consensus today that let this become the beginning of an overall change towards how we
37:37view what is best for public good,
37:39So would you, for example, even say Rashtrapati Bhavan is no longer to be on 300 acres?
37:45Are you saying Rashtrapati Bhavan is no longer on 300 acres for one occupant and his family?
37:54Rajdeep, I have been a press secretary to two presidents of India.
37:58The Rashtrapati Bhavan stands for a certain ceremonial value which belongs to the Mahamahim Rashtrapati.
38:05But if you are asking me, if all those 300 acres are required for her to maintain the very legitimate
38:13sanctity and high placement of her office,
38:16I think there can be a debate on that also, because it is the largest palace in the world.
38:26And usually, even ceremonial heads of state, including that in the United States of America, live in smaller homes.
38:36Or even if their palace is not as big.
38:39So you can take a view.
38:41In fact, Mahatma Gandhi said that he would like, after independence, for Rashtrapati Bhavan to become a hospital.
38:47But it did not.
38:49We had Dr. Rajen Prasad move in there.
38:51And the second largest house in Delhi was the Flagstaff house where the Prime Minister of India moved in.
38:59And we also have the habit of converting old prime ministerial residences into memorials,
39:03which the current Prime Minister has put an end to.
39:06But I don't know what happens in the future.
39:07And we also have a situation where those who retire from those high posts for reasons of security are given
39:14type-aid bungalows in Lutians, Delhi.
39:16So, as I said, elites perpetuate themselves.
39:19And there are parallel elites of politics, of wealth, of bureaucracy.
39:24Now, if you are making a movement inspired by the Prime Minister's egalitarian vision,
39:32which I support, which Rakesh Sina spoke about, let's start a movement.
39:37And if in that, the beginning is the Gymkhana Club, so be it.
39:42But I'm afraid sometimes, while the soft target is taken, the rest is never done.
39:47Okay.
39:47And I don't want, and therefore I appeal to the government to reconsider the decision.
39:52Because at least put a process of discussion, greater transparency.
39:57I take your point.
39:58It can't be a firman overnight.
40:00But, you know, interestingly, Satyapal Jain, you raised your finger.
40:03I just want to give an example in Bombay, where I am a member of a particular club,
40:07where the club, just when its lease was about to expire,
40:11the concerned municipal officials threatened to not to renew the lease.
40:17What happened next?
40:17All the IAS IPS officers ensured they got membership there.
40:21And the club welcomed them.
40:23And that's how it survived.
40:24Now, my point is, the IAS IPS officers, the elite there in Maharashtra,
40:28all wanted to be members of the club.
40:30Now, in fact, the previous, the Shinde government in Maharashtra
40:34had opened up membership in the Willingdon Club also.
40:36They want to give membership to IAS IPS officers.
40:39All of them want to be members of the club.
40:42And at the same time, you target the club.
40:44All IAS IPS officers will line up if tomorrow a membership was open for the Delhi gym.
40:49That's the reality.
40:52I'd like to make three submissions.
40:54Number one, let's not compare the Raspati Bhavan, Pradhan Mantri, etc. with the Gymkhana Club.
41:00The President of India represents the entire ethos of the country,
41:05the unity and integrity of the country.
41:06So, we should not bring Raspati Bhavan, Pradhan Mantri, Nivas, etc. into the controversy in the Gymkhana Club.
41:12Secondly, after taking over in 2014, Shri Narendra Modi ji has made many reforms,
41:18has taken a number of steps for the upliftment of the common men, women, laborers, farmers and all that.
41:25And this moment is going on.
41:27Third, you said now that IAS officers, IAS officers,
41:32they are trying to take the membership of the clubs and all that.
41:35May I ask you, even this Gymkhana Club,
41:39have there any soldier a member of the club?
41:41Have there any PN as a member of the club?
41:43Have there any normal farmer as a member of the club?
41:46Has there any son of a shopkeeper a member of the club?
41:49They may be having IAS officers,
41:51but has there any driver, their gunman, their relatives a member of the club?
41:56What else is elite?
41:57If you confine the membership only to the selected few,
42:01that itself becomes the elite.
42:02Therefore, I will once again request, time has come.
42:06When the elite of this country, if there is an elite,
42:08they should shun their rights and privileges of their own.
42:12They should understand and realize the gravity of the problem that a common man is facing.
42:17This lease is being canceled, there is a hue and cry.
42:19Go to the colonies, go to the slum areas where houses are demolished,
42:23the buildings were demolished.
42:24I have heard the question of, where was the question of socializing there?
42:28The 50% of Delhi is a slum, let's do something about it.
42:31Let's start a national debate.
42:32I agree with Mr. Verma and other people.
42:34Give me 30 seconds.
42:35Let there be a national debate on it.
42:36Okay.
42:37How many rights can be given to a section of the society
42:39at the cost of the common man, a poor man, a laborer?
42:43Sir, is it one versus the other?
42:46You see, if the Delhi Jimkhana lands were being taken over,
42:49any Jimkhana then being handed over to the peons,
42:52the guards, the jawans for their housing,
42:55I don't think many people would object at all.
42:58Major Prasad, would you object?
42:59If tomorrow, where you are lying in the 2070s,
43:02what will be given for housing?
43:04Go to the side.
43:04Okay, let me be for the common man to decide what he has to be put.
43:07I would like to question the gentleman that I hear.
43:09Yes.
43:10That has any of this class of people ever applied for membership of this club?
43:16No.
43:17I know it.
43:17Sir, they cannot afford the type of people sitting there.
43:20How can a PM sit with an IS officer?
43:22You won't allow him even to enter, to have water on your table.
43:26You can't have it both ways.
43:27You apply for membership.
43:28Sir, you are not going to give them membership.
43:31Sir, you are not going to give them membership.
43:33That is true there.
43:34Satyapal is right.
43:35But my…
43:36Sir, just a minute.
43:37My point, Major Prasad,
43:38Major Prasad, if tomorrow the government says
43:40we are giving it for low-cost housing,
43:42will the club agree?
43:44We are taking over the land for low-cost housing
43:46for the underprivileged.
43:48Would the club agree?
43:50If the government today decides to
43:53abolish the entire heritage of this Luton City,
43:58yes, why not have…
44:00Why not have anybody?
44:02You have low-cost housing society there.
44:04Why not?
44:05Okay.
44:06Satyapal cannot dictate the government to do what they have to do.
44:09Okay.
44:09Okay.
44:09We will take a decision in the interest of the country.
44:27Satyapal, one minute.
44:27One minute.
44:28Hang on.
44:28Yes.
44:29All right?
44:29Now, there is nobody more privileged
44:32than the politician and the bureaucrat in India.
44:35Look how they are living.
44:38Why…
44:38How dare they live the way they do
44:41when they can't give housing to the ordinary Indian?
44:45So, please, let's clarify what I said.
44:49I didn't say…
44:49One minute.
44:50Hang on.
44:51Yeah, go ahead.
44:52The point is, if we're talking about privilege,
44:54that's what I'm saying,
44:55that, you know, you've opened a Pandora's box.
44:58Now, let's see.
45:00Let's give…
45:01Rakesh, stop raising your finger and say,
45:03this living in…
45:05You know, we need 20…
45:06We meet 20 people a day.
45:07As Pavan pointed out,
45:09the Prime Minister of Britain meets constituents.
45:13The American president…
45:15Why is it only in India that we have to pay,
45:18taxpayers pay for politicians to live like princes
45:21and you can't afford to create enough low-cost housing in us…
45:25Give me 30 seconds.
45:2630 seconds.
45:28You know, it's not the fault of the Jimkhana Club
45:31that you haven't been able to do those things.
45:33It's the fault of the political leaders.
45:35And there is a time to show leadership.
45:38And this is the time,
45:40instead of picking on a little club,
45:42show leadership.
45:43Give up your privileges.
45:45Okay, interesting.
45:48Rajesh Sina, will you give up…
45:49Will your fellow MPs or your…
45:51You're an ex-MP.
45:52Will your fellow MPs ever give up…
45:53You know, you're saying we have built Brahmaputra.
45:56These are now apartments.
45:57They're not the big bungalows.
45:58The truth is,
45:59a number of our judges and bureaucrats
46:04and politicians live still.
46:06Ministers, two-time MPs,
46:08all live in bungalows.
46:09Are they willing to give it up
46:11and say we'll have low-cost housing there?
46:14That is the real revolution.
46:15That will be the social philosophy.
46:17I'm really…
46:19I'm…
46:20Rajdeep really surprised.
46:21Tablin Singh is a very enlightened journalist
46:24and intellectual.
46:25She's unaware of that,
46:26how the ministries have been consolidated
46:28in Kartabya Bhavan.
46:29The prime minister office has shifted.
46:31So…
46:32Don't change the subject.
46:33No, no, let me…
46:34Let me complete.
46:36No, don't change the subject.
46:38Oh, let me complete.
46:38I will let you complete
46:39if you keep to the subject.
46:40Don't, don't…
46:41Yeah, okay.
46:41In toilets and this, that and the other.
46:43Okay, he's not…
46:44He's saying Kartabya Bhavan,
46:46they've tried to rationalize government offices.
46:48No, no, let me…
46:49Rajesh Sina, the specific question was
46:52replacing ministerial bungalows.
46:54You want to strike at the elite,
46:55they are the real elite.
46:57The politicians, the bureaucrats are the real elite.
46:59Not a Gymkhana where people are playing tennis.
47:02No, no, no.
47:03You can't compare the ministerial bungalow
47:05with the Gymkhana.
47:06Ministers have so many responsibilities.
47:08We say your wife is a member of parliament.
47:11We know how we meet the people.
47:14She hasn't taken a house at all.
47:17No, no.
47:18It's not a question she has not taken
47:20or I have taken.
47:20This is not the question.
47:21The question is that our 24 hours is for the people.
47:25At least in the Narendra Modi era,
47:27no member of parliament belonging to BJP
47:29is situated in Delhi.
47:31We have to run across the country.
47:33We have to organize the Khele Mahsa.
47:35We have to organize different programs for the people.
47:37We are enlightening the people.
47:38Sir, have you seen the lakhs of rupees
47:39that are being spent on renovating ministerial bungalows?
47:43You know better than how the kind…
47:45I saw ministerial bungalow where water is running
47:47right through the day.
47:49In a country of water scarcity,
47:50the minister has built a fountain
47:52in the middle of his bungalow.
47:56Under Modi regime,
47:57there is a sunset era
47:58of the colonial feudal legacies
48:00and the institutions.
48:01There is a Modi minister
48:02who has a fountain running
48:03in the middle of his house
48:06in an old heritage building.
48:08They are remodeling it,
48:09renovating it.
48:10That's okay.
48:13I'm telling you that
48:14member of parliament
48:15has a lot of work
48:16and public goods to do.
48:17So he puts up a fountain
48:19in the middle of the house.
48:19We know how to deal with the people.
48:2124 hours, 365 days
48:23are dedicated to the people,
48:24not our family.
48:25Exceptions are not the rules.
48:27Exceptions are not the rules.
48:28Okay, exceptions are not the rules.
48:2990% members of parliament
48:29are dedicated to the common people
48:31and we work for the common people.
48:32Okay, you work for the common people.
48:34That's a larger good and the public good.
48:35Can I go back?
48:35The greatest number
48:36is the philosophy of Narendra Modi government.
48:38You said that
48:38but let me come to the final question.
48:40Therefore, club culture
48:41is a part of a Macaulay mindset.
48:43The fact that we could go
48:44Pawan Varma to Kolkata
48:46and go to the Calcutta club
48:48and have chicken sandwiches
48:52or the Bombay Gymkhana
48:53and we'll play a game of rugby
48:55and then have a drink afterwards.
48:57Is this part of the old colonial legacy?
48:59Angres chale gaye,
49:00apni aula chod gaye.
49:01That the Macaulay mindset
49:02still lives on
49:03and therefore the club culture
49:05becomes the soft target
49:06because it represents
49:07that old Macaulay mindset
49:09and does that need to change
49:10like tomorrow?
49:13And can it change?
49:15Well, Rajdeep,
49:16I'll be honest with you.
49:18I'll be honest with you.
49:20One of the consequences
49:21of colonial rule
49:23is not your physical subjugation.
49:26It is the colonization of your mind.
49:28And it happens to a lot
49:30of post-colonial societies
49:31that political freedom comes first
49:35and cultural emancipation
49:37takes longer.
49:38The fact that we are,
49:40I mean,
49:40this is an English-based program,
49:42but for a long time
49:43there was a sense
49:44of inferiority complex
49:46attached to those
49:47who could not speak English
49:48with the fluent accent
49:50and with that finicity.
49:53And that is the truth of it.
49:55A lot of people
49:56know nothing about
49:57our culture,
49:58our origins,
49:59and I'm not talking
50:00of being chauvinist
50:01or xenophobic.
50:03The fact of the matter
50:04is our educational curriculums
50:06had no touch in reality
50:08with our own heritage,
50:10our own history.
50:11And to that extent,
50:12yes,
50:13the Macaulay legacy
50:14still continued
50:15for a very long time.
50:17And it's time,
50:18I will say,
50:19that for clubs also,
50:20and I have given examples.
50:23At Tully,
50:24the last time I went,
50:25I was stopped
50:25in a formal dress
50:27of a pajama kurta
50:30with closed sandals
50:32just because
50:32it doesn't conform
50:33to what the British
50:34left as the rules
50:35for the club.
50:36And in a country like ours,
50:37there was a lady
50:38who came from the northeast
50:39who was thrown out
50:41of one of the clubs
50:42because her dress,
50:43which was formal
50:44by her standards,
50:45did not conform
50:46to the club's
50:47very narrow definitions
50:48of propriety.
50:49We need to change.
50:51We should change.
50:54But should we throw
50:55the baby out
50:56with the bathwater
50:57is the question.
50:58And I feel that
50:59there should be
50:59a dialogue with the clubs.
51:01I feel that
51:02by saying that
51:03tomorrow,
51:04in 48 hours,
51:05you cease to exist
51:06is not the answer.
51:08Societies evolve
51:09through dialogue.
51:10Okay.
51:11And let there be
51:11greater sense of dialogue.
51:13Are you ready?
51:13Are you ready,
51:14Major?
51:14And transparency
51:14to resolve this issue.
51:15Are you ready,
51:16Major Prasad,
51:17for a dialogue,
51:18for change,
51:19the club culture
51:20of having a gin and tonic,
51:21of playing a game
51:22of sport,
51:23all, you know,
51:24I love sport,
51:26I believe sport
51:27should be played,
51:27encouraged.
51:28But at the same time,
51:29do you believe
51:30some change is needed
51:31also in the club culture?
51:32You can't wear sandals
51:34to the bar,
51:35all of that
51:35needs to change or not?
51:37Well,
51:39look,
51:40I mean,
51:40the bar and all
51:41is this subsidiary.
51:43The main focus
51:44for a sportsman
51:45is to go and play.
51:46And I remember,
51:47I could not afford
51:48to go to the bar
51:49every day
51:50because I had
51:51a very meager salary
51:52when I became
51:53a member of this club
51:54in 1972.
51:55So,
51:55I played my tennis
51:56or I played my squash
51:58and sometimes
51:59played low,
52:00very,
52:00very low stake bridge
52:02and that's it
52:03and I came home
52:04for my dinner.
52:05So,
52:06this business of saying
52:07that goes to club
52:09for a drink
52:09and...
52:10So,
52:10you're saying
52:11that's caricaturing
52:13the club,
52:13that's stereotyping it.
52:14Let me tell you one thing.
52:15Don't caricat...
52:16Don't call of just about...
52:20On daily basis,
52:22it's about 250 to 300 people
52:24who come there
52:25and play their game,
52:27have a little wash
52:28or whatever
52:29or a shower,
52:31go to the bridge room
52:32or something
52:32and maybe
52:33go to the bar
52:34for a drink
52:35that come home.
52:37But,
52:37it is the heritage.
52:40It is our lifeline.
52:42Our now
52:42large number
52:44of old members
52:45who come there
52:46in the morning,
52:47they go to the library.
52:48We have a very
52:49well-equipped library.
52:51We have got
52:52sporting facilities.
52:53We have...
52:54You know,
52:54we offer so much
52:55to members.
52:58Sir,
52:58I've run out of time.
52:59You're saying...
53:00I've run out of time.
53:01You're saying...
53:02I take your point.
53:03My main focus
53:03is not the heritage.
53:04I take your point,
53:05sir.
53:05You're saying
53:05it's part of heritage.
53:07You know,
53:07Satyapal Jain,
53:08are we throwing out
53:09with the baby
53:10with the bathwater?
53:11At the end of the day,
53:11the clubs are part
53:12of a culture
53:13of a city.
53:13A city is also
53:14defined by social spaces
53:16across the world.
53:17You know,
53:18it seems that
53:18there are resentments
53:21that the new guard
53:22is resentful
53:23that the old order
53:24has these clubs
53:25where they can go
53:25and play.
53:26Is there resentment
53:27and anger
53:27against these people?
53:29Let us see
53:30the resentment
53:30and anger
53:31among the common
53:32masses also.
53:33Indian constitution
53:34said,
53:34preamble said,
53:35we have to ensure
53:36justice,
53:37social and economic
53:38to all citizens.
53:39We,
53:39the people of India,
53:40some people,
53:41thousands,
53:42maybe two,
53:42three,
53:43four legs
53:43in the entire country
53:44cannot sit
53:46and enjoy privileges
53:47at the cost
53:47of the common men.
53:48Okay.
53:49Modi ji ka nara,
53:50sabka saad,
53:50sabka vikas,
53:51and if you have to
53:52uplift the common men,
53:54these people,
53:55with all respect,
53:55I am saying,
53:56full sense of responsibility.
53:57We have to take over
53:58the jimkhanakla.
54:00Surrender their rights
54:01and let there be
54:02a national debate
54:02on all these issues.
54:04Okay.
54:04Somewhere CM out,
54:05which is what we've,
54:06we've tried to kick off
54:07that national debate.
54:08Tableen Singh,
54:09let me give you 30 seconds.
54:11Do you actually believe that?
54:20There should be a national debate
54:27delighted that we've opened
54:29a Pandora's box.
54:31Let everybody give up
54:33their privileges
54:34for the common man,
54:35for the common good.
54:36In the ministerial bungalows,
54:39let's start making
54:40low-cost housing,
54:41affordable housing.
54:42What about that, sir?
54:44Okay.
54:44What about entire judges,
54:46et cetera,
54:46living in Latians, Delhi?
54:47I'm a child of Latians, Delhi.
54:49So don't, Rakesh Sena,
54:51tell me that people
54:53are living in little apartments.
54:54For a start,
54:55they don't need,
54:56they should pay rent
54:57from their salaries
54:59and not expect taxpayers
55:01to pay for them to live.
55:03So that's my final point.
55:04Open the Pandora's box.
55:06Great.
55:07Okay.
55:07We've opened the Pandora's box
55:08on the show today.
55:10I'm glad that we've had
55:1130 seconds.
55:12Okay.
55:1320 seconds.
55:14Not 30, 20.
55:15He changed the subject
55:15to toilets or something.
55:17Talk on the subject.
55:18You know,
55:19since 2000,
55:21yes,
55:22since 2014,
55:24the elitism
55:24has been eroded
55:26because you see
55:27the Lalbatti ki gari chalna
55:29ho horn bajana.
55:321700 colonial rules
55:33have been abolished.
55:34So egalitarian idea,
55:39egalitarian idea,
55:40egalitarian idea.
55:41Now you leave that
55:42in 10 years.
55:43India has become
55:46a billionaire Raj.
55:47I'll leave it there.
55:48I've heard all the sides
55:49and it's good to have
55:50kick-started this debate
55:51and maybe opened a bit
55:53of a Pandora's box.
55:54You, the viewer,
55:55need to decide.
55:56Do we need to do away
55:57with the club,
55:58jimkhana culture
55:59or do you believe it's an important
56:01part of our heritage?
56:03Do we need to do away
56:04with these privileges
56:06or do you believe
56:07they are an essential part
56:08of our country's
56:10and city's landscape?
56:12Let's leave it there.
56:13The old elite
56:13versus the new elite
56:15and plenty more questions
56:16will continue
56:17to blow in the wind.
56:18Thanks for watching.
56:19Stay well,
56:20stay safe,
56:21Jai Hind,
56:21Namaskar.
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